Mike Plemmons saga - warning (if interested)

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Posted By: Keith O'Leary

There was a post about this card a while back on the board by Mike W (Network54 userid TheKid41). I want to make sure everyone knows he should not be confused with Mike Plemmons.

1/21/05 - Listed an N162 Kelly for $1400. Mike Plemmons showed an immediate interest,
but didn't have the money. He asked if I could do any better. I told him I was more
interested in trading it, but if someone had given me the $1400, I would sell. He
told me he once had to sell the one he had and loved because of a financial difficulty
and had regretted selling it ever since. He'd been looking for an affordable one for a
long time and mine was just that. I told him to check back with me from time to time
as I was in no hurry to sell and hopefully he could come up with the money.

After several checks to see if I still had it between 1/21/05 and 4/29/05:

4/29/05 - Email from Mike - "Keith- Was curious to know if you still had the n162 kelly
for sale. I am in the process of selling off a big chunk of my collection so that I
can afford it. I thought that I had heard from someone that you had lowered your price
on it. Please let me know if you still have it or not, so that I know whether or not
to continue selling off my cards. If you do, I'd be willing to put down a down payment
on it so that you would hold it for me. mike". I told him to stay in touch.

5/16/05 - "keith- I think that 1200 is a pretty decent price for the kelly, and I would
love to get it at that. I would need to sell some cards on ebay first though to cover it.
Didnt know how long or even if you would be willing to hold the kelly for me. I am
starting to build my collection back up (after selling almost the whole thing last year
due to financial problems) and most of what I now own is low to mid grade. Some of the
cards I plan on selling though are t205s- including 2 cobbs, both graded GAI 1.5, a t206
hindu mathewson white cap graded sgc 10, t200 fatima pittsburgh sgc 10, and some other
mixed stuff. mike"

5/17/05 - "Keith-Will take the kelly for 1200 if you can hold it for me. It will take
me about a month to list the cards on ebay and get all of the cash in for you. Let me
know if that is alright- if not, will work something else out with you instead if you
need the money sooner. hope to hear back from you soon. thanks keith- really mean
that mike"

5/17/05 - "Hi Mike, Its as good as yours. I have no trouble sending it to you if you
wanna take a look at it? Otherwise....if anyone asks, its sold and its staying put in
my safe until I hear from you. Thanks much, heres my address whenever you wanna use it.

Keith O'Leary
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

If you want to see it, email back your postal address and I'll be able to send it out
to you Saturday. Regards, thanks, Keith"

5/17/05 - "Keith-If you feel comfortable enough to go ahead and send the card, please
feel free to do so. I am extremely reputable, and have dealt with several people from
the forum in the past if you need references. In fact, I am working on deals with both
ben fisher and lee behrens as we speak. Anyway- just please know that I truly do
appreciate the deal on the kelly and your willingness to help me in getting it. I owned
one a while back, and although it was in really poor shape- I still regret ever selling
it. I know that this one will hold a permanent spot in my collection. thank you so
much keith. mike
if you do decide to go ahead and the send the n162 kelly- here is my address, just please
let me know before you send it so that I can be on the lookout for it."

MIKE PLEMMONS
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXX

5/26/05 - "Keith- Picked up the kelly yesterday. Its a really wonderful card. I am
doing scans and writing descriptions for my auctions as we speak. hopefully will get
those up this weekend so can get you some money as soon as possible. Wanted to thank
you again keith- both for the deal on the kelly and for your trust in me. mike"

7/13/05 - "Good morning Mike, Just checking on the status of our N162 Kelly transaction.
have a good day and rest of the week, best regards, Keith"

7/13/05 - "Keith- I swear I havent forgotten about you. I had some minor health problems
recently, and have been dealing with that lately. I had a heart ablation performed last
week, and am just now getting back to where I was before I started having problems. I
am about to list some more cards this week on ebay, and I wanted to paypal you the money
I get from those as soon as it comes in. Please let me know if that is ok. I truly am
sorry that this transaction has been drawn out this long, it was never my intention to do
so. mike"

7/13/05 - "Not a problem Mike, none at all. Just wanted to touch base is all. Glad you're
on the mend also, take it slow and easy. A no to PayPal (they take a cut). Have a good
day and rest of the week, best regards, Keith"

7/26/05 - "Mike, wondering how the auctions went. regards, Keith"

7/30/05 - "Mike, I get concerned when I don't get any responses to my emails. Is
everything OK? Regards, Keith"

8/1/05 - "Good morning Mike, When I mailed you my N162 Kelly, I was assuming this transaction
would be completed after a couple of weeks as well as giving you a chance to inspect my card.
Its now been a couple of months and all things considered (your health problems etc), I think its
probably best if I hold my Kelly until you get you health concerns behind you. Its just taking
a little longer than I had originally anticipated. If you're still interested in it, we can
certainly work something out. Please mail it back to me insured at your earliest convenience.
best regards,

Keith O'Leary
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

PS - please email me so I know you're at least getting my emails"

8/3/05 - Was able to get his phone #. Called and left a message on his answering machine to
call me ASAP.

8/4/05 - Called again, no answer.

8/4/05 - Mike told me in a previous email he had dealings with Ben F and Lee B. Emailed
them both to get their thoughts.

8/5/05 - Sent snail mail letter -

"Mike, I’ve been unable to reach you by email for weeks.

May 24th, I sent you my N162 Kelly in good faith. You lead me to believe this transaction
would be settled in several weeks (after your ebay auction was over at the end of May,
then again in July).

During these months, you’ve been in contact with me only after I've initiated it. Since our
last correspondence in July, I've gotten no response at all from my emails to you. I’m
becoming increasingly uncomfortable without my card or payment for it. I’d feel better if
you sent me my Kelly back at your first possible convenience. If you still have an interest
in it, I’ll be glad continuing to hold it for you, just let me know.

Keith O’Leary
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Please email me or call at

Snoopy525@Earthlink.net (home)
OLeary@Co.Lancaster.PA.US 717 293 7223 (work)

when you receive this letter so I know I’ve gotten in touch with you.

Thanks, regards, Keith"

8/5/05 - Got an email from him. "Keith-
Sorry havent been able to get back in touch with you. I just got back out of the hospital
for the second time, this time was to have a stint placed in my heart for a valve blockage.
My dad said that you called and left a message, so I knew that I needed to get in touch with you.
I will get my fiancee to take the kelly to the post office on monday to mail that back to you.
I was hoping to get more money in by now, to have the whole thing paid for, but things have been
really difficult for me. I have half of the money for it already, and with what I had lined up
for my next group of auctions- should take care of the rest as soon as I get back up to speed
where I can list some things. if you need to reach me, I am resting at my fiancee's
house XXX-XXX-XXXX

8/15/05 - Called the girlfriend's house. Left a message on the answering machine.

8/17/05 - Called his parents house again informing him that if I didn't hear from him or
get my card back in the mail within a week, I will assume hes ripping me off to the tune of
$1200 and I will act accordingly (I emailed him as well).

8/18/05 - "Keith-I've already mailed the kelly back out, and it should be on its way to you.
Someone was supposed to buy around $700 worth of cards from me last week, and begged me to
wait on them- I was hoping to send you the $1200 instead of the kelly, so I agreed to wait
on them. Long story short- they changed their mind, and I was forced to mail out the kelly
yesterday, so you should receive it in 2 or 3 days. I should've had better communication
with you about all of this, and from now on, I will. I will gladly send you some money or
cards if in exchange you will hold the kelly for me until I can pay you the full amount.
You've been 100% trusting in this deal, and I appreciate that. Everything was just really
bad timing on my part- both financially and with my health. I sincerely do apologize for
everything keith, it was never my intention to have this thing drawn out the way it has
been. Hopefully you will not hold this against me. I sincerely hope that we can both
wind up happy with this transaction."

8/23/05 - Emailed again asking for a tracking number. No response.

9/2/05 - Sent a registered letter to his house informing him that I plan on taking any
recourse available to me.

9/6/05 - letter signed for and received by Mike Plemmons.

I know of one other Network54 member that has been taken by Mike also. If he wants to
speak to that transaction, thats up to him, I won't speak for him. Can anyone offer any
help on how to get this card back? Heres the card in question in case anyone runs into it.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Wow.

The guy gave himself a heart attack with all of the guilt he felt over stealing your card.

Poetic Justice?

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Good luck on the deal Keith,hopefully this will encourage him to pay but you know the old saying "When life gives you Plemmons,make Plemmons pay(up front that is)"

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Posted By: leon

That sure is a long drawn out story. I just don't get folks going into complete disarray over cards. It sounds like this particular deal gave him a heart attack. This could have been a friggin' novel. I think you were more than lenient Keith. This guy sounds like a hypocondriac, liar, thief or all of the above........good luck and keep us informed. regards

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Damn John... that's really good for this early in the morning!!!!

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Thanks Hal,i thought it was better than saying Keith shouldve been O'Leary about sending cards out before getting money,but i passed on that.Not some of my best work but its a good start to a day. If youll check the wonkaticket email thread youll notice i also got him good,tho undeserved.

Hopefully i can actually add something informational to the board today,ill try after work

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I will never again look at the moon without wondering if maybe that is someone shining the "Cheesecake Signal"!!

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Posted By: Mike

Thanks for making sure I was not confused with Mr. Plemmens. It was important to me not to get wrapped up in any malpractice.
Keith, when you first told me about this, I was really hoping you would get your card back. I felt that it could still happen. I would love to know what is going on through this man's head.

I had a 1954 Duke Snider when I was in high school (about 12 years ago or so). It was my oldest card, and my pride and joy at the time. I had a friend over and showed it to him. After he left I noticed it was gone. I confronted him the next day about it and he said "oh yeah, I think it got confused with my cards. Here it is". I knew he was lying, but I got my card back. It was a crappy feeling though. I have had other small cards stolen that I never got back later on. Every time I hear about your Kelly, I feel like I did the night I didn't have my Snider.

still have my fingers crossed for you.


Mike W

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Posted By: Paul Lehr

That sucks! I really hope you get your card back but it doesn't sound like that's going to happen without legal action. You just never know who you can trust anymore. I've been collecting/buying/selling/trading since I was 6 (25 years) and there are still only 4 or 5 people in the hobby that I know well enough to send a card to with out first receiving payment.


Hope everything works out.
Paul.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

that truly does suck !.....this makes it harder to do business in such a manner to where one gets a card before paying . I have had many board members do this for me and you can ask anyone if my name shouldnt be "the overnight king" !

I do not like to read such a story ,but it helps to let everyone know what a guy
he is. I would like that card if you get it back.

Good luck
Dan

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Posted By: J Levine

First off...is Mr. Plemmons located anywhere near you (or any other board member--someone you trust). I have found that a personal visit can often get a better response. Especially if you send a representive of the local police with your friend. Years ago (even before ebay) I did a transaction on Prodigy with someone about 3 hours from me. Sent him card after got his check which then bounced HIGH! I showed up on his doorstep and demanded card back. He slammed door. Next day, I showed up with police officer in tow and he gladly handed me card and the bounced check fee...

If this option does not work, turn him over to his local police or the fbi's internet fraud division. Also advise him through phone or mail that he has commited a rather large crime and that the authorities WILL get involved. This usually gets a decent response.

My two cents...

Joshua
(I am a pitbull when i get ripped off and i have even spent more money than the card was worth to get justice---it is the principle of the thing)

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Posted By: warshawlaw

to blow all of these business/card/friendly relationships over $1200. Reminds me of when the treasurer of our football fantasy league absconded with the funds at the end of the year.

Trust truly is a four-letter word sometimes.

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Posted By: eric p.

keith, what city/state does he live in?

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Posted By: Keith O'Leary

He lives in Appling Georgia (I'm from PA). I also have his (parent's) and his girlfriend's phone number if that buys me anything. Keith

 

 

 

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Posted By: BlackSoxFan

Keith -
I live in atlanta, and i won't be able to commit much if any time to this right now, but Appling is real close to August (about 1:45 min. away)....email me .... we'll chat.



Regards,
Black Sox Fan

- - - - - - - - -

I'm Smart Enough To Know, There Are A Lot Of People Who Know More Than I Know

BlackSoxFan.com
email me

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Keith,

I feel for you, man. I just got ripped off to the tune of $30,000 by a board member and the collector he buys for. Like you, I'm forced to take legal action. What a hassle!

I'll be posting more about it in a different thread tomorrow. I'm hoping other board members can offer some advice on how they'd proceed if they were in my shoes.

-Ryan

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Posted By: barrysloate

Keith's story is bad enough, and while I often send cards out before payment to people I know, I just won't do it for someone I don't know, despite his pie-in-the-sky promises. That was a mistake. But Keith's dilemma pales in comparison to what Ryan just posted. That is a big time loss. What are the details behind it?

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Ryan,

Going public with the information (as Keith did) serves the members of this forum by providing them with information on whether or not to go forward with any pending deals with people that may not be as honest as we think.

There are two sides to a story and if the board member cares to respond to the accusations then people can make their own informed decisions on whether to commit to any future or pending deals.

I was once on the wrong end of a $30K deal that I finally resolved with little loss but that feeling of being ripped off (or potentially ripped off) is really unsettling.

Also, I didn't sit back and relax after ensuring my money was recovered, I went the extra mile to have charges brought against that stupid SOB. To this day my blood still boils when I think of what that A-hole tried to do. Most everyone knows who I'm talking about if I indicate that the person is from Canada and his first name is Jason. No need to go any further.

Even if you get your money back, at a minimum, you need to expose this type of behavior so others don't get caught in the same situation you did.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I look forward to hearing about who it was that screwed Ryan.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

There are only two people who ever send me cards in advance, and I have known them for YEARS...a stent is the result of a long history of too much cholesterol (or genetics), and could not have been placed as the result of his contemplatiung parting with 1200. Howver, the condition
requiring the stent is often discovered through a mild heart attack.

Nice kelly...wasn't it?

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Posted By: joe maples

Keith sorry to hear about your problem. We probably all have lost money on some type of transaction, I did with a fake Cobb card for $1000.00. Never could get any satisfactory results. I would not send a card unless I really knew the person well. And Ryan, I would be sick in bed with a possible loss of 30k on cards.

Joe

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Posted By: J Levine

Losing 30,000 would put me in a coma...

Joshua

PS 30000 is just about my take home pay for an entire year!

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Posted By: Andrew Parks

Yepper -- He took a 1948 Topps Magic Photo Ty Cobb from me - only $75.00 worth but still...haven't heard a thing from him.

Nowhere near the Kelly - SGC 30, though.

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Posted By: tbob

Interesting post, I hope things work out Keith. For those of you wondering about sending cards out early and think that there are only a couple of guys you can trust, maybe I am naive but there are about 15-16 guys on this board, and they know who they are, that I have sent cards to early and they have returned the favor. A lot of great guys on this board and real collectors.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Interesting reading and I hope you get the card or money.

I was one of them mentioned in his emails, I had 2 dealings with him. He bought a T205 Cobb from me about 3 years ago on ebay, he wanted to return it, but I did not let him ecause there was nothing wrong withthe description and I needed the money towards down payment on my house and that ended that transaction.
The other was an attempted transaction in the time frame that Keith was dealing with him. I was trying to buy a T206 Matty w/Hindu back after 3 months of scattered emails and no price I gave up, only to find one day it was up on ebay and got BINed for less than what I was willing to pay.
It is sad to hear that there are board contributors that are taking advantage of others. My advice is don't be afraid to email some contributors if you are doing a deal with someone you have never dealt with. I for one am more than willing to help if needed.

Lee

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Erik,

I can't speak for anyone else but I will speak for myself. I have this weakness that is called "TRUST". After you communicate with people for a while you build up a FRIENDship and "trust" is part of this thing which causes a breakdown in the baisc instinct of not getting screwed.

On ebay we feel a little comfort in our transactions because the "trust" factor is based on feedback. Think about it, if you didn't know someone would you feel comfortable sending them $$$ for something that will be (or supposed to be) shipped after your money is received. The feedback system on ebay alleviates some of this apprehension. Even ebay feedback isn't perfect. A few months ago someone (with a 100% over 100 feedback) sold me a repint (over $100) and told me to leave the negative, he didn't care. That's a different story that I wont go into at this time.

My point is that someone trusted another member of this group because of the communications that took place in and out of this forum. He felt comfortable with the person. It's sad that this trust was abused because it diminishes the overall "feel good" hobby experience for Keith (and Ryan and Andrew).

Part of being a member of this board is feeling "safe" with others that share the same interests as yourself. We don't know Mike Plemmon's story and if he hasn't departed this world then he has a lot of explaining to do.

In any case a "trust" was broken. I would rather be broke than not trusted. I'd rather be known as an broke honest person than a rich liar and thief. If Keith trusted someone then I would call it a weakness of human nature, not on Keith's part but on Mike's part.

I couldn't imagine living my life not trusting people, it would be a miserable existence. In hind sight we can all look at this and say why would someone do this. Two sides - (1) why would someone send out $1200 without collateral? (2) Why would someone want to break a trust and be known as a liar and a thief? Again, we haven't heard from Mike so to be fair I wont totally judge him on this, but you have to admit, it doesn't look good.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Erik,

I hope it didn't sound like I was jumping down your throat for your comments. If so, I whole heartedly apologize.

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Posted By: Keith O'Leary

I've always trusted people before distrusting them. Sure, you can be wrong about first impressions and most scam artists will come off sounding like long lost high school buddies, but first and foremost it seems to me this hobby should be about trust, sharing and enjoyment, and not distrust, trepidation, bad feelings and negativity. It should be way to gain and share knowledge, it should be a way to make new friends that share a common interest, it should feel good being part of a fellowship. Hobbies should be just that, fun.

In my 30 odd years of collecting, I've had only 4 or 5 bad experiences with collecting acquaintances. Some are still prominent in the hobby, but my trust, my dealings, and my respect for them ended when I realized I was left "holding the empty bag" in a mutual transaction. They may want to forget about it because they want to, but it won't be by me because I don't.

edited to fix aqcquantances

 

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Posted By: leon

It should be noted that just because someone is a participant on our board does not necessarily make them trustworthy. I too like to think the best of everyone. I also trust folks too much usually. ALWAYS know who you are dealing with. A lot of us on this board have known each other for many years and we do have a trust...but it's been built over time. That doesn't mean that my best hobby buddy won't outsnipe me on something, but I know if I am dealing with one of my friends, I wont get ripped off. About 99.9% of folks on this board are good to deal with...but as always it's caveat emptor. Needless to say that Network54, nor my other moderator helpers, nor myself, guarantee anything....except a hard time if you act up on the board ....regards

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Posted By: barrysloate

I am also someone who wants to believe in the good of my fellow man, but perhaps not to the tune of $1200. If a new customer buys a card for $75 and pays by check, the card goes right out. I don't think anyone would be so callous as to bounce a check that small. For that, anyone has my total trust. But a new customer for $1200, common sense takes over and I get a little nervous. Unless I have some kind of recommendation from someone who knows him, I just feel compelled to wait for the check to clear. $1200 unfortunately trumps blind faith (no, not Clapton's old band).

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Posted By: robert a

I think that Keith, who is an extremely nice guy to deal with, trusted this dude because he (like so many of us on this board) has had great dealings with many other board members in the past. I've met many great people on this board that I honestly wouldn't think twice about sending them an expensive card to examine before I received payment.

Unfortunately, things like this are a constant reminder of the possibility of getting ripped off.

In the end, Keith, I think you'll get your money back and wish you the best of luck in dealing with this frustrating situation.

Robert A

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Posted By: barrysloate

Robert- In the spirit of the inherent goodness in all of us, I'm with you completely. But in the real world, if you continually send out expensive cards to people you don't really know, sooner or later it will come back to bite you.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

Erik, who are you ?

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Posted By: leon

Good question. EricV- please email me privately. thanks a lot....