PSA Autograph Authentication Problems

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Posted By: Richard

Please go to my website -

http://www.richardsimonsports.com/hofauto2.htm

I have some very detailed information there about PSA authenticating facsimile signatures and autopen signatures.

Richard Simon

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Posted By: Judge Dred

Thank you for the link. These threads really hit home and create a reality check for our hobby. I don't like to think that our hobby is in a shambles but we do have issues that need to be dealt with and brought to light. As long as the information provided is accurate then I don't mind reading about it.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Great link! I enjoyed reading my PSA court victory again! Dan.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I thought the fake Ruth signed photo story was interesting (As pictured/described in the link, the photo's back has a five digit zip code address. The United States 5 digit zip code was introduced in 1962, meaning the photo was made well after Ruth's death). Counting the numbers in the zip code is a technique used by experienced photo collectors to identify many reprints.

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Posted By: jay behrens

It amazes me that people even bother collecting autographs anymore. I stayed away from them in the 80s because I knew forgeries were rampant back then, and it's worse now.

All the sigs I have I got in person and they are all personalized, including my DiMaggio ball, except the first foul ball I ever caught which Butch Wynegar signed for me after the game.

Jay

Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: Richard

Jay - unfortunately there is a lot of truth to what you are saying.
The advent of the Internet and ebay have made autograph collecting much more dangerous.
I always recommend that collectors buy from dealers who are DEALER MEMBERS of the major trade organizations. While that is no 100% guarantee of authenticity, it does usually mean the dealer will stand behind his product, as opposed to many ebay only or Internet only dealers who will never give a refund on questionable items.

Richard Simon

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Posted By: david

why does american memorablia seem to be involved in just about most of these questionable scenarios. i stopped looking at their items after the old judge proof debacle. this just reinforces the notion of staying away from them

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Posted By: PASJD

This information reflects the tip of a very large iceberg, but nostalgia and/or the collecting impulse and/or the naivite of the general populace are so powerful that scandals will not make a dent in either the integrity of sellers or the spending of buyers. The WIWAG mess, the rumors about the T206 Wagner, and other things too numerous to mention have not hurt PSA a bit judging from its stock price and from ebay. I seriously doubt the issues raised on this board about the Keeler cabinet and its undisclosed "cleaning" and/or "stabilization" by an undislosed outside "conservator" will make one iota of impact on either Mastro's disclosure policies or people's unquenchable lust to buy items from Mastro. As much as I applaud efforts by Richard and Robert and others I may not know about, I just don't see the autograph/game-used bat/game-used jersey etc. market drying up. The criminals, if they are criminals, will weather any minor storms because the demand is so insatiable and people want to believe items are as they are represented to be. I hope I am wrong, but I think plus ca change, plus ca meme chose.

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Posted By: dennis

but at least if you read this boards posts it will make you aware problems are out there.

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Posted By: Judge Dred

Collectors Universe (CLCT)
21.179 +0.329 (+1.58%) as of close on 14JAN05

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Posted By: davidcycleback

The best thing is for the collector to have a knowledge, experience and genuine interest in the material he or she collects. The second is to deal with honest and knowledgeable dealers (and many exist). As Richard noted, a good dealer doesn't mean a person who never makes a mistakes, but that if a mistake is made it is fixed. The third is to have people who can give you knowledgeable second opinions on material (This board is an prime example for Pre-War baseball card collectors).

If a knowledgeable collector thinks something's legit, the knowledgeable seller thinks somethings legit and the collector's knowledgeable second opinion thinks something's legit, the buyer is more than likely making a good purchase.

Whether it's Mickey Mantle rookie cards, original Gia Carangi photos or Charlie Chaplain movie posters, the vast majority of fakes are obvious to to people knowledgeable and experienced with the material. Those horrendous T206 Honus Wagner fakes on eBay are bid on, but not by people who collects and own T206s.

Experienced and knowledgeable collectors are most likely to be fooled (or pay too much) when they purchase something outside their area of experience. This is why it's good to gather a list of good sellers, dealers and people who can give you advice on material. If from past experience you know that Elliot is a trustworthy guy and fair grader when he sold you a pair of T206s for your T206 set, you'll know he's a trusty worthy guy and fair grader he he sells you your first Pre-War hockey card. This is one reason why big reputable auction houses who do a good job offer a great service distinct to the eBay flea market -- a collector can buy with reasonable confidence an Old Judge baseball card and Fred Astair's top hat from the same place!

A key word/concept collectors often dismess or ignore: Provenance (Where something came from/it's history/who owned it/other documentation of history or reliability). And by provenance, I don't mean made up stories (for every forged Ruth ball, there is a forged history) ... A question a collector may have about an expensive unique item is "Where'd you get this?" The second thing this collector might says is, "Prove it." (The third might be, "You're full of sh*t."

Good provenance is not a magic bullet, and is a suppliment to rather a replacement of examining the thing itself, but it is an important factor in judging the authenticity and reliability of the item itself. Good provenance is also something the average collector can sink his teeth into. A collector may be no expert on movie posters, but he will likely feel more confident knowing the 'Cabinet of Dr. Caligari' movie poster he's about to purchase was bought in a Leland's auction and comes with the original Leland's receipt. The Leland's receipt doesn't mean the poster could never ever ever ever be a reprint, but says it passed through good hands.

Simple summary: Collectors who are inteligent, educate themselves and are genuinely interested in the material they collect are the least likely to be fooled by fakes and forgeries. People who do not educate themselves and have little genuine interest in the stuff they are buying are the most likely to be fooled by fakes and forgeries .... Collect what genuinely interests you and enjoy learning all you can about it. Remember, it's a hobby (pronouced "haw-BEE").


(I try to tempor my long, too preachy posts by adding a photo of Jean Shrimpton)

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Posted By: Richard

I have been exchanging e mails with someone who thinks that I am doing the hobby a disservice by exposing the practices of PSA. He thinks conduct like PSA's should not be known by the general public, because it undermines their confidence in authenticators and the hobby. He refuses to tell me who he is.

I don't claim to be perfect and neither does PSA, however the things I have written about on my website are more than just differences of opinion on somebody's autograph, which can always happen among honest people.

Do the readers of this post think I am doing the hobby a service or a disservice by writing these PSA stories on my website?

Richard Simon

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Posted By: davidcycleback

If Richard Simon describing in detail autograph errors is not a service to the hobby and its collectors spending hard earned money, I don't know what is.

The opinion from someone who refuses to stand behind it by giving his name, is an opinion that has no weight. My experience (and the experience of this board) is that the hobby stories, statements, gossip and sincerity changes greatly once the person realizes his name will be attached to the statements he is about to give. It's so easy to make up stuff and say things you wouldn't ordinarilly say when you think no one will ever know who's saying it. At the very least, the statements from anymous posters and persons are unreliable and should carry no weight.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Sounds to me like someone has a very strong finanacial interest in PSA and PSA authenticated items. If PSA/DNA COS's become essentially worthless, there are going to be a lot of unhappy people. As someone else mentioned, if they are unwilling to disclose who they are, then their opinion is esstentially worthless since they aren't willing to back it up.

Anyone owning PSA/DNA itmes should rightfully be worried about what is going on. But don't shoot the messenger. They should be contacting PSA and asking them what they are doing to correct these problems and improve their reliability.

Jay

Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: Richard

Thanks for the supporting statements so far. I will be in severe distress for a while (Jets fan:) ) but I will be reading the board.

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Posted By: dennis

you are providing baseball collectors a service that is very welcome....keep up the good work. you should start a new thread asking that question. i think you would get about 95% favorable response here.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

PSA/DNA is just like anyone else: they make mistakes. It doesn't even bother me having Orlando (who I think is a lying turd BTW) sign the certs on behalf of PSA/DNA because you are buying the PSA/DNA cert, so long as he's not the one looking at the stuff. What bugs me is that the company is a mealy-mouthed weasel of a corporation that refuses to own up to its errors and make restitution to its victims. If PSA wants you to count on its opinions and make money by dispensing them, then dammit, step up and stand behind them.

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Posted By: PASJD

It's interesting. A couple of years ago I bought a relatively expensive (for me anyway) card graded NM/MT 8 that on close inspection had a small crease. When I could not get restitution from the seller, I sent Joe Orlando an email, he wrote back saying to send the card to him, and he refunded my money promptly. I was very impressed. But when a similar thing happened to me about a month ago, several emails went unanswered.

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Posted By: Josh Evans

Richard, keep fighting the good fight
It is worth it
What we do is a magical thing
If it was all easy then it wouldn't be worth doing

David Cycleback makes an imprtant point
Those with expertise, that been entrusted by our hobby all make mistakes, it is how we deal with them that counts
Also, it should be a consensus of opinion, not one individual where we find the truth
None of us have all the answers
None of us have all the knowledge
Together as a community we will find the truth and we must revaluate that truth every day

Keep up the good work, all of us
Josh

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Posted By: Kevin O

Your website saved me from some costly mistakes a few years ago. Since that point I have divested myself of all but a handful of autographs--those that my grandfather and father obtained in person at the Polo Grounds and Ebbets Field. It's just not worth the risk anymore.

I also think you might enjoy the following: Don't miss the chance to own this beauty on January 22nd! (the ball itself looks pretty nice though.)
http://www.gamageantiques.com/auctions/012205/012205ephem.html

(scroll down the page)

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Posted By: warshawlaw

If vintage, however, maybe it isn't a forgery but is a fake--maybe a dad tried to make a son feel good with a forgery to make good on a promise?

Hey, I'm just trying to be a kinder, gentler person...

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Posted By: Richard Simon

You might have hit the nail on the head there with the statement that a dad might have signed it for his son. It would not be the first time I have seen something like that happen. It does not look like the Babe's sig. to me.


Richard Simon

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Posted By: Rhys

That reminds me of an older episode of Sanford and Son I saw a few years ago, where a friend of Red Fox's son wanted to make something he did up to Red, so he gave him a Jackie Robinson autographed ball (this was probably in about 1974, so only a few years after Jackie died), but when Sanford looked at the ball a few hours later he realized the name was spelled "Jacky" and that the guy had just scribbled the name on the ball thinking nobody would know. Only episode of Sanford and Son I have ever labored through, but it was pretty funny. Sounds like the same type of thing going on here. I wonder how many people did something like this innocently in the past and now own a worthless family heirloom.

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Posted By: Tim Mayer

not a worthless family handme down, just one that has no resale value:)

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Posted By: Foster S. Jeter

I posted it on the CU boards and I'll post it here: the hobby sorely needs people like you and guys like Robert Plancich that keep people informed. This article, http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/271656p-232674c.html, only highlights that fact. I admit I don't have six figures to spend on a piece of memorabilia but if I did, I would definately want peace of mind that it is what it is reported to be. Keep up the good work!

Scott

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Posted By: Richard Simon

Thanks to everyone on this board for their outpouring of support.
When my anonymous e-mailer wrote to me, he actually dared me to post the PSA stories on this forum. He said that the readers of the forum would XXXXX for me. I have XXXX it out because it was quite vulgar and does not bear repeating here.
Well, the response has been 100% opposite that and I am grateful for that.
Thanks again. It is good to know that the effort I put in is noticed and appreciated.

Richard Simon

p.s. Josh - I didn't know you could wax so poetic .
Thanks.

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Posted By: Rob L

Richard,

Keep it up. I have been reading your forgery alert newsletter on your website for the past couple of years now. I have stated for some time that yours and Mike Gutierrez' work is the best out there.

Thanks

Rob L