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  #1  
Old 07-15-2003, 08:10 PM
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Default Rebacked T206's on Ebay

Posted By: Brian Weisner


Many of you remember the following Graded T206's sold on Ebay with rare"rebacked" backs in the last 2 years. Here is a list to refresh your memories and to inform the newbies:

1. Cobb/Green background/ Red Hindu Pro Graded
2. Johnson/Pitching/Broadleaf 350 Pro Graded
3. Mathewson/Red Hindu Sgc Corrected
4. Cobb/ Drum PSA Corrected

All of these doctored cards seem to come from the same group of people who continue to sell on Ebay.
I know that this board has been attacked recently for going after Ebay fraud, but I can't allow anyone else to be fooled into buying rebacked cards just because they are graded by a third party grader. As you can see above, even Psa and Sgc have been fooled by these fakes so if it looks to good to be true, stay away.
Warning signs?
1. Private auctions
2. Low Grade cards with staining around the edges
3. Backs that just don't quite fit there fronts

I won't point out all the signs because the good doctors don't need anymore help. Be wary and ask questions, because rebacks are starting to return to Ebay. Be well Brian

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  #2  
Old 07-15-2003, 11:51 PM
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Default Rebacked T206's on Ebay

Posted By: Robert

Is that why the Ty Cobb red background with the Drum back is gone? That one was graded by BVG as a 1. Rob

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  #3  
Old 07-16-2003, 12:21 AM
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Default Rebacked T206's on Ebay

Posted By: Elliot

From ebay---

"The following listing:

2741567481 - T206 COBB - DRUM BACK BVG 1 RARE LOOK PSA 2 ?

was removed by eBay because a member of our Verified Right Owner (VeRO) Program notified eBay that the listing potentially infringes its copyright, trademark or other rights. We strongly urge you not to complete this transaction."

What the heck is VeRO?


Elliot

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  #4  
Old 07-16-2003, 12:38 AM
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Default Rebacked T206's on Ebay

Posted By: MW

Elliot,

It means that either: (1) the seller did not have permission to use one of the images (or related information) in his listing or that (2) the seller did not own the card he was attempting to sell.

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  #5  
Old 07-16-2003, 12:47 AM
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Default Rebacked T206's on Ebay

Posted By: Elliot

I'm not sure if that's it. The wording is sufficiently vague. I'm wondering if it's because of the use of "PSA" without authorization.

Elliot

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  #6  
Old 07-16-2003, 06:51 AM
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Default Rebacked T206's on Ebay

Posted By: Brian Weisner


We haven't seen the last of this card. Does anyone here deal with BVG? They should have the opportunity to correct there mistake. Be well Brian

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  #7  
Old 07-16-2003, 09:57 AM
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Default Rebacked T206's on Ebay

Posted By: Robert

So do you guys think it is the same one that was graded by PSA as stated in the above post item number 4? Rob

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  #8  
Old 07-16-2003, 10:43 AM
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Default Rebacked T206's on Ebay

Posted By: Brian Weisner


No Robert,
The aforementioned Cobb was destroyed after an employee of a leading auction house UNSLABBED it in front of PSA to expose the forgery.
I do believe we can isolate the Drum back which was destroyed to make this "new" beauty, and hope to make the information available at a later time. Thanks Brian

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  #9  
Old 07-16-2003, 12:34 PM
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Default Rebacked T206's on Ebay

Posted By: Brian C Daniels

1) the fake card-and yes it was/is fake is owned by the scum of the earth Gary Moser-who goes by Art Vondole-the same scammer who sold Koos the fake Mantle and Joe Jackson e-90. look at all his negative ( and private feedbacks! )

2) I have the only known real Drum back card as purchased in a festberg auction seven years ago.It's in a PSA 3 holder in my safe deposit box.

3)Moser-scum has another handle he uses with far more feedback than the one with the Cobb-beware my brothers,BEWARE! Oh yeah,and you watch out to Mark!

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  #10  
Old 07-16-2003, 01:30 PM
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Default Rebacked T206's on Ebay

Posted By: Keith O'Leary

Saw the name and had to respond.

My only negative feedback resulted in a dealing with this sleazebag.

Bought a raw NM described (and after many before the auction ended questions and assurances from him that the card was an untrimmed, authentic NM N28 Carver no questions ask returnable item) card from him on ebay only to fnd after receiving it that it was in fact trimmed.

I immediately emailed him informing him that I was sending the card back and wanted my money refunded less his ebay expenses incurred.

Well....to make a long story short...he ended up with the card and my $100....I waited until the very last day to post feedback for him (and blasted him with a big fat negative including some name calling which left me with a small smile)....he retaliated in less then an hour with a "self defense" feedback shot at me.....I filed a fraud complaint / please remove the BS negative retaliatory feedback from my history request with ebay and got absolutely no satisfaction from them....still have a bad taste in my mouth from this "bitter" pill.

People who go by many names are usually running from something or someone.

Stay clear of this scambag. Keith

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  #11  
Old 07-16-2003, 08:00 PM
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Default Rebacked T206's on Ebay

Posted By: warshawlaw

I've bought maybe ten cards over the years from this guy and his aliases. All have been fine, except one plainly trimmed T220 that I am certain was trimmed back in the day by a kid so that it would fit into a stack neatly (T220 cards occasionally run a full 1/8" tall). I returned the card and got a refund, no questions asked. Must be my lovely personality--or my law firm letterhead. . .

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  #12  
Old 07-17-2003, 01:42 AM
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Default Rebacked T206's on Ebay

Posted By: BCD

"Art Vondole" aka Gary Moser is the scumbag but the right part of their now defunct partnership is Gerry Schwartz who is-"never pay full price"! I talked to him about this,Koos and some other things that took place over the past ten years and apart from selling PRO graded cards,he is a-OK! His ex-partner Gary ( Fart Vondole*) stole from him and caused all the issues between any of us and card deals* so stay clear of him. he has two handles and if anyone knows them they should post them for us to "monitor" in chat54 fashion we are so endearingly accussed of.

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  #13  
Old 07-17-2003, 03:30 AM
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Default Rebacked T206's on Ebay

Posted By: BcD

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2742606579&category=31718


I know,it's so funny you can hear a pun drop!

private feedback-lots of negatives.

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  #14  
Old 07-17-2003, 07:28 AM
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Default Rebacked T206's on Ebay

Posted By: leon

My only dealing with Gerry Schwartz, which was around a time that a lot of rhetoric was being cast about, was pleasant and good.....a recommended seller.....regards all

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  #15  
Old 07-17-2003, 08:35 AM
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Default Rebacked T206's on Ebay

Posted By: david

as far as rarity is concerned what is the population on cobbs with drum backs. are they rarer then the uzit and ty cobb back. my guess is that a vg example of this card is easily 5 figures

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  #16  
Old 07-17-2003, 09:12 AM
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Default Rebacked T206's on Ebay

Posted By: ty_cobb

I've e-mailed Beckett about this card as I
am interested to see what their response is
to such a situation. Does anyone have a phone
contact number at Beckett Grading?

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  #17  
Old 07-17-2003, 09:31 AM
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Default Rebacked T206's on Ebay

Posted By: leon

Wayne G, the person that can handle this, is on jury duty today. Not sure when he'll be back but I just left him a v-mail about this situation. I am sure he will get back with me/us soon. No doubt they will address the situation in a professional manner. For us novice T206 collectors why does this particular Cobb-Drum look fake? Is it the brown lettering of his name on the front, or what? best regards

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  #18  
Old 07-17-2003, 09:48 AM
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Default Rebacked T206's on Ebay

Posted By: Brian Weisner


Leon,
How can you recommend someone who sells trimmed cards in Pro holders?

One of his other Ebay handles: syzygy3.14 sold the following Pro graded trim jobs last week:

2740019462 pro 10 Matty
2740020095 pro 7.5 Jennings
2740022153 pro 9 Bresnahan

Just because they buy and sell some legit cards, doesn't mean you can overlook the altered cards they sell. Nice guy or not.
Brian

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  #19  
Old 07-17-2003, 09:59 AM
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Default Rebacked T206's on Ebay

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Leon,
The Drum/Cobb has a real front and a real back, but they came from 2 different T206 cards. As stated in an earlier post, this is not the first rebacked Drum Cobb combination produced by Gary. His earlier effort was sent to Mastro in a PSA holder, but they questioned it's authenticity and broken open the slab in front of Psa personal. Upon learning it was a reback, the card was destroyed.
Thanks Brian

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  #20  
Old 07-17-2003, 10:00 AM
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Default Rebacked T206's on Ebay

Posted By: leon

I was unaware of those cards.....ok, I take back what I said .....just make it "caveat emptor" instead.....but my only dealing with him was still ok.....maybe he just got duped into the Pro cards, and I would say that one duping should not lead to another...as I still have a nice fake D304 Lajoie in my collection.. ....best regards

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  #21  
Old 07-17-2003, 10:36 AM
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Default Rebacked T206's on Ebay

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Leon

These guys have so many different handles that it's impossible to keep up with whose who, or whose on first. These guys are not stupid. They aquire there inventory and there positive feedback by buying from respectable dealers and reslabbing them in Pro Holders. They sell allot of Legit cards in PSA, SGC,GAI, SCD and Beckett holders to fool there customers into thinking there Pro cards are also Legit. Only when these Pro cards are resubmitted to a legitimate grading company does the buyer find out he's been taken.
I didn't mean to get on my soapbox, but I didn't want Leon to hurt his name by endorsing the wrong people. Have a great time at the national, and send me some picks of your new finds. (Oh Fan, Oh Put, Oh Crap this card is trimmed.) later Brian

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  #22  
Old 07-17-2003, 12:05 PM
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Default Rebacked T206's on Ebay

Posted By: BcD

with the bogus Red Hindu reverse. Not the Cobb. This is what I was told almost two years ago by Mastro staff.

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  #23  
Old 07-17-2003, 12:45 PM
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Default Rebacked T206's on Ebay

Posted By: Brian Weisner


Hi BCD,
The Matty Portrait/Red Hindu was graded by PSA and SGC before it was discovered to be a rebacked card.
SGC bought the card and destroyed it. The Cobb/Drum was unslabbed by Mastro at the Ft Washington show in front of Psa personal and pronounced to be another rebacked card. This card was also destroyed.

Thanks Brian

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  #24  
Old 07-17-2003, 03:53 PM
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Default Rebacked T206's on Ebay

Posted By: MW

I believe that Brian Weisner is correct about the demise of both of the T206 fake backs. As for this current alteration, I very much agree that it was rebacked. Although I also have reservations about the authenticity of the front of the card, there is no question from the front/back centering and border disparity as well as the artificial "notching" and edge wear that has been added, that something is tragically wrong. Sure, it's impossible to say with 100% certainty that the Cobb/Drum is rebacked, but all the signs (& seller) are clearly there.

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