Collecting in the collections, outside the mainstream

[yanks87]

Quick question for the group. As I dig further into the sets that I am chasing, as well as the research that I am doing on the '49 Leaf cards, I am noticing that there are certain elements that are accepted by the "mainstream" collecting world, (price guides, grading houses, etc.), but in many cases, there are deeper stories that fall outside of the accepted or documented variations, that in my opinion make for more compelling collecting stories. So the question is, are there things that are known and established by collectors, but since they are not recognized by the powers that be their potential true value is not recognized?

A couple of quick examples:

T201 - two factory backs, 649 and 30, with the 30's being tougher in spots to find, the Lord/Dougherty being the toughest to find with only 5-6 know on the board

T207 + T205 - Different company backs, and the factories associated with them - anonymous backs T207's with factory 3 and 25

1949 Leaf - There are 3 accepted variations, but the variations run throughout the entire non-short print set, with changes that indicate that there was a second printing of the first run of cards.

I'd love to hear the thoughts of the group to if the non-mainstream variations are worth more, or less if they are just known to the die hards, or if it takes the mainstream accepting them for the variations to be "real".

[Rhotchkiss]

There are numerous t206 variations (Nodgrass, Murr’y, Marquard red 8, etc) that are not considered part of the 524 card T206 set.

I am pretty sure T205 has all sorts of variations not recognized as necessary to a complete set

[yanks87]

To that point, what is the actual or perceived value difference outside the mainstream accepted variations. A Ty Cobb T206 with a Ty Cobb back will bring more money than a Piedmont as it is known that there are very few examples out there. If there is not an acknowledgment of fewer of a variant print running, is the value going to hold up, or is it something that only true collectors will know/value?

[hcv123]

The grading companies wield WAY too much power related to the question. It is by them grading the different variants as such that a "pop report" can be developed which can then be used to "prove" relative scarcity and justify higher values.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by hcv123

The grading companies wield WAY too much power related to the question. It is by them grading the different variants as such that a "pop report" can be developed which can then be used to "prove" relative scarcity and justify higher values.

Amen to that. And good luck convincing them to recognize a new variant!

[G1911]

It's a lot of fun collecting "unrecognized" variants precisely because they are cheap. People mostly only care about the Standard Catalog and what PSA chooses selectively to be cognizant of. Makes it fun to get the hard ones that they don't include, for low prices.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by yanks87

Quick question for the group. As I dig further into the sets that I am chasing, as well as the research that I am doing on the '49 Leaf cards, I am noticing that there are certain elements that are accepted by the "mainstream" collecting world, (price guides, grading houses, etc.), but in many cases, there are deeper stories that fall outside of the accepted or documented variations, that in my opinion make for more compelling collecting stories. So the question is, are there things that are known and established by collectors, but since they are not recognized by the powers that be their potential true value is not recognized?

A couple of quick examples:

T201 - two factory backs, 649 and 30, with the 30's being tougher in spots to find, the Lord/Dougherty being the toughest to find with only 5-6 know on the board

T207 + T205 - Different company backs, and the factories associated with them - anonymous backs T207's with factory 3 and 25

1949 Leaf - There are 3 accepted variations, but the variations run throughout the entire non-short print set, with changes that indicate that there was a second printing of the first run of cards.

I'd love to hear the thoughts of the group to if the non-mainstream variations are worth more, or less if they are just known to the die hards, or if it takes the mainstream accepting them for the variations to be "real".

49 Leaf does indeed have more than 3 different varieties. each color comes at least two ways, and some colors have very obvious differences that are always one of those ways but not the other.
And there are what I call "transitional types, where a card might have for instance variety1 of blue that usually goes with variety 1 of red, but some have blue 1 and red 2.
As far as I know the grading companied recognize none of them.

It's way more complex than I ever expected when I started putting together my visual spreadsheet, especially for such a small set.


Many sets have unrecognized differences, ranging from very obvious like the pink vs red 49 Leaf to very subtle or hard to spot stuff like different angles on the halftones (88 score) or different patterns to the glosscoat (93 upper deck)

In some ways I'd like to see their existence acknowledged by some hobby "authority" but in other ways I'd like them to remain sort of secret. Once that recognition comes, some will become expensive.

[isiahfan]

1973 Kaline Bandage is still not listed in Beckett

[yanks87]

Originally Posted by steve B

49 Leaf does indeed have more than 3 different varieties. each color comes at least two ways, and some colors have very obvious differences that are always one of those ways but not the other.
And there are what I call "transitional types, where a card might have for instance variety1 of blue that usually goes with variety 1 of red, but some have blue 1 and red 2.
As far as I know the grading companied recognize none of them.

It's way more complex than I ever expected when I started putting together my visual spreadsheet, especially for such a small set.


Many sets have unrecognized differences, ranging from very obvious like the pink vs red 49 Leaf to very subtle or hard to spot stuff like different angles on the halftones (88 score) or different patterns to the glosscoat (93 upper deck)

In some ways I'd like to see their existence acknowledged by some hobby "authority" but in other ways I'd like them to remain sort of secret. Once that recognition comes, some will become expensive.

This is actually one that I am in the process of researching. Leaf presents an unusual issue. The ink colors that were used definitely had a pretty good spectrum, but there is more to it. I have a theory that there was a 2nd printing of the first 49 in the set, with changes made to the printing plate. These plate changes have been verified with people within the printmaking trade who are familiar with the letter press that the cards were printed on. In this instance, it would be a variation akin to the Demmitt, Eberfield or Doyle T206's as there was an actual plate change. As far as I can tell, of the populations, ~35% of the population are actually from the 2nd printing. The pink you refer to, was actually from that second printing.

SO, does this mean that the variations from that printing are worth more, because they are more scarce? I guess time will tell.

[yanks87]

Originally Posted by G1911

It's a lot of fun collecting "unrecognized" variants precisely because they are cheap. People mostly only care about the Standard Catalog and what PSA chooses selectively to be cognizant of. Makes it fun to get the hard ones that they don't include, for low prices.

I totally agree!

[steve B]

Originally Posted by yanks87

This is actually one that I am in the process of researching. Leaf presents an unusual issue. The ink colors that were used definitely had a pretty good spectrum, but there is more to it. I have a theory that there was a 2nd printing of the first 49 in the set, with changes made to the printing plate. These plate changes have been verified with people within the printmaking trade who are familiar with the letter press that the cards were printed on. In this instance, it would be a variation akin to the Demmitt, Eberfield or Doyle T206's as there was an actual plate change. As far as I can tell, of the populations, ~35% of the population are actually from the 2nd printing. The pink you refer to, was actually from that second printing.

SO, does this mean that the variations from that printing are worth more, because they are more scarce? I guess time will tell.

There are absolutely differences in all four plates, possibly more than 2 versions of each.

As far as I can tell, they're not letterpress, but lithographed.
At least 3 distinct press runs of the 49, probably more.
If it was all about rarity, some would be worth more the pink ones are not as common as the others. The transitional types may turn out to be truly rare/uncommon.
The problem with value is that enough people have to both know and care for there to be enough demand.
With most errors or variations that just doesn't happen.


I'll have to upload the current version, but I'm gradually saving images of all the differences I can spot, and have most of them on a spreadsheet. It won't email, but I can send you a link.

[yanks87]

Steve,

just sent you a note. Agreed on all fronts, (and the wrong backs!).

[ALBB]

I think with a killer set like that Leaf set. Most collectors would be happy with any color variation of a card they need

[here2havefun]

Originally Posted by hcv123

The grading companies wield WAY too much power related to the question. It is by them grading the different variants as such that a "pop report" can be developed which can then be used to "prove" relative scarcity and justify higher values.

This x1000. The Blank Back Satchel Paige Leaf that's been on ebay for a while is _very_ interesting, but it's not reflected in the SGC pop report (as a "pop 1", I assume). I reached out to SGC, to see if they would consider carving that card off the main pop report; they said they would think about it, but it never happened. That one simple act would bump up the value quite a bit imo.

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by G1911

It's a lot of fun collecting "unrecognized" variants precisely because they are cheap. People mostly only care about the Standard Catalog and what PSA chooses selectively to be cognizant of. Makes it fun to get the hard ones that they don't include, for low prices.

Agree with this which makes it interesting for the 1952 Topps variation collectors. It is hard to believe they do not recognize some of the well known "printing" variations like the '52 Campos border break, etc.

[frohme]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

There are numerous t206 variations (Nodgrass, Murr’y, Marquard red 8, etc) that are not considered part of the 524 card T206 set.

I am pretty sure T205 has all sorts of variations not recognized as necessary to a complete set

As does T207, though I'm not sure there's even much conversation, agreement, or even knowledge around those... many come down to print issues with one or more color passes.

The more common ones ...

• The Carrigan/Wagner wrong-back pair have been (properly, IMO) removed from the catalog.
• Davis "blue 'C' " has been proven to exist, but looks (again, IMO) to be another color print issue.

There are others, but they all seem so esoteric that not garnering any attention seems appropriate as we don't really need anything else to obsess over.

--
Mike