M101-2 Supplements in Memory Lane

[BobC]

Didn't want to post this in the Memory Lane auction thread and take away from it.

As someone in that other thread mentioned, the prices for the various M101-2 Sporting News Supplements were through the roof. What I don't understand though is why they all only got graded as PSA1. The descriptions said there were no pinholes, stains, or other visible issues (except maybe some minor spider creases on the backs that was mentioned in the Cobb/Wagner, Cobb, and Mathewson supplement descriptions)), and they all looked great in the scans. So why such low grades across the board? These are extremely fragile paper supplements so, finding them in decent shape is always tough to begin with. Anybody have any idea behind the reasoning, would love to hear it?

Also, is this something new for PSA to be grading? In the past I know Beckett at least used to grade them, but wasn't aware that SGC or PSA were.

[nolemmings]

I noticed that too Bob, although the Shoeless Joe has visible fold lines both front and back, and went for the most money. The Cobb may have a diagonal fold line also, unless that's just the holder. Fold lines are sometimes really tough to discern on these, but IMHO, even if they were treated as creases, that would not knock the grade down to 1.

There are some very small white spots on the back, often in the corners, that may be evidence of these at one time being in an album. Kind of hard to say as those instead could be some sort of pressure spots from being held in the PSA holder. Speaking of that, it will be interesting to see if these premiums slide in the holder. I own a couple of M101-2s in Beckett holders where they don't slide. Then again, the holders are way too bulky--I would have paid more for the premiums to have them raw then to now worry about trying to crack open these tombs and somehow damage the fragile contents inside.

[hcv123]

is it possible people bought the cards and NOT the holders!? PSA rendered their opinion - apparently, the buyers disagreed?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I noticed that too Bob, although the Shoeless Joe has visible fold lines both front and back, and went for the most money. The Cobb may have a diagonal fold line also, unless that's just the holder. Fold lines are sometimes really tough to discern on these, but IMHO, even if they were treated as creases, that would not knock the grade down to 1.

There are some very small white spots on the back, often in the corners, that may be evidence of these at one time being in an album. Kind of hard to say as those instead could be some sort of pressure spots from being held in the PSA holder. Speaking of that, it will be interesting to see if these premiums slide in the holder. I own a couple of M101-2s in Beckett holders where they don't slide. Then again, the holders are way too bulky--I would have paid more for the premiums to have them raw then to now worry about trying to crack open these tombs and somehow damage the fragile contents inside.

That is kind of what I was thinking as well, even if some spider creases (as the AH termed them) existed, I couldn't see the grades all being lowered to PSA1's. I did not really notice the white spots on the backs till you mentioned them. The original back scans looked fairly clean, and coupled with the AH's comments of no visible issues on any of them, I didn't use the magnification to really examine them. After doing so I can see what you're referring to on the pieces. Seems the visible white spots (maybe some kind of glue or adhesive residue) you described are most prominent in the upper corners of the supplements, and then down the right and left hand sides, seemingly more pronounced towards the bottoms. There also seems to be some stain, discolorization, or something on the lower, right side edge of the back of the Wagner supplement as well. And there is most definitely what looks like some tape residue in the upper and lower left hand corners on the back of the Jackson supplement. Can't easily detect the spider creasing they described from the scans, so glad they did mention that in their descriptions.

So if there is some tape, glue, or paper residue on the backs, along with some creasing, I can maybe understand now the PSA1 grades. Looks like these may have been in some scrapbook or attached to something then, as you said. Being paper, I don't think anyone would ever try to soak a supplement to get rid of any such residue as it would probably ruin the supplement. So if these back issues are what really lowered the condition of these M101-2s, I would have loved to have seen these in person to be able to see just how bad these really are to only get PSA1 grades. The scans of these definitely make them look way better than the grades then.

As for the white spots possibly being pressure points from the PSA holders, can't really tell from the scans, but doubt it. Those white marks look more like random residue. The plastic surfaces of the holders should be smooth so the pressure points, if any, would more likely be larger, more pronounced, and consistent for all the supplements, which they are not. As for an M101-2 supplement possibly moving around in a PSA holder and damaging it, can't really say till I've had a chance to see and check one out in person. It is highly possible though that if there is any movement that a supplement could be damaged, they are fragile paper and over 100 years old. I've got one M101-2 supplement in a Beckett holder also. And you're right, the supplements aren't moving around in those, and they are also way too bulky to or store or keep easily. Like you, I would rather a supplement not be encased in such a bulky, Beckett holder, but would never try to crack a supplement out of one either for fear of damaging it.

Which now leads to another question. Why would the AH go to the trouble of mentioning the virtually unnoticeable creasing, but then state there are no other visible issues on any of the supplements, when there clearly are? The AH even went so far as to state that all of the supplements looked to be in EX or better ccondition, despite the PSA1 grades. Yes, I know they said "to the naked eye", but to then also say there are no other visible issues aside from the spider creases doesn't seem right. I have seen the hyperbole of AH write-ups before, but this seems to go beyond that. If they were only referring to fronts of the supplements as looking EX or better, and stated there were only talking about the fronts, then that would be a different story.

[Bliggity]

I've been putting together the M101-2 set over the past couple of years. The ones in Memory Lane certainly had great eye appeal, but I believe this is just a function of people paying crazy money for PSA plastic. A couple years ago, there were a bunch of M101-2s that sold at auction (I think PWCC, but can't remember). It was the first round of PSA-graded M101-2s that I'd seen. They were all graded PSA A. It was clear that whoever had them graded just opted for authentication and not a grade. They still sold for 3x the price of a comparable raw copy. It made no sense to me. I imagine some of it must have been driven by registry lemmings given that M101-2s in PSA holders were very scarce. But there were also some non-registry purchasers who I thought at the time just flatly overpaid for no apparent reason. Since then, PSA A and PSA 1 copies have continued to rise, and based on the Memory Lane results are now more like 5-8x the price of a nice raw copy. Meanwhile, other nice M101-2s that are raw or in BGS holders are selling for maybe 1-2x their pre-pandemic prices.

I will admit that there's not much data here, so it's hard to know exactly what's up, but it just seems to me that it's another example of people paying up for plastic. I'll pass and wait for raw copies...I hope! I have no idea why someone would want a M101-2 graded in the first place.

I also acknowledge my bias as a M101-2 set builder who would like to continue to have access to reasonably-priced examples

[BobC]

Originally Posted by hcv123

is it possible people bought the cards and NOT the holders!? PSA rendered their opinion - apparently, the buyers disagreed?

Hi Howard,

I agree to "buy the card and not the holder", but look at what I just said/asked in my last post. If you are buying something online and can only view the scans, the way the item is described is going to have to also play a part in the decision of a potential buyer then. The descriptions by the AH repeatedly state that aside from the "minor spider crease" on the back of some of these supplements, there are no stains, pinholes, or "other visible issues" with any of them. As nolemmings posted and pointed out though, there clearly are other issues that if you can look closely enough at the scans, are visible. And the AH went even further to state that each of these M101-2 supplements looked to be at least EX condition, or better. Yet all five supplements only got PSA1 grades, so obviously there is something seriously not right with them.

My original post was because based on the scans and descriptions, there was no way I could see these all getting only PSA1 grades, yet they did. Now that the back issues were pointed out, it seems the AH descriptions don't make sense. And it isn't like this was something done on a single auction description, this was done over five separate auction lots, so whoever wrote the descriptions up, did so intentionally.

Usually the "buy the card not the holder" saying refers to instances where the card appears to be graded higher than it may seem to the person looking to buy it, and therefore the advice has been to not overspend just to get a TPG holder with a specific grade. These supplements would appear to be the rarer, opposite occasion, where the card looks much better than the technical grade then. So did the descriptions and scans unjustly play any part in making these M101-2 supplements seem that much better than the technical grades, and as a result bring in what seems like exceptional prices?

As I said, these appear to be exceptional prices for M101-2 Sporting News Supplements, especially given the technical grades. And don't get me wrong, I'm ecstatic to see such prices for these as that hopefully means my collection of them is worth that much more. However, something about these auction amounts just doesn't make sense then, given the PSA1 grades. These M101-2 supplements aren't traditional cards and are more of a niche collectible, or so I thought. I always equated them as more on a par with say the S74 silks. Nice and collectible by some, but nowhere near the demand or prices usually for major stars (like Cobb) in the more mainstream, contemporary issues.

I know you don't see M101-2s for sale everyday, but have always been able to find them out there, so to my thinking they aren't super rare, and certainly never at prices like this before. So are these recent M101-2 prices from this auction due to this crazy pandemic surge we've seen over this past year. Or is this a result of the non-collectors/investors looking and paying handsomely now for Cobbs, Wagners, Mathewsons, and Jacksons in a more obscure set like the M101-2s, because they can't afford the prices anymore for these same superstars in the regular card sets? And even if either of these reasons were totally (or even partially) true, that still doesn't explain such prices for PSA1s of these supplements, regardless of how nice they may look. The technical grade is still always going to be factored into the price being paid, or so I thought. Now if these M101-2s were graded 7s, 8s, 9s, or even 10's, then I could understand some of the prices that just got paid for them. But for PSA1a??? If one of those same M101-2 supplements come up for sale/auction in the next several months at an actual 7, 8, 9, or 10 grade then (with maybe the exception of the Mathewson), are we potentially talking a six figure price for it? If so, that is insane!!!!!

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Bliggity

I've been putting together the M101-2 set over the past couple of years. The ones in Memory Lane certainly had great eye appeal, but I believe this is just a function of people paying crazy money for PSA plastic. A couple years ago, there were a bunch of M101-2s that sold at auction (I think PWCC, but can't remember). It was the first round of PSA-graded M101-2s that I'd seen. They were all graded PSA A. It was clear that whoever had them graded just opted for authentication and not a grade. They still sold for 3x the price of a comparable raw copy. It made no sense to me. I imagine some of it must have been driven by registry lemmings given that M101-2s in PSA holders were very scarce. But there were also some non-registry purchasers who I thought at the time just flatly overpaid for no apparent reason. Since then, PSA A and PSA 1 copies have continued to rise, and based on the Memory Lane results are now more like 5-8x the price of a nice raw copy. Meanwhile, other nice M101-2s that are raw or in BGS holders are selling for maybe 1-2x their pre-pandemic prices.

I will admit that there's not much data here, so it's hard to know exactly what's up, but it just seems to me that it's another example of people paying up for plastic. I'll pass and wait for raw copies...I hope! I have no idea why someone would want a M101-2 graded in the first place.

I also acknowledge my bias as a M101-2 set builder who would like to continue to have access to reasonably-priced examples

Hi Dan,

I've been a coilector of the M101-2 set myself, just not paid attention much in recent year once I got 99 of the 100 supplements. And like you, I would much prefer to collect them raw, see no real need for getting them graded. i actually have two of them graded by Beckett, had in the earlier post said only one as I forgot about my 4.5 supplement of Harry Lord to go with my 1.0 supplement of Wajo/Street. A set collector is not going to worry about grading, especially when it comes to some of the double page team supplements. Don't believe any TPG has a holder for those anyway so not sure if they'd even try to grade them.

Anyway, I haven't been paying much attention to their prices for several years till I saw these ones from the ML auction this past week. Those are some insane prices, or so I thought, especially for PSA1s. I didn't even realize PSA had started grading these, any idea how long it has been? I knew Becket had been grading them all along, but never SGC for some odd reason. Still can't believe a PSA graded one would be worth that kind of a premium over a raw or Beckett graded version. It is obviously not normal set collectors, like you and I, pushing these prices, especially for just PSA1s. Unless it is a set collector(s) who want to put a PSA registry set together and figure to work on a set that no one else really has even started on yet. I guess that way they would be assured to have a top rated registry set just by having a PSA graded one when no one else has.

Just took a quick look at PSA's pop report for M101-2 supplements, and I was stunned again. They show only 102 graded supplements, in total, with none being graded higher than a 3!!!! And of the 102 graded in total, only 3 - 3s, and 4 - 2s (and of those 2s, one has a qualifier). There are 100 different supplements in the M101-2 set, and to date PSA has only graded 46 out of the 100 different supplements.

I was going to say that if it were the investors looking to buy into these M101-2s and pushing these prices so hard now, they would normally only go for the higher-end graded supplements. So why would they be spending so much on these PSA1s then? Well, based on the PSA pop report, I guess there really aren't any graded much higher. The Cobb/Wagner is one of the three highest graded, the Cobb is the second highest graded, the Jackson is one of the three highest graded, the Mathewson is one of the two highest graded, as is the Wagner also one of the two highest graded. So if some not-so-well informed investors are paying those kind of prices for M101-2s they think are literally the highest grades out there, based on PSAs current pop reports, they may be in for a surprise as I have to believe there a lot more, higher condition M101-2 supplements out there in the hands of collectors that couldn't care less about having them graded. Of course, with recent auction results like this for the M101-2 supplements, I guess that could start changing quickly.

[Bliggity]

Originally Posted by BobC

Unless it is a set collector(s) who want to put a PSA registry set together and figure to work on a set that no one else really has even started on yet. I guess that way they would be assured to have a top rated registry set just by having a PSA graded one when no one else has.

Just took a quick look at PSA's pop report for M101-2 supplements, and I was stunned again. They show only 102 graded supplements, in total, with none being graded higher than a 3!!!!

So if some not-so-well informed investors are paying those kind of prices for M101-2s they think are literally the highest grades out there, based on PSAs current pop reports, they may be in for a surprise as I have to believe there a lot more, higher condition M101-2 supplements out there in the hands of collectors that couldn't care less about having them graded. Of course, with recent auction results like this for the M101-2 supplements, I guess that could start changing quickly.

Bingo. And I found the info I had been looking for before.

In June 2020, Lelands auctioned a near-complete set of 96/100. All of the main stars were included and were graded PSA A; the rest of the set was raw. This was the first time I'd seen any in PSA holders, so PSA must have just started grading them not too long before that. The set sold for $12,998.40. The buyer immediately split the set and put each of the supplements for sale individually on eBay, with BIN prices on the graded ones about 3x or more of comparable raw versions (and the raw ones were also priced about 2.5x other raw comps). I thought they would sit forever in the eBay museum, but one collector immediately bought the Jackson and Cobb/Wagner and posted them here and on other sites. He noted with pride that the Cobb/Wagner was a "POP 1" and was the first and only copy that PSA had graded. I was floored.

Since then, PSA A and 1 copies have continued to do unreasonably well. Meanwhile, around the same time I bought an absolutely beautiful Eddie Collins in BVG 4.5 for $160. BVG cards in grades 2-3ish continued to stay around $125-250 for mid-tier HOFers, while PSA 1s were sometimes pulling $300 when there were better raw or BVG copies available. And now we have a PSA 1 Jackson alone going for $12,700, which was basically the price of the entire 96/100 set that sold 13 months ago.

Unlike most other prewar cards where the highest-quality examples are already in TPG holders, 99% of the highest-quality examples of M101-2s are in raw collections, along with tons of examples that would probably grade in the 2-4 range. Whoever is buying these either has no knowledge or understanding of the series, or is a registry addict, or both. As BobC mentioned, if the people holding the 99% of the nice raw M101-2s start grading them, the people who are paying $12K for a PSA 1 Jackson and $10K for a PSA 1 Wagner are going to be hurting.

But who knows, we'll probably look at this thread in 3 years and think they got the deal of the century.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Bliggity

Bingo. And I found the info I had been looking for before.

In June 2020, Lelands auctioned a near-complete set of 96/100. All of the main stars were included and were graded PSA A; the rest of the set was raw. This was the first time I'd seen any in PSA holders, so PSA must have just started grading them not too long before that. The set sold for $12,998.40. The buyer immediately split the set and put each of the supplements for sale individually on eBay, with BIN prices on the graded ones about 3x or more of comparable raw versions (and the raw ones were also priced about 2.5x other raw comps). I thought they would sit forever in the eBay museum, but one collector immediately bought the Jackson and Cobb/Wagner and posted them here and on other sites. He noted with pride that the Cobb/Wagner was a "POP 1" and was the first and only copy that PSA had graded. I was floored.

Since then, PSA A and 1 copies have continued to do unreasonably well. Meanwhile, around the same time I bought an absolutely beautiful Eddie Collins in BVG 4.5 for $160. BVG cards in grades 2-3ish continued to stay around $125-250 for mid-tier HOFers, while PSA 1s were sometimes pulling $300 when there were better raw or BVG copies available. And now we have a PSA 1 Jackson alone going for $12,700, which was basically the price of the entire 96/100 set that sold 13 months ago.

Unlike most other prewar cards where the highest-quality examples are already in TPG holders, 99% of the highest-quality examples of M101-2s are in raw collections, along with tons of examples that would probably grade in the 2-4 range. Whoever is buying these either has no knowledge or understanding of the series, or is a registry addict, or both. As BobC mentioned, if the people holding the 99% of the nice raw M101-2s start grading them, the people who are paying $12K for a PSA 1 Jackson and $10K for a PSA 1 Wagner are going to be hurting.

But who knows, we'll probably look at this thread in 3 years and think they got the deal of the century.

Dan, Thanks for that info, was not aware of that sale last year. Based on the timing and everything else going on, yours and my thinking sounds like it may be on the money then to possibly explain how those ML auction prices got so high, people basing their purchases on the PSA registry somehow. If that is the case though, I can't believe the extremely low number of PSA graded M101-2s wouldn't make someone stop and wonder why there are so few graded on their pop report. They could do an Ebay search and easily find supplements for sale, especially Beckett graded ones in much nicer shape as you pointed out. I totally agree with you that there are likely a lot of much nicer supplements out there in private collections, but the apparent timing of PSA starting to grade them only recently, coupled with the pandemic and the PSA grading backlogs and delays, have possibly worked to keep the pop report numbers for these so low, at least for now. With those prices realized in the ML auction I've got to believe it was noticed by others as well, and it will be interesting to see if the number of PSA graded M101-2s starts to jump in the coming months.

The big question then, as you alluded to, is if others do start getting many more of these supplements graded by PSA, what is the impact on future prices. I feel these ML auction prices are ridiculousy high for the grades, and conventional wisdom would make one think that if they bring more M101-2s out for grading that are in much nicer condition that will have a negative impact on the pricing/value of these PSA1 graded supplements. But as we've seen over the past year or so, conventional wisdom on pricing has gone out the window, and it is possible that the new collectors/money that appear to be the main culprits behind the price surges during this pandemic may view these ML auction prices this past week as a new starting point for M101-2 prices going forward. In which case, if higher graded PSA examples of these supplements start hitting the market, we may see prices going even higher. I guess only time will tell.

By the way Dan, love how you have your M101-2 collection raw and in the binders. Have mine the same way with one of those rigid comic/magazine backing pieces in each page to support the supplements so they don't accidently get bent or creased. What do you do for the the double page team supplements then, just leave them folded over in the binder page then?

One thing did strike me as odd though. This Newman collection had so many high graded examples of unbelievable cards, I couldn't believe he would have been satisfied collecting only PSA1 condition M101-2s, and can't believe he couldn't have found nicer examples. Newman clearly had an eye for condition and quality so you would expect he would know those M101-2s wouldn't have graded well had he originally bought them raw. Maybe that is another factor that played into the amazing prices those sold for. If bidders saw how high-end the rest of his collection was, they may have assumed that those M101-2s he had were also among the best examples in the hobby as well, and bid accordingly, despite them all being only PSA1s.

Will be interesting to see how this plays out going forward. Now if PSA would just start grading S74 silks as well...........

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Bliggity

Unlike most other prewar cards where the highest-quality examples are already in TPG holders, 99% of the highest-quality examples of M101-2s are in raw collections, along with tons of examples that would probably grade in the 2-4 range. Whoever is buying these either has no knowledge or understanding of the series, or is a registry addict, or both. As BobC mentioned, if the people holding the 99% of the nice raw M101-2s start grading them, the people who are paying $12K for a PSA 1 Jackson and $10K for a PSA 1 Wagner are going to be hurting.

Agreed. I don't even understand the registry addict element either, unless the object is to just have a set registered regardless of grade. Presumably any m101-2 premium submitted will garner at least a PSA 1 so long as it is intact and not colored. I always thought that registry geeks picked up 1's only as fillers, and usually when the subject was so scarce that you buy when you can and hope to upgrade. These are simply not that scarce.

The whole thing just looks like another PSA boondoggle--although I'm sure they will keep laughing all the way to the bank. They are just now grading these and have not set realistic standards--perhaps not any known standards. As registry addicts toss hundreds/thousands of dollars in grading fees to slab these premiums, there will be the usual battles over less attractive examples that somehow find their way into a PSA 5 or 6 holder commanding large dollars while many PSA 1s look no different to the eye, and then "experts" will grapple with explaining why the "technical grade" is so disparate.

And so it goes. Just another pecker-measuring contest in the works.

Here's one of my favorites-- the light swirls in the sky to the left of his head are found on all Bresnahans, who was the first premium issued in the m101-2 set:

[Bliggity]

Originally Posted by BobC

By the way Dan, love how you have your M101-2 collection raw and in the binders. Have mine the same way with one of those rigid comic/magazine backing pieces in each page to support the supplements so they don't accidently get bent or creased. What do you do for the the double page team supplements then, just leave them folded over in the binder page then?

Thanks Bob! I just use regular clear document holders that fit in a 3-ring binder. Then I found some nice, acid-free 8x11" cardstock pages in a nice chocolate color that matches the supplements. I put one cardstock page in each holder and then put the supplements on the front and back, so 2 per page. They sit nicely without any help, so they're not attached to the cardstock in any way. I only have one of the double-page team supplements so far, and I haven't figured out how I'm going to include it yet. If I can wrap the center seam around the edge of the cardstock so that the front and back show on opposite sides of the page without damaging the supplement, I'll probably end up doing that.

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Agreed. I don't even understand the registry addict element either, unless the object is to just have a set registered regardless of grade.

I think that's the entire point...grade doesn't matter, so long as you have a higher set ranking than the next guy! And with so few graded, you can grab that top ranking with a bunch of As and 1s.

Beautiful Bresnahan, BTW! I'm still missing that one.

[puckpaul]

Wait until they start grading my M101-1s!!

[Rhotchkiss]

Just commenting to say that image of Bresnahan is awesome- what a bad ass pic

He kinds looks like Ray Consella’s dad at the end of Field of Dreams

[VintageBen]

What do you think that does to the PC805 and PC796 which have same images as M101-2?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Agreed. I don't even understand the registry addict element either, unless the object is to just have a set registered regardless of grade. Presumably any m101-2 premium submitted will garner at least a PSA 1 so long as it is intact and not colored. I always thought that registry geeks picked up 1's only as fillers, and usually when the subject was so scarce that you buy when you can and hope to upgrade. These are simply not that scarce.

The whole thing just looks like another PSA boondoggle--although I'm sure they will keep laughing all the way to the bank. They are just now grading these and have not set realistic standards--perhaps not any known standards. As registry addicts toss hundreds/thousands of dollars in grading fees to slab these premiums, there will be the usual battles over less attractive examples that somehow find their way into a PSA 5 or 6 holder commanding large dollars while many PSA 1s look no different to the eye, and then "experts" will grapple with explaining why the "technical grade" is so disparate.

And so it goes. Just another pecker-measuring contest in the works.

Here's one of my favorites-- the light swirls in the sky to the left of his head are found on all Bresnahans, who was the first premium issued in the m101-2 set:

Todd,

Definitely agree with what you're saying. Will be interesting to see what happens going forward for sure.

And love that Bresnahan image and pose. This entire set has some unbelievable images in it. Always felt it was way underappreciated.

[Joshheckathorn]

I know I was blown away when I saw those prices. Just a couple months ago I posted a Jackson and Wagner for sale here on the board, and never had an inquiry on either. The prices were 1500 for the Jackson and 1000 for the Wagner. I ended up selling eBay after they sat for a while. I guess I should of held out and put a psa case on them for somebody to want them.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Bliggity

Thanks Bob! I just use regular clear document holders that fit in a 3-ring binder. Then I found some nice, acid-free 8x11" cardstock pages in a nice chocolate color that matches the supplements. I put one cardstock page in each holder and then put the supplements on the front and back, so 2 per page. They sit nicely without any help, so they're not attached to the cardstock in any way. I only have one of the double-page team supplements so far, and I haven't figured out how I'm going to include it yet. If I can wrap the center seam around the edge of the cardstock so that the front and back show on opposite sides of the page without damaging the supplement, I'll probably end up doing that.



I think that's the entire point...grade doesn't matter, so long as you have a higher set ranking than the next guy! And with so few graded, you can grab that top ranking with a bunch of As and 1s.

Beautiful Bresnahan, BTW! I'm still missing that one.

Hey Dan,

Ahhh, so chocolate colored cardstock pages, was wondering what you were using. I do the exact same thing with the white cardstock pages I got at a comic book store. The supplements fit nice and snug with no holders or adhesives needed, so like you, I have them front and back, two to a page also. As for the double page team photos, I do just what you suggested and have them folded around the cardstock piece and just slip the whole thing into the plastic page holder. That way when you get to the page with a team photo, you see the left side of the team photo on the front, and then the right side of the team photo when you turn it over to the back of the page. Since these double page team photos were originally folded over to begin with, I figured it was no big deal to display this way. I just made sure the edge of the cardstock they are folded around doesn't have a hard, sharp edge to cut into the supplement. You also want to make sure the cardstock piece for these isn't real tight inside the plastic binder and is a little narrower than the plastic binder page itself. That way the supplement doesn't get pushed up real tight against the edge of the cardstock it is folded around and tear. These M101-2s are over 100 years old and made of very fragile paper, so once I got these double page team photos in their binder pages, I leave them alone in the binder and never take them out of their pages and handle them directly, so as not to accidently tear them along the folds, which can be easily done if you're not careful. And if you are like me and display them in your binders in chronological order by their issue dates, you'll be happy to know it works out perfectly so all the double page supplements end up on their own page so you don't have to leave a gap and miss putting a supplement on the back of any pages.


Hey Todd,

And as for the PSA set registry, they haven't even graded half the 100 different M101-2s that are in the set yet. So if I had the inclination, and wanted to waste the money on grading fees, I could send my almost complete set of M101-2s into PSA for grading, and have the de facto #1 M101-2 registry set in the world. Unless someone else with a little nicer condition set has already got theirs in the PSA grading line ahead of me.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by puckpaul

Wait until they start grading my M101-1s!!

No kidding, if PSA grading did this to the M101-2 prices, can only imagine the impact on the M101-1s.

Now if I can only get them to start grading S74 silks........

[yanksfan09]

Originally Posted by VintageBen

What do you think that does to the PC805 and PC796 which have same images as M101-2?

The supplements are very nice. But I’d much rather have the thicker card stock postcards for sure! They should be valued at multiples of the paper supplements in my opinion!

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Joshheckathorn

I know I was blown away when I saw those prices. Just a couple months ago I posted a Jackson and Wagner for sale here on the board, and never had an inquiry on either. The prices were 1500 for the Jackson and 1000 for the Wagner. I ended up selling eBay after they sat for a while. I guess I should of held out and put a psa case on them for somebody to want them.

Sorry to hear that. Kind of what some of us were saying as to how we can't understand the auction prices for these, especially for PSA1 grades. I hope you actually did better on Ebay than what you were asking for on the BST, but am going to guess not.

Here's something to consider though, with those crazy auction prices and PSA's higher fees now, what would you have to pay to get one of these M101-2s graded by them now, especially for a Cobb, Wagner or Jackson? Would also guess that if someone was going to get M101-2s graded, they are likely sticking to the big names and HOFers as opposed to the common players. I don't think those commons will see the same meteoric rise in prices like the Cobb, Wagner, and Jackson supplements.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by yanksfan09

The supplements are very nice. But I’d much rather have the thicker card stock postcards for sure! They should be valued at multiples of the paper supplements in my opinion!

To each his own, both are more of a niche collectible and not the normal "cards" that most go after. I'm more of a premium/supplement person myself, as opposed to PCs. Not sure if one will really outdo the other, at least not for the major stars. The thing about the paper supplements is that they are much more fragile since they are paper, but much larger than the PCs also, so when you do find them in decent shape they look really great. Just have to be careful with them.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by VintageBen

What do you think that does to the PC805 and PC796 which have same images as M101-2?

Hard to say, no real precedent to point to in this case. Both supplements and PCs are treated differently than regular "cards" and not as mainstream. Still, with prices like those M101-2s got in the ML auction, you know it will get someone's attention and raise some interest in the PCs. What would really help the PCs though is if PSA would also grade them. Am not really familiar with either PC issue, are they graded by anyone now?

[mouschi]

I'm the guy Dan is talking about...I picked up the Cobb/Wagner, shoeless Joe, and wajo/street. I was also the underbidder for the 96/100 run last year. Man was i bummed...I was majorly excited when the singles popped and was able to get my 3 favorites!

This may sound odd to some, but once more people see these, I don't think there's going to be enough supply of them regardless if a slew of them are graded.

When I showed these to people, they had the same reaction as I did: they are jaw droppingly gorgeous. Many have expressed "I've got to get me some of these!" After having seen them for the first time. Before June of 2020, I didn't even know these existed. They are true hidden gems, and I think the psa slabs add "legitimacy" to them for many of that makes sense.

[drumback]

The ones with ads on the back are pretty cool too, although almost impossible to find.

[mouschi]

Originally Posted by drumback

The ones with ads on the back are pretty cool too, although almost impossible to find.

That's awesome! I never knew these even existed.

[drumback]

Sold my set in an REA auction in 2018, but I kept these three with ad backs, because they are so hard to find. Been collecting this set for many years and have seen fewer than ten ad backs.

[drcy]

They were undervalued before, but the Memory Lane prices are insane.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by mouschi

I'm the guy Dan is talking about...I picked up the Cobb/Wagner, shoeless Joe, and wajo/street. I was also the underbidder for the 96/100 run last year. Man was i bummed...I was majorly excited when the singles popped and was able to get my 3 favorites!

This may sound odd to some, but once more people see these, I don't think there's going to be enough supply of them regardless if a slew of them are graded.

When I showed these to people, they had the same reaction as I did: they are jaw droppingly gorgeous. Many have expressed "I've got to get me some of these!" After having seen them for the first time. Before June of 2020, I didn't even know these existed. They are true hidden gems, and I think the psa slabs add "legitimacy" to them for many of that makes sense.

Mouschi,

That is great, I am so glad you are happy with them. Can't believe you've never seen these until recently though. They've been around and aren't hiding. I remember at one of the old Cleveland Nationals talking with a guy who had about 30-40 raw ones for sale, in decent shape, who had told me he actually found them in someone's garbage and picked them out. I think they're beautiful, and a great set to work on. Check out the way Dan has his displayed in binders, which is the same way I keep mine.

And one of the nice things about this set was that you could always find them at reasonable prices....at least you used to. LOL The first ten issued in 1909 are especially nice, and loaded with some all-time great HOFers. They've all got that white border at the top of the supplement that says it a supplement from the Sporting News, St. Louis, and gives the issue date the supplement was included with. Be sure to check out the Ed Walsh pose on the 9/9/1909 supplement, it is fantastic. And they've got some great team photos that are double pages as well, including the Pirates with Wagner, and the Tigers with Cobb. They are huge and the images are really clear. The Tigers one is especially nice as the entire team is in suits and ties, and Cobb has a great bow tie for himself. You get a really good, clear, detailed look at some of these players that you won't find on their cards, and also great shots of the uniforms styles and equipment. Some of the pictures do look a little odd, and seem almost like a drawing as opposed to an actual photo. Not sure, but they may have done something like for a few of these. Check out the Vean Gregg and Richard Marquard supplements from 11/2/1911 and 11/9/1911 and you'll see what I mean. There's also some super single page team photos as well, one of the Red Sox from 10/10/1912 and then the NY Giants from 10/17/1912 . Another really fantastic image is of Clark Griffith standing on the dugout steps, looking out at the field from the 11/21/1912 issue, it is a fantastic shot and study of him. And possibly the weirdest image in the whole set is of Frank "Ping" Bodie from the 1/11/1912 issue. The way his right arm is in the photo just makes it look strange, and their appears to almost be something like a white border around some parts of his body, especially where the dark uniform is. Kind of makes it look like someone took a different photo of him and then cut it out, leaving a slight border around it in some places, and then attached it to a different background. If you find one you'll quickly see what I mean. The set also contains some portraits of various baseball owners/execs you don't normally see anywhere else, and even has one supplement from the 3/31/1910 issue with four major league umpires in their suits on it. Two from the AL and two from the NL, which includes two HOFers, Bill Klem and Billy Evans. So for someone looking for a contemporary issue of a HOFer during their active career days, you get a two-for-one with this supplement. And for whatever reason, the hardest supplement for me to ever find was of Ray Schalk, another HOFer by the way. No idea why, just never seemed to come across one.

That near set were you were bidding on last year that went for around $12K, depending on the condition and assuming it included all the major stars, that sounds about right to me for what that should have gone for. But now seeing a Jackson by itself going for that much only a year later just blows my mind. This recent ML auction included arguably the 4 most valuable supplements in the set, Cobb, Cobb/Wagner, Jackson, and Wagner, with the Jackson being the outright most valuable. If these do start taking off pricewise now, I'll be very curious to see if these price increases trickle down to the other HOFers in the set, and then to the common players. And another interesting fact/question, is there another set out there that has the likes of Cobb, Wagner, Jackson, Matty, WaJo, Speaker, Joss, and Cy Young in it, all during their playing days? The 1914 Cracker Jacks come close, but they're still missing Joss and Young. The 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1 set is even a little closer, but they're still missing WaJo. It is a heck of a set. And for a lot of the HOFers in it, these are some of their earliest images included in an issued set, aside from just a postcard or single photo.

Great pickups. Are you going to try for the rest of the set now? If so, good luck.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by drumback

The ones with ads on the back are pretty cool too, although almost impossible to find.

Those are fantastic. Never came across one for sale, at least not yet. LOL

Great move in keeping those at least.

[A2000]

Originally Posted by mouschi

I'm the guy Dan is talking about...I picked up the Cobb/Wagner, shoeless Joe, and wajo/street. I was also the underbidder for the 96/100 run last year. Man was i bummed...I was majorly excited when the singles popped and was able to get my 3 favorites!

This may sound odd to some, but once more people see these, I don't think there's going to be enough supply of them regardless if a slew of them are graded.

When I showed these to people, they had the same reaction as I did: they are jaw droppingly gorgeous. Many have expressed "I've got to get me some of these!" After having seen them for the first time. Before June of 2020, I didn't even know these existed. They are true hidden gems, and I think the psa slabs add "legitimacy" to them for many of that makes sense.

Very nice pickups, there can't be too many of these that survived the last 100 years.

[mouschi]

Originally Posted by BobC

Mouschi,

That is great, I am so glad you are happy with them. Can't believe you've never seen these until recently though. They've been around and aren't hiding. I remember at one of the old Cleveland Nationals talking with a guy who had about 30-40 raw ones for sale, in decent shape, who had told me he actually found them in someone's garbage and picked them out. I think they're beautiful, and a great set to work on. Check out the way Dan has his displayed in binders, which is the same way I keep mine.

And one of the nice things about this set was that you could always find them at reasonable prices....at least you used to. LOL The first ten issued in 1909 are especially nice, and loaded with some all-time great HOFers. They've all got that white border at the top of the supplement that says it a supplement from the Sporting News, St. Louis, and gives the issue date the supplement was included with. Be sure to check out the Ed Walsh pose on the 9/9/1909 supplement, it is fantastic. And they've got some great team photos that are double pages as well, including the Pirates with Wagner, and the Tigers with Cobb. They are huge and the images are really clear. The Tigers one is especially nice as the entire team is in suits and ties, and Cobb has a great bow tie for himself. You get a really good, clear, detailed look at some of these players that you won't find on their cards, and also great shots of the uniforms styles and equipment. Some of the pictures do look a little odd, and seem almost like a drawing as opposed to an actual photo. Not sure, but they may have done something like for a few of these. Check out the Vean Gregg and Richard Marquard supplements from 11/2/1911 and 11/9/1911 and you'll see what I mean. There's also some super single page team photos as well, one of the Red Sox from 10/10/1912 and then the NY Giants from 10/17/1912 . Another really fantastic image is of Clark Griffith standing on the dugout steps, looking out at the field from the 11/21/1912 issue, it is a fantastic shot and study of him. And possibly the weirdest image in the whole set is of Frank "Ping" Bodie from the 1/11/1912 issue. The way his right arm is in the photo just makes it look strange, and their appears to almost be something like a white border around some parts of his body, especially where the dark uniform is. Kind of makes it look like someone took a different photo of him and then cut it out, leaving a slight border around it in some places, and then attached it to a different background. If you find one you'll quickly see what I mean. The set also contains some portraits of various baseball owners/execs you don't normally see anywhere else, and even has one supplement from the 3/31/1910 issue with four major league umpires in their suits on it. Two from the AL and two from the NL, which includes two HOFers, Bill Klem and Billy Evans. So for someone looking for a contemporary issue of a HOFer during their active career days, you get a two-for-one with this supplement. And for whatever reason, the hardest supplement for me to ever find was of Ray Schalk, another HOFer by the way. No idea why, just never seemed to come across one.

That near set were you were bidding on last year that went for around $12K, depending on the condition and assuming it included all the major stars, that sounds about right to me for what that should have gone for. But now seeing a Jackson by itself going for that much only a year later just blows my mind. This recent ML auction included arguably the 4 most valuable supplements in the set, Cobb, Cobb/Wagner, Jackson, and Wagner, with the Jackson being the outright most valuable. If these do start taking off pricewise now, I'll be very curious to see if these price increases trickle down to the other HOFers in the set, and then to the common players. And another interesting fact/question, is there another set out there that has the likes of Cobb, Wagner, Jackson, Matty, WaJo, Speaker, Joss, and Cy Young in it, all during their playing days? The 1914 Cracker Jacks come close, but they're still missing Joss and Young. The 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1 set is even a little closer, but they're still missing WaJo. It is a heck of a set. And for a lot of the HOFers in it, these are some of their earliest images included in an issued set, aside from just a postcard or single photo.

Great pickups. Are you going to try for the rest of the set now? If so, good luck.

I think the fact that I hadn't seen them prior to 2020 is a testament to how vast our hobby is. Over the past couple of years, I have learned a lot about pre-war, primarily about issues that I knew nothing about previously. When you pigeonhole yourself into only new stuff for years (and a single player for me) nothing else really matters. Learning about these and others was like being a kid in a candy shop! It was almost as if someone said "hey, kid ... you think the new stuff is cool? You ain't seen nothing yet ... check these out ... NO ONE is talking about them!"

There are so many beautiful issues in this set. Here are some of my favorites aside from the Cobb/Wagner & Shoeless Joe.



I did a comparison in my article here about the beauty of the Shoeless Joe Jackson in comparison to his other main releases here:

https://tanmanbaseballfan.com/2020/0...-beauties.html



Don't get me wrong, I love ALL of those, but it is just funny how different they are from this:



I'm picky about this set, so I don't *think* I'll ever go after the entire run, but the vast majority of the pieces I love are the ones that have the faded background. I could look at them for hours. In terms of beauty from a sepia issue, I think the M101-2s are unbeatable!

Originally Posted by A2000

Very nice pickups, there can't be too many of these that survived the last 100 years.

Thank you!

[skelly423]

Originally Posted by BobC

Mouschi,

And another interesting fact/question, is there another set out there that has the likes of Cobb, Wagner, Jackson, Matty, WaJo, Speaker, Joss, and Cy Young in it, all during their playing days?

Ignoring the T206 which has Wagner, but isn't attainable to mere mortals, the only one I can think of is the M116.

[skelly423]

Mouschi, that article you wrote was the first time I had ever heard of the M101-2 set. I was fortunate a short time later to come across the Cobb-Wagner, which now holds a permanent place in my collection. I could never afford one now. I just wish I would have jumped on the Jackson at the same time

[mouschi]

Originally Posted by skelly423

Mouschi, that article you wrote was the first time I had ever heard of the M101-2 set. I was fortunate a short time later to come across the Cobb-Wagner, which now holds a permanent place in my collection. I could never afford one now. I just wish I would have jumped on the Jackson at the same time

It's funny because no matter how many times I see that same dang picture, it always gives me chills - even though I'm sitting next to it 2 feet away from me at all times. Great pickup!!!

[GeoPoto]

Originally Posted by BobC

Another really fantastic image is of Clark Griffith standing on the dugout steps, looking out at the field from the 11/21/1912 issue, it is a fantastic shot and study of him.

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1626358636

[BobC]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1626358636

That's it! Is that a great photo or what?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by skelly423

Ignoring the T206 which has Wagner, but isn't attainable to mere mortals, the only one I can think of is the M116.

The T206 set doesn't have Jackson in it though, and neither does the M116 set. That is what makes it tough, finding one set with all of them in it.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by mouschi

I think the fact that I hadn't seen them prior to 2020 is a testament to how vast our hobby is. Over the past couple of years, I have learned a lot about pre-war, primarily about issues that I knew nothing about previously. When you pigeonhole yourself into only new stuff for years (and a single player for me) nothing else really matters. Learning about these and others was like being a kid in a candy shop! It was almost as if someone said "hey, kid ... you think the new stuff is cool? You ain't seen nothing yet ... check these out ... NO ONE is talking about them!"

There are so many beautiful issues in this set. Here are some of my favorites aside from the Cobb/Wagner & Shoeless Joe.



I did a comparison in my article here about the beauty of the Shoeless Joe Jackson in comparison to his other main releases here:

https://tanmanbaseballfan.com/2020/0...-beauties.html



Don't get me wrong, I love ALL of those, but it is just funny how different they are from this:



I'm picky about this set, so I don't *think* I'll ever go after the entire run, but the vast majority of the pieces I love are the ones that have the faded background. I could look at them for hours. In terms of beauty from a sepia issue, I think the M101-2s are unbeatable!



Thank you!

Maybe not the set, but you might want to look for some of the other supplements. Check out the Clark Griffith one that GeoPoto has showing in post #35. Is that the faded background your were referring to? The scan doesn't do that image of Griffith justice.

Also, in regards to the Jackson supplement, I'm not sure you'll find a better image of him on any issue from his playing days. A lot of the cards are drawings and not pictures, and some of them are downright hideous. I still cringe whenever i see those cards that look like the players are wearing lipstick. Ugh!

[T206Collector]

Beckett does a nice job grading these. I don't like their holders for T206 cards, but I do like them for M101-2s.

But, I only collect them with signatures!

[the-illini]

Those signed supplements look great - I am surprised that they could even be signed without damaging them, given their fragility

[nolemmings]

Those are beautiful signed m101-2s. I have no objection to Beckett's grading on these, but their slabs, at least in the past (maybe they have improved) are awful. Here is an example of what I mentioned earlier--notice how wavy the sides of the premium look as it won't sit flat. Also, for those of us old enough to remember, the thickness is akin to three 33 1/3 LP record albums. Imagine how bulky that would be if you wanted to store most or all of the set, when a three-ring binder would do the trick and look nicer too.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by the-illini

Those signed supplements look great - I am surprised that they could even be signed without damaging them, given their fragility

They weren't 110 years old when they were signed though. But you're right, I wouldn't necessarily want someone to try writing on one of them today.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Those are beautiful signed m101-2s. I have no objection to Beckett's grading on these, but their slabs, at least in the past (maybe they have improved) are awful. Here is an example of what I mentioned earlier--notice how wavy the sides of the premium look as it won't sit flat. Also, for those of us old enough to remember, the thickness is akin to three 33 1/3 LP record albums. Imagine how bulky that would be if you wanted to store most or all of the set, when a three-ring binder would do the trick and look nicer too.

Thick is for sure. I wouldn't be surprised if you could drive a car over those without damaging them.

[the-illini]

Originally Posted by BobC

They weren't 110 years old when they were signed though. But you're tight, I wouldn't necessarily want someone to try writing on one of them today.

Good point - I am sure they were much less fragile 50-60 years ago. It is amazing how many survived in decent condition.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by the-illini

Good point - I am sure they were much less fragile 50-60 years ago. It is amazing how many survived in decent condition.

Yeah, there seems to be a lot more of these out there than you would have thought survived all these years. The paper on some of the ones you come across are actually still in pretty decent shape and probably not much different than when they were originally issued. You probably could still safely write on some of them today if you really wanted. I think the trick there is how they were stored over all these years and what kind of heat and humidity they were subjected to.

Also seems like 10-20 years ago you would see a lot more of them for sale than you do now though. Could just be me, but I wouldn't be too surprised if a lot of these are sitting in private collections now. Great pieces, great images, and pretty much every star of the day in this one set. Plus they are 8" X 10"s so you get a really good, detailed look at these players that you usually only see drawings of on smaller sized cards.

My guess is that them being flat and thin actually helped them to survive. Figured people just stuck them in a drawer or an album, and then forgot about them. Cards are smaller in overall size, but thicker and maybe more difficult to stash in a drawer or stack and put away safely. They didn't have top loaders and binder pages like we do today to store our cards.

One thing I always thought would make a really great framed display was if you could find a nice copy of one of these old Sporting News issues, and put it alongside the M101-2 supplement that was originally issued with it. Never seen anyone try that before. Might have to look into that now............

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Those are beautiful signed m101-2s. I have no objection to Beckett's grading on these, but their slabs, at least in the past (maybe they have improved) are awful. Here is an example of what I mentioned earlier--notice how wavy the sides of the premium look as it won't sit flat. Also, for those of us old enough to remember, the thickness is akin to three 33 1/3 LP record albums. Imagine how bulky that would be if you wanted to store most or all of the set, when a three-ring binder would do the trick and look nicer too.

They upgraded the holders a couple of years ago, and are now much thinner. Not much room to get "warped" so to speak.

[VintageBen]

Originally Posted by BobC

Hard to say, no real precedent to point to in this case. Both supplements and PCs are treated differently than regular "cards" and not as mainstream. Still, with prices like those M101-2s got in the ML auction, you know it will get someone's attention and raise some interest in the PCs. What would really help the PCs though is if PSA would also grade them. Am not really familiar with either PC issue, are the graded by anyone now?

the PC's are graded by PSA and SGC from my experience collecting them

[T_Hamilton]

Was on vacation and come back to this thread... Certainly helps re-entry as I own one of the three graded PSA 1 Joe Jacksons and my copy is a helluva lot nicer than the one that sold in Memory Lane (no crease or tape stains on the back).

[Leon]

My only M101-2 example in poor condition. Paid $82 delivered from ebay, 3.5 yrs aqo...

[BobC]

Originally Posted by T_Hamilton

Was on vacation and come back to this thread... Certainly helps re-entry as I own one of the three graded PSA 1 Joe Jacksons and my copy is a helluva lot nicer than the one that sold in Memory Lane (no crease or tape stains on the back).

Something doesn't make any sense at all then, how does that only get a 1 grade? Is there something wrong with your Jackson supplement that we can't see in the scan, like maybe a tear(s) in the paper? It boggles my mind that even though PSA has only graded a little over 100 of these M101-2 supplements so far that almost every single one of them has graded no better than a 1.0 or 1.5. Don't people submitting items for grades usually send in their bettter ones, looking for the highest grades possible? I can understand if some people want to maybe send in a not so great example of an item at first as sort of a test to see how the TPG handles and grades it and/or make sure they approve of the way it is encapsulated and the holder itself, but virtually everyone submitting these first M101-2s being graded by PSA? There are plenty of BVG graded M101-2 supplements out there that look to be fairly graded and are in much higher grades than anything graded by PSA to date. Yet from some of the scans of these PSA graded supplements I've seen so far, they look comparable to, and in some instances maybe even better than, higher graded BVG M101-2s. I have not been able to compare a BVG and PSA graded M101-2 side by side, let alone even see a PSA graded supplement in person, yet. Perhaps being ale to will answer a lot of this. Hey T_Hamilton, did you try asking PSA why your M101-2 Jackson only got the grade it did if it really is as nice as you say, and if you did, what did they say? I've always heard that they won't really tell you, which makes no sense to me since you're paying them good money to do a service for you.

Maybe the best way to finally get a real idea of what may be going on would be to have someone send in a much higher graded M101-2, still in its BVG holder, and ask PSA to do a crossover. Would love to see how that would end up. And if those M101-2 prices from the recent Memory Lane auction look to be holding true in the future, I can see someone looking to attempt such a crossover much sooner as opposed to later.

And as far as wondering if the effects of those recent M101-2 prices from Memory Lane's auction may have an impact on the pricing of these supplements going forward, I noticed on Ebay someone already has a BVG 7.5 graded M101-2 of the Cobb supplement up for sale at $75,000. Don't really know if this is directly related to the ML auction, but can certainly understand if it was. And if the Cobb supplement seller doesn't get any interest or takers on Ebay, this could be a perfect candidate to ask about crossing over to a PSA holder. That PSA1 graded Cobb supplement went for over $8K in the ML auction. If someone could get this BVG 7.5 Cobb to crossover to PSA at a comparable grade, what do you think that would be worth in comparison to the PSA1 Cobb then? Or do you think it would just end up destroying the value of that PSA1 Cobb?