Buying Slabbed cards...security...or the contrary?

[ullmandds]

With the flood of fake cards on the markets these days...many entombed in fake/altered slabs...is it less reassurance buying a card entombed in a slab...where the card cannot be handled to ascertain authenticity.

Has the system backfired on everyone????

[Leon]

There will always be those trying to beat the system. Knowledge is key. But it does seem the cheaters are getting better.

[drcy]

You have to handle raw cards to learn how to authenticate them, and certainly how to identify alterations. So it would be a mistake to collect only graded cards. Though I assume few here collect only graded cards.

[egbeachley]

1st rule of grading: If someone bought a fake or altered card that was graded high and improved their Set Registry, and he never found out about it, he would always be happy with the ownership and not harmed by the transaction.

[packs]

I give everything a sight test anyway. Sort of like a smell test. Fairly easy to spot repro's. I don't collect high grade cards though so no opinion on spotting alterations. But then again, you play with fire, you get burned.

[Cozumeleno]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

With the flood of fake cards on the markets these days...many entombed in fake/altered slabs...is it less reassurance buying a card entombed in a slab...where the card cannot be handled to ascertain authenticity.

Has the system backfired on everyone????

To your question about reassurance, I absolutely feel less secure with graded cards than I did even a year ago. I should be clear that I still think it is a safer route most of the time so I wouldn't swear them off or anything like that. I would probably still not buy a big-ticket item that wasn't graded, in fact. And the fact that I'm not dealing with five-figure cards makes it a little easier on me personally.

But I think it's hard to see things that have gone on with the 52 Mantles and not say it's at least a little unnerving.

[botn]

If by the system you mean the grading/encapsulating process, I would say it has no failed us, though I do believe there are some serious inherent flaws with 3rd party grading today. I think the internet, for the obvious reasons, has done away with card shows. If we relied more on buying cards at shows or in person I doubt there would be as many potential victims. It has never been more important than it is now to really know the reputation of the person you are buying from if you are going to conduct business over the internet.

[Exhibitman]

Greg's right.

I'd ratchet back the overall the sky is falling stuff. For the average items worrying about counterfeit slabbing is pretty much a non-issue. There just aren't counterfeiters going to the trouble of creating a fake that would only sell for $50.

A far more worrisome issue are the artists who can trim a card and get it past the TPGs into a high end holder. I don't collect that market but I do like to purchase nice raw Topps cards from the 1970s at shows, and I've noticed that certain issues have an increased incidence of trimmed cards in otherwise solid dealer inventories. I bought some at the National that looked good at the show but that were subtly trimmed. I figured it out only when I got home. I also weeded out a lot of questionable items at the show just comparing one card to others in the inventory. I suspect that the card trimmers out there are perfecting their techniques on low value cards and then selling their experiments to dealers as part of bulk lots.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by botn

If by the system you mean the grading/encapsulating process, I would say it has no failed us, though I do believe there are some serious inherent flaws with 3rd party grading today. I think the internet, for the obvious reasons, has done away with card shows. If we relied more on buying cards at shows or in person I doubt there would be as many potential victims. It has never been more important than it is now to really know the reputation of the person you are buying from if you are going to conduct business over the internet.

Good point

Just like Insider Trading for the Stock Market, can very well happen for the Card Grading Companies Insider Grading

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Leon

There will always be those trying to beat the system. Knowledge is key. But it does seem the cheaters are getting better.

+1 there. You still have to know what to look for and check when you receive a TPG card you've won at auction or purchased.

Best always,

Larry

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Cozumeleno

To your question about reassurance, I absolutely feel less secure with graded cards than I did even a year ago. I should be clear that I still think it is a safer route most of the time so I wouldn't swear them off or anything like that. I would probably still not buy a big-ticket item that wasn't graded, in fact. And the fact that I'm not dealing with five-figure cards makes it a little easier on me personally.

But I think it's hard to see things that have gone on with the 52 Mantles and not say it's at least a little unnerving.

I might feel less secure if I were looking for a 52 Mantle because of the possibility that the flip was fake and the holder resealed, but in terms of the far bigger general issue -- altered cards getting by TPGs -- I don't think that much has changed.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I might feel less secure if I were looking for a 52 Mantle because of the possibility that the flip was fake and the holder resealed, but in terms of the far bigger general issue -- altered cards getting by TPGs -- I don't think that much has changed.

Anyone (including me) collecting high grade cards is susceptible. I have to agree that the trimming and alterations issues are probably the biggest problem(s) in the hobby. The holders are getting better but need to keep evolving, so it seems. Also, Beckett is looking a little shinier today with their almost indestructible and virtually impenetrable holders. The other TPGs should take notice. I would hate to buy a high grade and expensive card in a seemingly good holder only to find out something is awry.

[Peter_Spaeth]

A fair amount of PSA's and possibly SGC's business comes from people cracking out and resubmitting, so I am not sure they want to make the holders as indestructible as Beckett's. Until seeing that Goodwin Mantle though, I had thought at least PSA had made a holder that could not be cracked open and then resealed.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A fair amount of PSA's and possibly SGC's business comes from people cracking out and resubmitting, so I am not sure they want to make the holders as indestructible as Beckett's. Until seeing that Goodwin Mantle though, I had thought at least PSA had made a holder that could not be cracked open and then resealed.

So you think the holder has been cracked and resealed on the Goodwin Mantle?

Anybody have any new info on this card/slab?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

So you think the holder has been cracked and resealed on the Goodwin Mantle?

Anybody have any new info on this card/slab?

Unless "they" are now able to fabricate their own holders, that must be the explanation.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Unless "they" are now able to fabricate their own holders, that must be the explanation.

this seems to be the case...not just fake cards...but fake slabs and fake slips.

[ullmandds]

i mean if there are people out there falsifying passports and currency...how hard could it be to fake slabs and plastic cases?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i mean if there are people out there falsifying passports and currency...how hard could it be to fake slabs and plastic cases?

Not a question of difficulty perhaps, but expense.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not a question of difficulty perhaps, but expense.

Sending a slab to china to be replicated can likely be done for a few thousand...if not significantly less...the upside is limitless.

I mean they knock off cars...ie land wind vs land rover evoque...and whole apple stores...how hard is it to knock off 2 very simple pieces of plastic?

[Snapolit1]

Grading companies make mistakes, like human beings involved in any other endeavor you can think of, but I don't know how you can seriously argue that buying graded cards doesn't give you some layer of added security. Any kid with a good color copies can try to fake a 54 Mantle and pass it off. A hell of lot harder to also getmin a case with a fake PSA tag.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Sending a slab to china to be replicated can likely be done for a few thousand...if not significantly less...the upside is limitless.

I mean they knock off cars...ie land wind vs land rover evoque...and whole apple stores...how hard is it to knock off 2 very simple pieces of plastic?

What's the basis for your cost estimate?

[ullmandds]

My estimate is based on the fact I have a friend who is an inventor of sorts and he makes proto types occasionally so I know what it costs to make. I also have a friend of the family whose business is knocking off products having them made in China and selling them here and around the world ... And he has told me a lot about dealing and costs in China .

Additionally to digitally scan a slab would be very simple and inexpensive and once you have this information finding someone to fabricate it cannot be difficult or expensive. Probably can easily be done via email .

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

My estimate is based on the fact I have a few friends who are inventors of sorts and are making Proto types occasionally so I know what it cost to make a Proto type. Additionally to take a digital image of a slab would be very simple and inexpensive once you have this information finding someone to fabricated cannot be difficult or expensive.

If you're right we're in even more trouble than I thought.

[glynparson]

I still saw more fake and heavily altered stuff for sale in the late 1980's and early 1990's before grading took hold. I think we need to stay vigilant and ebay needs to be held more accountable when they get informed of garbage and turn a blind eye to it.

[bxb]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If you're right we're in even more trouble than I thought.

Considering there is now a $400,000 profit in changing a PSA 6 flip to a PSA 8, and the Chinese can duplicate almost anything, heap o' trouble on the horizon.

[botn]

A card having been graded is not an excuse for the buyer to not know if what they are buying is in fact graded correctly. If you are relying solely on the flip to tell you the condition of the card then you are in trouble. Just like 30 years ago if you were relying solely on the dealer telling you what the grade of the card is instead or using your own judgement then you were in trouble back then.

Holders will be compromised but as has been pointed out and what I was alluding to in my first post--altered cards managing to find their way into holders has always been far more of a threat to the hobby. I have virgin 60s commons come back as trimmed yet not a day goes by where I do not come across an obviously trimmed 4 figure star card that is obviously altered.

It is my understanding the 52 Mantle in question was an actual PSA holder. Apparently the person doing this does not need to go to the expense of fabricating holders in China as he is able to use original holders.

[steve B]

There's really no need to send a slab to china.

The material used is most likely polycarbonate, and that can be printed in a 3d printer. Most hobby machines probably can't achieve the quality needed to produce a nice clear item, but the professional machines can.

Check out some of the items shown on this page and ask yourself how hard it would be to make a slab. Or a mold to produce some slabs if you had an injection molding machine. (Or even a press that can both heat and press at the same time)

https://www.makexyz.com/printer/medspark

And he charges just $1.75/ cubic centimeter.

The printer he uses can be had for about 20,000 used, sometimes less.

Steve B

[conor912]

This is why PSA is putting more effort into their flips. They've realized that the future of their security lies in holograms and barcodes and not the slabs themselves, which are now reproducable by just about anyone with a good 3D printer. The good ones are still very big and expensive now, but as they get cheaper, watch out. Any jackass will eventually have the tools to 3D print a slab and put a fake card in it.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by conor912

This is why PSA is putting more effort into their flips. They've realized that the future of their security lies in holograms and barcodes and not the slabs themselves, which are now reproducable by just about anyone with a good 3D printer. The good ones are still very big and expensive now, but as they get cheaper, watch out. Any jackass will eventually have the tools to 3D print a slab and put a fake card in it.

The same can be said about the flips. All those holograms are is more expensive ink that anyone that knows someone that works in a print shop can get.

[MetsBaseball1973]

I remain 100% fine buying graded cards from trusted sellers on eBay, or reputable auction houses. Anytime a thing is expensive and affords status there will be attempts to defraud-- it could be a Rolex or a Basquiat or a Mickey Mantle.

I try to educate myself, cultivate a network of savvy collector colleagues who can help me with an opinion, buy only from reliable sources, and above all scrutinize the card, to make sure it is not either over graded or one that slipped passed the proverbial goalie. In my experience thus far, this works out just fine.

Once we start talking about an invasion of Chinese slabs, I feel the discussion is on a slippery logic slope, the kind of sky-is-falling, tin hat hyperbole for which the Internet has become so famous, LOL.

[ullmandds]

Once we start talking about an invasion of Chinese slabs, I feel the discussion is on a slippery logic slope, the kind of sky-is-falling, tin hat hyperbole for which the Internet has become so famous, LOL.[/QUOTE]

Oh really?!?!?! What more is it going to take for you to see the light? We've already had a case of the mexican drug cartels presence in the phony vintage bb card sect...we've had purported reports of significant mafia intervention regarding price manipulation within the hobby...although this particular source is MIA. Is it so farfetched that China could be involved too??????

[Jobu]

So, does anyone have any solutions for features that TPGs could use in their holders that scam artists wouldn't be able to fake?

[Peter_Spaeth]

PSA used to have a fairly large watermarked (if that's the right word) hologram. The new one is a tiny little strip. Not sure if the larger one would be harder to replicate?

[ullmandds]

I would think employing techniques used in moneymaking and passports would be a good place to look.

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I would think employing techniques used in moneymaking and passports would be a good place to look.

Higher security measures means higher costs. I'm sure they want a balance of confidence/ security without making the cost to the consumer too high

[Jobu]

I wonder if a scannable microchip will end up being the answer. They would have to sell relatively inexpensive chip scanners (at the least something that auction houses could easily justify) and/or offer chip scanning services at shows or through the mail.

[CW]

Originally Posted by Jobu

So, does anyone have any solutions for features that TPGs could use in their holders that scam artists wouldn't be able to fake?

I'm not the first person to suggest this, but it would be nice if PSA scanned each card and kept them in either a public or private database for access when authenticity needs to be verified (and maybe it only really needs to be done on cards with a value over $100 or something like that).

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by CW

I'm not the first person to suggest this, but it would be nice if PSA scanned each card and kept them in either a public or private database for access when authenticity needs to be verified (and maybe it only really needs to be done on cards with a value over $100 or something like that).

To me, it seems absolutely ridiculous that they are not doing this now.

My only guess is that they have already dug a hole by not doing it for so long that it would be hard to push publicly. They would have to make the tough call that only photos for cards newly graded or sent for re-holder could be placed in the database. If you let people submit their own photos it would devalue the entire idea. What would be the point of letting people send in doctored photos?

Likely the storage for those photos in the past would have been expensive, however the business plan should have changed many years ago with the advent of cheaper storage.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I would think that think that PSA for the big cards can have email addresses associated with the real owners on CERT numbers so if you see a card for sael you can email the 'owner' to see if its for sale really

[Peter_Spaeth]

People want all these additional steps, yet how many here would complain if they increased their fees to pay for them?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

People want all these additional steps, yet how many here would complain if they increased their fees to pay for them?

I don't think its hard to link an email address to a cert number if its on the registry that info is already there. I would pay 5 dollars more to grade $1000+ dollars cards. Wouldn't it be nice on that recent Goodwin mantle PSA 8 auction to know who last had the cert number associated with the card and if they claim they aren't selling it..

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I would think that think that PSA for the big cards can have email addresses associated with the real owners on CERT numbers so if you see a card for sael you can email the 'owner' to see if its for sale really

Not a chance in hell PSA is going to give that information out.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not a chance in hell PSA is going to give that information out.

its not information..its an email address link ..so you don't even know the email...and its up to the seller to respond....like when you contact someone on the registry who has a envelope icon..that you just click and an email goes to the user........

[packs]

As the owner of cards I absolutely would not want PSA or anyone else giving out information that connects me, as an individual, to the card. In your example above you discuss a PSA 8 Mantle. Why would I want to advertise that I own that card? It invites theft.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

its not information..its an email address link ..so you don't even know the email...and its up to the seller to respond....like when you contact someone on the registry who has a envelope icon..that you just click and an email goes to the user........

The people you can contact on the registry WANT to be contacted. Big difference.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Jobu

So, does anyone have any solutions for features that TPGs could use in their holders that scam artists wouldn't be able to fake?

Wouldn't it be pretty simple to put some type of barely there invisible seal on the corners of a slab? That way if the slab were opened, the invisible seal would be broken? Seems like you could accomplish this with a UV seal you put on a corner. If the slab is ever opened, the UV seal would be compromised.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by packs

As the owner of cards I absolutely would not want PSA or anyone else giving out information that connects me, as an individual, to the card. In your example above you discuss a PSA 8 Mantle. Why would I want to advertise that I own that card? It invites theft.

I don't know who the owners of the #1 set are on the registry unless they put the info themselves...no one is advertising they own any of the cards ...I know if I was going to buy a $400k, it would be nice to know if theres another person out there saying they have the same Cert number and not selling it ..just saying..

Today on ebay I just asked a seller questions about when they submitted the card to PSA to help verify its real and the typical response is 'check the cert number with psa' cert number look up is really no longer the only thing needed anymore due to duplicate fake cards/certs out there..

[Joshchisox08]

I don't want to sway the subject too far off but can anyone help identify how one would be able to determine a fake flip/cert card?

Most would know I collect the lower end of the grading spectrum but I would like to know what to be looking for as possible fakes for slabs/slips/flips and slabs that have been cracked open and closed up again.

[packs]

Frosting along the edges is the classic sign.