A Tarnished Record

[oldjudge]

ARod just hit a grand slam homer in the Yankees-Giants game. He now has the record for career grand slams at 24. Who knows how many have been hit while he was juicing. He should not have been allowed to play now; the appeal process for suspensions is ridiculous. It is a joke that this clown takes Lou Gehrig's name out of an entry in the record books. This rant comes from a life long Yankee fan.

[caramelcard]

Stats mean nothing to me now.

[deucetwins]

Put an asterisk by it.

[kmac32]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

ARod just hit a grand slam homer in the Yankees-Giants game. He now has the record for career grand slams at 24. Who knows how many have been hit while he was juicing. He should not have been allowed to play now; the appeal process for suspensions is ridiculous. It is a joke that this clown takes Lou Gehrig's name out of an entry in the record books. This rant comes from a life long Yankee fan.

Agreed.

[ThoseBackPages]

God Bless America!

[drmondobueno]

Originally Posted by deucetwins

Put an asterisk by it.

Put an asterisk on A-fraud's forehead.

[yanksfan09]

I'm a Yankee fan too. A-Rod is a clown. I was for giving him a second chance after his first admission. I thought he was just a product of his era but since he did this a second time and is a habitual user, I feel no more sympathy for him.

Fans just have to realize for themselves who the true record holders are. They're not Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, A-Rod, etc.... They're Gehrig (GS), Ruth (154 game season & top legitimate HR/AB), Maris (162), Aaron, etc....

[HRBAKER]

I thought he was just a product of his era but since he did this a second time and is a habitual user...................


............and liar.

[kkkkandp]

A buddy of mine (who is a die-hard Red Sox fan) and I were discussing this today while we were playing golf. We easily agreed that the Yankees (and baseball in general) would be better off if A-Hole loses his appeal and the Yankees can void his contract and get him out of the profession.

Is there a more hated man in the game today? Does anyone believe or like this phony?

[cyseymour]

Of course they discovered Mickey Mantle's corked bat recently, so there's another cheater right there... little doubt in my mind that The Mick would have been on the juice if it had been available to him.

The Neikro brothers were also colossal cheats - those guys tried every trick in the book, and got caught, too. Phil still managed to make the Hall. I also think Rickey Henderson juiced towards the end of his career and still snuck in.

It is all a very grey line. A-Rod is a bozo, no doubt. But even without the juice, he would have been an amazing player as a 6'4" shortstop who could hit. Maybe not as much power, but a longer career. Stats would look more like Jeter's.

[HRBAKER]

Does anyone believe or like this phony?

His lawyers like him.

[nsaddict]

It is sad to see Lou dropped into 2nd on grandslams. The casual baseball fan may think A-rod is greater. But those that follow history knows the real deal.

162 game avg. according to baseball reference (I'm assuming it's prorated as they played fewer games back in Lou's era). But Gehrig dominates in every category except slightly fewer hr's.

A-roid:

162 Game Avg. 619(AB)121(R)186(Hits)41(HR)124(RBI).300(avg).559( slug)


Gehrig:

162 Game Avg. 599(AB)141(R)204(Hits)37(HR)149(RBI).340(avg).632( slug)

[HRBAKER]

You would have to be a VERY casual fan to think ARod was greater.

[kkkkandp]

Originally Posted by nsaddict

The casual baseball fan may think A-rod is greater.

The only thing A-Rod is better than Lou Gehrig at is cheating.

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by caramelcard

Stats mean nothing to me now.

Yep, exactly.

[D.P.Johnson]

Lou Gehrig had unimpeachable integrity. He was a true American hero.

[the 'stache]

Means nothing to me. Gehrig is still the all-time leader in grand slams. Hank Aaron is still the all-time leader in home runs.

[t206fix]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Hank Aaron is still the all-time leader in home runs.

Amen Bill - can we just ban the 80s/90s? If Shoeless Joe is a cheater, then these guys are much worse (except Pete Rose, of course).

[ThoseBackPages]

why would Pete Rose get a pass?

might as well ban the internet while we're at it

[Harliduck]

Being from Seattle of course I hate his guts...but the fact he broke a record right now when he has absolutely ZERO right to be playing just sickens me. It would be extremely hard to be his team mate right now. I just can't imagine.

[Rich Klein]

He has the record, MLB is not going to reverse the record but what we feel is fine.

And as generations go by, we're all buried and the only thing left are the numbers; Bonds will still have 762 HR's, A-Rod will still have 24 grannies, Roger Clemens will still have all the Cy Young awards and they all will (just as Pete Rose did) admit the truth some day

Rich

[novakjr]

While I agree with the general sentiment of this thread. Tainted, is tainted. But we are discussing a record for a fluky stat to begin with. While impressive, it's simply situational. Hell, I guarantee there's a ton of players that haven't even had 24 GS opportunities. It's hard to put too much value in a counting stat that doesn't hold all players on an even level based "solely" on what's in their control. It's not like taking steroids suddenly loaded the bases every time he came to the plate..

For the record. I've never held GS, W, S, RBI and a handful of others in a very high regard, in terms of comparisons to other players..

[brewing]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Means nothing to me. Gehrig is still the all-time leader in grand slams. Hank Aaron is still the all-time leader in home runs.

It's why I still love the all time home run leader card from the 79 Topps set. Aaron and Maris as the all time leaders.

[ullmandds]

As a child...the hallowed #'s of baseball lore were burned into the convolutions of my brain...and they remain to this day. I always thought Gehrig's GS record was pretty damn impressive and would be tough to beat.

While I don't like AROD...I still fell that this record is very impressive. The fact that some luck is involved in order to find yourself in enough of these bases loaded situations to even have a chance at it...makes this record even cooler to me!

[deucetwins]

Originally Posted by kkkkandp

Is there a more hated man in the game today?

Bud Selig

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's easy to be nostalgic and make assumptions about prior generations of ballplayers. Human nature doesn't change over time; if steroids had been available from 1900-1980 I think the same percentage of players would have been users. The 50s-60s generation used greenies because that was what was available, for example.

[deucetwins]

Gambling on or throwing games will get you banned. Baseball has never looked kindly on these two related topics since the 19th century. Spitters, corked bats, emory boards, alcohol (Grover Cleveland Alexander), and now Steroids or PEDs are seen as ways to cheat and/or gain an edge. Both of the two situations described above ruin the integrity of the game, but why has one been historically treated much differently than the other?

[Peter W Thomas]

As a life long Red Sox fan the Yankees have caused plenty of pain, but they were always the gold standard to be measured against. How this guy bambooseled them into that contract is beyond me. I enjoyed Dom playing against brother Joe , who had that Marlyn girl for a while and yes watching Williams last home run as an MIT freshman land about 50 feet from me in the center field bleachers - all in all not bad.

[PowderedH2O]

Let's say that ARod somehow gets past this suspension mess with a slap on the wrist (50-65 games). He comes back and starts hitting home runs at a decent pace. Do you want him to break Bonds' record? I actually would. As big of a tool as ARod is, Barry is the king. I'd rather see ARod have the record than Bonds. I'd rather see ANYONE in baseball break Big Head's records.

[Leon]

Drugs......? This was a trip...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vUhSYLRw14




.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by PowderedH2O

Let's say that ARod somehow gets past this suspension mess with a slap on the wrist (50-65 games). He comes back and starts hitting home runs at a decent pace. Do you want him to break Bonds' record? I actually would. As big of a tool as ARod is, Barry is the king. I'd rather see ARod have the record than Bonds. I'd rather see ANYONE in baseball break Big Head's records.

I see it of no matter who holds this inconsequential distinction now.

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by deucetwins

Gambling on or throwing games will get you banned. Baseball has never looked kindly on these two related topics since the 19th century. Spitters, corked bats, emory boards, alcohol (Grover Cleveland Alexander), and now Steroids or PEDs are seen as ways to cheat and/or gain an edge. Both of the two situations described above ruin the integrity of the game, but why has one been historically treated much differently than the other?

Alcohol is a way to gain an edge? Maybe to gain a hangover. Imagine Alexander and Mantle without it. Now if only I can get the county cops to believe that alcohol enhances my driving performance.

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by PowderedH2O

Let's say that ARod somehow gets past this suspension mess with a slap on the wrist (50-65 games). He comes back and starts hitting home runs at a decent pace. Do you want him to break Bonds' record? I actually would. As big of a tool as ARod is, Barry is the king. I'd rather see ARod have the record than Bonds. I'd rather see ANYONE in baseball break Big Head's records.

Interesting point there. I have to admit, I despise Bonds more than any player in the history of the game and wouldn't mind seeing his "record" broken.

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's easy to be nostalgic and make assumptions about prior generations of ballplayers. Human nature doesn't change over time; if steroids had been available from 1900-1980 I think the same percentage of players would have been users. The 50s-60s generation used greenies because that was what was available, for example.

I agree with this totally. We adapted to the Wild Card when purists went nuts. We adapted to the 162 game season. They used to play best of 9 in the world series. Spitballs were commonplace. Spiking was normalcy.

I dont think the juicers are going anywhere. They will keep coming up with ways to go undetected and break more and more records.

I still love the game, the history and the cards. I stopped worrying a while ago about the cheaters and just trained my mind to accept that the majority of the league cheats in some way.

Peter was correct. It's naive to think that Cobb, Ruth, Wagner etc would not have used an added edge if it was provided to them.

Hal Chase and the Black Sox got caught, but how many others went unpunished like A-Rod?

[HRBAKER]

So it's ok to cheat bc everyone would have if they could have?

Or...

I should be cautious about holding Gehrig in higher esteem than ARod bc I should assume that had he had the same opportunity to cheat/self-enhance he would of?

[bigtrain]

Originally Posted by Peter W Thomas

As a life long Red Sox fan the Yankees have caused plenty of pain, but they were always the gold standard to be measured against. How this guy bambooseled them into that contract is beyond me. I enjoyed Dom playing against brother Joe , who had that Marlyn girl for a while and yes watching Williams last home run as an MIT freshman land about 50 feet from me in the center field bleachers - all in all not bad.

No fan of A-Rod here, but the Yankees can afford both the best players and the best lawyers/negotiators money can buy. They saw a guy who was a perennial all-star, who averaged 40 home runs and 120 RBI in his first 7 years with them including 2 MVP seasons. They probably expected a slightly diminished output as he got towards the end of his contract, not a collapse. They took a calculated risk and they lost. Disagree that they were bamboozled.

[HRBAKER]

If they made their deal assuming that his first 7 year's output was "au natural" then they were bamboozled.

[bigtrain]

Originally Posted by deucetwins

Gambling on or throwing games will get you banned. Baseball has never looked kindly on these two related topics since the 19th century. Spitters, corked bats, emory boards, alcohol (Grover Cleveland Alexander), and now Steroids or PEDs are seen as ways to cheat and/or gain an edge. Both of the two situations described above ruin the integrity of the game, but why has one been historically treated much differently than the other?

Good point. Many Hall of Fame players were known to have doctored the ball with substances, sharpened belt buckles, rings and the like. That cheating is more or less accepted. Not if they are caught at in in a game perhaps but certainly it hasn't kept Gaylord Perry, Whitey Ford and others out of Cooperstown. What about the bowls full of amphetamines in locker rooms in the 60s? Weren't they PEDs?

[bigtrain]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

If they made their deal assuming that his first 7 year's output was "au natural" then they were bamboozled.

Sorry but I doubt that the Yankee management cared one way or another whether he was juicing or not as long as they got results. They only care now because he was caught.

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

So it's ok to cheat bc everyone would have if they could have?

Or...

I should be cautious about holding Gehrig in higher esteem than ARod bc I should assume that had he had the same opportunity to cheat/self-enhance he would of?

I didn't say it was OK. I just said it is a fact and it's not going away. I also never said any specific player would have cheated but that there was rampant cheating going on and one is being naive if they think no early players would have juiced if they had the opportunity.

We seem to deify the pre-war players but history is chocked full of guys that cheated from all eras.

[ethicsprof]

'hearing' you talk about dom, joe, Williams--and even Marilyn makes me a wee bit
jealous of your good fortune. thankfully, I was able to see musial, mays, mantle,
aaron, and a few other favorites. I haven't watched a major league game in decades.
I prefer to look at the vintage cards and photos and read the classic tomes of
baseball. Some of the recent baseball celebrities strike me at times to be akin to
those Kardashian folks. IMHO

great thread Jay.

all the best,
barry

[tbob]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Means nothing to me. Gehrig is still the all-time leader in grand slams. Hank Aaron is still the all-time leader in home runs.

And Maris is still the all-time leader in HRs in a season....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Misplaced nostalgia.

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/28/sp...hass.html?_r=0

[ZenPop]

Originally Posted by PowderedH2O

Let's say that ARod somehow gets past this suspension mess with a slap on the wrist (50-65 games). He comes back and starts hitting home runs at a decent pace. Do you want him to break Bonds' record? I actually would. As big of a tool as ARod is, Barry is the king. I'd rather see ARod have the record than Bonds. I'd rather see ANYONE in baseball break Big Head's records.

nope. There IS a record of just how great Bonds was without juice. He was a no-doubt Hall of Famer. There is no such record with Arod. Bond does NOT deserve to be the HR King. That's Aaron's crown (although I think Mays would have been much better than Aaron when you figure in the horrific HR parks Mays had to play in). I do have a bit of sympathy for Bonds in that... He KNEW he was the best player in baseball when McGwire and Sosa went on their roid-induced HR chase. They got all the pub and the glory and Bonds, being the maniacal egotist that he is, turned to steroids in reply. I only saw the best ever (Mays) play at the last few years of his career.. but Bonds was the best player I've ever seen... When he got to the Giants, he was, by all accounts, clean and he was dominating. He tarnished his own legacy and that's such a shame, because he was a HOF lock... now? Not so much.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Peter W Thomas

As a life long Red Sox fan the Yankees have caused plenty of pain, but they were always the gold standard to be measured against. How this guy bambooseled them into that contract is beyond me. I enjoyed Dom playing against brother Joe , who had that Marlyn girl for a while and yes watching Williams last home run as an MIT freshman land about 50 feet from me in the center field bleachers - all in all not bad.

Hello Peter

Ted Williams and I had a great conversation years ago in Cooperstown on HOF weekend. He did most of the talking, and I did most of the listening.

I told Ted..... "as a 10-year old kid, I rooted for him to hit a HR into the RF upperdeck seats in Yankee Stadium. And, that I cheered for him every-
time he hit one." ......which he did quite often.

He asked me...."since you're a Yankees fan, why did you cheer for me when I hit those HR's ? "

I told him that I liked him because his name was Ted....and, that I knew at the end of the season the Yankees would win, anyhow.

Ted laughed.

Then he asked me why I was a Yankees fan. I said that my neighbor 2 blocks away in Hillside, NJ was Phil Rizzuto.

Ted said...." I'll tell you this, that if Rizzuto had played for the Red Sox in those years, we would have been the Champions....and, not the Yankees ! "


Peter......I don't know if this story offers you some solace....but, there you have it, straight from Ted's mouth.


TED Z

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Misplaced nostalgia.

My Dad calls it, "euphoric recall."

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by deucetwins

Put an asterisk by it.

Syringe...

F*** A-Roid, Bonds and the rest of the Needle Mafia. I'd rather focus on the better men of the game: