PSA/DNA and boxing just don't mix.

[toybulldog]

An alleged contract signed by heavyweight contender Oscar "Ringo" Bonavena. Another PSA/DNA certified autograph that shows no resemblance whatsoever? Does PSA/DNA add false value to non-authentic items? Do they claim to perform a service that they don't actually perform?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/380535748457...84.m1438.l2649



Was this even a close miss?



PSA/DNA, it's Oscar Bonavena not George Bonavena.



Pathetic, inept, fraud?

[Exhibitman]

WTF, Ringo's handwriting is worse than mine...

I think sometimes PSA/DNA issues a letter because an item 'should' be what it says it is. They probably figure that a legal document wouldn't be bad so it must be good.

[toybulldog]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

WTF, Ringo's handwriting is worse than mine...

I think sometimes PSA/DNA issues a letter because an item 'should' be what it says it is. They probably figure that a legal document wouldn't be bad so it must be good.

I believe that is a possibility also and if that's the case then the person who submitted this item was not provided the service they paid for as advertised on the PSA/DNA web site:



Would an actual "autograph structure analysis" and "side-by-side comparison" reveal the same or the direct opposite of PSA/DNA's findings? If there are no consistent exemplars is PSA/DNA showing a favortism to a certain submitter? Proceed with caution when using this non-evidence based company.

[RichardSimon]

If there is a way to take a shortcut, then PSA will take it.
They probably did not even look at the Bonavena signature on the contract.
Just assumed it was good,,
Nice work once again.

[travrosty]

just pathetic, they just dont have a clue, do they, they must exemplars no one else has to approve that one.

the listed it as george, because George-Ringo, you get the idea. Paul and John next.

[chaddurbin]

Joe Orlando should contact the members here to buy the boxing exemplars. Seems like they (and JSA?) Know as much about boxing as me.

[travrosty]

there are ebay emr reporters watching this thread and let's see if they have the guts to report a psa authenticated item. i doubt it because I have said all along that the psa defenders don't want to tell on one of their own due to bias.

this item, will definitely go to the conclusion of its auction and sell despite being outed here as definitely no good. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to see that psa certed another autograph that doesn't pass muster.

[Exhibitman]

"emr"

What does that mean?

[travrosty]

enhanced member reporters, people who can just contact ebay and get something pulled right away by their word.

when you see a bad mantle, then see someone say 'poof', its gone, thats an emr reporting it and getting it pulled right away, these bad boxing are days and days and days old and they never get pulled. emr's are reluctant or unwilling to report a bad psa or jsa item.

[travrosty]

enhanced member reporters, people who can just contact ebay and get something pulled right away by their word.

when you see a bad mantle, then see someone say 'poof', its gone, thats an emr reporting it and getting it pulled right away, these bad boxing are days and days and days old and they never get pulled. emr's are reluctant or unwilling to report a bad psa or jsa item.

[Plinvestments]

How does ebay go about selecting emr's?

[travrosty]

its an inside process, you have to know someone and get in that way.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by travrosty

enhanced member reporters, people who can just contact ebay and get something pulled right away by their word.

when you see a bad mantle, then see someone say 'poof', its gone, thats an emr reporting it and getting it pulled right away, these bad boxing are days and days and days old and they never get pulled. emr's are reluctant or unwilling to report a bad psa or jsa item.

Ebay is reluctant to pull PSA or JSA items, it is not the fault of the emr's.

[Plinvestments]

Originally Posted by travrosty

its an inside process, you have to know someone and get in that way.

Got it, so its not based on experience or skill.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Plinvestments

Got it, so its not based on experience or skill.

that's right, its not based on any particular experience or skill, it's based on contacts and who you know.

emr's are reluctant to report authentication companies items as well, its a fault on two fronts.

i have let an emr know of these items and he says he doesnt have time to report them, of course these are items with a large company cert. he doesnt have 5 minutes evidently to send an email along with the proof on these pages. that's what we are all up against. fakes are fakes. certed by these companies or not.

but we have to pull teeth to get a lot of places to pull an item that has an authentication company cert. the reasoning is that the auction houses don't want to erode consumer confidence in the authentication company. if the public sees these certed items being pulled for authenticity reasons, then the public will wonder if these companies are doing a good job and if it is worth it to send the items in.

then the relationship between the auction house and the authentication companies are now strained because the auction house pulled their cert, and these companies are suppose to be pre-approved authenticators and their certs the so called gold standard.

[travrosty]

if they are reluctant to pull these certed items, then why do the emr's put up with it? i wouldnt want to be one if there are double standards, they can figure out their own fakes if they are playing favorites. just another conflict of interest in the autograph hobby. if there wasn't enough already.

all emr's should quit unless they play fair and remove ALL the fakes, not just the fakes that aren't their buddies fakes.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by travrosty

if they are reluctant to pull these certed items, then why do the emr's put up with it? i wouldnt want to be one if there are double standards, they can figure out their own fakes if they are playing favorites. just another conflict of interest in the autograph hobby. if there wasn't enough already.

all emr's should quit unless they play fair and remove ALL the fakes, not just the fakes that aren't their buddies fakes.

agreed and sickening. Glad I'm not collecting Boxing.

[D. Bergin]

I wonder what the story is behind the contract. Was it a second party that signed for Bonavena? The Teddy Brenner sig certainly looks good.

[travrosty]

i would like to know too. i have seen kearns sign for dempsey so contracts not necessarily iron clad just because they are contracts.

[toybulldog]

Originally Posted by travrosty

i would like to know too. i have seen kearns sign for dempsey so contracts not necessarily iron clad just because they are contracts.

As is the case with this 1949 alleged Joe Louis signed contract. Louis' signature is in the hand of his manager Marshall miles but is "authenticated" by guess who?





Here are some authentic Joe Louis signatures from 1949 along with the year prior and the year after. Did Joe Louis' signature change on this one particular day in 1949 so it could be authentic for one of PSA's loyal customers or for one of PSA's auction houses that promotes their services?



Pathetic, inept, fraud, all of the above?

[travrosty]

let me guess, steve grad , psa again?

the joe louis experts for sure.

[travrosty]

2 hours left and the bonavena contract still up on ebay with 151 dollar bid.

a friend of mine asked me about it and how much he should bid. i told him the truth. he thanked me and said that he was glad he knew me and saved himself some money.

the emr's and supposedly ebay know about this travesty and it is still up and my bet all along was that it will go all the way to completion and sell.

what a waste. people have the ability to do something about it but won't.

[Plinvestments]

These emr's must be compensated well or why would they do it. Its greed all around.

[travrosty]

everything is all about the cash. if it was about the autographs, these autographs would be taken down.

[toybulldog]

Blow taps for another unsuspecting buyer. It's about protecting an image by turning ones head the other way, a double standard. Reminds me of a certain college football program which chose a similar path recently, but this is only autographs. Ebay was forwarded the information well in advance of the auction close. This is what is going on in our hobby people, FBI, Bureau of Consumer Protection take note. Press for answers.

[travrosty]

.......

[travrosty]

a non certified mickey mantle that they dont like is off ebay in 30 minutes? "poof" they say, its gone. they arent sending exemplars with their emails, just "here is a bad one"


i let them know two days ago and this bonavena sold, and there are multiple exemplars. it just happen to have a favored cert with it, that was totally a coincidence i suppose.

meanwhile wife signed sonny liston with the cert is still up there also and that was over a week ago they were notified. where's the "poof"?

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by Plinvestments

These emr's must be compensated well or why would they do it. Its greed all around.

EMRs are volunteers who can report items within their area of expertise. They are paid nothing.

But please... Let's continue to pound on volunteers who spend hours of their personal time removing thousands of fakes from eBay every week. They should all be condemned because this item didn't get removed for whatever reason.

[travrosty]

its not "whatever reason", it is because it is a protected psa certed item, and we all know it.

you are defending the status quo, and the status quo stinks.

start volunteering to pull a bad psa or jsa item. it won't happen though.

the last couple of days there is nothing anyone could do to get this one pulled. it's not just "whatever", like it was some glitch. it wasn't a glitch.

it was on purpose, emr's didnt want to report it, and the rest of us who did report it. WITH PROOF, watched it go to sale for a quarter of a grand, because ebay isn't interested in pulling items that have a protected cert from one of their buddies.

its the buddy-buddy system that has been plaguing the hobby for years, and continues because people just chalk it up to "whatever reason" that's code word for PSA and JSA certs get special treatment. The family and friends program.

I had an emr specifically ask me for the boxing fakes so he can report them and help get them off ebay, until i reported psa and jsa items, then he wasn't interested, said he didn't have time, couldn't take 10 seconds to forward my email to ebay, and this had proof with exemplars. So don't make it some type of glitch. I also sent him the bad Sonny Liston PSA signed photo, it's still up too.

why don't you have a problem with this unfair protectionism? Don't you want it fair and ALL fakes taken off ebay? There is a fake joe louis with jsa and its been there a year and we can't get it down by reporting it.

[Mr. Zipper]

I typically ignore you simply because you have proven time and time again to be someone beyond reasoning and frankly not worth my time. But I stepped forward this time to defend the good work EMRs do because I couldn't sit back and watch you spread your warped misinformation about a program and people you know little about.

How do you know this was not reported by an EMR? Perhaps it was. An EMR report does not mean an item will be unquestionably removed.

I don't know eBay policy regarding their approved authenticators. But if eBay policy is to not remove items certed by their approved authenticators, your problem is with that policy, not the EMRs who may very well be reporting it.

Of course, next you'll propose that EMRs should all quit because the system is not perfect. In your world, quitting and letting thousands of fakes pass is the right thing to do to prove a point.

This thread is the perfect example why EMR identities are kept confidential. Why would people who volunteer hours of their time and freely offer their expertise want to deal with cretinous attacks from unbalanced misanthropes?

[travrosty]

thanks for the compliment, i know these "authenticated" listings weren't reported by an emr because an emr asked me for the listings, i gave it to him, and then he told me he didnt report it, OK?

lets catch 1000's of fakes, but let the psa and jsa fakes get a pass. sounds like a plan to me. some fakes are more equal than others. if a restaurant didn't admit some people because of affiliation, would you walk right in, or demand they serve everyone fairly and equally? You could make the argument that some people still get to eat, and that's better than none, why waste all that food just because a few are turned away unfairly.

i stand on principle. they shouldn't help ebay if ebay isnt going to do the right thing and pull ALL fakes. Why are you defending some of the fakes? because they have psa and jsa certs? if they had GA and ACE certs, would you think it was okay if they were the protected ones? I think not.

i know of 7 people who are emr's. some are psa and jsa defenders like you, who authenticates for jsa.

from one unbalanced misanthrope to another, let's not pretend you didn't have the same opinion I do about the whole authentication shell game. from Baron's "Kinda Sorta Genuine."

--------------------------------------------------------------------

THE RECENT ARTICLES IN THE TWO collectors' magazines have only added to the questions about the company. The bi-monthly Pen and Quill, put out by the oldest autograph collectors' club in the world, has published what amounts to a five-page indictment of PSA/DNA's authentication process, entitled "Who's Watching the Watchmen." "It has become apparent that PSA/DNA has some weakness in authenticating autographs outside the sports field -- as well as some glaring oversights from within the sports area," writes author Steve Zarelli, a member of the collectors club. "It's not uncommon to see a PSA/DNA [expert] 'authenticating' an autograph that is certainly not authentic." The Bottom Line: The stock, which has fallen 26% from its 52-week high, could drop another 25% amid questions of credibility, the loss of a big coin customer and high costs in a diamond business.Zarelli told of a collector who successfully bid for a game-used bat belonging to Ernie Banks, complete with a certificate of authentication from PSA/DNA. "What autograph?" Zarelli writes, "The bat isn't signed by anyone." Similarly, a "signed" Mark McGwire baseball card, authenticated and graded by PSA/DNA, turned out to be a rubber-stamped signature rather than hand-written, he writes.


OOOOOOOOOPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by travrosty

thanks for the compliment, i know it wasnt reported by an emr because an emr asked me for the listing, i gave it to them, and then they told me they didnt report it, OK?

There are many EMRs. Because the one you sent it to didn't report it doesn't mean none of the others did. What are you failing to grasp?

My participation in this thread was to defend the EMRs -- volunteers who you have sickeningly attacked and smeared. People who donate their time and expertise to take more forgeries out of circulation in one week then you will in your lifetime.

You keep dredging up an article I wrote over 7 years ago. Yes, I was critical of PSA then. They are not perfect now and obviously have areas in need of improvement. But I don't choose to bash them publicly ad nauseum. I don't see them as the biggest problem in the hobby. By the way, I have provided feedback to them and guess what? They were willing to listen. Decency and professionalism get results.

Perhaps you should look at modifying your tactics. The turd-in-the-punch-bowl approach ain't working.

[travrosty]

they certain do not listen, we all know that. I didn't put the turd in the punchbowl, i am just letting people know it is there and not to drink. you are taking a big drink and saying it is delightful.

I am not smearing emr's. Since they are anonymous, they can't be smeared. I am just saying they should stand up for what is right and not help ebay unless ebay wants to pull ALL the fakes.



1. How many psa and jsa fakes have you ever reported to ebay?

2. How many of those did they pull?

3. give me examples of how psa listened and how they took your concerns and made a change for the better?

[Mr. Zipper]

LOL

I'm not playing your foolish game. I never claimed to be an EMR. But, I have good friends who are and they do more to protect the hobby than all of your attacks ever will. I am grateful there are generous collectors and dealers who donate their time and knowledge to a program that significantly reduces the junk entering the market.

Have a Merry Christmas, Travis. My sense is you need some inner peace in your life.

[Big Dave]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

I don't know eBay policy regarding their approved authenticators. But if eBay policy is to not remove items certed by their approved authenticators,

GAI is / was on their approved authenticator list, yet they have no problem pulling those, fake or not.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

There are many EMRs. Because the one you sent it to didn't report it doesn't mean none of the others did. What are you failing to grasp?

My participation in this thread was to defend the EMRs -- volunteers who you have sickeningly attacked and smeared. People who donate their time and expertise to take more forgeries out of circulation in one week then you will in your lifetime.

You keep dredging up an article I wrote over 7 years ago. Yes, I was critical of PSA then. They are not perfect now and obviously have areas in need of improvement. But I don't choose to bash them publicly ad nauseum. I don't see them as the biggest problem in the hobby. By the way, I have provided feedback to them and guess what? They were willing to listen. Decency and professionalism get results.

Perhaps you should look at modifying your tactics. The turd-in-the-punch-bowl approach ain't working.

+100 Thanks Steve. Right on the money.

[RichardSimon]

One member of the EMR team can get JSA and PSA items removed. He has in the past but I am not so sure how active he is now.

[toybulldog]

EMR, that's a new one to me. I'd hardly call what Travis does "bashing". The word bashing makes it sound one-sided like PSA, JSA, EMR's are all defenseless which they are not. Each and everyone one can come on here to discuss comments made or to discuss their non-evidence based opinions but they choose not to. I wonder why? TPA's give their opinions on other peoples autographs on a daily basis, what goes around comes around only we do it with evidence and will continue to do so. I've never seen Travis "authenticate" a $25,000 item when there is indubitable evidence to the contrary and I don't see him pretending to be something he is not just to make a buck.

"Fraud, favortism, conscience for sale"
would make a good company motto for some?

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

LOL

I'm not playing your foolish game. I never claimed to be an EMR. But, I have good friends who are and they do more to protect the hobby than all of your attacks ever will. I am grateful there are generous collectors and dealers who donate their time and knowledge to a program that significantly reduces the junk entering the market.

Have a Merry Christmas, Travis. My sense is you need some inner peace in your life.

i see you say you never claimed to be an emr, but you didnt say you are not one either. nice try. they do a lot to protect psa and jsa, that i agree.

we got heritage to stop lying and stop saying that jsa had given auction loa's to live items up for auction when jsa hadnt seem them yet. i didnt see you or your buddies protecting the hobby by joining us to get this egregious practice stopped. it cost us our bidding accounts at heritage, but glad you found a pair and joined us to protect the hobby, NOT!

you want me to believe that if you see a forgery on ebay, you have no one to email or call to let ebay know. i refuse to believe that. i asked how many psa or jsa certed fake items you reported, and how many they removed, that was too hot of a potato for you to answer, since if you admit you reported a jsa item, jsa might not like it?

so i assume the answer to my question is zero and zero.

i will answer any question you have, why are you avoiding straight forward questions? have something to hide?

[Mr. Zipper]

Hi all

Just for the record, the previous post has a number of bad assumptions and total inaccuracies. But, I will not rebut them point by point. I've learned my lesson that you can't have a rational discussion with the irrational and will go back into ignore mode with Mr. Roste.

Have a happy holiday and healthy 2013.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by toybulldog

EMR, that's a new one to me. I'd hardly call what Travis does "bashing". The word bashing makes it sound one-sided like PSA, JSA, EMR's are all defenseless which they are not. Each and everyone one can come on here to discuss comments made or to discuss their non-evidence based opinions but they choose not to. I wonder why? TPA's give their opinions on other peoples autographs on a daily basis, what goes around comes around only we do it with evidence and will continue to do so. I've never seen Travis "authenticate" a $25,000 item when there is indubitable evidence to the contrary and I don't see him pretending to be something he is not just to make a buck.

"Fraud, favortism, conscience for sale"
would make a good company motto for some?

i also do not see where presenting proof with exemplars is known as "bashing"

the tpa's never show up to explain their "opinions" I never made a dime but those raking it in dont seem to want or be able to explain how they make such crazy mistakes.

i never authenticated 25,000 dollar mistake and then sweep them under the rug. I gave a 75 dollar refund once on a boxing autograph I sold that I trusted the seller that I bought from. I learned my lesson and I don't go on blind trust, and I wish the tpa's would learn the same lesson, but it has taken them more than one $75 dollar mistake.

they make numerous crazy mistakes involving thousands and thousands of dollars and we can't figure out a way that they are making these mistakes with exemplars. We can only surmise they are not using exemplars or using people to authenticate who are grossly unqualified to authenticate boxing.

Of course all of this is my fault for pointing it out.

[toybulldog]

Perhaps the owner of the Marciano signed gloves can post his item on ebay:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...rocky+marciano

If I'm reading everything correctly the fact that his item has been "authenticated" by PSA/DNA means that it will stay up until completion and sell to the highest bidder. If I forward the indubitable evidence to ebay showing that the item is indeed a fake the PSA/DNA LOA will override the indubitable evidence? Is that fraud prevention or fraud promotion?

[Big Dave]

I vote ....fraud promotion.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by toybulldog

Perhaps the owner of the Marciano signed gloves can post his item on ebay:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...rocky+marciano

If I'm reading everything correctly the fact that his item has been "authenticated" by PSA/DNA means that it will stay up until completion and sell to the highest bidder. If I forward the indubitable evidence to ebay showing that the item is indeed a fake the PSA/DNA LOA will override the indubitable evidence? Is that fraud prevention or fraud promotion?

i doubt it is fraud prevention so that only leaves one other option.

psa and jsa items gets a free pass, what an autograph world we live in when favoritism rules the day. i wonder what type of business arrangements they have?

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by toybulldog

Perhaps the owner of the Marciano signed gloves can post his item on ebay:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...rocky+marciano

If I'm reading everything correctly the fact that his item has been "authenticated" by PSA/DNA means that it will stay up until completion and sell to the highest bidder. If I forward the indubitable evidence to ebay showing that the item is indeed a fake the PSA/DNA LOA will override the indubitable evidence? Is that fraud prevention or fraud promotion?

i doubt it is fraud prevention so that only leaves one other option.

psa and jsa items gets a free pass, what an autograph world we live in when favoritism rules the day. i wonder what type of business arrangements they have?

[travrosty]

there is no fraud prevention at ebay, i dont think there ever has been fraud prevention at ebay. when a nameless authenticator at a "big box" authentication service can overrule proof simply because their stupid sticker is on the item, then the terrorists have won.

there is more information coming on this travesty of a development and its not pretty. online autographs at this auction house is on its way down the tubes with these dumb fraudulent coa's leading the way. its pathetic.

[thenavarro]

Originally Posted by travrosty

then the terrorists have won.

Did you seriously just relate autograph authentication companies to terrorists?

There are times your ramblings come off as having validity to them, especially related to boxing autographs, and then something loony like the above is posted. You will do your cause a much greater service by not using absurd hyperbole IMO.

Mike

[travrosty]

you figured out it was hyperbole, did you? thats a good start. It's a popular saying that a lot of people say relating to a lot of things NOT related to actual terrorism, but it is a saying that gets a point across, and I know you know what that point is but you have to try to make some other nonsensical point about actual terrorism that doesn't relate here.

Have you ever heard of other such sayings like "don't make a federal case out of it!" well, was that person actually filing a federal lawsuit or is it a play on words? Can you figure it out, or you just want to try to bust someones balls over terrorism when you know what is meant by the phrase in this CONTEXT!!!

Aren't you busy writing another psa fluff piece to bother with this? There is a huge problem with autographs and ebay and how jsa and psa items get protected, and you go after syntax??? It's not just boxing, it's ALL protected psa and jsa autographs on ebay, but you like psa and jsa, don't you, so no problem from where you sit, is there?

now go bother curt schilling.

http://espn.go.com/espn/page2/index?id=4951753

[thenavarro]

Originally Posted by travrosty

"don't make a federal case out of it!"

Somewhere Alanis is smiling.

[sports-rings]

Very interesting post this week at the Haulsofshame website.

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=15698