Video Spectral Comparator

[thecatspajamas]

Anybody know if this is the same machine that PSA uses?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/260920483879...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

If I had more sacks of money laying around, I'd be tempted to put in a bid. I'm not sure what one of those costs new, but I'm guessing it's considerably more than that. Just thought it was interesting as I've never seen one for sale elsewhere (not that I've been looking).

[travrosty]

John Reznikoff, consultant for PSA and JSA says a video spectral comparator is not available to the general public, so it cant be one because he wouldn't say it if it wasn't true.

But for autograph authentication, get a black light and save the cost.


from his bio:

The devices he (Reznikoff) uses include: the Video Spectral Comparator , a $30,000 machine which is not available to the general public.

So it is something else.

[drc]

If it's not available to the public, how did John get it? Unless he works for the Army, Treasury Department or such (which I assume he doesn't), he's part of the public isn't he?

Unless he means it's not commercially sold to the public, and he found his at a garage sale.

My dental hygenist said she didn't think I didn't needed a license to own an x-ray machine, I just couldn't afford one. "Could I use yours then?" I said, "I have some unopened Sweet Caporal boxes at home." "Oh, God, not another baseball card collector," she sad.

[drc]

If you buy used equipment like this off of eBay, make sure you're buying from some who knows that it works. Meaning, someone who know how to work it. Otherwise you might end up with a curious looking doorstop.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

Anybody know if this is the same machine that PSA uses?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/260920483879...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

If I had more sacks of money laying around, I'd be tempted to put in a bid. I'm not sure what one of those costs new, but I'm guessing it's considerably more than that. Just thought it was interesting as I've never seen one for sale elsewhere (not that I've been looking).

Maybe PSA is blowing out theirs so they can pick up the new 2013 model off the show room floor? I hear that the new 2013's have GPS, Blue Ray DVD player and leather seats as upgrade options for the high flyers....

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Maybe PSA is blowing out theirs so they can pick up the new 2013 model off the show room floor? I hear that the new 2013's have GPS, Blue Ray DVD player and leather seats as upgrade options for the high flyers....

Yeah, but it needs a bolt of lightning for the 1.21 jigawatts to power the beastie!!

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Maybe PSA is blowing out theirs so they can pick up the new 2013 model off the show room floor? I hear that the new 2013's have GPS, Blue Ray DVD player and leather seats as upgrade options for the high flyers....

LIKE !!
--

The joke around PSA when I worked for them was that it would look good to say that they had the machine, whether or not they knew how to use it.

[4815162342]

The most difficult task when configuring the Video Spectral Comparator is calibrating the disgronificator.

...

Is this the machine that goes "BING?!"

[steve B]

Here's the new model.

http://www.forensictechnology.com/nirvis/

That's a pretty advanced machine, and some of what it can do is inpressive.

But from the ridicule I'm guessing there's little understanding of that.

Steve B

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by travrosty

John Reznikoff, consultant for PSA and JSA says a video spectral comparator is not available to the general public, so it cant be one because he wouldn't say it if it wasn't true.

But for autograph authentication, get a black light and save the cost.


from his bio:

The devices he (Reznikoff) uses include: the Video Spectral Comparator , a $30,000 machine which is not available to the general public.

So it is something else.

Not sure I understand the logic here. Just because something isn't available to Joe Public doesn't negate its existence. I would take that to mean that I can't just pop by Reznikoff's place and borrow his. It's not restricted tech. It's just prohibitively expensive for 99.9% of the public to own.

That is the first time I've seen a MSRP for one of these though, so thank you for quoting that from his bio. 80% off for this one seems like a good price, assuming it works, but who the heck would you call to repair it if/when it breaks down?

All moot points for me though, as I'm still lacking those sacks full of money. Same reason I don't have a bulldozer, submarine, summer home or tropical island.

[drc]

This is the machine they use for celebrity hair authentication. Just make sure the instructions manual is included if you buy it off of ebay. (From the British sci fi sit com Red Dwarf)



Later in the episode one of the characters leaves his chicken curry lunch on the machine and accidentally creates a monster: half man, half vindaloo.

One of my all time favorite sit coms.

[travrosty]

Reznikoff said it isnt available to the general public. this one IS available to the general public, thus logic says it can't be a spectral comparator.


But of course it is one so we know what hot air is.

It might do a few impressive things but not for autograph authentication.

Both Grad and Renikoff mention the show CSI when talking about this machine. They are trying to play off of current pop culture to try to impress people.

psa, jsa and reznikoff own one.

psa and jsa like to say they use it to check for erasures on a baseball.

Jsa certed a signed babe ruth baseball that was still in the holder. they didnt take it out of the psa sealed holder. Just took a picture of it still in the holder and put that picture on their cert.

so how could jsa look for erasures if they didnt hold the baseball in their hands or put it in the machine, yet just went off the psa certification?

Is that how they do autograph authentication these days?

why have the machine if they won't use it?

Because they didnt want to tell the customer they would have to break the psa seal to take the ball out of the cube to examine it. So they didn't examine it up close.

They didn't have any incentive to do so, since it was 'safe' in their eyes to simply cert the ball because it had psa certification. but is that autograph authentication or just a way of doing business?

The submitter didn't care, he just wanted the cert., He is chasing certs and it doesn't matter to him if the signature is 'real' or not, or if the ball has erasures on it. He got his jsa cert, along with the psa one, and if he didn't get a 2nd, independent verification of the signature and ball, he doesn't care.

he wasn't looking for a 2nd, independent verification of the signature and ball, he just wanted the double cert, otherwise he might say "Aren't you even going to take it out of the ball holder and look at it?"

But breaking the seal means he would have to take it back to psa and get it re-sealed for a fee. So please JSA, just take a picture of it and give me that cert! Psa already gave me one. You are safe. Jsa did an inspection of the ball through the cube. They already admit they will inspect your autograph through a frame as well. Welcome to the brave new world of autograph authentication.

So back to the spectral comparator, did it do any good in this instance?

[drc]

It just means once you buy one you're public no more.

My assumption is that the machine wasn't designed to be sold to the public. Doesn't mean you can't ever get one. I'm sure you don't need a license.

Goudey proofs weren't intended for the public.

I remember when my batty grandmother told her neighbors that her son-in-law (my dad) had two ICBMS in his basement. She meant IBMs.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Reznikoff said it isnt available to the general public. this one IS available to the general public, thus logic says it can't be a spectral comparator.

Only if this one is Reznikoff's, which it isn't. You're using flawed logic to create an opening for another PSA rant.

Sorry I invoked their name and got your bees all buzzing in what I thought was an interesting (and as it turns out humorous) post regarding a bit of tech related to the hobby. Yeesh.

I still think it's a cool device, and would love to be able to cycle through all manner of wavelengths looking for signs of erasures and other things my naked eyes can't discern.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Reznikoff said it isnt available to the general public. this one IS available to the general public, thus logic says it can't be a spectral comparator.


But of course it is one so we know what hot air is.

It might do a few impressive things but not for autograph authentication.

Both Grad and Renikoff mention the show CSI when talking about this machine. They are trying to play off of current pop culture to try to impress people.

psa, jsa and reznikoff own one.

psa and jsa like to say they use it to check for erasures on a baseball.

Jsa certed a signed babe ruth baseball that was still in the holder. they didnt take it out of the psa sealed holder. Just took a picture of it still in the holder and put that picture on their cert.

so how could jsa look for erasures if they didnt hold the baseball in their hands or put it in the machine, yet just went off the psa certification?

Is that how they do autograph authentication these days?

why have the machine if they won't use it?

Because they didnt want to tell the customer they would have to break the psa seal to take the ball out of the cube to examine it. So they didn't examine it up close.

They didn't have any incentive to do so, since it was 'safe' in their eyes to simply cert the ball because it had psa certification. but is that autograph authentication or just a way of doing business?

The submitter didn't care, he just wanted the cert., He is chasing certs and it doesn't matter to him if the signature is 'real' or not, or if the ball has erasures on it. He got his jsa cert, along with the psa one, and if he didn't get a 2nd, independent verification of the signature and ball, he doesn't care.

he wasn't looking for a 2nd, independent verification of the signature and ball, he just wanted the double cert, otherwise he might say "Aren't you even going to take it out of the ball holder and look at it?"

But breaking the seal means he would have to take it back to psa and get it re-sealed for a fee. So please JSA, just take a picture of it and give me that cert! Psa already gave me one. You are safe. Jsa did an inspection of the ball through the cube. They already admit they will inspect your autograph through a frame as well. Welcome to the brave new world of autograph authentication.

So back to the spectral comparator, did it do any good in this instance?

What's the line? "Any weapon unused is a useless weapon"? The same goes for tools.

Certainly if the tool wasn't used (And I have little doubt that it wasn't used -I'm not sure if it will work through plastic, probably not) Then it did no good.

But some of your comments show a total ignorance of what the machines capabilities can tell you about an autograph.

The short of it. The machine can do some level of spectrographic analysis of the inks used on a document. Meaning it can probably tell old ink from new ink. They're not specific in the stuff I read as to how detailed it can be, but it can do that.

So properly used it can likely tell if say a Ruth ball was signed with 30's ink or 2000's ink. If you had a good library of ink formulations and the machine generates enough detail you could probably tell the brand. (And maybe more)

Steve B

[drc]

Shows it near the end of this video.

[chaddurbin]

i thought it was pretty cool where the machine can pick up the ink underneath...starts in at 3min.

[David Atkatz]

"...or something that suspicious us."

Just makes me trust him all the more.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by steve B

Meaning it can probably tell old ink from new ink. They're not specific in the stuff I read as to how detailed it can be, but it can do that.

So properly used it can likely tell if say a Ruth ball was signed with 30's ink or 2000's ink. If you had a good library of ink formulations and the machine generates enough detail you could probably tell the brand. (And maybe more)

Steve B

I don't think the machine can do that.
If it could the forgery problem in the hobby would be cut in half in a month.
There are a couple of labs in the country that can date ink. However, that requires removal of a tiny portion of ink from the questioned item and costs thousands of dollars.

[steve B]

Portable spectrographs are out there that give a good read on the chemical makeup of whatever they're used on. Some are optimized for a particular job, llike analysing steel or testing for lead.

The new version of the machine made by Projectina has some capability to determine ink.
" New: EasyScan mode for automated investigation and
differentiation of printing inks with various illumination and filter
combinations."

Probably not as detailed as needed. And the full brochure shows an optional spectrometer
"Optional Accessories
Colour Spectroscopy Module SP-2000
Miniature fibre optics spectrometer SP-2000 with USB
connection, fibre diameter 100 microns, resolution 6.4 nm,
grating bandwidth 360-1100 nm, barrier filter can be used to
measure luminescence spectra"

That's about where it's getting unclear as to exactly what it can do. Certainly limited spectroscopy. Full brochure can be found with a link lower right on this page.http://www.forensictechnology.com/nirvis/
The brochure shows a lot more of the capabilities, although mostly geared towards stuff like passports and money.

I was looking at some of the machines and there was one that was portable and did detailed spectroscopy including sepearating the report on the target from the report on the substrate. Which is important for the circuit board guys. It could also measure the thickness of a surface coating.

At that point it's just the hard science of matching the makeup of one ink to a database or to known qualities that weren't used before a certain date.


The show that was on briefly with Leigh and Leslie Keno (the twins from antiques roadshow) Showed them using a portable unit to tell if the bronze in a bowl was ancient or modern.

So the technology is out there.
I'm not sure there's a good publicly available library of ink compositions. I'm pretty sure there are a few being maintained.


It's amazing how the tech has changed. When I was in tech school a spectrograph or chromatograph needed a sample, and was incredibly expensive, probably somewhere over $500,000. Now they're probably under 50,000 and do far more without destroying a sample. I'd get prices, but all the sites I've found require contacting the sales dept and I can't bring myself to bother them out of curiosity. I wouldn't mind having one, but can't afford it. And if I could I'd buy a 3-D printer first.

Steve B