SOT Holy Crap the Phillies Got Cliff Lee- Best Starting 4 Pitchers Ever??

[JamesGallo]

The Phillies got Cliff Lee which is just totally mind blowing to me. Plus he signed for less money and less years which is also insane in this market.

Has there ever been a starting rotation better then the phillies have now??

Halladay
Oswalt
Lee
Hamels
Blanton (ok a weak spot but he eats a lot of innings)

So what do you think?

James G

[familytoad]

James
I posted in the watercooler, but I'll chime in here as well !

WOW Phillies have been my team for 40 years and I'm as excited as ever.
4 superstar pitchers in a row, and at the peak of their careers!

I wish it was April already...

[Peter_Spaeth]

A good day for Red Sox fans.

[barrysloate]

Yes, the Phillies staff is among the best ever, and I guess even though Lee took less money he felt that $100 million was enough. The extra $50 million the Yankees offered was just going to give him a fatter bank account. I respect that he chose the team that he wanted to play for.

[53Browns]

Only Steinbrenner was able to "buy" a world series team. IMO.

[Chris D.]

I wonder if Werth is kicking himself.

Yanks and Phils are my one and two teams. I think it's great that Lee picked the desire to win over a larger paycheck, but I think he may regret picking the Phils. Yes, their rotation is scary as long as they stay healthy and click, but their offense doesn't impress me anymore. Rollins and Utley are starting to get hampered by injuries, several key players will be free agents in a year or two and I don't think there is depth in there farm system. IMO, their best shot to go back to the Series is next season, because after that, it will be a long time before they go again as I expect them to be an irrelevant team in a couple years, unfortunately.

I love the Phils almost as much as the Yanks. I'm a season ticket holder. I think in a few years Lee is going to look around and say "Where did everybody go?" It's do or die next season.

[calvindog]

Red Sox -- Phillies will be a great WS next year. Oswalt as a #3 playoff starter? Scary.

[oldjudge]

The Phillies have morphed into the Giants--their hitting is now questionable but they have a great pitching staff.

[David Atkatz]

Any day the Yankees don't get what they want is a very good day!

[tedzan]

I'm am Phillies fan....however, I was really ticked off when they let Lee go in the first place. And, I feel that this mistake
prevented the Phillies from being in the World Series 3 consecutive years.

Now, that Lee is back in a Phillies uniform, more power to them.


TED Z

[jboosted92]

Originally Posted by Chris D.

I wonder if Werth is kicking himself.

Yanks and Phils are my one and two teams. I think it's great that Lee picked the desire to win over a larger paycheck, but I think he may regret picking the Phils. Yes, their rotation is scary as long as they stay healthy and click, but their offense doesn't impress me anymore. Rollins and Utley are starting to get hampered by injuries, several key players will be free agents in a year or two and I don't think there is depth in there farm system. IMO, their best shot to go back to the Series is next season, because after that, it will be a long time before they go again as I expect them to be an irrelevant team in a couple years, unfortunately.

I love the Phils almost as much as the Yanks. I'm a season ticket holder. I think in a few years Lee is going to look around and say "Where did everybody go?" It's do or die next season.

Jeez.... Pats and Colts are mine....Lakers and Celtics as well, did i mention Pens , Caps, and Red Wings as well

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by jboosted92

Jeez.... Pats and Colts are mine....Lakers and Celtics as well, did i mention Pens , Caps, and Red Wings as well

lol

[Michael Peich]

As a Phillies season ticket holder, I'm glad they're spending my $5/ticket increase on bringing back Cliff Lee. (Read Jayson Stark's piece on Lee's return.) Oswalt as a #3? How about a #4? And, yes, Jayson "Effing" Werth must be questioning his greed. He will become the next Aaron Rowand to leave the Phils for more $$$s, have disappointing seasons, and regret his decision.

Red Sox and Phillies in a seven game series. I love it!

Cheers, Mike

[Rob D.]

Maybe the Phillies will go with a four-man rotation.

[jb217676]

It's great he didn't sign with the Yankees. This could set my Blue Jays up for second place in the AL East. The time is now Jays, let's make a move!

[kcohen]

Originally Posted by Michael Peich

As a Phillies season ticket holder, I'm glad they're spending my $5/ticket increase on bringing back Cliff Lee. (Read Jayson Stark's piece on Lee's return.) Oswalt as a #3? How about a #4? And, yes, Jayson "Effing" Werth must be questioning his greed. He will become the next Aaron Rowand to leave the Phils for more $$$s, have disappointing seasons, and regret his decision.

Red Sox and Phillies in a seven game series. I love it!

Cheers, Mike

Mike,

As a Nats fan, I say bite your tongue. I will say my friend, you are the first Philly fan I ever met who's actually a decent human being. For all I know though, it could be that you turn into Mr. Hyde at the ball park.

[kcohen]

Could it be that the Yankee fans who abused Mrs. Lee will become the "Steve Bartmans" of Yankee fandom?

[Michael Peich]

No Mr. Hyde for me, Ken. I'm the consummate baseball geek who even keeps track of the pitches in his score-book! Yes, the Yankee's fans who hassled Mrs. Lee are the new Steve Bartmans. Good analogy.

Actually, we Phillies fans should thank J. Werth for leaving--he freed up salary for Cliff Lee.

Cheers, Mike

[kcohen]

Yes Mike. I thought of that after I hit send. Phils fans should thank Werth for freeing up that salary. As to how this rotation compares historically, at least on paper - must be top three or four. Maybe at the top if Hamels reverts to form. Comparable rotations that come to mind would be Feller-Lemon-Garcia-Wynn, Ford-Lopat-Reynolds-Raschi, and Spahn-Sain-rainout-rainout.

That said, there are no guarantees that they'll be able to outpitch the Giants' young guns in a seven game series.

Hope my bashing won't stop you from inviting me up for a game someday.

Ken

[Griffins]

Palmer-McNally-Cuellar- Dobson wasn't too shabby either, at least for Dobson's one big season.

[M's_Fan]

A question to you Phillies fans from an uninterested 3rd party-

The problem in last season's postseason wasn't pitching, it was hitting. Now you've lost Werth and added one of the greatest pitchers of our era, but do you really think you can go head-to-head with the Red Sox lineup? I would be excited if I were you, but you should temper your enthusiasm, as your batting lineup has some questions to answer.

That said, I'm glad to get Lee out of the American League. He could have created a dynasty by signing either with Texas or the Yankees. I think Texas will be okay but the Yankees are getting older every year and Cashman can't seem to bring in the free agents like he used to. They have CC and Hughes and it goes nowhere from there, I bet Pettite retires now too.

[tbob]

We all know that in best of 5 and best of 7 playoff series that the best team doesn't always win. I wouldn't go penciling in the Phils and Red Sox just yet. Injuries, chemistry issues, momentum, just plain luck, etc. can all play a part.
It's a long season and although both are favored to win their respective leagues, stranger things have happened, and happened many times as we all know. My favorite examples are these: the hitless wonder White Sox, the 1914 Boston Braves, and does anyone really think the Minnesota Twins in 1987 were the best team in baseball with a pitching staff of a young Frank Viola, Bert Blyleven who was past his prime, a mediocre at best Les Straker and an over the hill Joe Niekro? Don't go rushing out to Vegas just yet

[TexasLeaguer]

1948 Indians: Feller, Paige, Lemon, Bearden

1906-07 A's: Coombs, Waddell, Bender, Plank

1995 Braves: Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Avery

[tbob]

As a Twins fan I am excited to see Lee in the National League. Personally I don't think the Rangers will make the playoffs this year even from the weak AL West. The A's are going to be better, the Angels will bounce back although they don't appear to have done a thing yet to improve their team and the wild card is either going to come from the East or Central. The Yankees are going to have a fight on their hands against the Central runner-up for the wild card spot. The White Sox look stronger as do the Tigers and the Twins are the Twins, they'll be in the mix. If the Blue Jays somehow pick up a little more bullpen help and were able to sign Greinke, the Yanks might be in serious trouble.

[ChiefBenderForever]

A lot of pressure on the Phillies can they live up to the hype ? I like the Red Sox but they won't even make the playoffs next year.

[Anthony S.]

I think Halladay's last nine seasons have been a fluke. He's not that good.

[vintagecpa]

As a Braves fan, I've certainly heard better news before. It will be interesting to see how many wins this team will get if everyone stays healthy. I'm not the biggest oswalt fan.

[sox1903wschamp]

Originally Posted by JohnnyHarmonica

I like the Red Sox but they won't even make the playoffs next year.

Interesting statment that I disagree with. Playoffs, yes. World Series? Not sure. Too many variables that Bob stated above in a short 5 and 7 game series. Especially the ALDS with a best of 5. 162 games to get to a best of 5, very scary. Time will decide.

[vintagesportscollector]

There has a been a lot of talking about Lee walking away from big bucks, but unless I am missing something, I don’t see how that is quite the case. IMO this was a no brainer for Lee, if he wanted to pitch in Philly. The media is spinning the less money angle, because it makes for a dramatic story, but talk about him forgoing big bucks is just not the reality. He can easily earn the amount of the Yanks contract over the 7 year period. Yankees were guaranteeing 154M for 7 years. Lee’s Philly deal is 120M for 5 years (which is more annually per year), and includes an easily reachable vesting option for a sixth year for $27M. That’s 6 years for $147M.

Yes, technically he is guaranteed more, but if he vests for the 6th year in Philly, he was only guaranteed $7M more for the 7th year – which is nothing. He can limp up to the mound in the 7th year for $7M. He can easily sign an extension or a new contract after the 5th year with the Phills and achieve as much, if not more, than the Yanks deal. If he stays healthy – this was a no brainer.

[cfc1909]

Anthony has it
Palmer-McNally-Cuellar- Dobson-4, 20 game winners. The Phillies have a chance at this-we will see.

[kcohen]

Ah Jim. Your opinion doesn't count. You're biased.

[tedzan]

The salary deal with the Phillies ($120M/5 years) is better than the Yankees deal. Anyhow, my guess is that the following 2 factors influenced
Lee to sign with the Phillies......

His wife really got misstreated at one of the Play-Off games at Yankee Stadium this Fall. Supposedly, some drunk characters sitting next to her
were crude & rude. And, she wasn't that fond of New York to begin with. Wives certainly make the difference when it comes to major decisions
such as this one.

More importantly, Cliff Lee's 9-year old son, Jaxon, was stricken with myeloid leukemia when he was 4 months-old. While Cliff Lee was pitching
for the Phillies, Lee and his family found a Philadelphia hospital that they were quite comfortable with in treating their son.

In any event, I hope for the best for his family, and I'm very happy that Cliff has returned to Philly.


TED Z

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by cfc1909

Anthony has it
Palmer-McNally-Cuellar- Dobson-4, 20 game winners. The Phillies have a chance at this-we will see.

Nope...when is the last time we've even had 4 20 game winners in an entire league? It'll never happen again with 5 man rotations, pitch counts and the babying of major league pitchers.

[barrysloate]

Don't we all agree that $100 million is a lot of money? Once you reach that level, you take the job that you feel will make you happiest, even if the other one pays more.

[judsonhamlin]

Barry - I agree - once you hit those kind of numbers, how much more does one need? Happiness should count at that oint.

Also, I'll see your Orioles and raise you the 1954 Indians: Feller, Lemon, Wynn and Garcia, with Hal Newhouser thrown in for kicks - that's four HOFer's on one staff.

[bbsports]

This deal having Lee going to the Phillies reminds me somewhat to the LeBron James deal to Miami. I'm sure the GM & owner of the Phillies said to Lee "How would you like to pitch with the best pitcher in baseball" meaning Roy Halliday? He went to the Phillies so he can make the Phillies one of the best pitching staffs in the game today. He never really was interested in pitching for the Yankees & Texas was most likely his second choice. Currently, is the best pitching staff with Lee, Halliday, Oswalt, & Hammels? How about the World Champion Giants pitching staff. Didn't they beat these pitchers in October? Right now the Phillies should easily win the N.L. East, but in a playoff series anything can happen.

[ls7plus]

Well, at least the Yankees didn't get shut out--they managed to sign an aging shortstop for twice what he would have been worth anywhere else!
Seriously, I agree with David--anytime the Yankees can't simply buy what they need is a tremendous day for baseball!

[ksfarmboy]

The 1920 White Sox had 4 20 game winners like the 71 Orioles.

[mayx2]

Originally Posted by cfc1909
Anthony has it
Palmer-McNally-Cuellar- Dobson-4, 20 game winners. The Phillies have a chance at this-we will see.

Yes they had 4 20 game winners but they lost the World Series to the Buccos! Lou

[brickyardkennedy]

According to Phillies spanish language announcer, Ricky Ricardo, Lee's wife's problems with the nitwit fans were a factor in Lee's decision, as Ted alluded to. However, according to Ricardo, the problem started with the world series of 2009, when the Phillies wives felt that they had been disrespected by the Yankees seating them out in the upper deck, in left field, in the Stadium. They felt, and properly so, I think, that they should have been seated behind the Phillies dugout. The spitting just made an already existing unhappiness, worse.

There were other factors in Lee's decision, of course, that have already been mentioned. The hospital and friendships between the players and their wives.

I must confess that I don't follow baseball today as much as I did in the 1960s and 1970s, and I know it's a different era with 5-man rotations and the big emphasis on offense - but I'd sure like to know what I'm missing with regards to Lee et al. When I look at the numbers, I see these 5 guys started 154 combined games last year, had a combined record of 67-49, and their teams won a combined 89-65 in their starts. That's really good, but is it historically great? Why would these guys all win 20 games next year? Synergy? Momentum? Are the Phillies offensively and/or defensively better than the support these guys had a year ago?

I also don't get the Lee hysteria. He's been in the majors for 9 years, and only twice has won more than 14 games. In the last 5 years, he had one terrific Cy Young season; in the 4 years wrapped around that one, he was 45-41, and his teams were a combined 54-57 in his 111 starts. He's given up more than a hit an inning for his career, and minus his Cy Young season his career ERA is over 4.00.

I know he's renowned for his post-season pitching, but that's just 10 total starts over two seasons, and the most recent 2 starts were bombs. He was a spectacular 4-0, 1.49 in 2009, then a less spectacular 3-2, 2.78 in 2010.

If we're evaluating this new rotation on the strength of the 4th and 5th starters, I guess it ranks (potentially) pretty high; if evaluated on combined or average performance, I think there are dozens throughout history that probably rank ahead of it (maybe even including Spahn, Sain, Rain, Rain and Rain).

[David R]

I know I am biased because I live in the San Francisco Bay Area but I still like the Giants rotation better. I would take Lincecum and Cain over any of the Phillies starters and I think Bumgarner is not far behind.

[Fred]

With Lee the Phillies have the best current staff around in either league... just incredible to put him in with Doc and Oswalt (not that Hamels sucks).

What about Hughes, Melton, Johnson and Hoerst? Now that was an awesome staff!

[cfc1909]

Originally Posted by kcohen

Ah Jim. Your opinion doesn't count. You're biased.

correct Ken...

[fkw]

Giants bullpen keeps them in same league as the Phillies staff, and in 3 years with those aging Phillies starters....who knows

Lets see if the Phillies even win 100 games in 2011?
Will be interesting

2001 Mariners were 116-46 .........They led the majors in both runs scored and fewest runs allowed.

[sox1903wschamp]

Originally Posted by fkw

2001 Mariners were 116-46 .........They led the majors in both runs scored and fewest runs allowed.

And then went 4-6 in the post season. Again, to Bob's point, once in the playoffs, anything can happen (87 Twins).

[cdn_collector]

Originally Posted by David R

I know I am biased because I live in the San Francisco Bay Area but I still like the Giants rotation better. I would take Lincecum and Cain over any of the Phillies starters and I think Bumgarner is not far behind.

I am so blown away by this I don't even which angle to settle on. I can only assume that you're taking this position because you guys won the World Series this year. I completely understand your position on Lincecum, the kid is a stud [although I'll admit I was super excited to see him pitch against the Cubs this summer and am still disappointed at how badly he got pasted]. To say that you'd take Cain over Halladay, though, blows me away. I'm trying to tell myself that it's because I'm a life long Jays fan [basically synonymous with Halladay fan], but taking Cain over Halladay would be like me insisting on bringing Pat Borders out of retirement rather than having to settle for Buster Posey.


Regards,

Richard.

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by 53Browns

Only Steinbrenner was able to "buy" a world series team. IMO.

Wayne Huizenga bought one back in 1997. Then promptly dismantled the team and sold it.

[David R]

Originally Posted by cdn_collector

I am so blown away by this I don't even which angle to settle on. I can only assume that you're taking this position because you guys won the World Series this year. I completely understand your position on Lincecum, the kid is a stud [although I'll admit I was super excited to see him pitch against the Cubs this summer and am still disappointed at how badly he got pasted]. To say that you'd take Cain over Halladay, though, blows me away. I'm trying to tell myself that it's because I'm a life long Jays fan [basically synonymous with Halladay fan], but taking Cain over Halladay would be like me insisting on bringing Pat Borders out of retirement rather than having to settle for Buster Posey.


Regards,

Richard.

Richard,
Halladay is great, no doubt. But I think Cain is one of the most underrated starters in baseball. The Giants have not given him much run support and the bullpen has let him down consistently his whole career. He is six or seven years younger than Halladay, has a similar career ERA, and gives up fewer hits and strikes out more batters per nine innings than Halladay. For next season I would take him as a starter on my staff over Halladay. Time will tell whether that would be a good decision.
Best,
David R

[Rickyy]

Great get for the Phillies for sure... on paper they look very formidable and all those guys are battle tested too and definitely makes them a favorite...but nothing is guaranteed...look at Maddox, Smoltz, Glavine and Avery...that great staff was together for a good run but they only won one title... one good point too.. comparing SF and Phila staff....Phillies bullpen is still not as strong as the Giants...although I really like Ryan Madson.