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Old 12-11-2009, 04:10 AM
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CarltonHendricks CarltonHendricks is offline
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Default 1888 Bailey Championship Prize - Sterling Silver Plaque 18”x 15”


I’ve been going to the Alameda Point Antiques fair for years, it’s a once a month outdoor affair directly across the bay from San Francisco….you can clearly see the SF city skyline as you walk the show….comes first Sunday of every month. Actually I wrote a story on the show a long time ago that you can read here. Anyway in all the years I’ve been going to it, up till the item we’re about to look at, I’d never found anything really ground shaking in sports…at least in my area of antique display pieces. As much footwork as I’ve put in, that is amazing. So last month I dutifully trudged thru it once more….but this time I hit the mother load!

Towards the back of the show I came to a booth that put my radar on full alert…leaning against a black pickup was a 18” wide by 15” tall silver plaque that really caught me by surprise…You know how it is when you’ve been looking hard a long time for stuff, and when you see something great and you’re off guard and you have to sort of stop and try to think clearly about what you’re seeing….kind of like you’re dreaming it…anyway…I see this plaque and the relief work is so fine I had to study it hard….the title “Bailey Championship Prize” was in high relief and very c1890 art nouveau… and it had about twenty…actually twenty three individual portraits done in low relief, of athletes in various athletic endeavour…it was killer…I thought it was silver plate. There wasn’t a price tag but from the looks of the booth I basically figured it would be under priced…partly because it looked like it would be worth what ever you had to pay…

So the seller is talking away to customers big time. Finally I got tired of waiting and sort of interrupted…pointing to it I asked, how much for the plaque….$__________ he said….top retail…enough to choke a herd of reindeer. I was kind of stunned. I thought for a second…Now usually if I think a guy’s way out of line I never say a thing…just thanks and walk away…it’s their piece, people have a right to ask what ever they want…However….in this case I was really seriously interested in it…I figured if I was going to grind him I’d give it everything I had….so without flinching….about two seconds after he gave me the price I shot back loud and clear….I repeated the price with mock shock…The guy looks at me and didn’t even flinch….with complete confidence he goes to me…“Is there some reason I shouldn’t get $_________?”…my plan didn’t work…as a matter of fact it backfired…I actually semi alienated him….he says to me….I know you….you’re the guy that never buys anything…you just take a bunch of photos…Boy did he have me pegged…he was right…I never buy anything…..unless it’s what I want…and let’s face it….how many dealers are gonna have what I want?…..

So….we discuss the piece….he gives me what he knows pretty straight up…I told him I think it might be English….I came upon it so fast I hadn’t had time to sort it out…that is…what it was, how much I would pay, who made it, etc….He said he thought it might be English too…I sort of thought it was; particularly since there wasn’t a baseball player in it…but on the other hand no cricket…so I couldn’t quite get a handle what I was looking at…Anyway….the guy was completely adamant on the $__________….said he would not come down at all and if he didn‘t sell it it would just go back home with him…And I could tell it wasn’t because of what I said…he just wasn’t interested in taking less…said it would go back on his wall…(right…it didn’t even have away to hang it)…anyway….He actually seemed pretty straight forward about everything….I asked him where he’d gotten it and he said in San Francisco (I think he said)..and that he’d gotten it as payment for doing an art appraisal…and that his fee for doing the appraisal was $1,000.00.…And he went on…that Heritage wanted it but he didn’t like auction house fees….but that they wanted it…and something about the $figure$ they thought they could get for it yada yada…which of course I could have construed as a threat but I just ignored it….So finally I said something to the effect I might make an offer….the guy goes to me again…that he wouldn’t take less than what he quoted me…

Now I found that almost confusing…I mean…what dealer doesn’t at least listen to an offer…it really didn’t add up….just didn’t really make sense to me….but he was serious..so…I walked…of course I mended the fence before leaving and admitted I was just trying to shake him out with the initial pony show …that I just had to see where he was. He seemed ok with it, and we parted amicably….but I did go back several times over the course of the morning to look it over and over…each time there was no indication he would come off the $____________ the guy was tough as nails…..So anyway I left. The following Sunday was the Sacramento Antiques Fair and I knew the dealer sets up there….I went hoping to see the plaque again but he wasn’t there…

As the month wore on I couldn’t find much at all on the internet about a Bailey Championship Prize plaque, so I eMailed my friend Tom Cardiopoli in Cape Cod…

EMAIL TO TOM CARDIOPOLI:
c1890 Multi Sport Relief Plaque, 18" wide x 15" tall
Bailey Championship Prize in HIGH RELIEF....athlete portraits in low relief

http://sportsantiques.com/scullerinkwell.htm
Tom, FYI, Check out the attached photos plus the inkwell in this link above....about the plaque, silver plate, ...found last Sunday at a large outdoor show (Alameda Point)...wanted $__________ ...said got for doing an art appraisal??...said $__________ was it...I was thinking maybe $__________ as it's probably English..(no baseball)...but on the other hand no cricket either...but the guy wasn't open to offers so walked...after kept coming back and looking at it 5 times!...photographs terrible...plus needs polishing bad...because of the high wheel bike it could be as early as 1880.....your opinion? -Carlton
PS, wow that giant shoe photo!


TOM CARDIOPOLI’S EMAIL REPLY:
Carleton - the Plaque is FANTASTIC - it is solid silver I believe - and DEFINITELY American. Here is a short notice about the "Bailey Championship Prize" from the front page of "Sporting Life":

From the Sept 9th, 1888 “Sporting Life”

(headline)The A. A. U. Championship.
A solid silver prize in the shape of n plaque handsomely
mounted and framed, has been presented by
Bailey, Bunks & Diddle, through the Athletic Club of
the Schuylkill Navy, to the Amateur Athletic Union
of the U. S. The Prize represents players engaged in
the twenty-three varieties of sports under the jurisdiction
of the Union and is to be awarded each year to
the club making the best average in all of them. It is
known us "The Bailey Championship Prize," and will be competed for September 19th at Detroit for the first time.

I am sure you know that Bailey, Banks & Biddle was a major Silver and Silver Plate manufacture - made stuff that was almost as good as Tiffany.

The Plaque must not have been given for very many years - the above reference is the only one I can find and it is likely that once high wheel bikes went out of style, this particular trophy was retired. It's American, its sterling silver, its beautiful - my guess is if the inkwell was worth $__________ , the plaque has to be worth $__________ !!

Good luck!!
Tom


LINK TO SPORTING LIFE REFERENCE
http://www.la84foundation.org/Sports.../SL1124001.pdf

END OF EMAIL CORRESPONDENCE

So….after learning all that it was a different ball game…first of all it was American which was all important to me, and if that wasn’t cool enough it was sterling silver not silver plate. but even so, the price was still tough for me to chew. Nevertheless, I was beginning to take the plaque a lot more serious. I emailed him to let him know I was still interested, but never heard back.

So…this last Sunday Dec. 6th , a full month after I initially found it, I went back to the Alameda Point show with $_______ in green folding cash, the full amount he was asking. Though I didn‘t want or expect to have to spend it all. ……I got there late around 1:00PM…and it was a miserable freezing cold day….the dealers were already starting to pack up at 1:00PM…I headed back to the dealer with the plaque towards the back of the show. I didn’t see the plaque out, but he looked like he had just starting packing up….Hi how’s it going I said….Do you still have the plaque I asked….yes he said…still had it. Did you get my email I asked…no, computer blew up he said. So have you softened up on the price I asked….No, I’ll just take it home if I don’t get it he said and launched into the same longstanding platitudes about keeping it. After a little chit chat I started to leave…as I did I said to him…how about giving me some wiggle room on this thing…..the guy says to me….Alright….what’s wiggle room?, he says…Then he kind of had me on the spot….as difficult to deal with as he’d been, I couldn’t lowball him into oblivion…So I knew I had to cough up a number that was at least respectable….like I say he really put me on the spot….$________ I said, which was $1,000.00 less than he what he was asking….three seconds later he shot back with a $500.00 discount….now he had my attention, it was a crack in the wall. It was significant but I still just couldn’t get behind the new discounted price. I himmed a minute and said let me think it over, I’ll take a walk, he said OK.

In the mean time I found a commercial meat slicker I’d always wanted for $130.00. After I wrapped up that deal for a practical item, I walked back by the plaque dealer. I thanked him for the discount and asked him if he still had my card in case he decides to take my offer. He said yes. Then I told him….you know I have green folding cash on me and we could do the deal right now! Today’s the day I told him, we can make it happen!..He thanked me and said he’s already come off a lot. I had kind of been convincing myself with all my talk about today’s the day etc….so I said…alright how about
$___________and I offered $200.00 over my initial offer….he shot back almost immediately with $__________ …$100.00 off his last offer, which put us at $200.00 apart….I tried the I’m here now card again…and he wouldn’t budge. So almost from fatigue I said OK $__________ which then made us $100 apart…and he immediately shot back with $__________ $50.00 over my last offer….so we were $50.00 apart…and I started to cave. I said bring it out let me take a look at it again…and I paid the $__________

Obviously it’s tarnished and needs polishing but I was concerned about doing it right…I got a hold of a silver repair guy in Southern Calif I know and will take it to him for him to polish, he says it will look fantastic when it‘s done….then….I think I’ve decided on a cherry wood/deep dark red stained wood plaque to mount it on…and I think I’ll trace the outline to match the silver plaque with a nice routered edge….I’ll find a wood working shop to do make it.

All the info Tom supplied about the AAU awarding it in 1888 took a new turn also…turns out the AAU was founded in 1888...which probably makes this their first trophy. At the very least it’s very early and a significant piece of American history since the AAU was the most prominent athletic governing body in the United States in the late 19th century….I’m now in Contact with John Apostal Lucas, below a link to his writings:
http://www.eifrigenterprises.com/assets/PDF/lucas.pdf
Lucas has written about the history of the AAU, and I hope to learn more about my plaque from him. As well, Lucas is the official historian of the AOC (American Olympic Committee)….so it’s getting interesting! I‘ll keep you up on what I learn, plus I‘ll post photos after it’s polished and mounted. -Carlton
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Old 12-11-2009, 04:53 AM
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Congratulations Carlton!!! That is a spectacular addition to the Hendricks collection my friend. We also greatly appreciate the story. I was riveted by every word. Maybe the seller will let his buddies know that the guy who takes pictures has a good eye
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Old 12-11-2009, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarltonHendricks View Post
said it would go back on his wall…(right…it didn’t even have away to hang it)…
Carlton - awesome piece! About the wall, however, I see four holes, 1 in each corner. I think he could have hung the piece!
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Last edited by canjond; 12-11-2009 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 12-11-2009, 12:47 PM
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Hi Carlton,

All I can say is Nice Prize!!!!

I am finding all kinds of info on this Bailey Prize... Here are a couple of articles below.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg bay award1.jpg (35.5 KB, 387 views)
File Type: jpg Question1.jpg (66.5 KB, 387 views)
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  #5  
Old 12-11-2009, 01:24 PM
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Hi Carlton- beautiful piece, and you never expect to find anything like that at an outdoor antique show...but, I have to ask you: for something that special that you wanted that badly, how could you risk losing it over $100, or for that matter wait a month before clinching the deal? You know how easily you could have lost it? Of course, I don't know what he was asking and maybe it was way too high, but I would never quibble over a jugular piece. Just my three cents.
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Old 12-11-2009, 02:48 PM
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Carlton:

A landmark acquisition, and congrats!

I had a question about the athlete depicted under the letters "pi". You said that neither Cricket nor Baseball were depicted, but it sure looks like a guy swingin' a bat of some type. Is it Jai Alai, or maybe something else?

Thanks for the great post!
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Old 12-11-2009, 04:12 PM
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I thought the same thing Mark, but upon closer inspection it appears to be a racket sport perhaps.
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Old 12-12-2009, 03:54 AM
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Default Amazing

Fantastic piece. Fantastic post. Thank you.

Doug
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Old 12-12-2009, 08:23 AM
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Default Plaque

Amazing looking piece Carlton, and the suspense within your tale of acquiring it was great!
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Old 12-13-2009, 03:35 AM
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Default EPIC SCORE Carlton

Amazing piece Carlton. The find of a Lifetime! The Font of the lettering looks very much like that on the Temple Cup baseball trophy from the 1800s, and also one of the fancy sterling silver lifetime passes for MLB that has the stadium scene on it. I am so amazed that the piece was just sitting around somewhere for over 100 years.
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Old 12-13-2009, 10:41 PM
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Default Gracias Amigos

Thanks one and all for your kind words.

My friend Mike, who’s grandfather owned Dieges and Clust sent the link below to the Bailey Banks and Biddle history, very informative, lots of history.
http://www.baileybanksandbiddle.com/...y/history.html
Mike told me he actually dated one of the Biddle girls back in the mid-1970's, while they were in Gemology school together.

Mark PerezFan, I knew I’d hear from you on this piece!…Hey by the way I hear you’re really tear’n it up!!!! Congrats!

Shawn, whoa!!!…what the…keep’um coming buddy, those are fantastic…Please post everything in your power….I’m VERY anxious to see EVERYTHING you have!!!!!! But can you please include the periodical and date they came out of? Would really appreciate it….Shawn’s the man!!! Thanks much.

Please welcome Paul “olsport”…I sent him a link to this thread and he‘s now a member….Paul was a regular at the old PMA show in San Mateo back in “ol” the days before everything got eBayed…likes the antique stuff!
-Carlton
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Last edited by CarltonHendricks; 12-14-2009 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 12-13-2009, 11:48 PM
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Hows the ole National story coming along Carlton?
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Old 12-14-2009, 12:04 AM
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Default Newbie thanks you Carlton

Yes, I'm a rookie on here, but not in the field of antique sports memorabilia. I have been collecting for close to 20 years. What got me started in Old Sports memorabilia was when a friend I worked with showed me some of his old baseball memorabilia at his house and I was shockingly excited about most of it! He had a single 5 x 7" sheet of paper with Ty Cobb's autograph signed over and over all over it like 25 times! The story was Ty visited an orphanage and signed like 2 sheets,to cut out single autographs for each child. Well apparently everyone got one and these were left over and never seperated after all these years! He started me on old baseball photos after I saw his amazing 1890s Mamouth plate Eclipse baseball team photo in the original victorian frame! Many years later he sold me that very piece that inspired me to start collecting! Jack DeStories is his name and I have no idea where he is or what he's up to?
Great find Carlton on the Bailey Plaque!!! A piece you will cherish the rest of your life, like I do, every time I see my Eclipse Photo!
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Old 12-14-2009, 12:15 AM
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Brock..it's not but I'm having fun with this thing for now...get to it later

Paul "olsport" ..you're welcome...you're gonna have a blast on this site.

I almost forgot about this below...check this out...culled from an 1890 NY Times...Apparently the Bailey plaque was very coveted. I'm very interested to see what else Shawn England comes up with also.


Detroit Athletic Club and the Burton Historical Collection, Detroit Public Library
John Owen Jr., right, and Michael C. Murphy, his notoriously strict coach and trainer at the Detroit Athletic Club, at a photo studio start line. Owen became the first amateur to break 10 seconds in the 100-yard dash.


The Old Detroit’s Sleek New Model
The New York Times
October 11, 1890
WASHINGTON-Now is the time for the Manhattan Athletic Club of New York to crow, and her representatives are taking advantage of their turn to whoop things up. Several hundred men wearing the pretty "cherry diamond" of the club are having a jollification here tonight over the result of the National Amateur Athletic Union's championship of the United States, contested on the grounds of the Columbia Athletic Club. The Manhattans are now the undisputed champions of the country, and while many thought before the games began that this club would defeat the New York Athletic Club in the race for the Bailey, Banks & Biddle plaque, representing the championship of clubs, no one believed the margin between them to-night would be as large as it is.

The New York Athletic Club won the plaque two years in succession, but the past year was the first time the Manhattans competed for it. Three world's amateur records were surpassed in the contests. The most notable feat was the running of John Owen, Jr., Detroit Athletic Club, in the 100-yard dash, who covered the distance in 94û5 seconds. The record heretofore both in this country and in England was 10 seconds, this time having been made by a number of runners. Owen's performance equals the professional record, and was the most wonderful exhibition of sprinting ever seen in amateur contests. L.H. Cary of the Manhattan Athletic Club was second to Owen by about 18 inches, while Fred Westing, Manhattan Athletic Club, was third by 26 inches. All three finished close together and all were within even time, 10 seconds. Owen won the championship last year, and had a ten-second record before.

The track was in the best possible condition for the contest, and went far toward establishing this new record. There is a claim made that the ground was not level, but if there is any incline it is very slight, and a member of the Record Committee of the Amateur Athletic Union said tonight that he thinks the record will be allowed.

The timing in each event was excellent. It was done by C.C. Hughes, Manhattan Athletic Club; C.A. Reed, Boston Athletic Association, and M.B. Bishop, Staten Island Athletic Club. In the heat where Owen made his 100-yard record, Mr. Hughes's watch failed to stop, but the other two agreed.

John Owen's record of 9.8 seconds in the 100-yard dash stood for 31 years until it was broken by Charles Paddock of the Los Angeles Athletic Club in 9.6. The 100-yard dash gave way to the 100- meter competition in most major athletic meets during the 1930's.
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html...rts/10.11.html
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:16 PM
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Carlton, that thing is huge! Wow, what a great piece. Thanks for sharing.
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:54 PM
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Great Stuff Cartlton. Fantastic story, which is half the fun of collecting.

I would have caved, like Barry mentioned, much earlier than you for fear of losing such a great piece with apparent provenance. While it's not sports, but beer, my dad and I ran into a fellow at a show over the summer with a c. 1900 reversed glass sign in his trunk. After putting our eyeballs back in there sockets, he quoted us the price. Cash was flying as fast as we could get it in his hands before anyone else walked by. Some stuff just never shows up.

Great piece. Please post a pic of it when it's all polished and mounted.

greg
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Old 12-14-2009, 07:44 PM
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A quick question from someone unfamiliar with caring for such pieces. Do collectors of trophies, plaques, etc. universally support polishing/cleaning them? Personally, I don't believe I would want to clean it for fear of losing some of the detail. The 120yr acquired patina isn't so bad. Of course, I reserve the right to change my mind once I see it polished
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Old 12-15-2009, 06:09 AM
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Default So I'm relaxed!

I'm slowly learning more about this plaque and warming up to it....Below is a key reference from the April 9, 1890 New York Times that reveals how much the plaque cost then....$2,000.00 in 1890....whoa 2 g's back then, can you believe that?

Speaking of cost...regarding Greg and Barry's concerns about losing the plaque by negotiating the price and taking too long. For the kind of dough we were dealing with, the seller wasn’t about to turn into the soup Nazi….thrust it into his chest and say no plaque for you, I put away...Matter fact some guy I think knew the seller walked up in the middle of our hard ball session and started talking jesting non-sense about our negotiating, and the seller told him in no uncertain terms to knock it off we were in the middle of talking serious money....I was very glad he did too as I can't stand guys like that, and he saved me from unloading on him!...

I'm reminded of a theory I have about high priced items...When you go to a show, it's best to get in as early as possible...the sooner you're on the scene the better chance of finding something...whether it's a flea market or tony antiques show....but if you stop to consider it, there is a benefit to an item being priced high, believe it or not. And that is, that it can prevent the item from selling before you get there....and...if it happens to be something you really want and you're willing to pay the high price and you get it...that high price just worked to your benefit. Simple but true....I didn't see it till about 9:00AM...like any good flea, people had been out there since 4:00AM with flashlights...I don't know how long the seller had it out....but had it been priced more reasonably it may have been gone by the time I got there...so now the only question is...what's "priced more reasonably"?...the more rare something is the harder it is to estimate what it's worth....and in this case, it's extremely rare, unique one of a kind rare...of course it helped that I live and breathe exactly this kind of thing and probably understood it better than anyone who saw it. To quote John Buonaguidi "A bargain is a state of mind".

But I admit I'm a cautious buyer....ask Keith Schneider of Gasoline Alley Antiques in Seattle...he told me that once, that I was a cautious buyer. And I guess the more money the more cautious...I think the only time I get in a hurry is when something's a steal and it's great. But generally I warmed up to this plaque slowly. As a matter fact...After I had the guy that sold me the meat slicer take the photo of me holding it, the one I'm wearing a hood on my head...I wanted to leave with it in my car…I wanted to just drive to someplace, side the road, anywhere and just examine it…away from where I bought it. So I’m driving thru the parking lot and couldn’t go any further…stop the car middle of the parking lot…show’s closing, cars buzzing past me, freezing whipping wind…but I had to stop pull it out of my trunk and just look at it…what a way to start our relationship…freezing cold wind blowing…but I just had to see it…It’s always been kind of a tradition with me…I usually drive my pickup to shows and when I leave I spread out everything I bought in the bed and just look at it all…and sit on my tailgate and relax a bit before I leave…but I had my mustang that day and it was very cloudy….I couldn’t take the wind for long…I had sent Ryan Simms photos of it over the last month, so shot a very lame photo of it on my phone and sent it to him on the spot…



As I was driving away Ryan called me and said he got a very poor image on his phone but he guessed it was the plaque..I had to share my big find with someone…and told him the whole story as I drove away from the show…We talked about collecting a while, his latest finds and so forth….As we began to wrap up the conversation Ryan asked me how I felt…I thought hard….I told him I just felt OK, not great…it was significant money and I just didn't feel like spending it!… I told him had it not been that much I’d have felt better, but I just felt OK…Ryan said he’d had the same experience with buys before…and said he knew the feeling but that as time went on what I spent would seem more reasonable. Of course I didn't know what I know now about it's history. It's only been a little more than a week and I’m already feeling pretty good.

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Old 12-15-2009, 12:38 PM
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Hi Carlton,

Sorry about the delay in response to your question. The two articles I pasted above are from the Sporting Life 1890. I just sent you an email with several links (some of which may be the same stuff as posted above) that I hope helps you in your search. I will keep looking... There has to be a photo or a drawing picturing a team with the prize somewhere! you would think

Shawn
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Old 12-15-2009, 12:52 PM
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Carlton,

I did some looking on the Google "patent" search program and found a couple of Bailey items such as spoons and rings from the 1890s, but did not find any plaques etc. I doubt that the plaque that you have was patented, but I did see some records in other sources that showed the Bailey company patented some trophies and plaques??? Someone who is more familar with patent research may be able to find them. Not sure if it would help but you never know.

Also, I found this in the Hunt auction, but there is not a picture... It would be neat to see.

February 22nd and 23rd 2002

942 1917 Chief Bender presentation award basket. Openwork silverplate basket engraved in center "Fred Stone Shoot 10-9-17 C.A. Bender". 10" diam. stamped Bailey, Banks, & Biddle on bottom: EX-MT
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Old 12-15-2009, 02:21 PM
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Found this nice advertisement from "Outing library of Sports" 1888
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Old 12-15-2009, 02:38 PM
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Default I am on a roll....

I am on a roll....
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Old 12-15-2009, 05:23 PM
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Did I read that right? This plaque was a perpetual trophy for the AAU? That means this was probably the only one right?

Congrats Carlton! And thanks for the commentary on your find...always enjoyable.
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Old 12-16-2009, 03:53 AM
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Default original value et al

Shawn, I got your email with all the links, thank you very much for them and all your posts...will be going thru the links to try to piece it all together to understand this plaque...I see there's already a discrepancy....the March 18, 1888 NY Times clipping you posted states the cost of the plaque at $500.00...and the April 5, 1890 N.Y. Times clipping I posted on page 2 says it cost $2,000.00 ...interesting! One thing I'm very interested to see is a photo or illustration of the plaque from the period...Like you say there has to be one, at least. I'll bet one of the historical societies in Philly has one.....Also both the Manhattan Athletic Club and N.Y. Athletic Club won it, different years of course, and so there must be photos of it in N.Y. City somewhere.

Dan Bretta, Yes, from what I've read so far, it was a perpetual trophy given to athletic clubs that scored the most points in some kind of large events....the club that won the plaque was considered the National Champion of the United States...but the plaque was only given about four years, I think 1888-1891...as the AAU decided to stop giving the plaque and started awarding individual athletes instead of whole clubs...That's the readers digest version for now...I still have to sort it out more clear.
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Old 12-18-2009, 06:15 PM
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And I can't help but asking myself...how in the world does something like this wind up on a folding table next to a "Cootie" game?

And then I remember something that happened when I worked in the Internal Audit Department while a student at Oklahoma State University. We were tasked to audit football ticket printing and distribution as part of our normal duties. While doing an audit, I noticed a large box of old trophies in a cardboard box that was sitting atop a large trash barrel. I asked one of the staff members about it and they told me that they were "getting rid of old stuff to make room for the newer ones in the trophy case."

I went to the box and the first thing I pulled out of the box was a large silver basketball trophy awarded to 1945 NCAA champ Oklahoma A&M for defeating NIT champ DePaul in a Red Cross Benefit game in New York. That game featured the two dominant big men of the 1940s...7-footer Bob Kurland and 6-10 George Mikan...whose play led to the creation of the goaltending foul.

I promptly walked into the AD's office and asked him if they were really going to throw these away...and as I suspected, he didn't agree with the staff's decision. Last time I saw them, they were back in the trophy cases where they belonged.

But if I hadn't happened to be there that day...
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Old 12-22-2009, 03:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perezfan View Post
Carlton:

A landmark acquisition, and congrats!

I had a question about the athlete depicted under the letters "pi". You said that neither Cricket nor Baseball were depicted, but it sure looks like a guy swingin' a bat of some type. Is it Jai Alai, or maybe something else?

Thanks for the great post!

Mark, It's a lacrosse player. I think there isn't a baseball player because the A.A.U. was not the governing body of baseball in 1888. Haven't had time to do any new research but here's a good synopsis below of the A.A.U.'s beginnings

In 1870 the New York Athletic Club (NYAC) was by far the best known athletic club in the United States. That year they started their series of athletic meets, known as the Spring Games and Fall Games of the NYAC – two per year. Early in 1876, it was decided that a national championship meet was necessary and desirable and the best known meet of the year was chosen to serve that purpose. Thus, in late 1876, the 7th Annual Fall Games of the NYAC became the first national championship meet. The NYAC sponsored the meet for three years.

In 1879, however, a national organization had been formed, composed of many member athletic clubs and known as the National Association of Amateur Athletes of America (NAAAA). They sponsored the 1879 meet and ran the meet through 1887.

In 1888 a rival organization to the NAAAA, the Amateur Athletic Union (AAU) came into being, quickly became the more powerful group, and held a national meeting in that year. The NAAAA, however, refused to fold immediately and also conducted a national championship in 1888 – thus there were two that year.

The national championship was held under the aegis of the AAU for almost a century. In 1978 the President's Commission on Amateur Sports was able to pass the Amateur Sports Act that delineated how amateur sports should be governed in this country. The AAU, which controlled the majority of the sports on the Olympic program, would see its powers severely crippled. A new organization, The Athletics Congress (TAC), was chosen to oversee track & field athletics. In 1980 TAC held its first national championship and control of the meet has rested there since.
Source http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/dis...cle.php?id=258
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Old 12-24-2009, 03:47 PM
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Here’s the latest updates on the Bailey. Being Christmas eve, I’ll focus on this a little today eve before I launch for Christmas.

I emailed the Manhattan Athletic Club to see if they had a period photo since they won it in 1890.…heard nothing back.

I emailed the New York Athletic Club for a photo….They replied that they had referred my email to their historian, but that he didn’t know of one, and “to his knowledge, there is no photo or illustration of the plaque in question. He will, of course, look into the situation, and if one is located, we will be sure to notify you.”

I emailed Bailey Banks & Biddle. Ironically BB&B are going out of business/liquidating. Naturally a Jewelry store liquidation sale is usually just a sales tactic, but it seems to be for real. BB&B is owned by a large conglomerate of jewelry stores named Finlay Fine Jewelry Corp and according to a story in the Washington Business Journal it’s really going out of business. http://washington.bizjournals.com/wa...1/daily86.html .
Which is kind of ironic I’d find their masthead creation bearing their name at the same time they are shuttering after being in business since 1832. Anyway….I emailed the corporate office and didn’t know what to expect. I got back an email explaining they don’t have a company historian but they gave me the name and phone number of someone at one of their stores who “is familiar with our older items”. I spoke briefly with her yesterday and she was very nice and will be glad to help if she can but was very busy. You can imagine how busy a store going out of businesses at Christmas time must be. I expect to hear from her after the holidays. Initially I asked a courteous “how are you” and she said sad…I asked why and she said because they were closing. I asked her how long she had been with them…30 years she said.

One thing I forgot to mention earlier; not directly related to my plaque but is Bailey Banks & Biddle related, was that the very same Sunday I got the plaque I won a c1908 Bailey Banks & Biddle catalog of sorts on eBay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWNX:IT
It was listed as a catalog, and sort of is, but it’s more an advertising pamphlet that showcases some of their best trophies of that time. When I say trophy…please know trophies are divided into two types…you have stock cups and such that could be ordered from a catalog and a company would engrave it as you ordered. The other kind of trophy are what is called “Presentation Silver”. These are one of a kind commissioned pieces. Works of art really, that were typically ordered by wealthy individuals of corporate entities. They were usually awarded for major renown events, yachting, auto races, etc. This Bailey plaque is an example of “Presentation Silver. Most of the presentation silver produced in America was done by Reed and Barton, Tiffany and Co., Gorham, and Bailey Banks and Biddle. Actually I featured just such a piece for my May 24th- 30th 2009 Sports Antique of the Week. Anyway, my catalog turned out to be a showcase of BB&B presentation silver produced in the 1908 era. I post below photos of the catalog. Please pay attention to the dimensions of the pieces otherwise it’s hard to grasp their impact…and remember they are sterling.

One more note…In all the flurry of researching my plaque I came across a reference to a trophy called the “Founders Week Cup” that Bailey Banks & Biddle made and that sold in DuMouchelles Auctions in Detroit March 22nd for $128,700. I didn’t think too much about it till I was thumbing thru the catalog and what’a ya know…there is was!

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2...ed-to-auction/

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/6244033















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Old 12-24-2009, 04:32 PM
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I have a large imperial cabinet of the Detroit Athletic Club, AAU champions from 1890. Here is a pic of the very bottom of the cabinet(after removing matting to send for repair, cleaning), somewhere I have a closeup of the trophy in the photo. Will post later if you have any interest.
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Old 12-24-2009, 11:51 PM
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Wow Paul....that's cool...Sure, yes I want to see the whole photo and of course a close in of the trophy...You will definitely want to re-mat it so the title and players can be seen....shame they covered it up all those years. Thanks a lot for posting...waiting for more of it
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Old 12-25-2009, 09:01 AM
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Default Bailey prize

Sorry for the poor photo quality. It's all I can do at the moment.
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Old 12-25-2009, 09:08 AM
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Carlton, this thread has been a fantastic read
Congrats on such a cool piece of American sports history.
Looking forward to seeing it restored on your cherry wood mount.
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Old 12-25-2009, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Wolt View Post
Carlton, this thread has been a fantastic read
Congrats on such a cool piece of American sports history.
Looking forward to seeing it restored on your cherry wood mount.
I concur with Jay.

A true centerpiece in even the most advanced collections.

Looks like Christmas came early for you Carlton. Well done.

Sincerely, Jimmy
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Old 12-26-2009, 04:25 PM
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Jay, Jimmy and All, Thanks so much for your kind words. It's very nice to be able to share finds with others that appreciate them. We all know most people you talk to about this stuff don't quite get it.
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Old 12-26-2009, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokeyjoewood View Post
Sorry for the poor photo quality. It's all I can do at the moment.
Photobucket
Paul, Thanks for posting that photo...little hard to make out but I think I'm seeing an example of a figural trophy I've never seen before...looks like figurals of a pitcher and a batter flanking a very 19th century looking urn/cup. Anxious to see a full shot of the photo. Thanks again. -C
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Old 12-30-2009, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokeyjoewood View Post
Photobucket


I have a large imperial cabinet of the Detroit Athletic Club, AAU champions from 1890. Here is a pic of the very bottom of the cabinet(after removing matting to send for repair, cleaning), somewhere I have a closeup of the trophy in the photo. Will post later if you have any interest.
Hi Paul, I'm looking forward to seeing a shot of the whole photo when you get time, thanks -Carlton
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Old 01-02-2010, 09:36 AM
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Carlton,

I don't have access to the pics at the moment. They are on another computer a few thousand miles away. When I get a chance I will either post them here, or email them directly.

Paul
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Old 01-25-2010, 03:30 AM
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18" tall x 16 3/4" wide
Been wanting to post this for almost a month....I've been going to the Alameda Point show about 12 years and never find any sports stuff there...at least my kind of display material. So I find the Bailey plaque..and a month later at the very next Alameda on Jan. 3rd of this month...I find this poster. It's what's called a literary poster. I have the Nov. 1896 Outing poster too and it has a football illustration as well. Anyway....Everyone knows Walter Camp who is referenced, but I noticed the name Wm. B. Curtis and vaguely recalled he was the one who initiated retiring my Bailey plaque...anyway I got the poster home and bingo....check out the stitch below...can you believe finding it one month to the day after getting the Bailey plaque...



So then last week I'm at the Long Beach flea and see the dealer that sold me the 1895 Nov. Outing poster, the guy in the striped shirt above...(by the way, you can read about my Long Beach Flea visit here)and while chit chatting I asked him where he'd gotten my poster...get this...he said he got it at a Out of the Closet thrift store in West Los Angeles for....$15.00!! He said initially he thought it was a repro but dug under the backing and saw it was real. I gave $375.00 and have no qualms at all that he paid $15.00....especially since I emailed a photo to Mark Weinbaum in NYC, who is one of the few poster dealers who deals in American posters. He sent the following:

...As for the Outing poster, I would say that this should be a $750/1000 priced poster. This particular Outing image is one I have seldom seen....

I sort of figured it was in that range. I've seen the image before on another poster..I can't recall exactly but I hope to run across it again....I think it was for either a U. Penn football poster or a Calif vs Stanford, and it was awesome and big and in color...I also recall it because the player in the center with his hand on the ball has kind of a crazy look! Anyway the poster had me on all points, Walter Camp, William Curtis who no one would know but me LOL, and the football image is very strong. It's unusual for a literary poster to be black and white, most had at least one magenta color, but on the other hand I think it's one of the strongest looking football images I've seen on a poster..and certainly for a literacy one. Has some fold you can't see unless you're looking for them....but if I get it mounted on linen they'll disappear completely.

And finally....I really hit pay dirt when I found both articles referenced on the poster, on line, click link below and you can read the actual articles
http://books.google.com/books?id=jV0...201895&f=false

And last, the artist Henry Sumner Watson (1868 -1933) is pretty well listed, see this link I'll also post a shot of the 1896 Outing poster I have



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Old 01-25-2010, 05:17 AM
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Default Kudos once again to Carlton...

Boy do I love this story, especially regarding the companion piece. That's the kind of stuff that fuels my fire. Well done once again Carlton!
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