This is why I use SGC only

People say there are 4 main grading companies. I can only think of one and that is SGC. PSA is good but can't ever get a cross over from them to work so that means they may have overgraded the card. Beckett, well never. GAI is goo and all but can't sell it for what it's worth. And then there is SGC. We all know them and they are reat even though they make mistakes they are always on the ball and fair with grading.

Here is a link to an Ebay member selling a T205 Dolly Gray No Stats in a Beckett 5 grade. I was thinking it was a .5 but it really is slabbed as a 5. I wish this guy worked at SGC and got all my cards

http://cgi.ebay.com/1911-T205-GOLD-B...3A1%7C294%3A50

Flash 617 is the user ID. I would like to hear your thoughs on this. Its as bad as the book I found published in 1960 and autoed by Ruth and Berra.

[Bicem]

accurately graded: poor or better.

[Jacklitsch]

Boy Jeff, you've got good eyes. I strained to read what was under the 5.

Yep, accurately graded "poor or better". But what's with the 5?

[terjung]

That is the difference between BCCG and BVG. Both are owned by Beckett, but BCCG goes from 5 to 10 instead of the 1 to 10 that we all know. It was developed for one of the shop from home TV stations in order to bump up the numbers on the cards they sold to unsuspecting buyers. In other words, a BCCG 10 is not a BVG 10, a BCCG 5 is akin to BVG 1 "or better"

[Kawika]

Something fishy here. Beckett 5 is an Excellent. I don't know if they grade cards at point five; maybe Mark Gehrigfan can weigh in. Seller should know better. I was impressed with the Beckett crew at the Chicago National; just like SGC they have an Avis We Try Harder spirit and I think they will gain a respectable place in the vintage side of things. Their holders will stop a bullet, too.

Beckett grading scale: http://www.beckett.com/estore/helpsy...?ArticleId=257

Edited after reading Brian's post: Wasn't aware of the distinction between BCCG and BVG; that's kinda stinky.

[Matt]

I think we had a some outrage over this when it first surfaced a few months ago - Beckett started a second grading system - I don't recall the name exactly; something like 'Collector Grading,' wherein the grading scale as we know it is completely shot and what you see there is a 5. No doubt confusing and bad for the hobby IMO.

As far as grading company accuracy, I think Beckett's normal BVG grading is up there with SGC, although I don't find their slabs nearly as attractive.

[botn]

BCCG (Beckett Collector's Club Grading) has been around for a number of years. For those who care...http://www.beckett.com/bccg/about_bccg.asp

[3-2-count]

I don't see the problem here. I'm sure the creases, scratches and rounded corners are simply on the holder and not the card.

[Tcards-Please]

This was mentioned a couple months ago.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...highlight=bccg


Straight from Beckett's Website:

"BCCG-graded cards (Beckett Collectors Club Grading) are completely separate and vastly different from the premium BGS- or BVG-graded cards. We can assure you that the same consummate care in handling is followed and consistent industry-leading quality of grading is applied to each and every card. As a result, BCCG-graded cards provide an eye-catching secondary market alternative to other graded card products, reaching a wider audience of fans and collectors. It features a modified numerical grading scale, with each level representing a range of standard conditions (Mint or better, Near mint or better, Excellent or better, etc.).
Furthermore, BCCG-graded cards are perfect for beginning or veteran collectors. Cards of a wide variety of star players are available in BCCG slabs. BCCG-graded cards are a perfect fit for the new collector who wants to be sure he's getting an excellent product from a trusted hobby source."

The grading of Poor or Better certainly looks to be correct for the card listed.

r/
Frank

[Ladder7]

I like BVG, but they need to stop kidding us. This BCCG thing is a shallow, money-maker that shoulda been flushed -along with the shmuck that implemented it.

To make 'em resemble the 'legit' BGS holder now, cruds up the entire brand. IMO

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by Ladder7

I like BVG, but they need to stop kidding us. This BCCG thing is a shallow, money-maker that shoulda been flushed -along with the shmuck that implemented it.

To make 'em resemble the 'legit' BGS holder now, cruds up the entire brand. IMO

I agree, Steve, and the fact the topic pretty much has flown under the radar with minimal outcry on this board is kind surprising. Then again, maybe not.

Can you imagine the reaction/indignation here if PSA had taken this route in an effort to generate income?

I stopped using, or recommending, any of the Beckett grading lines at the time they came up with the BCCG deal. PSA or SGC can handle anything I might have sent to BGS.

[jbbama]

BCCG is a joke.................i have no issues with BGS or BVG however.

The problem is BCCG is BCG or BVG. Why have a card slabbed by a do it your selfer type company and then slap your professional name right on the front. Its like having a sh!tty Sub Contractor on the job and saying he is as good as you. This is what gets me. I have seen some of the BCCG cards w/ grade 3's and 4's so this was the question as to why it fell as a 5. Poor or better is just wording. We all know when we look at a graded card other then the name of the player and type we look directly at the grade and wether the card is worth it. Now if some unsuspecting schmuck says here is a deal because a graded 5 card is selling for about $400 and gets this for $99 and finds out later the card is worth about $50 that is what will leave them pissed and scared. I am increasingly disappointed in the industry as time progresses and I find more crap.

Any where ther is money there is a theif waiting to take it from you!

[smtjoy]

They really should stop doing this, it's very misleading and shady in my eye.

[Kehfee]

I agree. I don't see the point in BCCG. That said, I have purchased 4 BVG graded T205's and all crossed over to SGC.

[Tcards-Please]

Although I agree that the numerical value is a little misleading, they do have the written determination below that. How is this different from any other advertising from major companies. When you go buy a car that advertises 0%financing, do you read the fine print below that or do you just go in there thinking everyone is entitled to 0%?

This is a cheap alternative for the beginners, along the same lines as PRO & GEM. If they can read the 5, then they can read the description below that.

Hopefully SGC and PSA will not follow suit.

Just my 2 pesos.

r/
Frank

[drdduet]

I disagree with it being along the lines of Pro and Gem...

BCCG is all it advertises to be, a less sophisticated grading service. It has its own scale and is not misleading to those who care to know what they are getting. It is a watered down service from BVG. It's a way to slab cards in a more general fashion. Nevertheless they are accurate within their own descriptors, whereas PRO and GEM are not.

I would like to see them, however, stick with the modern stuff with this service, and not allow prewar cards to be graded in this manner.

[Tcards-Please]

drdduet

I wasn't comparing grading styles between BCCG and PRO/GEM, I was stating that it was a cheap alternative to grading like the services of PRO & GEM.

r/
Frank

[Leon]

Originally Posted by drdduet

I disagree with it being along the lines of Pro and Gem...

BCCG is all it advertises to be, a less sophisticated grading service. It has its own scale and is not misleading to those who care to know what they are getting. It is a watered down service from BVG. It's a way to slab cards in a more general fashion. Nevertheless they are accurate within their own descriptors, whereas PRO and GEM are not.

I would like to see them, however, stick with the modern stuff with this service, and not allow prewar cards to be graded in this manner.

Well, I just now shot Mark (their director of grading and board member) an email to have lunch today as they have one of my cards back from JSA and have graded (or not) the card. I do, however, agree with Dr.Duet and his view above.....
Personally, I do think it causes some confusion though and that is not great for the BVG group, who does a nice job. Kind of like saying all chatboards suck.....when they don't.

[mikedenero]

Originally Posted by T's please

This is a cheap alternative for the beginners, along the same lines as PRO & GEM. If they can read the 5, then they can read the description below that.

r/
Frank

I think that the cheap alternative is a benign enough idea; however, the 5-10 scale is both dishonest and damaging to the hobby, as if it is confusing to us, imagine how confusing it is to beginners. I think we can all agree that we don't want beginners to be confused; rather, we want them to understand the basics of grading with little effort. Thus, the lower the barriers to entry, the better it is for all of us! One last thought. While I agree that if collectors can read the "5," they can generally also read the "poor or better" underneath the numerical grade (reading glasses needs aside). However, if Beckett lists a condition description (e.g., "poor or better"), why do they need a numerical grade at all? Why can't they simply write "poor or better?"

On a side note; I just received a call two days ago from a collector who got his first computer last week. He has been a collector of primarily ungraded material for 40+ years. He asked my opinion of the grading companies (my advice was to buy cards in three holders: SGC (IMO the best); with BVG/BGS (IMO second); and PSA (IMO third) -- but without a huge gap between first and third place). The next day he called me back to ask about BCCG, due to his understandable frustration and confusion. Needless to say, his opinion of Beckett is now neutral, at best.

[mikedenero]

Originally Posted by 3-2-count

I don't see the problem here. I'm sure the creases, scratches and rounded corners are simply on the holder and not the card.

Hilarious! That one made my day

[GehrigFan]

Ah yes... the great BCCG debate.

Okay, several points, but be forewarned that I am not going to spend the rest of the week in a circular argument. We'll agree right now that most of you (and myself) don't personally have a use for BCCG, but it is a very viable business model that the industry continues to want. As such, it isn't likely to go away anytime soon.

----------------------

The card is accurately graded as a "Poor" card. The numerical grade is a different scale than BVG/BGS. To whomever claims they have seen BCCG 3's, 4's, etc., that is incorrect. The BCCG scale is only 6 points (5, 6, 7, 8, 9 & 10) and the system won't even allow a lower number to be entered.

Sometimes we don't always agree with every product our employers put out, but there are legitimate reasons for the product to exist. Personally, if I was a graded card collector, I wouldn't want BCCG cards, because I am not a novice or beginner. This system was created back when home shopping channels and other people were churning out new grading companies where every card is a 10. This was misleading and, in my opinion, fraudulent. BCCG was created as a result of major distributors asking for a low-cost, entry-level encapsulating service that actually graded the cards accurately. Hard-core collectors, vintage collectors, and the like were never the target audience. Instead, this was for cards marketed on Shopping Networks, Walmart, K-Mart, Target, etc. The intent on the numerical grade was never to confuse or mislead. In retrospect, I wish the grading scale for BCCG had been skip-numbered somehow (1, 3, 5, 7, etc.), but then people would be wondering why they never saw a BCCG4 or BCCG 6 card. Either way, it would confuse some people. Ironically, this BCCG service that some people feel is misleading was create solely for the purpose of trying to clean up the other services out there that we thought WERE misleading. Would you rather have that card in a BCCG holder clearly labeled as "POOR", or in a XXX 10 Gem Mint holder ("XXX" being one of the many "every card is a 10" companies)?

We can authenticate, grade, and label (as Poor, Good, etc.) these cards correctly. But we cannot control how owners of these cards choose to describe them. If they want to try to trick people into thinking they are something other than a Poor card, in this case, how is that Beckett's fault when we accurately stated the card is in Poor condition? Is the numerical system a little weird? Sure, but how is it any different than a Near Mint card being called an "84 out of 100" and then also being called a "7 out of 10"? (My point not being anti-SGC, as I have no issue with their original system, because, like BCCG, cards are clearly marked as "Near Mint", etc.)

We have always steered people towards BVG on vintage cards and any higher end cards, and in fact, we steer all regular submitters to BVG or BGS. BCCG isn't a product that was designed for regular collectors or dealers. BCCG was supposed to be for corporate entities wanting massive amounts of cards authenticated and graded quickly and inexpensively.

Is there a need or desire for this type of service? I actually track every grading company, and thus far I have recorded 109 different grading companies over the last 15 years! We continue to do tens of thousands of BCCG cards each month, so yes, there is still a desire for this service. But we don't expect or want advanced collectors to use BCCG. The idea is that a new entry-level collector buys a BCCG card, gets interested in graded cards, and then moves up into the BVG/BGS/SGC/PSA services.

On the same note, does anybody remember "SGM" Grading? This was SGC's answer to BCCG a "light" version of SGC's scale. I don't believe it is offered anymore, and I never actually saw a card graded under the scale, but it was an advertised service shortly after BCCG was launched. Beckett obviously wasn't the only one trying to bring some order to the chaos of lower-tiered grading back then.

[barrysloate]

Why does an entry level collector need his own "simplified" grading system? Is the standard 1-10 scale a little too complicated for him? I don't understand the point.

[Ladder7]

Mark, Thankyou for clearing that up... So, when is Beckett dumping this diservice?

[Anthony S.]

BVG. BVS. BCCG.

FDR would have loved it.

[Potomac Yank]

*

[mikedenero]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Why does an entry level collector need his own "simplified" grading system? Is the standard 1-10 scale a little too complicated for him? I don't understand the point.

Funny! Barry, I think the guys from Spinal Tap should start their own grading service and introduce the 1-11 scale!

[barrysloate]

Mike- there actually was a grading service that used an 11 for cards that were removed from unopened packs with white gloves on the premises. I don't remember the details.

[GehrigFan]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Mike- there actually was a grading service that used an 11 for cards that were removed from unopened packs with white gloves on the premises. I don't remember the details.

SCD (the original version run by Krause, not after they sold it) had the "bonus " grade of 11. Not sure I ever saw one, but I know they advertised it.

[Jim VB]

Here's what you're looking for!

[kcohen]

I am going to dissent, at least in part. The possibly misleading numbers aside, there is an aspect of this approach that I find appealing. Gone are the inherent subjectivity and blatant inconsistencies of the numerical grading system. I don't much care for the grading thing in the first place, I admit it. But I recognize the need for it in the internet world. I would love to see a recognized and accepted system whereby cards would be slabbed authentic and unaltered only - allowing the collector to discern value and appeal based on aesthetics instead of some near invisible technical flaw in the paper. We wouldn't have to endure all of the "strong for the grade" or "severely undergraded'' crap. Maybe the credo "buy the card, not the holder" wouldn't ring so hollow anymore.

Of course, none of this could ever happen since the paper graders' ox would be gored.

Just one man's point of view.

[Bamacollection]

I am a little late getting in on this one, but I can't believe no one has stated what I feel is the basic foundation of any purchase...Know What You Are Buying! With todays advanced zoom features on almost every computer, you can easily justify or dismantle a grade on any slab. I am not at all offended by Beckett's approach to "why" BCCG exists. It again is the eBay dirtbag dealers who exploit the system. Maybe Beckett could limit the service to modern cards only. Or maybe we can all take a good look at the product in the slab. I have never submitted a card to BVG, but I feel Mark A. and his team are very capeble of providing a top notch grading sevice. In my experience with BVG cards, none have crossed to a lower grade, infact, most have received small upgrades. Why haven't I used them? When PSA became a none option for me, SGC was the only route I could turn to and trust. BVG was relatively new and GAI was going to be back Monday???? SGC has never disappointed me, other than some of my grades, and always over achieves in customer satisfaction. Yes, the hobby has turned to plastic to holster our prized little cardboard heroes. Yes, people are buying a number rather than the actual piece inside. But you can all decide if a 5 is an EX or PR/FR in the blink of an eye. Don't let the glare of the plastic or an affixed number take that from you.

Good luck and happy hunting!

[mikedenero]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

Here's what you're looking for!

Absolutely hilarious!!!!!!

[drc]

Note that a few years back SGC had its own BCCG type grading for on Shop at Home. It essentially was the same thing as BCCG. Also note that the grade is printed in English on the BCCG label. A German-only speaking collector would have valid excuse for not knowing what it says. I've never been in love with any 1-10 card grading system in the first place, so tinkering to that won't break my heart.