The Goodwin Plank and Magie are TRIMMED!

[Moonlight Graham]

Originally Posted by danmckee

3rd Party grading has hit an alltime low, these 2 cards are obviously hacked. You grading fanatics should see this nightmare and realize there is major problems with 3rd party grading.

I am shocked that the Scott I know would slab these 2 hack jobs.

What an embarrassment!

And to the double top secret chat board that has a field day on me where I can't defend myself, please tell me that the Piedmont 150 Plank that can only be hand cut and is blatantly hacked and the Magie that is blatantly hacked are properly graded??????????????????????????

3rd party grading is a CANCER AND A JOKE!

Sincerely,

Dan Mckee

dan' i'm not really sure why you call 3rd party grading a joke. every card i own is professionally graded. i try to buy the best condition of dead ball era stars that i can afford and i worry about counterfeits. i'm not educated enough to tell the difference myself. i know there are a lot of inconsistencies in the actual grades but do you think they actually slab fakes? i'm not trying to be a wise guy but i would like to hear your point of view on this-maybe i can get a different insight because i am brainwashed to have all cards graded-thanks and i look forward to your response!

[murcerfan]

profiteers and one eyed pirates...and secret handshakes and lies and drama and shit.

...........what a hobby.

[Vintagecatcher]

Dan and Frank,

You are not alone. A few of us have been around prior to this slabbing nightmare. Many of these new collectors think that if a card is graded by one of the top grading companies then the card must be original, and must not be altered. Many of these collectors have put a "blind faith" in these third party grading companies.

The only thing that third party grading/slabbing has done is drive up card prices for collectors. They created a false sense of security for naive collectors. Not only did they milk these collectors for slabbing fees...they then introduced "half grades" to continue the revenue stream further. Then they added their card registries to further inflate card prices as greedy collectors competed against one another.

This is just my humble opinion. I'm sure many will state how wonderful 3rd party grading has been for the hobby. I'm not buying that load of crap.

Patrick McMenemy

[Moonlight Graham]

Originally Posted by Vintagecatcher

Dan and Frank,

You are not alone. A few of us have been around prior to this slabbing nightmare. Many of these new collectors think that if a card is graded by one of the top grading companies then the card must be original, and must not be altered. Many of these collectors have put a "blind faith" in these third party grading companies.

The only thing that third party grading/slabbing has done is drive up card prices for collectors. They created a false sense of security for naive collectors. Not only did they milk these collectors for slabbing fees...they then introduced "half grades" to continue the revenue stream further. Then they added their card registries to further inflate card prices as greedy collectors competed against one another.

This is just my humble opinion. I'm sure many will state how wonderful 3rd party grading has been for the hobby. I'm not buying that load of crap.

Patrick McMenemy

patrick, i agree with you about "naive collectors" and "blind faith" because that describes me! but on the flip side, don't you guys think that old time collectors, and collections for that matter, now benefit from third party grading? if a collector has some really old and rare cards and wants to get rid of them, the auction house he chooses will most likely get them graded and authenticated if they feel the collection is worth big money. then the seller really benefits even if he didn't believe in having them graded himself. i'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you but just making a point of how a collector and future consignor could benefit from third party grading. eventually we probably will all part with our collections.

[Bilko G]

Originally Posted by murcerfan

profiteers and one eyed pirates...and secret handshakes and lies and drama and shit.

...........what a hobby.

and don't forget about the death threats too!!!!

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Moonlight Graham

dan' i'm not really sure why you call 3rd party grading a joke. every card i own is professionally graded. i try to buy the best condition of dead ball era stars that i can afford and i worry about counterfeits. i'm not educated enough to tell the difference myself. i know there are a lot of inconsistencies in the actual grades but do you think they actually slab fakes? i'm not trying to be a wise guy but i would like to hear your point of view on this-maybe i can get a different insight because i am brainwashed to have all cards graded-thanks and i look forward to your response!

Well, the obvious answer -- one which really doesn't depend upon whether you agree with third-party grading or not -- is to educate yourself so that you can make your own determinations. Are fakes slabbed? Yes, but hopefully not often. Do they miss altered cards? Yes, sometimes that happens too. Do they misgrade cards? According to lots of sellers on ebay, that appears to happen frequently, although very few cards seem to be overgraded

I'm not a huge fan of third-party grading, although I've certainly had many cards graded. Obviously, it has some utility in terms of allowing a person who can't see the card in person to form an opinion about the card's characteristics. However, relying upon the opinion of someone else should be in addition to, not in lieu of, obtaining knowledge about the card in question. Slavish reliance upon any third-party grader to tell you what you may be buying is very much a mistake IMO.

[CW]

Thread needs links. The Plank is a very intriguing card!

Plank.

Magie

It is interesting to note that both Goodwin and SGC knew they were poking a hornet's nest (so to speak) by giving this Plank a numerical grade. It seems they were very careful when grading it under such scrutiny from the hobby community.

As noted in the auction...

To safely assure you that the previously stated SGC grading process for this incredible T206 Plank heirloom is completely accurate, we are proud to post the following statement from BOTH SGC’s renowned president and head grader:



“When learning Bill Goodwin had a T206 Piedmont Plank, we clearly informed him that the card had to be hand-cut from a scrapper sheet and similar to the other handful that exist, would receive an “Authentic” assessment. Only ironclad circumstances relating to no evidence of trimming, whatsoever, could possibly enable us to encapsulate the card with a numerical grade. After scouring the card for what appeared to be an infinite amount of time, our unwavering opinion was to assign the current SGC 70/5.5 grade since not a shred of evidence relating to trimming exists under our finest magnification process. We stand by this card’s factory cut origin and vouch with 100% certainty that it was not hand-cut”.

€hû¢k Wölƒƒ

[Vintagecatcher]

Moonlight,

A seller would certainly benefit from having a collection graded when selling because people have "bought" into the myth that graded cards are what the grading companies say they are. That assumption can be and sometimes is a mistake. People are buying the grade and not the card.


Patrick

[Moonlight Graham]

Originally Posted by Vintagecatcher

Moonlight,

A seller would certainly benefit from having a collection graded when selling because people have "bought" into the myth that graded cards are what the grading companies say they are. That assumption can be and sometimes is a mistake. People are buying the grade and not the card.


Patrick

that's a good point patrick! unfortunately you described me again......most of the time

[alanu]

In any case that Plank is a beautiful looking card.

[Runscott]

Well, if it's not a Plank that's 'new' to the hobby, which one is it? Hey Chris...

[prewarsports]

I am probably still stuck in the stone age of card grading before the 3rd party system, but that Wagner is a clean VG card no questions asked ALL DAY LONG before the third parties got heavily involved and started making rules out of thin air that are now considered as baseball card gospel (pre 2000). I have no problem with the grade on that one.

Rhys

[wonkaticket]

I was going to start a thread that focused on this topic this week as I have my doubts on the cards the Plank in particular. But since Dan has seen his way to open the board with his typical curmudgeon napalm, I figure here is as good a place as any to discuss my concerns and or reservations publicly about this.

Being totally transparent I will bid so this is no way an attempt to devalue anyone’s listing or give an edge etc. Also any bidding I do especially in regards to the Plank will be limited by my overall concerns unless they can be eliminated. Not sure it really matters but I wanted it out there nonetheless.

The Plank card I feel is trimmed I come to this conclusion for a couple of reasons. Many of which I will summarize here but have been discussed here in detail before.

First the shear lack of numbers on this card along with the fact that all known previous examples (3) are hand cut or in some shape or form very easily identifiable as special or non-factory production cards, leads me to question.



While it could be argued that limited numbers of something isn’t necessarily a negative it can be a something to make one question. Example there are very, very few Doyle’s but more than (4) are present. Also of the known Doyle examples 75% of that population isn’t in some shape or form altered or non-factory cut in obvious ways. So there is little doubt to the Doyle’s once circulation or at least factory produced and cut state. The same can’t be said for Plank Piedmont cards.

Second there’s the relative number of Plank cards in general. This includes all Planks. Below is a link to a good majority of Plank specimens that have been offered or sold since about 1997 or so.

http://imageevent.com/piojohn3/collectionpublic/planks

If you have a Plank I’m missing and would like to share that would be appreciated.

You will notice that only about 16 examples out of close to 50 are of the 150 subject’s variety this includes known Piedmonts. Take away the Piedmont cards and based on this sampling roughly one in 4 Planks is a 150 card. There is little doubt that the Sweet Caporal 150’s were in fact distributed and or factory cut. Once again the same can’t be said of Piedmont Planks.

In fact the numbers really tend to point to the card not being produced and circulated. For example as tough as the 150 Sweet Caporal cards may be in comparison to 350 versions they are still available in a sizable sampling even in my limited snapshot (link). They are also available for the most part unaltered minus the ones that have had work done later in life.

Then there’s the card itself see for yourselves but I’m seeing non-factory cut things happening here if you disagree that’s cool that’s why it’s here for discussion.



Finally there is the body and write up. I would like to say that this is in no way a personal attack on the person who does the write ups as I consider him a very nice person and respect him.

The listing just seems too try too hard to get across “I’m not trimmed”. It also seems to be a direct counter to every publicly known aversion/theories on Plank Piedmont backed cards. All of this I guess is par for the course but it just seems odd. Example the added endorsement from the President and Head Grader of SGC.

To safely assure you that the previously stated SGC grading process for this incredible T206 Plank heirloom is completely accurate, we are proud to post the following statement from BOTH SGC’s renowned president and head grader:

“When learning Bill Goodwin had a T206 Piedmont Plank, we clearly informed him that the card had to be hand-cut from a scrapper sheet and similar to the other handful that exist, would receive an “Authentic” assessment. Only ironclad circumstances relating to no evidence of trimming, whatsoever, could possibly enable us to encapsulate the card with a numerical grade. After scouring the card for what appeared to be an infinite amount of time, our unwavering opinion was to assign the current SGC 70/5.5 grade since not a shred of evidence relating to trimming exists under our finest magnification process. We stand by this card’s factory cut origin and vouch with 100% certainty that it was not hand-cut”.

One would assume that once SGC graded and encapsulated the card into their SGC 70 marked holder that was endorsement enough. That action alone states their professional opinion the card is unaltered.

Does this now mean that all SGC cards need additional letters from company executives to verify grades? SGC has graded some very amazing cards over the year’s significant cards in fact. I have never seen such an endorsement so why now? It may be my skepticism popping up but the Shakespeare line "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" comes to mind here.

Then there’s the other cards in the collection lots of authentic cards in that album and amazingly the one super amazing rule breaker card that most folks would assume is authentic breaks all rules.

Add in the personal super-duper triple examination of this card, personal endorsements from company executives then flip to Lot #6 and one has to wonder did they get it right? Is this the Plank Piedmont 150 rule breaker?



I’ll say that I have been a huge SGC supporter and fan still am. In a hobby that has been questioning their existence I have supported them so there is no axe to grind here on my part. I also have a lot of cards in their holders. I would also like to add I disagree with Dan not all grading is a joke. Grading has played a lot of roles in our hobby since its inception some very positive and some not so much. With the rapid growth of our beloved hobby I think third party grading companies are standing at a very unique point in their existence.

One that can ultimately relate to added value and ultimately strengthen our hobby, or a catalyst of doubt and concern for collectors. I think TPG’s can make the place better and have for the most part. However continued success and growth will come from accountability and consistency for all not select cards and or circumstances.

In conclusion I’m not saying that we will never see a Piedmont 150 Plank that isn’t hand cut anything is possible. But in my collecting opinion the above Plank is not that card based on the card itself added with what is currently known about Piedmont 150 Planks.

Cheers,

John