Joe Doyle N.Y. NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"......PART 2

[Pat R]

Ted, I don't know why you think I said ALC didn't re-arrange the sheets
as a matter of fact I've posted several times that I think the layouts
and sheet sizes were changed through out the printing process but
I don't believe that 150/350 subjects were on the same sheet as
350 only or 350/460 subjects or that Doyle was printed very early
in the 350 printing.

I don't know that much about the T215-1 cards but I do know they
are scarce enough that it's hard to compare them with any
regular T206 printing.

Do you know for a fact that there were different
series together on the same sheet? As far as I know a single
Mathewson (White Cap) is the only confirmed 150/350 subject how do
we know that there wasn't a sheet of 150/350's printed and they are
scarce enough that no others have surfaced.

Do you believe that the Forrest Green Sovereign was printed before the
Apple Green and if you do why was Doyle printed with Apple green if he was
printed early in the 350 printing?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I don't know that much about the T215-1 cards but I do know they
are scarce enough that it's hard to compare them with any
regular T206 printing.

Pat
Check out the Standard Catalogue, all 96 cards in the T215 set are listed. My research iidicates that possibly two 48-card print runs were done. The 1st series in 1910 and the 2nd series of 48 cards in 1911 > 1912.
The Matty (white cap) was most likely included in the 1st series (with 350-only cards). It's interesting to see how up-to-date these cards are regarding trades. For example....Huggins (hands at mouth) is Cincinnati.
And, Huggins (portrait) is St. Louis.

Originally Posted by Pat R

Do you know for a fact that there were different
series together on the same sheet? As far as I know a single
Mathewson (White Cap) is the only confirmed 150/350 subject how do
we know that there wasn't a sheet of 150/350's printed and they are
scarce enough that no others have surfaced.

All 96 subjects in the T215-1 and T215-2 set are accounted for. Also, there are 2 cards of Byrne (Pittsburg and St Louis). Furthermore, a complete "PIRATE" set was discovered some years ago [97 cards (with Byrne's variations)].
The "PIRATE" set mirrors the T215 set.

Originally Posted by Pat R

Do you believe that the Forrest Green Sovereign was printed before the
Apple Green and if you do why was Doyle printed with Apple green if he was
printed early in the 350 printing?

Absolutely, the "forest green" SOVEREIGN 350 backs were printed before the "apple green" SOVEREIGN 350 backs.

And, as I've stated before, ALC selected 66 subjects to be extended into the 350/460 series. Three of these 66 guys were not printed with 460-type backs since their careers ended in the Major Leagues (Joe Doyle, Simon Nicholls,
Bob Rhoades). Why ALC printed the backs of these 66 subjects with a lighter ciolored Green ink is not really known.
My guess is that ALC simply wanted to distinguish them from the sheets with the regular 350-only cards.

Footnote.... Joe Doyle was a promising pitcher when he joined the Highlanders. And, ALC (being based in New York City) naturally favored the New York BB teams. And, I think ALC wanted to print more cards of him.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[steve B]

How about this?

It's Christmas, whether you celebrate it or not, kick back with your favorite beverage and have a wonderful evening!

After the holiday, lets get some high res scans of a bunch of both 150/350 and 350/460 cards and see if we can come up with two sets of identifiable positions or not. That may allow us to separate the 150's from 350's. Then we can compare to the elite 11 cards and see which group they match. That would also prove/disprove there being a clear division between series. I thought there was, but now I'm unsure. It's most likely 150/carryover or leftovers/350.

The Sovereign 350s may be a bit of a key, I'm currently thinking that the change wasn't a marker, just a change in the recepie for the ink. Probably leaving out some black to save money. But I'm open to changing that opinion.
I'm fairly certain the sheet size and layout may have varied between not only series but brand.

Have a great holiday, and lets get after this come the new year.

[Pat R]

With the exception of Dahlen and Lundgren who's team changes on
their cards resulted in them being short printed PD350's I don't think
the careers of the other nine were the reason for them being PD350
short prints.

There were lot's of other subjects from the 150/350 series with team
changes or whose career ended in the same time frame that are not
PD350 short prints.

Most notably Fielder Jones who has two 150/350 poses and his
career basically ended in 1908. He didn't play at all from 1909
until 1914 when he had 3 at bats with the STL terriers and
6 at bats with them in 1915 at the end of his career.

The following players careers ended in the same time frame as the elite 11


Alperman - 10/2/09
Bowerman - 7/13/09
Jiggs Donohue - 10/2/09
Ferris - 10/2/09
Billy Gilbert - 6/27/09
Bill henchman - Didn't play again until 1915 after the 1909 season ended
Isbell - 10/2/09
Liebhardt - 8/5/09
Frank Owen - 5/12/09
Pastorious - 8/23/09
Ritchey - 6/24/09
Shipke - 5/13/09
Weimer - Played in one game in 1909 5/28/09
Jimmy Williams - 10/3/09


I think the reason that nine of the elite 11 are PD350 short prints
is a matter of them getting omitted when they made the full change
to the 350 printing.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

With the exception of Dahlen and Lundgren who's team changes on
their cards resulted in them being short printed PD350's I don't think
the careers of the other nine were the reason for them being PD350
short prints.

There were lot's of other subjects from the 150/350 series with team
changes or whose career ended in the same time frame that are not
PD350 short prints.

Most notably Fielder Jones who has two 150/350 poses and his
career basically ended in 1908. He didn't play at all from 1909
until 1914 when he had 3 at bats with the STL terriers and
6 at bats with them in 1915 at the end of his career.

The following players careers ended in the same time frame as the elite 11


Alperman - 10/2/09
Bowerman - 7/13/09
Jiggs Donohue - 10/2/09
Ferris - 10/2/09
Billy Gilbert - 6/27/09
Bill henchman - Didn't play again until 1915 after the 1909 season ended
Isbell - 10/2/09
Liebhardt - 8/5/09
Frank Owen - 5/12/09
Pastorious - 8/23/09
Ritchey - 6/24/09
Shipke - 5/13/09
Weimer - Played in one game in 1909 5/28/09
Jimmy Williams - 10/3/09


I think the reason that nine of the elite 11 are PD350 short prints
is a matter of them getting omitted when they made the full change
to the 350 printing.

Thanks, Pat....thank you.

For reminding me that I did a similar study some years ago (including a few more 150/350 guys). But, when you check out the Pop Report data of these subjects,
you will see that their pop number's vary from 20-40 cards each with PIEDMONT 350 backs. Therefore, I considered that their situation did not compare with the
Elite 11 subjects.
Furthermore let me add that perhaps the Elite 11 were not consecutively positioned as I have shown in Post #1. But, they were printed on the same sheet as the
initial Joe Doyle print run.

In the late 1950's when I was in High School, I worked in a print shop. I tell you this, because I recall when the printer made a minor mistake, they simply threw
away the entire sheet.
Then corrected their mistake and started cranking-out new sheets. I think this is what occurred here.


I maintain, that the coincidences of the Elite 11 cards with the Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'l card (approx. the same pop report data; and, the Georgia connection) are just
too great to ignore.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Ted,

I waited to reply again hoping that someone like Scot who's opinion
you do respect would post. There are still many mystery's surrounding
the printing and sheets but with what we do know I think it's obvious that Joe Doyle was not on the same sheet as the "elite eleven"

You even have him on one of your 350/460 sheets in post #4 of your
Reference/Reflections thread.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816

[Bpm0014]

Anyone??


The repair done on the Doyle from all indications was simply stoning off the unwanted "Natl". I think the cards showing remnants of the N are solid evidence of that being done.

Is there a premium on these cards? I have a Doyle with a pretty neat portion of the NY Nat'l. Actually just a piece of the first N. But really neat....