Joe Doyle N.Y. NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"......PART 2

[tedzan]

Sept 2007, I started a thread on this forum titled Joe Doyle N.Y. NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"...... Elite 11

What originally influenced me to arrive at an association with the Joe Doyle error card and the Elite 11 is the story of Senator Richard Russell's original tobacco card collection (which is
on display at the Univ. of Georgia).

As some of you know, Russell's T206 set is very unusual, as it has both the Ty Cobb/TY COBB and the Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L cards. Now, here's where this story becomes very intriguing.
Approx. 9 years ago, a bunch of T206's from the Elite 11 group with PIEDMONT 350 backs were listed on Ebay. I won all of these rare cards; and, I contacted the Seller (who owned
an Antique shop in Atlanta, GA.
This Seller told me that a lady (who had purchased a desk from the Russell estate) found a considerable number of tobacco cards in this desk's drawer, and she brought them to him.
This story aroused my curiosity, so for the past 10 years (or so) I have been tracking the source of original T206 collections which have included some (or all) of the Elite 11 cards.
Well, every one of these sources are strictly from Georgia. No other location has been a source of the Elite 11 cards. Furthermore, there are only 9 examples of the Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L
card which have been confirmed (to date).


Sorry guys for this lengthy discourse. My point here is this....when the printers at American Lithographic caught their mistake very quickly on the Joe Doyle card's caption, they simply
discarded the entire 12-card strip which included the Elite 11 cards and the Joe Doyle error card.

Finally, last time I checked out the pop report data on the Elite 11 guys, it correlates very closely to the pop report data of the Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L card.



J Doyle NY Nat'l..^

Originally Posted by tedzan

The Elite 11 subjects are originally 150 Series subjects. When ALC started printing the 350-series cards they included 150 series subjects in the mix. The following info
may also explain why the Elite 11 subjects were short-printed with PIEDMONT 350 backs.

Dahlen (Boston)....joined Brooklyn, Oct 27, 1909

Ewing..................traded to Phillies, Jan 20, 1910

Ganley.................ML career ended, Sept 27, 1909

Tom Jones............traded to Detroit, Aug 20, 1909

Karger.................traded to Boston AL. Jul 26, 1909

Lindaman.............released from Boston NL, Jul 26, 1909

Lundgren..............ML career ended, Apr 23, 1909

Schaefer...............traded to Washington, Aug 13, 1909

Al Shaw................ML career ends 1909

Spencer................played only 28 games with Boston AL in 1909

Mullin................... ? ? (long and very successful Pitcher with Detroit)


And, then there is......a single Schulte (front) with PIEDMONT 350 back. I do not consider this subject as part of the Elite 11 group, until I see an EPDG back on this card.

TED Z
.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Ted, I don't think Doyle a 350 only subject would have been on a sheet
with eleven 150/350 subjects.

[hshrimps]

So we should expect to see more than 9 examples of the Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L?? Or those Elite 11 should only have 9 examples out there?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Ted, I don't think Doyle a 350 only subject would have been on a sheet
with eleven 150/350 subjects.

Hi Pat

Do we really know if American Litho (ALC) printed 350-only subjects with 150/350 subjects on the same sheets when ALC started printing 350 backs on the 150 series cards ?

However, we do know for sure that the 1st series printing of T215-1 cards (circa 1910) is comprised of a mixture of 150/350, 350-only, and 350/460 series cards.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[steve B]

That's pretty interesting.

Certainly something to think about.

The repair done on the Doyle from all indications was simply stoning off the unwanted "Natl". I think the cards showing remnants of the N are solid evidence of that being done. The alternative would be remaking the entire stone for that color.

But that also means that we'll probably never know. The repair would have been done early, and there are enough regular Doyles that any that were intended to be that early would get lost in the crowd.

It's possible they caught it, made the correction and finished the sheets already started intending to carry over the other 11 into the 350 series. The couple populations I looked at for epdg are really close, so maybe.

Then the corrected version got put onto another sheet that didn't include the other 11 because the lead time pushed production back enough that the other 11 guys were already out of the 350s

Food for thought, we'd know more if we could get a population on the ones showing a partial repair. Not much more since we don't know how many positions had the partial repair, but a bit more.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by steve B

That's pretty interesting.


Food for thought, we'd know more if we could get a population on the ones showing a partial repair. Not much more since we don't know how many positions had the partial repair, but a bit more.

Steve I ran a Net54 survey on the Joe Doyle printer's mark some years ago. The "poor man's" Joe Doyle error card (as I have coined it) appears approx. 7 % of the sampled cards.
Sample size was approx. 200+ cards......I think. I'll try and find this thread and post it here.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[steve B]

That's good enough for me, 7% is consistent with one position on a sheet roughly 14 cards tall. (12 is only around 8%, so a pretty wide range of other sizes work too.) So it makes sense if they missed a bit on one location while doing the repair.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by steve B

That's pretty interesting.

Certainly something to think about.

The repair done on the Doyle from all indications was simply stoning off the unwanted "Natl". I think the cards showing remnants of the N are solid evidence of that being done. The alternative would be remaking the entire stone for that color.

But that also means that we'll probably never know. The repair would have been done early, and there are enough regular Doyles that any that were intended to be that early would get lost in the crowd.

It's possible they caught it, made the correction and finished the sheets already started intending to carry over the other 11 into the 350 series. The couple populations I looked at for epdg are really close, so maybe.

Then the corrected version got put onto another sheet that didn't include the other 11 because the lead time pushed production back enough that the other 11 guys were already out of the 350s

Food for thought, we'd know more if we could get a population on the ones showing a partial repair. Not much more since we don't know how many positions had the partial repair, but a bit more.

There is a flaw on both that shows that they used the same sheet after they
removed the NAT'L.

Doyle NY Nat'L.jpg
Doyle NY Nat'L Back.jpg
Doyle.jpg

[Luke]

The Georgia connection is really cool. But the Doyle wouldn't have been on the same sheet as the Elite 11 guys. It's also very unlikely that the 11 were ever side-by-side on a sheet (because we know they weren't side-by-side on Piedmont 150 sheets).