PSA-A Cautionary Tale!

[seablaster]

Originally Posted by MattyC

It seems that PSA does not deal with problems well. Their default practice is to ignore problems, tap dance around them, adopt an overly defensive/combative posture, ban board members, and just wait for the storm to blow over. It is a pretty slimy way to conduct a business.

From the Wagner to the cellos to the George Bush card to trimmed 1975 minis, they rarely get out in front of a problem with candor and forthrightness. Some mistakes are tolerable in business and life, but it is how a company or person handles them that really counts.

The little dance they did with Miller on the posting of his grades, and the fact that the head of a card grading company would say, 'It's just a card,' goes to show how inept their current regime is at dealing with any adversity. Customer service wins people over and over again.

One has to wonder where-- without people logging in serial numbers of slabbed commons on their site, just to compete over GPAs-- PSA would be.

If someone ever invents a NEW REGISTRY that accommodates cards of ALL GRADING COMPANIES and catches fire-- PSA is in deep trouble.

Because in terms of consistency, holder aesthetics, turnaround times, and customer service, they are simply not the leader. Yet I can see how sellers or submitters have to deal with them and walk on eggshells, the way diamond dealers have to deal with their business' own cartel.

Very elegantly stated. Well done.

[3-2-count]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

I fully understand your frustration. A person in Joe Orlando's position needs to learn to take some criticism graciously and show some empathy towards someone who just learned that he lost a treasured collectible.

I agree with the above statement 100%.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Matt,

I fully understand your frustration. A person in Joe Orlando's position needs to learn to take some criticism graciously and show some empathy towards someone who just learned that he lost a treasured collectible. His behavior reminds me of the "Soup Nazi" episode on Seinfeld with this on-going pattern of instantly banning his customers.

+1

[h2oya311]

"No soup for you!"

[brian1961]

Matt--

Simply, I'm very, very sorry for what happened to you. That Aaron was gorgeous, and probably my favorite-looking card of Hank. The picture was extremely crisp.

Never let it be said, "it's just a baseball card". If they were really only "just", would we have this wonderful Net54baseball board? Would we spend what we have on the cards and now grading? Would we bother reading any books or magazines relating to cards and the players/teams that have captured our fancy?

"Just a baseball card"? Yeah, right. Just as baseball is just a game.

My sincerest wish is that you're able to get past this soon and still enjoy the hobby, and even that card, though the value has plummeted. At least what was printed on the card was unharmed, but I know that's not the point. Hang in there. Please know some of us are hurting with you. -Brian Powell

[bobbyw8469]

Matt, I am truly sorry that your card was damaged. Noone likes to see their $2,200 card turn into a $200 card through no fault of their own. Sounds like PSA made you whole and if they sent you back the card in a PSA 7, then you came out $200 ahead.

That being said, this is what I have an issue with. It is no necessarily about you Matt, just the state of the hobby in general. What would possess someone to crack out a PSA 8.5 in hopes of getting a 9? Obviously, it is the same card - nothing has changed except the flip on the label. It is easy to see why someone would do that. The PSA 8.5 was a $2,200 card. A PSA 9 in that card is a $10,000-$15,000 card. Same card. Basically, PSA and/or Matt was trying to manufacture money. I am not slamming Matt - just making an observation about the hobby that I have always hated. Don't get me wrong, I have cracked out a few cards myself WHEN I FELT THAT PSA GOT THE GRADE BLATANTLY WRONG! I would NEVER crack out a 8.5 hoping to get a '9' grade. Even though the monetary reward is so great, there is technically not much difference between an '8.5' and a '9'. Except in this case, thousands of dollars worth of paper gain for the same card. So basically, cards are no different than buying stocks or gambling. You made a move and you lost. Joe O's actions are inexcusable, however IMHO, you should have never put yourself in that situation to begin with.

[pclpads]

Well stated, Bobby!

[whitehse]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Matt, I am truly sorry that your card was damaged. Noone likes to see their $2,200 card turn into a $200 card through no fault of their own. Sounds like PSA made you whole and if they sent you back the card in a PSA 7, then you came out $200 ahead.

That being said, this is what I have an issue with. It is no necessarily about you Matt, just the state of the hobby in general. What would possess someone to crack out a PSA 8.5 in hopes of getting a 9? Obviously, it is the same card - nothing has changed except the flip on the label. It is easy to see why someone would do that. The PSA 8.5 was a $2,200 card. A PSA 9 in that card is a $10,000-$15,000 card. Same card. Basically, PSA and/or Matt was trying to manufacture money. I am not slamming Matt - just making an observation about the hobby that I have always hated. Don't get me wrong, I have cracked out a few cards myself WHEN I FELT THAT PSA GOT THE GRADE BLATANTLY WRONG! I would NEVER crack out a 8.5 hoping to get a '9' grade. Even though the monetary reward is so great, there is technically not much difference between an '8.5' and a '9'. Except in this case, thousands of dollars worth of paper gain for the same card. So basically, cards are no different than buying stocks or gambling. You made a move and you lost. Joe O's actions are inexcusable, however IMHO, you should have never put yourself in that situation to begin with.

If you have to ask why someone who thinks they have a card that is bumpable (if thats a word) and could potentially move the value of that card from, in your words, "The PSA 8.5 was a $2,200 card. A PSA 9 in that card is a $10,000-$15,000 card" then you really are out of touch Bobby.

Don't fault Matt, fault the system and the endless supply of registry owners who have more cash then sense who are always trying to one up their fellow registry owners. Yes, it was a gamble to have his Aaron bumped but that gamble should not have resulted in a card of impeccable quality being lowered to an average card all the while having the President of the company act like this was not a big deal. I would have EXPECTED Matt to be livid and I think each and every one of us would have done/felt the same thing.

And before someone else says it...the registry is a powerful drug.

[bobbyw8469]

"The PSA 8.5 was a $2,200 card. A PSA 9 in that card is a $10,000-$15,000 card" then you really are out of touch Bobby.

I think you missed the point of my post. I DO understand why he did it! He wanted to turn $2,200 into $15,000. Who wouldn't want to do that!! The card should have never been cracked out to begin with, unless their was a GUARANTEE that it would have gotten a '9'. Hell, once the card is cracked out, there is no guarantee he would have gotten it back into the same '8.5' holder that it was in. My point is this, if you play the stock market, and get burned, you have noone to blame but yourself. Matt could/should have done the review WITHOUT cracking the card out. That being said, I blame Joe Orlando for putting it in Matt's head that is was cool to crack the card out in hopes of getting a 1/2 point bump. If it wasn't the lure of $10,000 profit, Matt would have never did it.

[D. Bergin]

Kind of makes me wonder if that card was once an "8", got bumped up to an "8.5" when PSA instituted half grades, and was now attempting a "9".

I'm not a graded card guy, but the variances in grades are so minute I almost find it hard to believe that a card like that can be "cracked" out of a holder like that without some sort of damage, no matter how minute, being a near inevitability.

Back before anybody cared about microscopic defects, I must have nicked the corner of just about every other card I put into a rigid holder, a plastic carrying case, penny sleeve or a screwdown.

[Leon]

Until folks realize that the Registry is it's own competition and collecting niche, and really doesn't have as much to do with cards as it does flips, then folks will continue to have some angst towards it. Think of it as collecting bottle caps. Whoever gets the most, wins. IN a registry set, whoever gets the highest numbers on their pieces of paper, collectively, wins. It's not collecting cards. It's competing against friends to get the highest numbers on pieces of paper. If you look at it like that then it makes sense. I love the registry guys and the way they collect. They leave the type cards I collect alone. Bless their hearts.

[mark evans]

Another issue raised by this incident, and one that continues to baffle me, is the disparity in value between high-end grades. The difference in appearance between an 8.5 and a 9 is, in the best of worlds, miniscule, and, in reality, I suspect frequently non-existent or at least unreliable given the inherent subjectivity in the grading process. Accordingly, it strikes me that over time this disparity should be reduced as a general proposition. Whether or not there is any evidence of such a trend to date I couldn't say.

[barrysloate]

The fact that you can turn a $2200 card into a 15K card by having the label changed, when the difference between an 8.5 and a 9 is virtually imperceptible, is truly alarming.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by mark evans

Another issue raised by this incident, and one that continues to baffle me, is the disparity in value between high-end grades. The difference in appearance between an 8.5 and a 9 is, in the best of worlds, miniscule, and, in reality, I suspect frequently non-existent or at least unreliable given the inherent subjectivity in the grading process. Accordingly, it strikes me that over time this disparity should be reduced as a general proposition. Whether or not there is any evidence of such a trend to date I couldn't say.

As best I recall, early on in grading there was not the premiums on 9s that one sees now. The flip has its own value now in the market, for whatever reason, independent of the underlying card.

[RobertGT]

On thing you can always count on in this board is the constant drumbeat of criticism of collecting styles that are different from our own. You name it: registry collectors, 1980s wax boxes, shiny stuff, high-end rookie cards, those who collect only graded cards, those who collect only PSA, 1950s-60s cards (too common I guess) those who collect only 10s, etc.

With the current state of the hobby - rife with fraud and despicable characters masquerading as dealers - I think we should be happy people collect anything at all. And if they do, just let them be.

I may be a collector of worthless peanut shells. That is my right.

There is no right or wrong, so just let it be and be happy that people are providing business that at one time or another has benefited every single person on this board.

[MattyC]

I just said to a friend the other day, that the difference between higher end grades is the smallest in terms of CARD QUALITY, yet it is the largest in terms of price. That is an inverse relationship that really informs how I shop for cards.

If a 10 of a card costs 10k, and the most elite 9 costs 2k-- and is utterly indistinguishable from the 10 to the eye, why on earth would one pay such a huge premium for a card that is infinitesimally-- if at all-- better? The obvious answer is that the buyer wants that sticker for their Registry set, because it can't be all about the card itself.

This applies to any card where the next single grade up is a huge price leap. There will always be specimens that next grade below that look as good-- if not better.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by RobertGT

On thing you can always count on in this board is the constant drumbeat of criticism of collecting styles that are different from our own. You name it: registry collectors, 1980s wax boxes, shiny stuff, high-end rookie cards, those who collect only graded cards, those who collect only PSA, 1950s-60s cards (too common I guess) those who collect only 10s, etc.

With the current state of the hobby - rife with fraud and despicable characters masquerading as dealers - I think we should be happy people collect anything at all. And if they do, just let them be.

I may be a collector of worthless peanut shells. That is my right.

There is no right or wrong, so just let it be and be happy that people are providing business that at one time or another has benefited every single person on this board.

Criticism? I actually barely see any. All I see is people giving opinions. Why is it some people think that an opinion that is different than their own is criticism? I don't understand that.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Hey Matt! Did PSA return your 8.5 flip? and, how much do you want for it?

[RobertGT]

Originally Posted by Leon

Criticism? I actually barely see any. All I see is people giving opinions. Why is it some people think that an opinion that is different than their own is criticism? I don't understand that.

From your previous post, Leon: "IN a registry set, whoever gets the highest numbers on their pieces of paper, collectively, wins. It's not collecting cards. It's competing against friends to get the highest numbers on pieces of paper."

Yes you gave an opinion and absolutely you are entitled to it. But you are also making a sly jab at a registry collector - saying that what he's doing isn't really collecting, but apparently what you are doing is.

Maybe he just really loves sharp, beautiful cards? Same way someone loves an acclaimed painting or the finest automobile made? I am not a registry collector so I don't understand it exactly myself (mostly the cost of it) but I just tire reading about others' collecting styles put down in so many threads.

[mark evans]

Mine was certainly not a criticism of any method of collection, but rather a commentary on the marketplace and a prediction that over time I would expect a 'correction' in the very large disparity in value between high-end graded cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I just said to a friend the other day, that the difference between higher end grades is the smallest in terms of CARD QUALITY, yet it is the largest in terms of price. That is an inverse relationship that really informs how I shop for cards.

If a 10 of a card costs 10k, and the most elite 9 costs 2k-- and is utterly indistinguishable from the 10 to the eye, why on earth would one pay such a huge premium for a card that is infinitesimally-- if at all-- better? The obvious answer is that the buyer wants that sticker for their Registry set, because it can't be all about the card itself.

This applies to any card where the next single grade up is a huge price leap. There will always be specimens that next grade below that look as good-- if not better.

The same phenomenon happens in many fields. People will pay a premium for a brand name product even though it's the same as or inferior to a generic product, will pay more for a brand name with snob appeal over a "lesser" brand even though the lesser brand is the same quaility, etc.

[slidekellyslide]

Hey Mr Orlando, I hear that the first ever card slabbed by PSA turned out to be trimmed!

"So what, it's just a baseball card."

Hey Mr Orlando, one of my friends sent a very expensive card to you and it got lost while it was in PSA's possession!

"So what, it's just a baseball card."

[jbbama]

Matt, are you certain your received the same card back? Just curious? Interesting read.

[bobbyw8469]

Mine wasn't a criticism as well. Just an observation. I didn't see hardly any criticism as well. Not quite sure where Robert is coming from....

[Leon]

Originally Posted by RobertGT

From your previous post, Leon: "IN a registry set, whoever gets the highest numbers on their pieces of paper, collectively, wins. It's not collecting cards. It's competing against friends to get the highest numbers on pieces of paper."

Yes you gave an opinion and absolutely you are entitled to it. But you are also making a sly jab at a registry collector - saying that what he's doing isn't really collecting, but apparently what you are doing is.

Maybe he just really loves sharp, beautiful cards? Same way someone loves an acclaimed painting or the finest automobile made? I am not a registry collector so I don't understand it exactly myself (mostly the cost of it) but I just tire reading about others' collecting styles put down in so many threads.

Well, I am not making a sly jab at the registry collectors. So you are wrong. I said it isn't collecting "cards" and I don't believe it is. If you do, fine. I don't. Why is my opinion criticism? Maybe you need to re-analyze the way you perceive others opinions? Maybe it is YOU that has the issue? I truly don't care how people collect but prefer to call it like I see it. I am sure the registry guys have just as much fun as the rest of us. I know some of them and they are cool cats. Maybe you are angry at something else? Have you thought about seeking counseling?

[RobertGT]

Originally Posted by Leon

Well, I am not making a sly jab at the registry collectors. So you are wrong. I said it isn't collecting "cards" and I don't believe it is. If you do, fine. I don't. Why is my opinion criticism? Maybe you need to re-analyze the way you perceive others opinions? Maybe it is YOU that has the issue? I truly don't care how people collect but prefer to call it like I see it. I am sure the registry guys have just as much fun as the rest of us. I know some of them and they are cool cats. Maybe you are angry at something else? Have you thought about seeking counseling?

Really silly, juvenile response. Not worth responding to at all so I won't, other than to say I expected more of the moderator of a great board. Instead of given sound logic, I'm insulted and told to seek counseling. I guess that's not criticism either by your definition.

And I'm having a great day and not angry at all. You were just talking about perceiving others opinions or something? Don't hang yourself with your own noose.

[bobbyw8469]

I didn't see any criticism, and now this thread has gone south! It was really a good one too. Ugh.....I hate this always happens to the good threads!

[RobertGT]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

I didn't see any criticism, and now this thread has gone south! It was really a good one too. Ugh.....I hate this always happens to the good threads!

Bobby, have no worries. I have no intention to post on the thread again. It is a good thread - sorry to derail for a few minutes. Carry on - I've got to run out to my counselor.

[smtjoy]

Interesting thread.

I know a coin dealer who submitted a 4K coin 65 times at over $100 a pop walk thru, on the 65th try the coin got the grade he felt it deserved and became a 45k coin......

[CMIZ5290]

I still would like to hear Joe's side of this, some of you PSA haters may be a little surprised.....

[ullmandds]

kevin...please...let us know Joe's side of the story...I'd love to hear it...but I highly doubt we ever will.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

kevin...please...let us know Joe's side of the story...I'd love to her it...but I highly doubt we ever will.

You are probably right Pete, I'm sure Joe has better things to do than worry about this forum....

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I still would like to hear Joe's side of this, some of you PSA haters may be a little surprised.....

I would only be surprised if Joe actually responded. Kevin, Joe will handle this problem like they do all their other problems - just sweep it under the rug and hope it goes away.

When have you ever seen PSA handle a problem head-on on an open forum? Come on, you don't have to be a PSA hater to know that is how they deal with problems.

[botn]

Originally Posted by RobertGT

Really silly, juvenile response. Not worth responding to at all so I won't, other than to say I expected more of the moderator of a great board. Instead of given sound logic, I'm insulted and told to seek counseling. I guess that's not criticism either by your definition.

And I'm having a great day and not angry at all. You were just talking about perceiving others opinions or something? Don't hang yourself with your own noose.

Rob consider yourself luckey, er... lucky, the last Rob to voice a differing opinion to Leon's resulted in his telling that guy to F-Off.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by botn

Rob consider yourself luckey, er... lucky, the last Rob to voice a differing opinion to Leon's resulted in his telling that guy to F-Off.

From what I was told, Why don't you go shill some more of your auctions?

[seablaster]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

You are probably right Pete, I'm sure Joe has better things to do than worry about this forum....

I'm sure he does too Kevin, but he should be concerned with the way he and the brand he represents are being portrayed.

I too would be interested in hearing his response.

[CaramelMan]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I still would like to hear Joe's side of this, some of you PSA haters may be a little surprised.....

Mbmiller is not a PSA basher...in fact I used to think of him as a PSA supporter....
This is a sad thread.....

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by CaramelMan

Mbmiller is not a PSA basher...in fact I used to think of him as a PSA supporter....
This is a sad thread.....

Scott- did not mean Matt, but others on the Board....

[CMIZ5290]

I have spoken with Joe Orlando for about 25 minutes, maybe longer....As I said before in other posts, both sides need to be heard pertaining this situation. From Talking to Joe, the beginning of the conversation is pretty much agreed upon, but then rapidly changes. Joe relayed to me that any open discussions can be made to him personally, and he is always open to talking with Net54 members....

[nolemmings]

I know a coin dealer who submitted a 4K coin 65 times at over $100 a pop walk thru, on the 65th try the coin got the grade he felt it deserved and became a 45k coin......

So when he sold it can be said he flipped a coin?

[CMIZ5290]

the silence is chilling....

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

the silence is chilling....

What are we supposed to say? You talked to him, not us. Just go ahead and tell us what he said.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

The fact that you can turn a $2200 card into a 15K card by having the label changed, when the difference between an 8.5 and a 9 is virtually imperceptible, is truly alarming.

Alarming, amazing, ridiculous, appalling, horrifying, dismaying and a few words I cannot think of at this moment.
I am an autograph guy, and we certainly have our problems too, but the card grading and registry sets BS does make me chuckle.
This is like guys comparing their penis size and one shouts MINE IS BIGGER THAN YOURS. Wow, my registry set is better than yours, I fell for the PSA BS, I drank the PSA Kool-Aid, BUT I WON.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

What are we supposed to say? You talked to him, not us. Just go ahead and tell us what he said.

call Joe, 888-469-2646

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

call Joe, 888-469-2646

Kevin, there is no need for every interested board member to call Joe. He spoke with you, can't you relay what he said? Did he say not to say anything?

[bobbyw8469]

Kevin, there is no need for every interested board member to call Joe. He spoke with you, can't you relay what he said? Did he say not to say anything?

+1 .... what is the big secret?

[BBSD]

Matt- Sorry for your loss, that sucks. Please post a picture of your returned card you said you would post? Thanks, Barry

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I still would like to hear Joe's side of this, some of you PSA haters may be a little surprised.....

I think everyone would be surprised to hear Joe's side on any public issue brought out against PSA since he publicly stays quiet about everything.

[HRBAKER]

A party makes a claim about PSA on the board. Another party calls PSA and they have a different take on the whole affair than the one which portrayed them in a negative fashion. Shocking.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Kevin, there is no need for every interested board member to call Joe. He spoke with you, can't you relay what he said? Did he say not to say anything?

David- no big secret, call the man. Just what I said in an earlier post, things that were said got twisted. As far as the "it's just a baseball card", evidently Joe got amnesia on that....Again, his business is baseball cards....why would he say that, and ban Matt from the boards? Come on people!