T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

* * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *






Hey guys,

Getting back to the main topic here....my research has identified one more subject to add to this group of T206's in the 350-only Series. Apparently, Bob Hall was
not printed with CAROLINA BRIGHTS, EPDG, OLD MILL, nor POLAR BEAR backs, so we can include in him in this unique club.

Now this 37th subject doesn't alter the configuration of their printed sheet. Thirty seven subjects were printed on a 36-card sheet by simply replacing a particular
guy (due to his MLB retirement or Trade prior to that press run) with another subject. American Litho did exactly this with the 37 subjects printed with AMERICAN
BEAUTY 350 (no frame) cards. Simon Nichols (who retired) was replaced with Jake Stahl on a 36-card sheet. Refer to Post #39 in this thread for more information
regarding this.


New checklist of this "exclusive" group of 37 subjects that are 350-only series No-Prints with respect to CAROLINA BRIGHTS, EPDG, OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR.

MLB retirement date (or Traded date) in bold letters. Numbers for you to ponder.

Arndt
Becker ……………………………………… April 4, 1910 (traded to NY Giants)
Butler
Cassidy
Charles ….......…………………………… May 1910 (Ret.)
Donovan (throwing)
Doolan (fielding)
Downs
Fletcher
Hall
Hoffman (St Louis)
Howell (portrait) ..….......……………… May 1910 (Ret.)
Huggins (portrait)
Huggins (hands at mouth) ……………. February 3, 1910 (traded to St Louis NL)
Hunter .......……………………………… May 1910 (Ret.)
Killian (portrait)
Knabe
Lennox
Malarkey
Marquard (portrait)

Marshall
McBride
McElveen
McGinley
McIntyre (Detroit)
Mitchell (Cincinnati)
Mitchell (Toronto)
Moran (Providence)
Myers (batting)
Paskert
Phelan
Poland
Rhoades (hands at chest) ………...….. Aug 1909 (Ret.)
Schmidt (portrait)
Starr ...................................………. July 16, 1909 (traded to Phillies)
Street (portrait)
Summers
.

OK, so WHO replaced WHO ? ?

These T206's were printed circa Spring 1910....so, your guess is as good as mine.


TED Z
.

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by tedzan

OK, so WHO replaced WHO ? ?

These T206's were printed circa Spring 1910....so, your guess is as good as mine.


TED Z
.

Player stats and time periods is still my weak area of this set.

Here's a few numbers I found looking at my spreadsheets.

By using the 202 card (350 Only) list,
136 cards with Polar Bear
66 cards without Polar Bear
42 cards without CB, EPDG, OM, PB
20 cards with CB, EPDG, OM but without PB
3 cards with CB, EPDG but without OM, PB
1 card with CB but without EPDG, OM, PB

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by tedzan

OK, so WHO replaced WHO ? ?

These T206's were printed circa Spring 1910....so, your guess is as good as mine.


TED Z
.

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

Player stats and time periods is still my weak area of this set.

Here's a few numbers I found looking at my spreadsheets.

By using the 202 card (350 Only) list,
136 cards with Polar Bear
66 cards without Polar Bear
42 cards without CB, EPDG, OM, PB
20 cards with CB, EPDG, OM but without PB
3 cards with CB, EPDG but without OM, PB
1 card with CB but without EPDG, OM, PB

I just looked at the total population numbers for the 37 cards. Nobody really jumps out at me. Especially the 6 cards you added stats to. Not counting Huggins, numbers range between 444-481 for PSA. Not counting HOF cards, the others of the 37 range between 333-507 cards. Lower population numbers for the minor league cards. I was looking for an obvious short print in the group.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE...Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


....Sweet Caporal ...... Sovereign ......... Piedmont_____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards_____ Sovereign…. American Beauty .…. UZIT



[/B]This thread will provide references to major contributions posted on Net54 these past 14 years that have formed a better understanding of "The Monster" [as Bill Heitman
so aptly coined his T206 book (circa 1980)].

Let's start with the 2005-2006 publication of Scot Reader's Inside T206
An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series.

One of the early and very significant T206 threads was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ?
This thread sparked lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's. It included surveys; and, various aspects of the T206 series were explored.....resulting in 363
meaningful posts. Furthermore, between many of us Net54ers, this thread was...."the beginning of a beautiful friendship" (to quote Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca).

In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start
in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set

Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle
"error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11


Subsequent posts in this thread will expand on theory's regarding the structure of the T206 series and the front/back permutations that have resulted. A fair number of the
theory's presented on Net54 (since 2006) have withstood the test of time. Providing accurate lists of which front/back combos were printed. And, which ones are No-Prints.

So, stay tuned......many more T206 "oldies but goodies" References and Reflections will be posted here.

And, feel free to contribute any meaningful T206 stories, or experiences collecting T206's that you have.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________

INDEX

Post #1......Introduction....plus Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, and 3 significant T206 threads (circa..2006) for starters.

Set your user settings to display 50 posts per Page. Then click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted.


Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints"

Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (apple green cards)

Post #5......350/460 series backs identified

Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards

Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery

Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection

Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded

Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) sub-set

Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back

Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb

Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection

Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series)

Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects

Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's

Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set

Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story

Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story

Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure

Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's !

Post #93.....T206 "Proofs"

Post #96.....UZIT checklist

Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins

Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911)

Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist

Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman

Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist

Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist

Posts #128 - 131.....Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ?

Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards

Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards

Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards

Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued)

Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards

Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards

Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint)

Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards

Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards

Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards

Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's

Posts #231 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s)

Posts #263 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's

Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards

Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards

Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects......

Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist

Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005

Post #378.....Remembering Jantz Morey

Posts #379 >> 385.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #386 >> 402.....T206 printed sheet structure

Posts #405 >> 440.....Show us your BROAD LEAF 350 cards

Posts #441 >> 450.....Comparable printing patterns of the T206's and T205's

Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set

Posts #469 >> 470.....Guess the selling price of a COMPLETE SOVEREIGN set

Posts #471 >> 474.....Guess selling price of a near complete PIEDMONT set

Posts #476 >> 479.....Guess selling price of a complete SWEET CAP, F#30 set

Posts #481 >> 515.....Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds"

Posts #516 >> 536....."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards

Posts #537 >> 551.....Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis cards exist ?

Posts #553 >> 554.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams

Posts #561 >> 570.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams

Posts #571 >> 572.....FYI: 350 Series Minor Leaguer's checklist and trivia

Posts #573 >> 573.....T206 Southern League cards illustrated

Posts #574 >> 579.....T206 "Monster" obsession ? ....Check-out this one !

Posts #580 >> 597.....Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ?

Posts #598 >> 600.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #601 >> 603.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #605 >> 621.....the TOLSTOI story

Posts #622 >> 623.....Meet me at Philly, we can Talk T206's

Posts #624 >> 635.....CYCLE 460 checklist

Posts #636 >> 650.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement

Posts #651 >> 664.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement

Posts #665 >> 669.....UPGRADING T206 cards

Posts #671 >> 674.....And then, there are times to down-grade your T206's

Posts #675 >> 692.....Black LENOX checklist

Posts #693 >> 697.....Check-out Jamie B's multi-brand T206 card

Posts #698 >> 700.....Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back

Posts #701 >> 713.....Reprising the Ty Cobb / TY COBB card debate

Posts #714 >> 726.....CYCLE 350 checklist..... where have all the CYCLE 350 cards gone ?

Posts #727 >> 741.....the enigmatic Lajoie (with bat)..... Post your inputs and/or cards

Posts #742 >> 750.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them

Posts #751 >> 760.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them

Posts #761 >> 800.....How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Posts #801 >> 821.....How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Posts #824 >> 832.....Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards

Posts #833 >> 850.....T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here

Posts #851 >> 853.....T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here

Posts #854 >> 883.....What backs are your favorite(s), and do you collect runs of them ?

Posts #884 >> 900.....Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS

Posts #901 >> 916.....Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS

Posts #917 >> 944.....MISSION (99%) ACCOMPLISHED American Beauty 460 run. Show your favorite run

Posts #945 >> 950.....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards

Posts #951 >> 960.....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards

Posts #962 >> 984.....Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards (Re-visited)

Posts #985 >> 1000....... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card

Posts #1001 >> 1002..... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card


In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors.
However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s).


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Listed below are the 23 subjects in the 350-only Series which are NOT part of print group of 190 subjects
which were printed with these stylistically designed framed backs...…





Barger
G. Brown (Washington)
Byrne
Collins (Minneapolis)
Cross
Dahlen (portrait--Brooklyn)
Demmitt (New York)
Joe Doyle
Elberfeld (portrait--Washington)
Evans
Gray
Groom
Kleinow (catching--New York)
Lundgren (Kansas City)
Mattern
McLean
Mowery
O'Hara (New York)
Puttman
Rhoades (arm extended)
Rossman
Shannon
F. Smith (Chicago--white cap)


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

I just looked at the total population numbers for the 37 cards. Nobody really jumps out at me. Especially the 6 cards you added stats to. Not counting Huggins, numbers range between 444-481 for PSA. Not counting HOF cards, the others of the 37 range between 333-507 cards. Lower population numbers for the minor league cards. I was looking for an obvious short print in the group.

Ron

I, too, first checked out the pop-report data. The PSA data is sort of confusing. The SGC pop-report data is straightforward. And, like you, I did not see any significant differences.
So, I checked out the Baseball-Reference.com for these 37 players. There I found out that George Hunter's only MLB stats were in 1909 (Brooklyn). Due to his weak performance,
both as a pitcher and an outfielder, Brooklyn sent him down to Montreal. Hunter faired better in the Minors (1907-1908, 1910-1917).

Therefore, George Hunter is my candidate for the subject who most likely was replaced.

Who, replaced him is still a good question.

TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *





I think I arrived at a hasty conclusion in post #904. Further research indicates there was a lot of changeability going on when this group of 37 guys were printed.
Approx. 30 % of this group of 37 guys were either Retiring or being Traded. Therefore, trying to figure out which subject was replaced, and which subject was the
replacee 110 years ago is just a guessing game.

Anyhow, what I really find fascinating is how American Lithographic produced such high quality (complex) Sports and Non-Sports cards more than a Century ago.


Listed here, are the guys in this group of 37, who Retired or were Traded just prior to (or during) the print run of these T206's....circa Spring of 1910.

Becker …………………………………………….. April 4, 1910 (Traded to NY Giants)
Charles ….......……………………………...… May 1910 (Retired)
Howell (portrait) ..….......………..……… May 1910 (Retired)
Huggins (portrait) ……………………….... February 3, 1910 (Traded to St Louis NL)
Hunter .......…………………………………….. May 1910 (Retired)
Marshall …………………………………………….Oct 1909 (Retired)
McElveen …………………………………………..Apr 26, 1909 (MLB debut with Brooklyn)
Mitchell (Toronto) ……………………………..Aug 23, 1909 (Acquired by New York Highlanders)
Moran (Providence) ………………………….Sept 1, 1909 (Acquired by Boston NL)
Rhoades (hands at chest) ………...….. Aug 1909 (Retired)
Starr ...................................………. July 16, 1909 (Traded to Phillies)


TED Z
.

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by tedzan

* * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *





I think I arrived at a hasty conclusion in post #904. Further research indicates there was a lot of changeability going on when this group of 37 guys were printed.
Approx. 30 % of this group of 37 guys were either Retiring or being Traded. Therefore, trying to figure out which subject was replaced, and which subject was the
replacee 110 years ago is just a guessing game.

Anyhow, what I really find fascinating is how American Lithographic produced such high quality (complex) Sports and Non-Sports cards more than a Century ago.


Listed here, are the guys in this group of 37, who Retired or were Traded just prior to (or during) the print run of these T206's....circa Spring of 1910.

Becker …………………………………………….. April 4, 1910 (Traded to NY Giants)
Charles ….......……………………………...… May 1910 (Retired)
Howell (portrait) ..….......………..……… May 1910 (Retired)
Huggins (portrait) ……………………….... February 3, 1910 (Traded to St Louis NL)
Hunter .......…………………………………….. May 1910 (Retired)
Marshall …………………………………………….Oct 1909 (Retired)
McElveen …………………………………………..Apr 26, 1909 (MLB debut with Brooklyn)
Mitchell (Toronto) ……………………………..Aug 23, 1909 (Acquired by New York Highlanders)
Moran (Providence) ………………………….Sept 1, 1909 (Acquired by Boston NL)
Rhoades (hands at chest) ………...….. Aug 1909 (Retired)
Starr ...................................………. July 16, 1909 (Traded to Phillies)


TED Z
.

Your right about it being a guessing game. The unknown is what fascinates me the most about this set. Even though it was 110 years ago, so much history and information is still unknown or lost. It's like we are archeologists deciphering the Dead Sea Scrolls. Well maybe not at that level but you know what I mean.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

Your right about it being a guessing game. The unknown is what fascinates me the most about this set. Even though it was 110 years ago, so much history and information is still unknown or lost. It's like we are archeologists deciphering the Dead Sea Scrolls. Well maybe not at that level but you know what I mean.

Ron

An excellent analogy.
And, here is my take. I liken our research to the Rosetta stone, which I'm sure you know allowed us to decipher the Egyptian hieroglyphics by reading the accompanying Greek text.
In fact, I have read the entire Greek text, and what it tells us is very fascinating in that it reveals that life has not changed these past 2200 years. I'll tell you what it says in private.


TED Z
.