Sir shill is at it again

[danmckee]

Look at the percentages bid with this seller on this puppy!

Would you pay $200+ for a recently made item??

http://www.ebay.com/itm/120788378920...84.m1426.l2649

[Ease]

They are original art pieces and very cool imo. Maybe not 200$ cool but...and they have a loyal following, which probably explains the "shilling".

[Leon]

I am in the wrong business. There were 5 bidders over $200. I guess there is a good demand for $200+ fantasy pieces, albeit very neat ones.

[Danny Smith]

They are cool and consistently go for strong prices. I would rather spend that money on a prewar card but they do have a very loyal group of buyers.

[JustinD]

I've been noticing the crazy prices those Helmars are going for. It seems any major players have averaged around 250, it's crazy prices for pieces that seem to have no collector value.

I have been sort of racking it up to misinformation. The winners have seemed to not have very high feedback scores, which leads me to believe they are not seasoned collectors buying these, but posssibly newbies who think these may be real pieces. I wonder what the return rate is? As we all know, people rarely read descriptions, glance at photos and blame the sellers for what they clearly did not notice.

As far as shilling on these, it's possible. However, I have always put shilling on the shoulders of stupid people. If someone gets shilled on the Bay it's their own fault. I only put the first bid in because I don't want people to end auctions early, if there is a previous bid I put it on my watch list to show interest to the seller. Then I either use "auction sniper" or if I have the time available, snipe it myself. Bidding against people during the span of an auction wastes money, time and encourages shilling. There is very little opportunity to shill a sniper (really only one...a reserve ).

[53Browns]

Yes they are cool, but they are fantasy pieces and I don't think they will every hold any real value over the long term. However, I suspect the people buying them think otherwise.

[ullmandds]

Whomever is creating these pieces is saavy...they create cards with new images...many negro leaguers/latin players with very few if any real...vintage cards. New, unusual poses of big name HOF'ers.

Personally I'd rather spend my money on these...than new shiny stuff. When placed in sheets or stacks with real...vintage cards...most people would never know the difference!

Also a good way to fill HOF holes in HOF collections of ultra rare/expensive players otherwise unattainable.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

When placed in sheets or stacks with real...vintage cards...most people would never know the difference!

I think that's the big problem right there.

Also why they are selling for several hundred each. I can bet we all will be seeing these represented as real pieces for many years to come by many shady folks.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Whomever is creating these pieces is saavy...they create cards with new images...many negro leaguers/latin players with very few if any real...vintage cards. New, unusual poses of big name HOF'ers.

Personally I'd rather spend my money on these...than new shiny stuff. When placed in sheets or stacks with real...vintage cards...most people would never know the difference!

Also a good way to fill HOF holes in HOF collections of ultra rare/expensive players otherwise unattainable.

I don't know. I'd rather spend $1 to buy a modern shiny Babe Ruth than >$250 for this one. Or I'd spend $250 for a shiny Jeter RC in PSA9 than this kind of card.

[ullmandds]

I agree a DJ rookie in PSA 9 may be a better investment over time...but personally I don't like what new bb cards have become...they don't interest me in the least...esp these stoopid Allen and Ginter or T206 cards of new players. I don't get it...it's like taking two totally unrelated ideas and merging them...it doesn't work for me! To each there own, right!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I think that's the big problem right there.

Also why they are selling for several hundred each. I can bet we all will be seeing these represented as real pieces for many years to come by many shady folks.

Probably, but that doesn't seem to be the seller's intent. Not like those 'Feldman' cards that were designed to appeal to thieves.

I agree with most here, that these are pretty amazing. I would prefer to see sets of these, not roughed-up, sold at reasonable prices - very cool.

You can almost hear Mickey thinking: "look at the crooked baseball!"

http://www.ebay.com/itm/R319-Helmar-...-/120791790662

[JustinD]

I don't think it's that particular sellers intent at all, outwardly. The description clearly states they are modern. I am just saying that I know a ton of ebay users rarely read descriptions and bid based on photos. That's their own fault however, but still true. The faked wear is also very deceptive, I admit the first time I glanced at one I thought it was a real piece I was unaware of for a minute. The real problem here is on the secondary market when these buyers go to sell in the future, just like the myriad of Mantles, Cobbs and Ruths sold on Ebay as unmarked replicas what use do they have except to deceive? I just can easily see a parent, grandparent or uninformed collector shelling out a ton for one of these sold as a real piece at an antique mall or flea market. They should have VERY clear manufacture dates on every piece. The fact that they fake wear and leave off dates makes this a very suspect practice.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I know a ton of ebay users rarely read descriptions and bid based on photos. That's their own fault however, but still true. ...I just can easily see a parent, grandparent or uninformed collector shelling out a ton for one of these sold as a real piece at an antique mall or flea market.

People have to take responsibility for their own actions. We can not be responsible for going around watching the people you describe to make sure they don't do stupid things with their money, nor is it possible for us to do so.

If someone pays 'a lot' on ebay, thinking it's a vintage card, I have no sympathy for them, as no one has any business spending big bucks on items they know nothing about; i.e - they should at least know whether or not a set or card was ever made.

Regarding buying these in antique stores, etc. - again, you've got no business spending big bucks for something you know nothing about; i.e-these were not created using vintage methods, and if you can hold one in your hand, then you can tell it's not vintage. If you can't tell (such as the people you describe) then buy something you have expertise in.

I know this sounds harsh, but people have to take some responsibility for their own actions.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I know this sounds harsh, but people have to take some responsibility for their own actions.

Not harsh at all, and I feel the same way. I would have absolutely no issue with these whatsoever if they were dated. Some of them are quite beautiful and well done, they would make a nice set to look at. They have had a few Cobbs that were amazing. My only qualm is without dates they are either knowingly or unknowingly aiding in deceit. I just have to put them in the same corner as the other unmarked fakes on ebay without that date.

[JustinD]

I thought this card was great, but it should be around 10 bucks. I don't see how it got to this level at all.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/R319-Helmar-...item1c1f2f4e9b

My problem is in the item specifics they claim that this is pre-WWII which is a blatant lie. Then there is only two references in the description that this is a modern manufactured card.

One is a redirection for legal purposes to a blog that explains the card process - "If you are unfamiliar with Helmar art cards please read the full description, thank you. You may enjoy reading our blog about art and cards at helmarblog.com ."

And then buried several paragraphs in is the following sentence - "Since each card is hand made, no two look exactly the same. This is a time consuming endeavor with the aim of sharing my love of the game, it may be two months or more before you see another one similar to this. No more than just 6 of this card will be made and sold during a 12 month period. Most likely the number will be only 3-4."

The buyer had to just read an entire bio on Cobb and much more and that is the only reference in the listing to this being a modern replica. With these vague descriptions and straight out lies about the manufacture dates in the item specifics it brings a lot of question as to if the bidders really know what they are getting.

[glchen]

The other problem to confuse buyers is that the card is listed under the era Pre-WWII (pre-1942), with again, no date listed on the card. To me, the seller / maker is trying to be in the gray area between trying to con buyers, yet protecting themselves.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I thought this card was great, but it should be around 10 bucks. I don't see how it got to this level at all.

The buyer had to just read an entire bio on Cobb and much more and that is the only reference in the listing to this being a modern replica. With these vague descriptions and straight out lies about the manufacture dates in the item specifics it brings a lot of question as to if the bidders really know what they are getting.

Yes, it's very irritating that they would claim it's pre-war, and that the seller avoids words such as 'reprint' that I could use to filter him out of my searches; however, the buyer didn't actually have to read any of the stuff you mentioned - all he had to do was look at the card image to know it's not a real card. Seriously, there was never such a card and anyone with $350 to spend should know that. If the buyer could NOT tell it was not real, then certainly he should have read that wordy description prior to bidding - in fact, I would sentence such a numbskull to reading a Chinese translation of 'Finnegans Wake'.

[D. Bergin]

I really don't think anybody bidding on these regularly thinks they are old.

I also did what I always do when a description wastes my time with a long bio. I skipped right past it to the information I was looking for.......which I assume most are conditioned to do by now on Ebay.

I've also, never ever.........ever paid attention to the "Item Specifics" Ebay is so kind to include for us in the listing. If you don't have time to read the actual description, you shouldn't have time to place a bid of more then $10 on anything.

These aren't for me and I've never bought one, but I do think they're pretty neat.

If a modern Stephen Strasburg card can sell for $16,000+........I really don't see why an attractive and obviously limited edition card using original artwork of All-Time Greats can't bring a couple hundred bucks or more to the right player collectors.

[glchen]

Some card buyers aren't that knowledgeable, and what if it was a wife or a son/daughter buying a card for someone that they knew loved cards. They might not have a clue about this.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Yes, it's very irritating that they would claim it's pre-war, and that the seller avoids words such as 'reprint' that I could use to filter him out of my searches; however, the buyer didn't actually have to read any of the stuff you mentioned - all he had to do was look at the card image to know it's not a real card. Seriously, there was never such a card and anyone with $350 to spend should know that. If the buyer could NOT tell it was not real, then certainly he should have read that wordy description prior to bidding - in fact, I would sentence such a numbskull to reading a Chinese translation of 'Finnegans Wake'.

They aren't "reprints"..............I agree with the rest of your post.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by glchen

Some card buyers aren't that knowledgeable, and what if it was a wife or a son/daughter buying a card for someone that they knew loved cards. They might not have a clue about this.

They should read the description.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

They aren't "reprints"..............I agree with the rest of your post.

That's a good point.

I created a reprint set at one point, and there was kind of a heated discussion over it (but really very civil). Ultimately, I got a really great laugh out of the whole thing - ask Jay. The link below is extremely old - I quit making these sets when I nearly cut a finger off. I still have a prototype set where I included the player stats and description on the back of the card. Also have a prototype set of the ones I sent to Jay - I still get a chuckle when I run across those cards.

They were larger than the real thing, printed on much thinner rough stock (very thick watercolor paper), had an artsy stamp on the back, and had a script 'RP' on the front of each card, but in a very inconspicuous place.

http://runscott.homestead.com/OJReprints.html

[JustinD]

Well there's not one person on this board that would think these are real.

But, to say that someone that does not know that should not be buying is not really fair. I have been collecting for about 27 of my 37 years and I still run into oddball stuff that I know nothing about. I may be at fault for that because I love oddball and test issues and worse am a type collector so I am constantly searching out those things that I don't know about. However, during those years there has been many holidays that my wife or a relative thought they were doing me a big favor and bought cards because they knew I liked them. (I think there's a few boxes of early 90's wax in the back of the closet from great gifts like that. ) Money is relative also, I am on a very limited budget, but have several friends that have to ability to drop thousands thoughtlessly. I have a buddy who spends my house payment on wine monthly. They might think that a Babe Ruth card is great investment, hell, their stock portfolios sure aren't. I don't think everyone at the coin shop buying gold can tell me squat about numismatics. I know the average joe bidding on cards on the Bay, especially vintage, has a very small portion of the knowledge of this board. I still think some people know what they are getting here, and putting the phrase "limited quantities" on it make them think they can get their money back, there's a lot that don't. My real point, however is not mostly what this seller is doing now, but what these cards do in the future. I think honestly by commandeering the name "Helmar" a real issue that was vintage and survives a cursory quick Google search and pretending you have a Brewery or putting "Helmar Cigars" or whatever, they are trying even harder to be sneaky.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Well there's not one person on this board that would think these are real.

But, to say that someone that does not know that should not be buying is not really fair.

I think it's completely fair. The point is, if you are out of your element, don't spend like you know what you're doing. This isn't the cleanest hobby, and technology will allow it to get even dirtier.

I had a friend who thought he got a super-fantastic deal on a diamond ring for his fiancé. When he went to get it appraised ten years later, he found out it was cubic zirconium. He could have bought from a legit dealer, but he learned the hard way.

[smtjoy]

I like and own a couple Helmar and I to would purchase them over todays modern.

The one issue I do have with their listings on ebay is I do not think they should be able to list in the Pre WW2 Era section, that also goes for all the modern that gets listed their too. I wish ebay or we could do something about that.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Runscott

People have to take responsibility for their own actions. We can not be responsible for going around watching the people you describe to make sure they don't do stupid things with their money, nor is it possible for us to do so.

If someone pays 'a lot' on ebay, thinking it's a vintage card, I have no sympathy for them, as no one has any business spending big bucks on items they know nothing about; i.e - they should at least know whether or not a set or card was ever made.

Regarding buying these in antique stores, etc. - again, you've got no business spending big bucks for something you know nothing about; i.e-these were not created using vintage methods, and if you can hold one in your hand, then you can tell it's not vintage. If you can't tell (such as the people you describe) then buy something you have expertise in.

I know this sounds harsh, but people have to take some responsibility for their own actions.

I completely disagree..this isn't some shady basement dweller making these cards it's a beer company doing it...they should be putting dates on these cards...and not only are they leaving off dates, but they are also using the R319 catalog number on fantasy cards??? This company also made Cap Anson padlocks that fooled a lot of veteran memorabilia collectors. I think what they are doing is highly irresponsible.

[JustinD]

It's not even a beer company.

They just use a fictitious name to manufacture memorabilia. The address of Helmar Brewery on their website is five minutes from my house. I can assure you there is no Helmar Brewery there.

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by JustinD

It's not even a beer company.

They just use a fictitious name to manufacture memorabilia. The address of Helmar Brewery on their website is five minutes from my house. I can assure you there is no Helmar Brewery there.

It is (or was) a beer company as I have drank some, naturally being lured by the baseball theme.

[steve B]

They're not pretending to have a brewery. The brewery is real, as are the snack products. Unless you figure having a medal winning craft beer that's sold at retail in a local market to be pretending

They have another series of cards that's actually inserted into the chip or caramel corn bags too.

So, Legit brewery. legit snack food brand. Issuer of a more traditional card series.......Figure those are legit too, unless you discount stuff like 1960+61 Fleer, 72 rold gold, Shakeys Pizza, 63 Bazooka all time greats.....

The prices of the ebay stuff seem high, higherthan I'd pay for most. But they are limited edition art items. What will happen with prices in the future is a guess, the sold out stuff has settled at more realistic prices, and they're no worse than any of the stuff I've seen over the last 30 years that was supposed to be "good" - And probably better than most.

Steve B

Originally Posted by JustinD

Well there's not one person on this board that would think these are real.

But, to say that someone that does not know that should not be buying is not really fair. I have been collecting for about 27 of my 37 years and I still run into oddball stuff that I know nothing about. I may be at fault for that because I love oddball and test issues and worse am a type collector so I am constantly searching out those things that I don't know about. However, during those years there has been many holidays that my wife or a relative thought they were doing me a big favor and bought cards because they knew I liked them. (I think there's a few boxes of early 90's wax in the back of the closet from great gifts like that. ) Money is relative also, I am on a very limited budget, but have several friends that have to ability to drop thousands thoughtlessly. I have a buddy who spends my house payment on wine monthly. They might think that a Babe Ruth card is great investment, hell, their stock portfolios sure aren't. I don't think everyone at the coin shop buying gold can tell me squat about numismatics. I know the average joe bidding on cards on the Bay, especially vintage, has a very small portion of the knowledge of this board. I still think some people know what they are getting here, and putting the phrase "limited quantities" on it make them think they can get their money back, there's a lot that don't. My real point, however is not mostly what this seller is doing now, but what these cards do in the future. I think honestly by commandeering the name "Helmar" a real issue that was vintage and survives a cursory quick Google search and pretending you have a Brewery or putting "Helmar Cigars" or whatever, they are trying even harder to be sneaky.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I completely disagree..this isn't some shady basement dweller making these cards it's a beer company doing it...they should be putting dates on these cards...and not only are they leaving off dates, but they are also using the R319 catalog number on fantasy cards??? This company also made Cap Anson padlocks that fooled a lot of veteran memorabilia collectors. I think what they are doing is highly irresponsible.

You might disagree with me, but you're stating that you disagree with something I didn't say. I agree with you that they should identify these as not being actual old cards. I think I actually stated as much.

Do you really disagree that people have to take responsibility for their own actions? that they should be spending big bucks on items they know nothing about?

Scott <===not the same as his straw man

[glchen]

The part about people having to take responsibility for their own actions is VERY gray. This is true if the seller is very forthcoming about their actions. However, if the seller is not, like in this case where they are deliberating not dating the cards, then it is suspect. Your thought is like saying that all of the people that Bernie Madoff deceived are 100% at fault, and Madoff is not. Those investing in Madoff should've known that this guaranteed returns were impossible. There is a part where people should be responsible for themselves, but should they if they are being scammed?

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Runscott

You might disagree with me, but you're stating that you disagree with something I didn't say. I agree with you that they should identify these as not being actual old cards. I think I actually stated as much.

Do you really disagree that people have to take responsibility for their own actions? that they should be spending big bucks on items they know nothing about?

Scott <===not the same as his straw man

People definitely should educate themselves before plunking down big dollars for fantasy items, the problem I see is that this company not only is making these cards, but also manufacturing fantasy memorabilia items like the Anson Padlock...as you and I both know there are plenty of memorabilia items out there that are thought to be one of a kinds..when you make something to look old, don't date it or put any identifying marks on it at all then IMO you're being irresponsible. If you ran into that padlock in an antique mall you wouldn't know it wasn't old.

http://www.antique-padlocks.com/pg_s...lmar_anson~1~2

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

People definitely should educate themselves before plunking down big dollars for fantasy items, the problem I see is that this company not only is making these cards, but also manufacturing fantasy memorabilia items like the Anson Padlock...as you and I both know there are plenty of memorabilia items out there that are thought to be one of a kinds..when you make something to look old, don't date it or put any identifying marks on it at all then IMO you're being irresponsible. If you ran into that padlock in an antique mall you wouldn't know it wasn't old.

http://www.antique-padlocks.com/pg_s...lmar_anson~1~2

I agree that they are being irresponsible. Makes you wonder what their intent is, making items like the padlock you describe.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

It is (or was) a beer company as I have drank some, naturally being lured by the baseball theme.

Subcontracted to a small batch brewer. Anyone can do it, just like the snacks. The only thing Helmar brews up are those labels.

I decided I wanted some ice cream so I cruised by the "headquarters" of Helmar Brewery just now out of curiosity. It's a 1930's era house in the middle of a nice neighborhood. Which I basically knew because a have a good friend that lives two blocks from there. I can say he's making a decent living out of the basement there.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by steve B

They're not pretending to have a brewery. The brewery is real, as are the snack products. Unless you figure having a medal winning craft beer that's sold at retail in a local market to be pretending

It's just a gimmick grab for cash, don't fall for the website. It's just as window dressed as the auctions. The "World Expo of Beer" is just a local competition in a small community north of me in Frankenmuth Mi. It's main sponsor is the local Frankenmuth Jaycees, It's really not huge bragging rights that your subcontracted beer won once in 2005 facing a handful of only local competitors. Honestly, the award should have went to the brewery that made it, not the guy who sent them the labels. The beer is only produced a couple times a year, probably right around opening day. It's just a plain beer with a snappy label. It reminds me of my Dad teaching me that some lures catch fish and some just catch fishermen.

The snacks are probably an even smaller distribution. I can tell you that I have never seen them and supposedly this is Helmar's stomping ground. The site has no distributors listed. Basically, this guy just put this stuff out like his cards, a little smidgen at a time so people think it's something. I'm not impressed, and I'm not giving him one iota of credibility. He's not Bazooka, he's the wedding I went to last summer that had beer called "Jim and Michelle's Brew." It's the same thing.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by JustinD

It's just a gimmick grab for cash, don't fall for the website. It's just as window dressed as the auctions. The "World Expo of Beer" is just a local competition in a small community north of me in Frankenmuth Mi. It's main sponsor is the local Frankenmuth Jaycees, It's really not huge bragging rights that your subcontracted beer won once in 2005 facing a handful of only local competitors. Honestly, the award should have went to the brewery that made it, not the guy who sent them the labels. The beer is only produced a couple times a year, probably right around opening day. It's just a plain beer with a snappy label. It reminds me of my Dad teaching me that some lures catch fish and some just catch fishermen.

The snacks are probably an even smaller distribution. I can tell you that I have never seen them and supposedly this is Helmar's stomping ground. The site has no distributors listed. Basically, this guy just put this stuff out like his cards, a little smidgen at a time so people think it's something. I'm not impressed, and I'm not giving him one iota of credibility. He's not Bazooka, he's the wedding I went to last summer that had beer called "Jim and Michelle's Brew." It's the same thing.

Interesting...I really thought Helmar was something I could just go down to the liquor store and buy. So apparently this IS just some guy making these things out of his basement.

And Frankenmuth is where one of my best friends grew up...I went back there with him a few years back..it's a really neat little town.

edited to add: So this guy is advertising his beer along with his "art" cards...Can we presume that he is paying the licensing fees to the proper estates of Babe Ruth, et cetera?

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Interesting...I really thought Helmar was something I could just go down to the liquor store and buy. So apparently this IS just some guy making these things out of his basement.

Well after visiting the headquarters...maybe a spare bedroom?

I think if he draws much more attention, the licensing will really come into play. I had not even thought of that.

[steve B]

Ah, now things come together! I didn't know the contest was that small. There's probably too many beer awards these days.

The fine print on the label says Michigan Brewing Co, so private label but using Helmars recepie. They're currently doing a vanity brand for Kid Rock, so it looks like that's part of their business. (Fad beers like Billy beer, JR beer, M.A.S.H beer were all brewed by various brewers, so it's nothing new)

I guess the question is how big a business has to be to be "real"? If you have actual product -even a vanity brand with extremely limited distribution and a home office to run it from is that not a real business?

Even making leeway for card sets done while the players were current leaves a ton of collectors sets in the Gimick grab for cash category. And sets with a deliberately short printed card? Pretty much the same thing to me.

so 33 goudey, George C Miller, US Caramel.....Gimicks?

Helmar gets denounced for using R319 , but Topps gets a pass on allen and ginter and T206, Tristar gets a pass on Obak, UD? gets a pass on Goudey or diamond stars or whatever name they used....

Is a gimick ok from a big company but not a tiny one?

Steve B

Originally Posted by JustinD

It's just a gimmick grab for cash, don't fall for the website. It's just as window dressed as the auctions. The "World Expo of Beer" is just a local competition in a small community north of me in Frankenmuth Mi. It's main sponsor is the local Frankenmuth Jaycees, It's really not huge bragging rights that your subcontracted beer won once in 2005 facing a handful of only local competitors. Honestly, the award should have went to the brewery that made it, not the guy who sent them the labels. The beer is only produced a couple times a year, probably right around opening day. It's just a plain beer with a snappy label. It reminds me of my Dad teaching me that some lures catch fish and some just catch fishermen.

The snacks are probably an even smaller distribution. I can tell you that I have never seen them and supposedly this is Helmar's stomping ground. The site has no distributors listed. Basically, this guy just put this stuff out like his cards, a little smidgen at a time so people think it's something. I'm not impressed, and I'm not giving him one iota of credibility. He's not Bazooka, he's the wedding I went to last summer that had beer called "Jim and Michelle's Brew." It's the same thing.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by steve B

Ah, now things come together! I didn't know the contest was that small. There's probably too many beer awards these days.

The fine print on the label says Michigan Brewing Co, so private label but using Helmars recepie. They're currently doing a vanity brand for Kid Rock, so it looks like that's part of their business. (Fad beers like Billy beer, JR beer, M.A.S.H beer were all brewed by various brewers, so it's nothing new)

I guess the question is how big a business has to be to be "real"? If you have actual product -even a vanity brand with extremely limited distribution and a home office to run it from is that not a real business?

Even making leeway for card sets done while the players were current leaves a ton of collectors sets in the Gimick grab for cash category. And sets with a deliberately short printed card? Pretty much the same thing to me.

so 33 goudey, George C Miller, US Caramel.....Gimicks?

Helmar gets denounced for using R319 , but Topps gets a pass on allen and ginter and T206, Tristar gets a pass on Obak, UD? gets a pass on Goudey or diamond stars or whatever name they used....

Is a gimick ok from a big company but not a tiny one?

Steve B

I don't like Topps 206 or any of the other companies using existing names..mainly because it's made ebay much harder to search for vintage cards...But I bet all of those companies are paying licensing fees to use the images of former players...I'd sure like to know if Helmar is doing so.

Until this thread I seriously though Helmar was some big brand name only because of these cards, and I think that's what Helmar wants us to think.

[JustinD]

Well personally, I don't see any corelation to Topps T206 or Tristar. I don't think even the biggest of morons would think those were a vintage issue as they have modern players placed in a vintage look on glossy stock and are not individually doctored to look old. Plus, even on a legal front, I would bet those names were legally used and the vintage player's estates properly licenced. Most importantly, I can pick up each of those issues and flip them over to find a date. There is no attempt made to deceive. While I might not want a Justin Verlander T206, I know no one is going to drop 300 on it as a vintage piece. What Helmar is doing here is manufacturing unmarked vintage pieces meant to deceive the eye, it's not close to the same thing. Like I have said, if these pieces are not meant to deceive than properly date them all, then I have no problem at all. I don't think the millions or so Fritsch reprints fooled anyone. They looked new on new stock and are marked. The reprints say reprint, and the fantasies have dates. I just want Helmar to mark their crap. I noticed on the "Helmar Cigars" (now they are a tobacco company) issues he put out had a small 2010 on the back. Can't complain about that, if he did it once why not all the time?

[steve B]

I'd be surprised if Topps was paying anything to Burdicks estate or anyone else for using the T206 designation, which should still be under copyright. The Scott stamp catalog publishers have gone after small time catalog publishers for using their numbering system. (Their licensing fee is very small)

Personally I've never really understood the licensing of images of public figures. Ruth can't benefit anymore from his right of publicity, and if I find an unpublished photo of him I should be able to reproduce and sell it.
And prints of an original artwork should be allowed as well - even if they're card sized. But it's out there and probably cheaper for Topps to license than fight.

It does look like he's changing them to make them less likely to be mistaken for vintage cards. The ones that look like crackerjacks have a date on the back, and the more recent Goudeyish ones have a multi color back with what looks like a date in the copyright circle. Small, but bigger than the copyright date on any new product.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/R319-Helmar-...item1c1fc0661a

I really don't know what to say about someone spending 2-300 on something they don't know anything about, other than that it's not something I'd do. Especially these days when it's really easy to find information about something.

Steve B

PS- Has anyone seen the new disclaimer on the Topps wrappers?

[sirraffles]

My name is Charles Mandel, I own Helmar Brewing and make the cards that you are discussing. Wow, I didn't realize that I was causing such a fuss. How best to respond? I must admit that the insinuations in this thread did get a bit under my skin.

I can tell you that I've been collecting since I was ten years old, which is now more than forty years ago. Time does fly. I attended every show that I could find when the hobby began to grow in the 1970's and eventually I traveled to shows all around the country. It was an exciting hobby back then. There was a real sense of comradery and excitement. At every show, no matter how small, there was something new to see. It hasn't been like that in a long time now, but anyone that experienced it will never forget it. I try to bring a little of that thrill back through the cards that we make. We strive to delight collectors with something that they've never seen before...something that perhaps just should have been made but never was.

In the nineties my collection was stolen and I thought that was the end of my collecting days. Not only could I not afford to buy back copies of cards that I once owned, but the thought of paying perhaps $500 for something that I once cherished and purchased for $2 really stuck in my craw. Happily, I eventually returned to my collecting roots when a master brewer and I formulated and marketed Big League Brew. I paid handsomely for licensing from the Ruth and other estates, by the way. Far from being an off-the-shelf recipe, it took us a couple years to get the product to taste the way we wanted it to. We distributed it in five states. And yes, I was proud when we eventually won that Gold Medal at the World Festival of Beer. It is actually a well respected competition that attracts submissions from all over. If you consider Miller, Bud et al real beer companies you'll be happy to know that they participate. I've turned down opportunities to resume distribution over the last couple of years because I have something in mind regarding that beer and others. But I digress.

Let me skip forward to the cards. There are no tricks, no subterfuge. I paint some myself and work with a couple great, great artists to make the best cards that we can. A lot of thought and effort goes into these. I'm humbled that there are collectors out there that enjoy them as much as I do, and humbled that they are willing to pay generous prices in order to acquire them. The market sets the price, by the way, and that is a great way to do it.

I see a lot of the posts have to do with the possibility that at some time in the distant future some crook might try to sell the cards as being older than they are, perhaps as some variation of the original Goudey set or something along those lines. Hmmm. Most of the common players in our R319-Helmar series already sell for more than the common players in the original Goudey set in similar condition. A crook is far more likely to try to sell a reprint as genuine and we don't make reprints. Besides, a crook from the future could take any item, any item at all, in your own home and misrepresent it.

Oh, there was someone that wondered how many returns that we get. Only once has someone sent a card back, about a year ago. Ironically, he had paid only about $15 for it--around a third of what the card has sold for more recently.

Among the grumblings I read there is one thing that did set me back, the complaint that Helmar items are listed on eBay in the Pre WWII category. It didn't occur to me that this was a problem for some collectors. I had, in fact, checked with eBay prior to listing the items there. They said that it wasn't a problem and in fact one can find hundreds, if not thousands, of modern cards of old players listed there. My thought is that collectors looking for players from that era would more likely look there than anywhere else. And, of course, virtually all the cards we make are of early players.

I don't check this board very often, you can reach me through my email...or at eBay! Best, Charles

[scgaynor]

I am going to buck the trend here and say that I think these have more of a chance of being collectible in the future, and probably have more investment potential than pretty much any modern piece made by Topps, UD, or whatever.

They seem to be pretty interesting, and if each is actually one of a kind and produced in small quantities, they are pieces of art. I can see people buying these in the future similar to how people buy Perez-Steele original art now. A card that is really interesting and has a great image may bring a huge premium in the future, but they have to cross the plane of novelty into art.

Scott

[Bridwell]

I think Charles did a great job explaining about his company. I met Charles in the 1970's and have followed the progress of his company. It's very impressive and the collectibles are well done. I've bought a few.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by sirraffles

Among the grumblings I read there is one thing that did set me back, the complaint that Helmar items are listed on eBay in the Pre WWII category. It didn't occur to me that this was a problem for some collectors. I had, in fact, checked with eBay prior to listing the items there. They said that it wasn't a problem and in fact one can find hundreds, if not thousands, of modern cards of old players listed there. My thought is that collectors looking for players from that era would more likely look there than anywhere else. And, of course, virtually all the cards we make are of early players.

I don't check this board very often, you can reach me through my email...or at eBay! Best, Charles

Yes, in the Pre WWII category without a date on the cards. Why no dates? Certainly it makes more sense for you to put these in Pre WWII, since they look very old and feature players who played back then, but there needs to be some indication on the card that they are not actually from that period.

And, just because ebay allows something, doesn't mean it's not deceptive - in fact, ebay is all for anything that will get higher prices for an item, deception often working in their favor.

[ramram]

After seeing this thread a few days ago, I actually bid on a Helmar card (I was runner up). I think they are unique artwork and very well done. I have a problem with the reproduction/fake vintage cards that are produced without any markings but in this case, if anybody in their right mind Googles "Helmar" before they buy, I think they'll figure it out. If not, and they end up getting a Helmar card, they might be suprised of it's value in the future...IMO.

Rob M.

[steve B]

The newer ones do have dates. I posted a link to one earlier.

Steve B

Originally Posted by Runscott

Yes, in the Pre WWII category without a date on the cards. Why no dates? Certainly it makes more sense for you to put these in Pre WWII, since they look very old and feature players who played back then, but there needs to be some indication on the card that they are not actually from that period.

And, just because ebay allows something, doesn't mean it's not deceptive - in fact, ebay is all for anything that will get higher prices for an item, deception often working in their favor.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by steve B

The newer ones do have dates. I posted a link to one earlier.

Steve B

Okay, thanks. You've got much better vision than me.

[caramelcard]

This new stuff should be placed in the right category so those that are searching for old cards don't have to look at it.

Anyone try typing in Zeenut lately on ebay? Gimme a break.