just another auction (verkman)

[sflayank]

well a new low has been reached
noone else bid on the lot
i was only bidder all day and like all auctions except this one apparently u must bid by 10...so i bid in the afternoon,,,when i went to bed at 1230 i checked and i was still the hi and only bidder at the minimum
yet somehow i was outbid when i awoke this morning..the email was timed at 140 am
so how can this be? well in a steve verkman auction anything is possible...if he doesnt want to sell an item he claims that under his rules a person may bid forever if they bid on more then 10 items and yet he claims this rule is in there so you dont have to stay up late and get sniped
so i am to believe that a fictitious person who had previously bid on more then 10 items,(but not this one) decided at 140 am that this was something he wanted also
or could it be that steve who wanted 800 for the item at the national from me
just didnt want to sell it for 500
i think maybe verkman needs to open his auction books andprove to the world the winner bid on ten or more tmes before 10 oclock and then jumped in at the last minute on this item
i always say u should never bid in an auction that doesnt end each lot individually,,,because its too easy for the auction house to rig the auction
STEVE you dont want me to be sniped? change your rules with the rest of society
dont tell us the rule of 10 is in there to protect against late night snipes
its in there to protect you from selling for what you think is too cheap

[thekingofclout]

Wow! You're the same guy that always bashes Henry Yee. You are some piece of work... incredible.

[Leon]

Well a few things on this one. First of all the original poster is larry serota. Full names must be put out here when making those kind of statements. So that is done.

Now, I won't address Steve's auction. He can do that if he wants to. I will address some of the other statements above though. My auction company, Brockelman and Luckey Auctions, also ends auctions in a different manner. WE go into an extended bidding and everyone, yes every registered bidder, can still bid. We also have what might be the only written policy allowing people (3rd party, not our bidders) to audit our books. WE are 100% transparent in the auction process. I don't think you can make general statements about ALL auction companies and be correct. regards

[GrayGhost]

as a neutral observer, these auction policies are ridiculous, IMO. If someone closes an auction, it should be by LOT. If NO additional bids have been received by TEN, thats it.

IF there has been one or more competing bids, the ten minute rule could go into effect.

Just seems complex. Thats one of the BEST things about ebay. you put in a biid or a snipe, and you are all set. The auction JUST ENDS. But, w so many auctions not using snipe programs, I can understand the ten minute rule, but the above situation sounds a bit fishy, in that the poster checked at 1230 w no bids.

This is NOT an attack on MR Verkman either. Im just trying to give an objective viewpoint

Scott Roberts

[sports-rings]

Hi Leon,

I am not trying to stir the pot, but maybe I am missing something. What is the reason to have an extended auction if everyone can join in and bid on any item at any time?

On a separate note, I think it's fantastic that you have an open auction and allow people to view "the books". I wish others followed that model. I liked the old days on ebay when it was easy to find what your friends and collector competitors were bidding on.

[sflayank]

We have come up with what we hope is a partial solution to the un-ending auction problem. In order to discourage late bidding/sniping at extreme hours and to encourage bidding when everyone is (hopefully) awake, bids placed after 1:30 AM EST are subject to an additional buyers premium of 5%;
This is cut and paste from verkmans own rules
and they have to have placed bids on at least 10 lots prior to 10 oclock
I am not blasting anyone...if anyone here believes that abidder bid on 10 lots prior to 10pm but not the one i bid on just so they could snipe this lot at 140 am and pay 5% more i would like to sell a bridge in brooklyn to
which begs the question why didnt they bid at 1:29 and save the 5% addon fee?

[Leon]

We work for our consignors, plain and simple. Since implementing this ending strategy we have unequivocal evidence that the ending has made it where many lots get many more bids. We have given it a ton of thought and this is our method. It's best for our consignors and actually our bidders too. I can't tell you how many times I have not bid on something in an auction, then wanted to bid, but couldn't because I hadn't bid yet. It has happened to me (and no doubt almost everyone reading this) many times. As for the extension.....the extended bidding has to do with the time to close. Once we are in that time then any 15 minute increment (based on 4 equal ones every hour) that doesn't get a bid, means the auction closes automatically. We have no control over it, our bidders do. This has been our way of ending auctions for the last 3-4 and so far there have been no issues. Scott and I feel there probably isn't a perfect solution to ending....just like many good debates on this board, all sides have their pros and cons. Hope this helps.

ps...in about 10 minutes I will be out, on business, until after lunch so won't be responding to any other questions until later......

[Exhibitman]

I have no idea of the circumstances of Larry's situation and I definitely appreciate how awful it is to lose a deal at the last minute. That said, it does appear that Verkman's auction rules allow for the kind of late bidding that took place. And if the item was tough and a bargain why is it so hard to believe that someone came in and topped the opener?

As for allegations of shilling by Clean Sweep, I've purchased numerous items in Clean Sweep auctions using max bids without my max bid being hit and haven't suspected any shilling on my wins or losses. Also, remember we have collectors across multiple time zones. A 12:30 a.m. EST bid is only 9:30 for me, 6:30 for the Hawaiian collectors on this board, so a very late bid isn't by any means improbable.

[sflayank]

no problem with late bidding
so anyone can put in minimum bids on the 10 cheapest lots and then bid on anything they want all night(GOOD SYSTEM)
but u dont have to bid before 10 if you bid on 10 lots or more
so this person puts more than 10 lots in his watch and decides to only bid on exactly 10 of them before 10 oclock and he'll leave the rest of them alone until after 130 so he can pay the 5% penalty for being late
and he sits at his computer refreshing the auction for 3 1/2 hrs to make sure it doesnt close before he can bid for the 1st time on those lots
the lot wasnt anything special...verkman offered it to me for 800 at the national...starts it at 500,which was too much, in his auction

[thecatspajamas]

Sounds like a case of sour grapes to me. You laid out exactly how someone could exploit the auction-ending procedure, and yet can't believe that someone could possibly have done what you describe?

A 5% bump in price is not that bad, when you consider that most bid increments are 10%. Save yourself one back-and-forth with another interested bidder who, like you, assumes that everyone goes to bed at 1:30 EST, and you've more than recouped that.

I agree that ending procedure is a bit more convoluted than necessary, but frankly, you just have to get used to each auction house having their own take on auction ending procedures. If you don't like the way the auction ends, don't bid in the auction, or at the very least write an e-mail to the people running the auction detailing how you think it could be improved. Have you actually tried to contact Steve or anyone else at Clean Sweep about this?

[bobbyw8469]

I won lots from Verkman last night. While I don't like how it ends, it is actually one of the preferred places I like the bid at.....

[chaddurbin]

if you're the only bidder...shouldn't you have won it outright before the extended bidding? i thought that was standard with all auction houses...

[Lordstan]

I'm not a big auction house bidder, but from all the threads that I have read, I have to say, that outside of shill bidding accusations, it seems most of the complaints come from those who lost items. I don't remember seeing a lot of posts from those who won items, but feel they paid more because of a shill.

To me the answer is simple. If you don't like the rules of an auction don't bid. If no one bids, no one will consign to that house and the other auction houses whose rules are more acceptable to the whole will be successfull.
It appears that the addiction we all share trumps all. On one thread, you hear complaints then it seems the same person later on will post what they won in a subsequent auction from the same house. (Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying everyone does this, but it sure does seem that a whole lot of the group complain about auctions and then equal numbers post their winnings.) If they have great items, people will bid regardless of the rules.

Another interesting point I see, is how people bid. I think if everyone bid the most they are willing to pay right away, there would be no need for anger at the rules. It appears that all auction houses have some form of proxy bidding set up. If you're willing to pay $1000 for something then proxy bid $1000. If someone wins for $1100, even if it is a snipe, you can't be too upset, because you weren't willing to pay that for it. If you don't trust the auction house with your proxy bid then you either need to stay up until it closes or, perhaps more appropriately, you shouldn't give them your business.

Just my 2c.
Mark Velarde

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

I'm not a big auction house bidder, but from all the threads that I have read, I have to say, that outside of shill bidding accusations, it seems most of the complaints come from those who lost items. I don't remember seeing a lot of posts from those who won items, but feel they paid more because of a shill.

We used to get complaints about that end of it as well. I can personally say that I've won auctions from almost every major auction house where my max bid was MUCH higher than what I won the item for. So if they were going to screw someone, they all could have gotten me at one time or another.

[drc]

In the way old days you typed in your bid in the Mastro Auctions. I once accidentally added an extra zero to my bid near the end. Ala 15,000 instead of 1,500. Happily there were no additional bids.

[drc]

I should add that shilling doesn't automatically mean raising each lot to the maximum bid. Just as house burglary doesn't automatically mean robbing every house in the neighborhood. That your house was never burgled doesn't prove no house burgled.

That paragraph has nothing to do with the auction house in this thread. I don't follow or bid there, so have zero knowledge on their practices. If they say they don't shill, I'll have no reason to think otherwise.

[perezfan]

Seems just a bit fishy (and unlikely) to me as well...

Now, if the item in question re-appears in a future Clean Sweep Auction, it would be cause for further suspicion/concern. Given the circumstances (and the fact that Verkman wouldn't budge off of the $800 price at the National) it would be great to hear from Steve on this matter as well.

That said, I have always had pleasant dealings with Clean Sweep, both as a bidder and consignor

Mark Steinberg

[drc]

Actually, if you were a professional shiller, it would be dumb to bid each lot up to the maximum. Would be used as strong evidence against you at trial. After all, what are the odds that all maximums would be reach naturally over a long period-- close to if not 0%.

[whiteymet]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

Sounds like a case of sour grapes to me. You laid out exactly how someone could exploit the auction-ending procedure, and yet can't believe that someone could possibly have done what you describe?

A 5% bump in price is not that bad, when you consider that most bid increments are 10%. Save yourself one back-and-forth with another interested bidder who, like you, assumes that everyone goes to bed at 1:30 EST, and you've more than recouped that.

I agree that ending procedure is a bit more convoluted than necessary, but frankly, you just have to get used to each auction house having their own take on auction ending procedures. If you don't like the way the auction ends, don't bid in the auction, or at the very least write an e-mail to the people running the auction detailing how you think it could be improved. Have you actually tried to contact Steve or anyone else at Clean Sweep about this?

Lance:

The 5% bump was NOT a bid increment, the bidder had to pay an EXTRA 5% bidder premium to bid on the lot AFTER 1:30 AM.

[ramram]

I agree that it can be frustrating but, if I'm bidding on several other items and I've got some cash burning a hole in my pocket, and a couple of those bids get topped beyond what I will pay, then I'm looking back through the auction lots to see what's undervalued and of interest to me. Nice to know that you can still bid on them at that point. Also, if I'm the consigner, I like the idea that someone can still bid on it at that point (mute point in this case though since Verkman owns the lot).

Rob M.

[bcbgcbrcb]

I have bid on CSA Auctions from time to time, including last night, and never had any thoughts of foul play.

[sflayank]

no thoughts of foul play
i have nothing against verkman
i couldnt care less that i lost the lot
but why would ANYONE deliberately pay 5% more than they have to
he could have bid at 1:29 instead of 1:40
did this person say to himself i really like steve im gonna give him extra money for this item
whats even more scary is that anyone could find more than 10 lots to bid on in csauctions

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by whiteymet

Lance:

The 5% bump was NOT a bid increment, the bidder had to pay an EXTRA 5% bidder premium to bid on the lot AFTER 1:30 AM.

You're misunderstanding me. My point is that any time you raise the bid, the price is bumped typically by 10% increments. So if I'm watching an item someone else has bid on, I can either duke it out with them earlier in the evening when each punch costs an additional 10% and the chances of having to make multiple bids are higher, or I can wait until late at night when I'm pretty sure the other guy has gone to sleep (since EVERYONE assumes nobody in their right mind would pay the extra 5% juice to bid after 1:30), and throw a single punch for a 15% bump (10% bid increment plus 5% extra juice).

Personally, I've not bid in any of their auctions, so this is all theoretical. But my point is that you can't jump to the conclusion that the auction house is crooked just because a scenario that doesn't fit YOUR bidding strategy played out. Believe me, whatever system of rules are in place, there will be bidders looking to work that system to their advantage any way they can.

Lance

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by sflayank

no thoughts of foul play
i have nothing against verkman
i couldnt care less that i lost the lot

Then I'm confused by the title of your post "just another crooked auction."

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

[glchen]

I think the point Larry is trying to make is that the new bid was at 1:40am and not 1:29am. That is TOO close to 1:29am. If you were going to do the strategy that Lance is suggesting, you would put your bid at 2:25am (just before the 10% extra bidder premium takes effect), and not 1:40am, which is only 10 minutes after the first bump. There's a too good chance bidders might still be around and check another 10 minutes after the bump, which is why this looks suspicious. Of course, Lance could be suggesting that some bidders could prefer 15% bid increments to 10%, which I guess is possible.

BTW, I have won from Clean Sweep before, and I am not making any judgment here on whether they shill or not. I have no idea, and they had a couple of lots last night that I was very interested in bidding on if only I had the funds.

[gnaz01]

I placed a bid at around 5PM and was surprised I won my lot when I woke up this morning. I even placed a 2 bid higher MAX, but I got it for what I put my initial bid in and no one bid it up

Very pleased!!

[thecatspajamas]

All I'm really suggesting is that for every way that an auction house chooses to end an auction, there are 100 different strategies bidders may employ to win the items of their choice at the best possible price. I'm NOT suggesting that they all make sense.

Heck, for all I know the winning bidder works second shift, got home at 1:35, logged on and was surprised to see the auction still going and threw down a couple of late night bids. It happens (been there myself, just not with Clean Sweep).

My bigger point though is that, if you're going to call an individual and his auction house crooked and a liar and accuse him of shilling and rigging his auctions (all in the initial post), you need to have something better to back up your accusations than "somehow i was outbid when i awoke this morning." Complaining about losing out on an auction item is one thing. Making libelous statements about the auctioneer and his company is another.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by glchen

I think the point Larry is trying to make is that the new bid was at 1:40am and not 1:29am. That is TOO close to 1:29am. If you were going to do the strategy that Lance is suggesting, you would put your bid at 2:25am (just before the 10% extra bidder premium takes effect), and not 1:40am, which is only 10 minutes after the first bump.

I used to do my bidding while drinking a bottle of wine. By the time 1:30 rolled around, I couldn't think straight - no telling what I would do. One night late in a Lipset auction I realized that every auction I wanted was too high. I had $3,000 and insisted on spending it - ended up buying a bunch of stuff I didn't need, and didn't even start bidding until the deadline.

[sycks22]

I won some items last night and the only minor beef is instead of the 2 weeks until payoff they need it in 7 and they will hold a check for a full 2 weeks before sending the items. Goodwin / legendary shipped my items the same day the check was received. There were some deals to be had.

[HexsHeroes]

.


. . . I, too, would like to see the rule universally applied that a bidder has to have placed an initial bid before a set time, inorder to have the right to bid thereafter.

Also universally applied, if only one bid has been placed on a lot by the set time, that lot is now closed. Period.

Regarding Clean Sweep auctions, I enjoy bidding in them. But I have noticed a item or two keep reappearring. Perhaps the successful bidder reneged. Perhaps the consignor was the highest bidder. Which brings me to my next point. Is it possible that the additional bid after you signed out was due to a seller's reserve price? I don't think I've seen it mentioned in lot descriptions for Clean Sweep that a reserve is in play. I may be wrong, but I don't recall seeing mention of a reserve on the lots I considered bidding upon over the past few year. Based on this thought, my guess is the late activity might be an unknown reserve in play.

[perezfan]

Agree with everything Vincent stated above.... great post!

[sox1903wschamp]

Originally Posted by HexsHeroes

Which brings me to my next point. Is it possible that the additional bid after you signed out was due to a seller's reserve price? I don't think I've seen it mentioned in lot descriptions for Clean Sweep that a reserve is in play. I may be wrong, but I don't recall seeing mention of a reserve on the lots I considered bidding upon over the past few year. Based on this thought, my guess is the late activity might be an unknown reserve in play.

He has pretty high starting bids (more then the industry standard) which I think are the reserves. I do not believe he has "hidden" reserves based on bidding with them for 20 years. That has been my experience.

[sflayank]

spoke to steve this morning and my title stating crooked i will retract
however i will tell you what he told me and you can draw your own conclusions
the person who bid on the lot did bid on 10 lots prior to 10 pm entitling him to bid on anything he wanted
this was the only item he bid on using this rule
this was the only item ANYONE bid on using this rule
this was the last bid placed in the entire auction
and the person who used this rule forgot the rule of paying a 5% penalty after 1:30 or didnt care
these are direct from Steve himself...i told him that telling me this made it look even worse and he said he knows but its the truth
So I will take him at his word and put this dicussion to rest

[barrysloate]

In every auction I ever ran, there was always one lot that was the last to get a bid. His explanation sounds good to me. The fact that a bidder may not have executed his bids in the most intelligent or efficient manner possible is no big deal. It's late at night, it happens.

[ajg]

My guess is you will see it in another one of his auctions,on his table for sale ,or in his back section where he sells items outright.

[thecatspajamas]

redundant deleted

[Leon]

In keeping with board policy ajg is- ala.n gould

If anyone doesn't want their full name on the board then they shouldn't say things that will make it necessary. That being said I will usually cover a letter, or add a period etc.., to protect from Google searches, while still letting everyone know the name. Same policy for everyone. Always email me, PM me or post any questions pertaining to this.

[peterb69]

I'm sorry, but could somebody explain snipe bidding & shill bidding to me?

Thanks

[Leon]

I merged the 2 separate threads and, since Larry retracted his initial thought, I took out one word in the title of the thread to be fair to the auction house.

Sniping is bidding at the very end of an auction. On ebay it is usually done with a 3rd party software. Shilling is bidding with no intention of winning the card, usually to make the price inflated.

[Bobsbats]

If you don't like the way Steve runs an auction.....don't bid anymore ! We have all lost lots in auctions and it stinks, but if you wanted to win the lot, BID more.....It's that simple.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by peterb69

I'm sorry, but could somebody explain snipe bidding & shill bidding to me?

Thanks

Snipe bidding is typical on ebay where there's a set ending time. Bid as close to the end as possible to prevent someone else from bidding against your bid.
It sometimes works to keep the price paid minimal, and more often just helps win. The drawback of course is that if you really want an item and your bid isn't big enough you have no time to bid higher.(Unless like I've done you place one reasonable bid at say 7 seconds and another less sane bid at 2 seconds. I've done that manually, but only a couple times)
The rules allow this, and it's legal.

Shill bidding is where a bidder, either from the auction house or sometimes a friend of a seller or the seller themselves using a different ID bid on an item with no intent to win but merely to drive the price up. It's not legal in most places. if an auctioneer knows someone is doing it, they should bar the person from that auction at the least. It's easily confused with proxy bidding up to the level of a hidden reserve.
Good auctions will usually expose the reserve after the auction if it's not met. I've seen a live auction expose the reserve and reopen the bidding if the reserve was very close to the high bid.
(Car bid to 7250, reserve announced as 7500- bidding reopened when a bidder yelled "yes 7500" - sold for 8250 or something like that)

Steve B