1921-23 E220 National Caramel Dating Re-evaluation

[brianp-beme]

Thanks Matt...that is a nice card and believe it or not, fairly high grade for this issue. Here is the update:

Unverified Type 1 backs:

Ty Cobb
Carl Mays
Babe Ruth
Earl Smith
Milton Stock (batting)


Brian

[t213]

Can we verify that all cards come with a type 2 and/or type 2 reverse back? For purposes of the census, I have about 40 different type 1s, and these type 2s:

type 2 regular back
Cunningham
Paskert
Snyder (standing)

type 2 reverse back
Graney

Andy

[brianp-beme]

Hi Andy...I was kinda getting the type 1 backs out of the way first and then was going to tackle the more juicy type 2 and reversed backs. As I earlier theorized, and unless proven otherwise, I believe that the type 2 and reversed are not found for the same player, making me surmise that they were both printed on the same sheet. And it will be interesting to get an idea to what extent these were printed...just half the set? more, less? They are definitely less frequently seen.

Brian

[rhettyeakley]

Glad to see this thread getting some activity. Unfortunately, I have sold most of the E220 partial set that I once had and didn't bother writing down the front/back combos or I would be helping out more. I think what we are finding is leading to the idea that this was a 1922 issue, and not a multi-year production as previously thought to be.
-Rhett

[eb548]

Im a little confused. I own this Ruth and was wondering what type this is? I am guessing this is also a REVERSE BACK?? Thanks Guys!

[brianp-beme]

Eb548 your Ruth would be considered a type 2 reversed...the 'b' of 'Ball' in the second line is directly below the 'i' of 'pictures' in the first line, instead of lining up underneath the 'p' in 'pictures' (this would be the type 1 back). It is considered reversed in that the other two backs have their printed lines start in the top right corner and work downward, while yours is reversed, the lines starting from the bottom left and working upward. I would love to own your card...it would fit right into my collection, like horsehide in the webbing!

Brian

[Mark]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Thanks Matt...that is a nice card and believe it or not, fairly high grade for this issue. Here is the update:

Unverified Type 1 backs:

Ty Cobb
Carl Mays
Babe Ruth
Earl Smith
Milton Stock (batting)

Brian

I've got a Type 1 Cobb.

[brianp-beme]

Thanks Mark...consider Cobb kicked off the unverified type 1 team (definitely a type 1 personality, however).

Unverified Type 1 backs:

Carl Mays
Babe Ruth
Earl Smith
Milton Stock (batting)


I swear I will get to the type 2 backs...just might be a long stretch before I find the time (I wish it would stop hiding from me).

Brian

[brianp-beme]

Finally a chance to rekindle the E220 National Caramel back topic.

Starting off, I have not heard from anyone else in regards to the final four unverified Type 1 backs. The list of unconfirmed subjects remains at:

Carl Mays
Babe Ruth
Earl Smith
Milton Stock (batting)

Would still love to hear from collectors if they have any of these cards with the type 1 back (for reference Jim's earlier post clearly details with photographs the three types of backs found). I would venture to state that it appears the complete E220 set can be found with the Type 1 back.

Now onto some percentages. I tallied up the E220 card pool available to me, and I currently have catalogued 325 cards total. Of these 325 cards, 257 have the Type 1 back. 19 cards have the Type 2 back, and 51 cards have the Type 2 reversed back. So the current approximate percentages are:

Type 1 back: 79.1%
Type 2 back: 5.8%
Type 2 reversed back: 15.7%

Clearly the type 1 back dominates the card population--currently it appears on four of every five cards seen. The Type 2 appears to be the rarest, with the type 2 reversed being seen three times as often as the regular Type 2.

A point worth repeating is that I have yet to see an individual player's card with all three backs, nor have I seen a particular card with both versions of type 2 backs. This leads me to believe that the entire set was printed with the type 1 backs, and that perhaps both type 2 backs were printed on one separate sheet as well.

Now I would like to tally the specific cards that have been seen with each Type 2 back. I have listed below the ones that have been documented so far with each back, and would like to enlist the assistance of fellow collectors regarding any that they might have in their collections. So here goes:


'Regular' Type 2 backs verified (13 currently):

Wilbur Cooper
Wm. Cunningham
Hank Gowdy
Charles Grimm
Sam Harris
Chas. Hollocher
Walter Johnson
Pete Kildulf (leaping)
Geo. Paskert
V.J. Picinich
Raymond Schmandt
Frank Snyder (standing)
George Whitted (batting)


Reversed Type 2 backs verified (25 currently):

James Austin
George Burns (Cleveland)
John Collins
Jimmy Dykes (fielding)
Arthur Fletcher
Frank Frisch
Larry Gardner
J.C. Graney
Heinie Groh
Harry Hooper
Rogers Hornsby
Carl Mays
Lee Meadows
Emil Meusel
Bernie Neis
Eddie Rousch
Babe Ruth
George Sisler
Earl Smith
John Smith
Sherrod Smith
Frank Snyder (crouching)
Zach Wheat
Fred C. Williams
"Pep" Young


Always fun to do a little research, and any help on it would be appreciated too!

Brian

[ethicsprof]

just saw this thread and it's fascinating!!!
many thanks for the efforts.

i have the E220 Type 2 reversed W. Jacobson

all the best,
barry

[Mark]

Brian,
Thanks for continuing to act as a pioneer, scientist, archeologist on this.
I have a small stack of these in another location, but here goes. A couple are dupes, but I will just list them all to help with the population report.

Type 2 regular back

Turner Barber
George Paskert
Roger Peckinpaugh
Jimmy Ring
James Vaughn

Type 2 reverse back
Babe Adams
Max Carey
John Collins
Jake Daubert
Arthur Fletcher
Rogers Hornsby
Robert Nehf
Darrill Pratt
Eddie Rousch
Casey Stengel
Milton Stock
Aaron Ward

[frohme]

Great thread, Brian!

I have (or had) only 4 - the Snyder may be a contradiction.

Type 2 - reversed
Babe Adams
Aaron Ward

Type 2 Regular
Whitted (batting)
Snyder (catching).