OT:A-Rod Tested Positive for two Anabolic Steroids in 2003

[Archive]

Posted By: davidcycleback

I find it telling how all these so-called big he-man manly men can't admit to using steroids even when evidence is more than substantial. That's not being men, that's being children.

It says that being a man has nothing to do with your physical stature and home run totals. There are many 70 pound seven year old boys who are twice times the men than these bozos. Why? Because the seven year olds will tell the truth, not because the punishment will be easy or because they just got caught, but because it's the right thing to do.

There are four year olds in pre-schoool more willing to stand up and take responsibility for their actions that Pete Rose and Mark McGwire.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim VB

"His 3 year use seems somewhat plausible since he averaged 50 HR's those 3 years and 40 the other 20 years."


Alan U,

He's only 33 years old, so 23 years in the majors would be quite a feat!


Most people would attribute the increase in HR's to the Ballpark in Arlington. There's a wind tunnel effect that makes hitters love it (and pitchers hate it.)

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve

For all the steroids those Rangers took where did it get them?

Last place.

Steve

[Archive]

Posted By: David Smith

Dan,

How can the Players Union NOT be blamed for all of this mess?

MLB had rules on the books against steroids and PED's as far back as 1993 but it was the PLAYERS UNION that didn't agree to testing and penalties.

It was Gene Orza of the PLAYERS UNION that tipped guys off about when they were going to be tested.

If the PLAYES UNION had done the right thing to begin with then ALL of this mess wouldn't have happened.

Fans wouldn't have to look back on the last 15 years and wonder whether ALL of the players during that time were cheating and whether ALL of the records set during that time aren't tainted.

Fans like me wouldn't be angry with a guy who had a very lucrative contract and THEN got out of it and was able to sign an even MORE lucrative contract and do it because he wasn't a known steroid abuser.

David

[Archive]

Posted By: davidcycleback

Duly note that the union IS the players. All agreements must be okayed by the players and player representatives (who are also players). If drug testing was prohibited, that's because the players prevented themselves from being tested. If there were no penalties for PED use, that's because the players prevented such penalties.

If players were taking steroids when it wasn't tested for, that's because the players prevented steroids testing then took steroids.

The idea that the players were slaves to the union negotiated rules is incorrect. As players they were responsible for them.

When a player says "I used steroids but before MLB 'banned' them." My first question is did that player vote for or against drug testing and penalties when he was using the steroids. More likely than not, he actively voted against any rules that would have tested and punished steroids users. It's not unlike a Wall Street banker creating a rule that allows him to cheat with depositor's money, then, when the **** hits the fan, saying you can't blame him because he was just following rules.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bobby I.

Now that Roid-Rod has admitted it is he looking to renegotiate his contract to 35 mil a year? Surprised his "Pal" Boras hasn't dropped that bomb yet.

[Archive]

Posted By: J Levine

Different question...was there something in Arod's contract like a moral's clause...can Texas go after him for monetary compensation? Can the Yankees seek damages on a fraudulent trade? They were not going to get what was expected...a clean superstar? Etc.

Joshua

[Archive]

Posted By: sagard

The Yanks would NEVER even consider going after Texas about A-Rod. He is still their best player in an off year and they don't want to lose him.

[Archive]

Posted By: Stephen Mitchell

My suspicions are the A-Rod was probably on steroids before he left Seattle. Either that or his performance (given a less friendly Seattle ballpark - especially in 2000) was not enhanced all that much by drugs.

His last year with the Mariners compared with his three at Texas:

AB BB Runs Hits 2B-3B-HR RBI B.A. S.A.
554100 134 175 34-2-41 132 .316 .606 at SEATTLE (2000)
632 75 133 201 34-1-52 135 .318 .622 at Texas (2001)
624 87 125 187 27-2-57 142 .300 .623 at Texas (2002)
607 87 124 181 30-6-47 118 .298 .600 at Texas (2003)
601 59 141 215 54-1-36 123 .358 .631 at SEATTLE (1996)

For additional comparison, his best year with Seattle (1996, in the Kingdome) is provided.

Purely anecdotal: I recall a very early A-Rod home run - perhaps it was his first. Although his swing seemed effortless, the ball just jumped off his bat ending up over the center field wall. It was an amazing sight to behold and Alex was just an 19/20-year-old kid.

Enough is enough, however, and it is time Major League Baseball cleaned up its act. Clearly a Judge Landis-type (as mentioned in earlier post) is needed to restore confidence in the integrity of the game and its records. For my money, the records and record-makers for the era 1984 or so through 2008 are suspect.

Cheaters hurt themselves, their competitors, the fans and the game. They ought not be rewarded for their actions.

[Archive]

Posted By: marty q

steve mitchell- in seattle really, what about the n.y. years so far, 2 mvp's by the way, and he has tested and has been clean, explain that, not removing guilt, he took them, but you are like a bunch of others, trying to "guess" and make it bigger, isn't it bad enough that he did them for 3 years without guys like you trying to date them back to 7th grade. give ma a break, throw up his n.y. numbers steve....his clean years btw. so far at least.

"the records and record-makers for the era 1984 or so through 2008 are suspect"- wow, 24 years, and who in 1984,85,86 were on roids?? i think they started in the 90's, maybe 93-94, with dykstra...and stopped in 2005 when the heat came. i explained my window explain yours.

[Archive]

Posted By: Stephen Mitchell

marty q:

The "1984 or so" was based on my suspicions that Jose Canseco (whom I thought was the originator of steriods in MLB) would have been using at least a year or two before making it to the majors. Canseco debuted in 1985.

It turns out that steroids use (from my limited research this evening) goes back much earlier. From the website TheSteroidsEra (http://thesteroidera.blogspot.com/2006/08/baseballs-steroid-era-timeline.html), I learned that former major league pitcher and pitching instructor TOM HOUSE admits to what appears to be the earliest use of steroids - although, as you will see, he was not alone:

Tom House May 2005
Admitted Using: Steroids (Non-specific)
What he said: In a telephone interview with San Fransisco Chronicle reporter, Ron Kroichick, House admitted to using steroids for a couple of seasons during his career (1971-1978). House estimated that six or seven pitchers on every staff in baseball were experimenting with steroids in the 1970s. This was, and still is, the earliest account of steroid use in baseball. Houses admission and comments are from a May 3, 2005 San Fransisco Chronicle article entitled House a 'failed experiment' with steroids.

[Archive]

Posted By: Fred C

I like Schillings idea - expose ALL of the players that failed the drug tests and just get it over with. His idea wasn't as much to expose the users but to clear the clean players (or at least those that didn't get caught). I wonder if this is going to be a union thing where the players union fights it. Heck, if I were a player that played by the rules I'd say take it to an anonymous vote of the players and let them decide.

What if A-rod is a user? Does that mean that all the writers should exclude him from the HOF? What about Bonds? Does he deserve to be kept out of the HOF? Bonds was already on his way to 500HRs and immortality when he started juicing. What a mess, some of the biggest names in BB are tied to this era of error. I don't think you can keep everyone out of the HOF.

[Archive]

Posted By: davidcycleback

It's not possible to know who didn't use PEDs. Even if the 104 names are named, no one's naive enough to think they were the only users. It's not possible to know that Schilling never used PEDs, in part as he played for years under a system that didn't test. Sadly, fans have learned that those who express their innocence the loudest sometimes turn out to have been users (Palmeiro, McGwire, ARod, Bonds, for examples).

The double edge sword of no testing is that it helps prevent the guilty from being proven guilty, but makes it impossible to prove the innocent are innocent. This may seem unfair to the innocent, but it's the system the players (including the innocent) and their union chose.

The irony is the union chose a testing system with the intent of make everyone appear innocent, but in the end it may make everyone appear guilty.

[Archive]

Posted By: LenK

oh no not another one....i was actually pulling for Ster-Rod to climb high on the all-time stats lists....glad i'm not a kid in this tainted era....with all of these big-time millionaire cheaters....what a disgrace.....adios hall of fame

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan

Who really cares? The reality of what is baseball, is that, for a long long long time baseball players have used drugs of one type or another.

Why are steroids any different than barbiturates, speed, cocaine, uppers, downers, etc???? They are not. All are harmful to the body in their own way. One could argue that out of all the bad drugs that "our hero's" have taken over the years, steroids would be the least lethal and the least problematic for the overall health of the player. Has anyone seen the benefits of HGH? Amazing.

Another item to think of: Baseball, just like all other sports, is an entertainment business. Do any of you care that Sly Stallone used steroids for his role in Rambo? Do any of you care about all the other steroid, drug addict, alcoholic, speed, cocaine using freaks of Hollywood and the Music Industry? NO.

What about the ROID FREAKS of The National Felon League (NFL), NBA, NHL, etc? A history slammed full of steroids and other illegal drugs. Can anyone actually argue in the defense of NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, etc that some of the greatest teams of all times were not loaded to the hilt with drugs of all kinds? NO. Stories of bowls of uppers in the locker rooms for the players to "sample" before games. Ironically, if it is by way of a doctor, it is NOT ILLEGAL.

One other really interesting item is that there sure are a lot of Yankee players turning up with Steroid issues... might be the team, not just the players. No, I am not a Yankee hater.

In the end, who really cares about what these guys have to do to play and stay competitive as long as it is entertaining? I am sure the purists in this crowd are going to freak about what I just wrote, but you need to wake up and realize that A LOT MORE PLAYERS than you think, even some of your "Hero's", were drug heads of one flavor or another.

[Archive]

Posted By: J Levine

Dan,
I care. I really really care. Why? Because I now have personal knowledge of how athletes taking steroids affect people. I hate PEDs...any of them. HGH, steroids, speed, anything! Why? Because 12 years ago I had a third grader in my class. He started using HGH that he bought illegally about 4 years ago, when he was 16, in order to make himself bigger and stronger for his local high school and college football teams. He used steadily until recently and the effects were impressive. That is right up until this year wehn he was put on the transplant list for a new liver. His doctors believe that the HGH was one of the causes for his liver beginning to fail.

You say that it is okay as long as it is entertaining. I disagree. Youth are often under a lot of pressure and when they see their "heroes" using drugs, they feel justified in doing the same.

You have no idea how many times I have heard students say something along the lines of "Snoop smokes pot...and look how succesful he is!" This is false logic of the most dangerous kind. Snoop is indeed successful. It is in spite of his drug use. They do not see how many people try to make it in the music business and fail. Kids do not make this intellectual leap very often. Heck, many adults don't either. I often wonder how much more successful some people could be if not for certain drugs.

It pains me that AROD did this but I am actually a little glad he came out and said it was a mistake. If you watch the interview, you will notice that he stopped because of a neck injury and that he feels PEDs were the cause.

Also by saying it was the culture of the time just sounds so ridiculous to me. That does not excuse or make it right. We all remember people saying to us in high school...just one beer, everyone is drinking, it won't hurt you...we also remember the first time we read or saw or knew someone who died or was killed by a drunk driver. Just because it was the "culture" does not mean it is safe, okay, or fine to do (see slavery, sweat shops, Jim Crow laws, segregation, Internment camps, concentration camps, Inquisition, etc...history is filled with stuff that was accepted at the time because the culture accepted it and thought it was just fine---drugs and the drug trade has become epidemic). X was a designer drug that for years was legal to use because there were no laws against it. The law had to catch up. Same with PEDs here. The law is finally catching up.

This is just my opinion but I think I have a valid point.

Joshua

[Archive]

Posted By: howard

I agree with Joshua as to why we should care. I would add that I care because of all the clean athletes who never made it to the majors because they were blocked by ped users. For everyone that made it to the majors by using drugs there is a clean guy out there somewhere who lost out on his chance.

Howard

[Archive]

Posted By: davidcycleback

"It's all relative. The best players of the generation should go to the Hall."

The problem is you can't know who were the best players in a generation where some were using PEDs and others weren't. What you can know is that those known to be using PEDs had an unfair advantage and bloated numbers relative to those who didn't.

[Archive]

Posted By: Patrick McHugh

For those that think anabolics entered baseball recently just keep beliving. Anabolics have been a part of the sports culture for 50 years. This is not to say that they were prevolent early on but have gained year by year in usage. This is business just like your job. Most will try to find an edge to get ahead. With the amount of money involved in sports today usage is a way of life. The tests are very easy to beat. Amp up jan-march cleanse rinse repeat. There are anabolics that can not be detected by the testing that is done today. The atheletes that are caught are given bad advice. To those that think I am wrong just do the research.

[Archive]

Posted By: J Levine

Patrick,
I do not dispute the use of steroids for athletes for many many years...that still does not excuse the use. And just to be clear, the dangers of anabolics have been known for just as long.

To get ahead in my job, I would not do something illegal or harmful. As to these athletes getting bad advice, I do not buy it. With a few very very rare exceptions, these athletes are all adults, all capable of making choices themselves, and I have little sympathy for the excuse that they were told it "would help, be legal, and not show up on a test."

The exceptions are the kids who start...like I said, the kid in my class started using because of peer pressure. He bought his drugs from another teammate who bought them from an adult...both were told that the best athletes use them and are fine and making millions...college scholarships, pro-dreams, and getting girls were among the selling points for these students.

Stop making excuses....

Joshua

[Archive]

Posted By: marty q

stephen m- i agree on canseco, a real bum btw, but i do think the early 90's was when the mess started, no doubt that there were some who started maybe in the 70"s, but mainstream i think the 90"s, just my opinon, i didnt mean to jump on ya, after i re-read it came off that way, my appologies, and after what joshua wrote it makes me even more sick.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

"It pains me that AROD did this but I am actually a little glad he came out and said it was a mistake. If you watch the interview, you will notice that he stopped because of a neck injury and that he feels PEDs were the cause."

I don't believe a word from ARod. He claimed he had no idea what he was taking, claimed he got it in the drug store, and claimed that the SI reporter tried to gain access to his home. All obvious lies. Had he actually come clean I'd have some respect for him but he just seems incapable of telling the truth. I'd sooner trust Canseco.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter ullman

Jeff...agreed. Arod couldn't care less except for that he got caught. His body language during the interview is very telling. His apologies were in no way sincere...he was obviously doing this because he "had" to...but he still feels as if he did nothing wrong.

[Archive]

Posted By: Patrick McHugh

J. Levine
1.I agree anabolic use is bad and very dangerous.
2. Bad advice meaning the player was not told how to beat testing or given anabolics that are tested for.
3. Most would not break the law to get ahead in there job just mean that in big money sports it is looked at as getting a parking ticket until caught.
4.This is very bad for baseball . I to am a big fan and do not like this news.

5. Anabolic use is very bad for anyone but with children it is really bad.
6. I make no excuse for this behavior only pointing out the facts.

[Archive]

Posted By: J Levine

Thanks Patrick...I did not think you would do anything illegal or dangerous to get ahead in work and it was nothing personal...just responding to what you wrote specifically.


Arod may not have been sincere but at least he acknowledges wrong doing...I think that is a step in the right direction. Whether sincere or not, I am heartend by the fact that he at least admitted it. That is half the battle in my opinion.

Joshua

[Archive]

Posted By: Peter Thomas

I don't believe Arod on this at all. How do you know he is lying? - His lips are moving.

[Archive]

Posted By: JDRUM

And while we are speaking of the interview, Peter Gammons should be reinducted to the HOF as a slow pitch softball pitcher.

[Archive]

Posted By: J Levine

And let us take this a step further...I once remember an interview with an ex-manager asking which then-current players he might have as a coach or manager. He mentioned a few (one is a very successful manager currently and a few coaches) including Roger Clemens and Mike Piazza. I thought it funny at the time thinking about the two of them in opposite dugouts but as an owner...would you hire any one of these guys? AROD, Bonds, Clemens, Big Mac, Canseco? They are damaging their future as well. Aside from the dishonesty aspect, we know steroids, esp. anabolic steroids, have long term mental/cognitive consequences...not my first choice for a coach or manager.

Joshua

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

I think A-Rod did about the best he could in his interview today (and I missed the first few minutes). When asked if his records should be expunged from the books, he did hedge. He will now spend the remainder of his career trying to repair his image.

[Archive]

Posted By: Patrick McHugh

Barry and along with it the image of hundreds of other players and baseball as we know it. The sport will survive but i do not know who will be put in the hall of fame in the next 10 years. Any thoughts?

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

I don't think any of the current batch of steroid users will, unless somehow the public sentiment changes. And I don't see that happening. Can A-Rod still salvage his career and get voted in? Maybe, but it will be difficult.

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve F

HOF Nope. I do think he was honest about his dishonesty.

And he was my best hope for bumping off The Clear himself., C'mon Griff!

[Archive]

Posted By: Rob

I think the biggest difficulty would be arguing who gets in as opposed to who does not. Let's say that the whole bunch of them do not get in - A-Rod, Clemens, Bonds, Sosa, Palmeiro, etc.., does that increase the chance of guys getting into the HOF that have never been linked to roids such as Frank Thomas?

[Archive]

Posted By: Patrick McHugh

Oh no Arod caught not telling the truth again. He is done.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Sounds like something new broke today. Can you fill us in?