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  #1  
Old 03-11-2008, 04:15 PM
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Posted By: Dennis Mosley

First of all let me say that I am fairly new to this site, and I am by no means an expert on baseball. It is not my intention to ruffle any feathers here. With that said I was wondering why there are so many players in the Hall that do not belong there. I realize there is other factors other than stats such as success of team, mystique of a particular player etc involved here. I believe this applies to all era's of the game from the very beginning till the present. I believe that the Hall should be for only the elite, and that standard Has Not been maintained through the years. I am a big fan of the T-206 set and much as I hate to admit it there are several Hallers within the set that simply Do Not belong in the Hall. I would be intrested to here other folks opinion on this subject as elected Hallers carry a premium price tag as you know. Thanks. Dennis.

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  #2  
Old 03-11-2008, 04:28 PM
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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Kirby Puckett
Gary Carter
that woman that got inducted a few years ago


And I have some more, that will come to mind. It is just that those 3 are easy choices.

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  #3  
Old 03-11-2008, 04:29 PM
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Posted By: Danny Grimes

I can actually think of a few players and im sure others off the board can too that belong in the hall of fame who are not currently in. Lets say between 1900-19. Im throwing these up in the air Nap Rucker 200 game winner, Gavvy Cravath? Some of the common players in the t206 set have won batting titles or had some kind of big year(s)

my thoughts

Danny


edited, maybe i mis-undersrtood the ??

Kirby Puckett
Ryne Sanberg
Bill Mazeroski

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  #4  
Old 03-11-2008, 04:30 PM
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Posted By: Anthony S.

Jesse Haines.

edit: Obviously, not in the T206 set. Gotta learn not to skim.

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  #5  
Old 03-11-2008, 04:42 PM
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Posted By: Ed Ivey

Cobb-Speaker, but not either one individually.

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  #6  
Old 03-11-2008, 04:43 PM
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Posted By: Chris Mc

Phil Rizzuto comes to mind.

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  #7  
Old 03-11-2008, 04:56 PM
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Posted By: Steve Murray

Elmer Flick.

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  #8  
Old 03-11-2008, 05:10 PM
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Posted By: Misunderestimated

I know we have done this one before... Anyway, in order of "undeservingness" I would go with:

1. Rube Marquard
2. Jack Chesbro
3-4. Bobby Wallace/Joe Tinker
5 Chief Bender
Borderline cases: Roger Bresnahan/Elmer Flick/Vic Willis/Johnny Evers/Jake Beckley

(I may be forgetting someone -- someone forgettable given the question)

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  #9  
Old 03-11-2008, 05:11 PM
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Posted By: Mark

My Top 10... Sorry in advance to anyone that I offend...

1. K. Puckett
2. E. Rixey
3. R. Schoendienst
4. M. Carey
5. C. Hafey
6. F. Lindstrom
7. G. Kell
8. J. Sewell
9. B. Doerr
10. B. Mazeroski

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  #10  
Old 03-11-2008, 05:21 PM
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Posted By: Phil Garry

Ray Schalk

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  #11  
Old 03-11-2008, 05:29 PM
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Posted By: Todd Schultz

why no love for Kirby Puckett? His numbers look pretty impressive to me, plus being the main cog on 2 World Series Championship teams, and with a half dozen gold gloves and silver sluggers. I can see some thinking it was sympathy that led to WHEN he got in, but I don't see how he doesn't belong. Of contemporary inductees, he's better than Tony Perez, for example.

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  #12  
Old 03-11-2008, 05:31 PM
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Posted By: Rob D.

Rabbit Maranville

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  #13  
Old 03-11-2008, 05:51 PM
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Posted By: Addie_Joss

Whoever said Joe Sewell doesn't belong is beyond wrong. One year the guy was up 500 times in 1932 and only struck out 3 times.

These players are on my list:

Tinker
Evers
Dizzy Dean
Dazzy Vance
Ted Lyons
Eppa Rixey
Red Faber
Marquard

Really there are too many to list.

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  #14  
Old 03-11-2008, 06:10 PM
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Posted By: barrysloate

Most of them...at least 60%.

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  #15  
Old 03-11-2008, 06:18 PM
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Posted By: Rob D.

One year the guy was up 500 times in 1932 and only struck out 3 times.

With all due respect ... so what? Last time I checked, the object of the game wasn't too not strike out.

Incredible feat? Sure.

Good way of determining whether a player is worthy of the Hall of Fame? Hardly.

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  #16  
Old 03-11-2008, 06:41 PM
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Posted By: Jay

Tommy McCarthy
Ozzie Smith
Bill Maz
Bid McPhee

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  #17  
Old 03-11-2008, 06:49 PM
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Posted By: barrysloate

Jay- your Bid McPhee cards will plummet if you boot him out!

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  #18  
Old 03-11-2008, 07:12 PM
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Posted By: john/z28jd

Jay you apparently dont like defense! If you start badmouthing Omar Vizquel we are brawling

I wouldnt take anyone out because too many very good players with similar stats from baseballs early days are forgotten because someone chose Tommy McCarthy over Jimmy Ryan. I think the hall of fame needs different levels so a few hundred more players stories are known. Unfortunately Im not willing to fix what is broken because I dont believe on knocking certain players down a peg for what are perceived as mistakes by many.

Not to go against my own thoughts but Im surprised no one said Bruce Sutter. The guy played only 12 seasons,4 were pretty bad and he really wasnt much of a closer his first year so youre talking seven years where he was a good closer,the guy pitched 1042 innings,about 1/5th of what Bert Blyleven pitched. Its a joke to me when people want to kick out guys who played more innings in one year than this guy played in his career. If for some odd reason I was forced to kick someone out Sutter would be 2nd right after Morgan Bulkeley

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  #19  
Old 03-11-2008, 07:48 PM
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Posted By: Chris Counts

I'm clearly in the minority here, but I believe baseball should simply induct every player that meets the standards of the previous inductees, since that is the only tangible criteria that exists. So instead of kicking out Rabbit Maranville, Bill Mazeroski and others (it will never happen anyway), I advocate putting in Minnie Minoso (who was better than Chick Hafey), Alan Trammell (who was better than Dave Bancroft) and about 100 other guys who were as good as Ray Schalk (Wally Schang was better), Jesse Haines (Lon Warnecke was just as good), etc. Yes, a small, very vocal group of fans would go nuts (I'm expecting to get cursed just for suggesting this), but baseball fans in general would applaud the move and ultimately become more interested in baseball history, especially if a few of their hometown heroes made the grade. It's just what baseball could use right now. With its present bogged down by the steroid scandal, why not celebrate what's best about baseball's past?

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  #20  
Old 03-11-2008, 07:49 PM
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Posted By: Anonymous

Todd:

I understand that Perez' numbers aren't overwhelming... just very good.

But outside of maybe Geoge Brett, he was the best clutch hitter I've ever seen (and any player on those Reds' championship teams will state he was the real key to all of those pennants). Sparky Anderson has said the same- often. And look at what happened to the Big Red Machine the year after he was traded... they were done.

Perez never failed to get that key 2-out base hit. He was 15th all-time on the RBI list when he retired. I understand that many or most people here will claim he's undeserving of the HOF because of the "milestone" thing. He fell short of 3,000 hits and 500 HRs, but so did most other HOFers (including all of those listed above).

Unfortunately, I do not know of a good measure for clutch hitting. Though a crucial element to a player's worth, it just doesn't show up in the stats.

Puckett was a great clutch hitter as well.. But I think many have singled him out because of the short career, and the "sympathy factor" that may have helped him get in on the first ballot.

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  #21  
Old 03-11-2008, 07:56 PM
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Posted By: scgaynor

About 30% of them. Alot of these guys got in because they were friends with the right people. A few years ago I asked Yogi Berra (who sat on the committee) who was going to be the next negro league player inducted and he said "Whoever Buck (O'neill) wants".

Scott

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  #22  
Old 03-11-2008, 08:22 PM
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Posted By: Steve

Too bad Buck didn't ask for himself.

Steve

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  #23  
Old 03-11-2008, 08:37 PM
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Posted By: Stephen Mitchell

Since the electors have seen fit to add several NON-players to the Hall of Fame this year, if any members were to be eliminated I would suggest Executives and Owners be the first to go. My opening nomination for expulsion would be Judge Landis who singlehandedly helped postpone the integration of baseball.

Seriously, though, no one will be booted. And, in reality, the Hall of Fame cannot be comprised only of Ruth, Cobb Mantle and other elite. (Parenthetically, it should be noted that it took until the late 1940's or early fifties for the Hall of Fame to field enough players to fill two teams - with a player at each position - to play a mythical game!)

And, with nearly 20,000 outstanding, skilled athletes having performed at the major league level, I would propose that the Hall of Fame be expanded to a more reasonable 350-400 PITCHERS AND PLAYERS together with an appropriate number of executives, owners and umpires.

For me, the Hall of Fame represents Superiority among Excellence. Reaching the majors and sticking for a time represents Excellence; if one further distinguishes himself at that heady level, he has demonstrated Superiority and deserves enshrinement at Cooperstown.

Having said this, I believe a case can be made that every pitcher and player in the National Baseball Hall of Fame deserves to be enshrined and that there are a good many others outside looking in who deserve to be included.

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  #24  
Old 03-11-2008, 09:33 PM
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Posted By: Ken W.

Baseball's Hall is by far and away the most difficult in which to gain enshrinement compared to all the other major sports, from a percentage standpoint. (players inducted/players who have played). I actually believe that the vast majority of HOFers are deserving - probably there are many more unfair omissions. And to whoever above mentioned Dizzy Dean: WTF?

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  #25  
Old 03-11-2008, 09:48 PM
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Posted By: Addie_Joss

I said Dizzy Dean. He doesn't belong. The guy only played 5 full seasons. Sure he went 30-7 in 1934 and won the MVP, but Denny McLain went 31-6 and won the MVP in 1968 and isn't in. In his whole career Dean only won 150 games. Not a Hall of Fame career. A very good brief one, but not a HOF one.

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  #26  
Old 03-11-2008, 11:35 PM
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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

I tend to agree with many of your statements. Here are some of my picks, without looking at a list of every enshrinee:

Mazeroski
Haines
Dean
Doerr (although he would be first in a HOF for "Nice Guys")
Rizzuto
Gossage
Marquard
The 17 Negro Leaguers elected a couple of years ago--STOP IT!


And, on the flip side, what about my favorite non-HOFer Will White? Look at his stats. Yes, I realize how few pitchers were retained by teams in those days, but, come on! Also, not that it matters, but I believe he was also the first bespectacled ballplayer.

Add to this Gil Hodges and Billy Martin. What's with electing Southworth ahead of them? I once saw a Southworth single-signed ball fail to meet its $49.99 reserve on eBay a few years ago. 3X5s and cut signatures weren't even fetching $20 prior to his induction. Despite my always having a soft spot for the Cards, it really burns me up that this man was enshrined before the two aforementioned managers.

And yes, there should be an "Ambassador" category added, its sole member being Buck O'Neil.

Edited to add: We suppose Mr. O'Doul has his place amongst the Ambassadors as well. There are others, but it's too late and we're too tired.



"We are not amused."
--The Victoria Group,
Great Britain's Toughest Monarch(s)

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  #27  
Old 03-12-2008, 12:39 AM
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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

I really should have read everybody's posts before replying. You fellows are correct in your picks. This may be a first--it seems as though I agree with nearly all of you! Tinker and Evers have no place in the Hall, Chance does. Sutter is a joke. I practically feel the same way about Perez, but I also agree with the poster who spoke up for him. If the decision rested solely on my shoulders, Perez would not be in. And whoever said Bulkeley wins the contest for best pick to be booted out of Cooperstown! Kuhn should pack his bags next.

I'd rather see Rose and Shoeless Joe in the HOF than McGwire and Bonds. I guess that's a different story, and entirely a matter of personal preference.

I spent several years writing letters encouraging the induction of Vic Willis, and was surprised when they actually voted him in.

And, if they're gonna continue enshrining "nice guys" with slightly above-average careers (such as Doerr and Rizzuto), why not throw class act Mel Harder into the equation? I am assuming it's because he played in Cleveland! He would have been in by now if his career were New York-centric (the worst non-phrase ever coined, by the way).

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  #28  
Old 03-12-2008, 07:03 AM
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Posted By: J. McMurry

The fact that Billy Martin is not in is a joke.

Buck O'neil not in, is a joke.

The fact that the PC crowd got in Effa Manley, whose ties to organized gambling was greater than Rose could have ever hoped to have been, is a joke.

They need to reorganize voting based on periods, dead ball, prewar, post war, juiced ball/player period(where no one gets in)

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  #29  
Old 03-12-2008, 07:30 AM
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Posted By: Jason L

how Kirby gets such short shrift on among those on this Board and elsewhere.
is it the short career, some psychological chip on the shoulder regarding potential for sympathy voting, or both?

I say Kirby certainly belongs.

Some who are questionable (keeping in mind that older era player identifications are merely stat driven and I have no real context):
Evers
Tinker
Mazeroski
Sutter, Gossage, Fingers (relievers have no place, sorry. I agree with a post above, -They just hardly ever play)

who might belong:
Reulbach
Cravath
O'Doul


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  #30  
Old 03-12-2008, 08:00 AM
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Posted By: MVSNYC

we have this same conversation about every 4 months on average...

the HOF should be the BEST OF THE BEST...

i think Barry is pretty close (he said 60% of who is in, shouldn't be)...

maybe it's 40-50%...whatever, point is that there are WAY too many people in there that are NOT the best of the best...

it should be a super tight, exclusive club...

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  #31  
Old 03-12-2008, 08:05 AM
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Posted By: Alan

Many of the Sports Halls of Fame induct way too many. The Baseball HOF is no different. I agree with Barry, even 70%.

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  #32  
Old 03-12-2008, 08:10 AM
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Posted By: Fred C

Ruth
Cobb
Matty
Wagner
Johnson

I say take them (and about 50 others) out and create a REAL Hall of Fame that enshrines only the elite players. Give me a break, Bruce Sutter.

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  #33  
Old 03-12-2008, 08:22 AM
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Posted By: Darren

I like the idea of different categories. For example Ruth = HOF Legend, Foxx = HOF All-Star, Snider = HOF.

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  #34  
Old 03-12-2008, 08:27 AM
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Posted By: Jason L

Do you suppose this topic keeps coming up because collectors who focus on HOFers are sick of having to buy cards that they really don't want, because the players actually suck compared to the top tier that they actually WANT to buy?
I know that is the case with me!!!
I never wanted to buy Sutter, Fisk, Gossage, Molitor, Mazeroski, or Sutton rookies...but I was FORCED to because of my stupid collection focus.

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  #35  
Old 03-12-2008, 08:47 AM
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Posted By: PC

Let's not forget that hitting stats are not the only factor -- defensive skills count. Also, in the deadball era defense was arguably more valuable than hitting.

There are certainly players in the HOF that are less deserving than others who are in (and some that are not in). But when you evaluate them, you need to think about fielding.

Tinker and Evers are two of the more obvious "defensive" choices for the HOF, and some will argue they're in because of a popular poem, or because the team was good. Perhaps a better example is Roger Bresnahan -- he's often on doesn't belong lists, but he's in because of his defense (and because he was also on a great team with Matty).

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  #36  
Old 03-12-2008, 09:17 AM
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Posted By: Jason L

if he's good enough, for long enough, and he changes how a game is played or managed, enough people eventually place a large premium on a guy's fielding prowess. deservedly so.
Of course, Ozzie was my favorite player, along with Kirby, so I am biased.

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  #37  
Old 03-12-2008, 09:22 AM
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Posted By: Daniel

Cum Posey

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  #38  
Old 03-12-2008, 10:42 AM
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Posted By: Anthony S.

This discussion reminded me of a Bill Simmons article in which he proposed a five tier pyramid style Hall of Fame to accommodate the various levels of ability and achievement of players in the Hall of Fame. It was written a couple of years back, before the slew of steroid revelations, congressional hearings, and Bud Selig reluctantly attending Giants games (during Bonds home run chase) looking as if he'd just eaten 4 bratwursts and been shot with a tranquilizer dart every time Bonds stepped to the plate.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/020108

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  #39  
Old 03-12-2008, 11:04 AM
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Posted By: Jason L

is by the price of the player's rookie card, in relation to other players of the same era.
Crude, I know, but it is far easier on the wallet to pick up a Palmer or Sutton or Hunter rookie than it is a Jackson, Bench, or Carew of similar condition...using the 1960s as an example.

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  #40  
Old 03-12-2008, 11:15 AM
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Posted By: Wil Jordan

After reading the comments regarding this topic I am even more confused about entrance into the Baseball Hall of Fame. What determines and elite player? Is it longevity, setting records, be a nice guy, play for the yankees? It seems to me that their are many more players that belong in the hall and their are those that need to be kicked out.

Regarding Bill Mazeroski. His defnse alone makes him a HOF er. How can they continue to not select Gil Hodges, Maury Wills, and Ron Santo.

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  #41  
Old 03-12-2008, 11:57 AM
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Posted By: Alan

Will -

There are those (like you) that think that more guys should be in. There are even more of those (like me) that think that too many guys are already in. I guess it depends on one's definition of a HOFer. Who the hell knows.

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  #42  
Old 03-12-2008, 12:16 PM
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Posted By: Paul

There are so many, but among the worst in my opinion are:

Tommy McCarthy
Bid McPhee
Roger Bresnahan
Harry Hooper
Rube Marquard
Tinker/Evers/Chance (I got grief once about Evers, but I just don't see why he belongs)
Jesse Haines
Eppa Rixey
Travis Jackson
Phil Rizzuto
Red Schoednienst
Gary Carter

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  #43  
Old 03-12-2008, 12:52 PM
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Posted By: davidcycleback

My opinion is Ozzie Smith was the best fielder (perhaps ever) at a key fielding position, so belongs in the Hall. Comparing his batting numbers to the power numbers of shortstops in the steroids era is not determinant.

People who use the steroids era feats to judge past players are going about it wrong. It's like using the numbers from your video game to revise history.

I also think people who don't take into consideration fielding, especially at shortstop and catcher, are going about it wrong. Judging Ozzie Smith by his batting average or home runs alone shows the ignorance of the judger. At Smith's peak and given the chance, the majority of managers would picked Ozzie Smith as their short stop. Sure, some might have picked Cal Rikpen Jr-- to put at first, because Ozzie Smith is at short stop.

I remember in 1990s, they polled managers who would be the one player they would pick to build a team around. The most picked player was Barry Larkin. Larkin didn't have anything near the hitting numbers of Griffey, Thomas, Belle or Piazza, but the manager's majority opinion was you build a good team around a good young short stop. Their second, third and fourth picks may have been Griffey Piazza and Thomas, but they would have started with Barry Larkin.

I always consider the above almost Zen-like story when people retroactively use batting statistics only to judge players. I believe that the majority of the those managers might say the batting stat hounds might be able to create a good video game, but they haven't the foggiest idea how to assemble a good baseball team. They might pick Frank Thomas over Omar Vizquel as short stop, as Frank hit more home runs.

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  #44  
Old 03-12-2008, 03:13 PM
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Default HOFER'S Who Don't Belong

Posted By: Mike

The most obvious to me is : Phil Rizzuto. How in the heck did he ever get in ? He had 1588 hits, 38 home runs, 563 rbi's and batted just .273. No power, not a .300 hitter and only 1588 hits !!!!! If he made it , why not just about every other SS. His fielding doesn't look good either ( 247 errors in 11 full seasons or an average of 22.45 errors per year. Fielding pct of .968. This is unbelievable. The hall should have levels: Platinum, Gold, Silver, Bronze. It could be on 4 levels of the building. Platinum would be for Ruth, Cobb, Wagner,Johnson etc. Rizzuto with Cobb is again unbelievable.

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Old 03-12-2008, 04:51 PM
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Default HOFER'S Who Don't Belong

Posted By: howard

While I agree that Rizzuto is one of the weakest of the Hall of Famers it has nothing to do with his defense. Rizzuto was considered an outstanding fielder by his contemporaries and rates as a top SS according to most sabermetric measures. The error totals mentioned were not unusual for the time and Rizzuto's fielding average was well above the league average. Marty Marion is generally considered the greatest fielding SS of the time and his FA was only one point higher than Rizzuto's. Crosstown rival Pee Wee Reese's was only .962. Also, Rizzuto turned many more DPs than those guys.

As for the hit total, I suspect that the veterans committee did not hold the three years Rizzuto missed due to WW2 against him. He likely would have surpassed 2,000 hits otherwise.

I think the main reason he is in, however, was the man-crush that Ted Williams had on Phil. Williams, it seemed, never missed in opportunity to say that Phil was the MVP of those great Yankee teams and should be in the Hall.

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Old 03-12-2008, 06:32 PM
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Default HOFER'S Who Don't Belong

Posted By: John Kalafarski

There are 7 non-pitchers who are the gods of baseball: Ruth, Williams, Cobb, Mays, Wagner, Mantle, Dimaggio (I need more research to come up with the gods of pitching, but I suspect that Johnson, Grove, Matty, Grover, Sandy, Pedro would be right up there.). Putting in guys like "No touch" Maz does in no way diminish the very great. By the way, when Diz came along he was the biggest thing in baseball and it was his hard luck to get hurt when he did; longevity is way overrated. If a player is great and gets hurt, he's still great. Tony C was one of those. If you want to get sick over who belongs in the HOF, wait until the steroid guys get in.

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Old 03-12-2008, 06:45 PM
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Default HOFER'S Who Don't Belong

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Ozzie belongs in. Absent the WS play, and him finally getting to .300 for a season, I could see that he'd be borderline. He's not borderline, he should be in.

I'm ok with Rizzuto being in, along with Reese. But if those 2 are in then they should have put 'Slats' in too. And I can see that these 3 are barely in there...

Chance belongs in. Evers does, barely behind Chance. And Tinker, too. Read enough baseball history, and a fella should be able to live with them in.

Dizzy Dean belongs in. Again, read. I'm not talking about merely looking at stats in one of the stats books. READ. He's a clear choice. Ruth and Gehrig both would want him in.

Puckett and Carter and that woman.... no way they get in unless they buy a ticket for admission.

And for the "7" non-pitcher gods, Wagner should be at the front of that list unless it is done alphabetically, and unless Mr. Musial and Rogers Hornsby are added then Mantle and DiMaggio should be dropped off. Probably should add Musial and Hornsby, and then Willie Mays, and that would be 10.


For years I've thought that I won a super Powerball, I'd set up a trust and fund The American Baseball Museum, wherein the Greats of Baseball could be enshrined. There would be about 20% of the HOF in there, and I'd add Van Haltren. Then maybe add Reulbach and Stovey out of contrariness.

Election would be based on managers (now there's an incentive for a player to not buck a manager), broadcasters, fans, and some witchlike committee. Grrrrr....

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Old 03-12-2008, 06:45 PM
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Default HOFER'S Who Don't Belong

Posted By: Dave S

John--how in the world can you mention Pedro in the same breath as those other 4?

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Old 03-12-2008, 06:50 PM
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Default HOFER'S Who Don't Belong

Posted By: Mark

I remain surprised that Hafey and Lindstrom are in the Hall of Fame. The other guys can stay as far as I'm concerned.

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Old 03-12-2008, 07:02 PM
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Default HOFER'S Who Don't Belong

Posted By: John Kalafarski

When healthy, Pedro was the best I've seen. Lower mound, steroid/pro offense era, the gap between his stats and the league's stats was huge, plus I used to watch him from behind the plate at Fenway. Sandy was close, but worked off higher mound, sometimes extra high courtesy of the Dodgers. Plus, dead ball era guys had, well, the dead ball.

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