Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

[Archive]

Posted By: JK

I seriously doubt anyone will consider cobb when voting on bonds for the HOF.

[Archive]

Posted By: davidcycle

People are also assuming Bonds will be eligible for election. If it is proven that he used steroids for years, aided and supplied drugs to other players, lied about it to a Federal grand jury and the Baseball Commissioner, I would think there would be a good chance Bonds would placed on the baseball's ineligible list. Realize that the evidence in 6-7 years likely will be stronger and tighter than now, perhaps coupled with a court conviction. Today, even the majority of Bonds' supporters believe that he likely used steroids, which is a conversion from just a couple of years ago. When even your supporters believe you did it, that's a bad omen for the future.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

David,

Here's a little bit of irony for you, it's possible that the baseball card(s) will save Barry. I'm sure that Bud Selig is worried about what Barry would say on the stand, that's probably part of the reason that he had his hands in his pockets when Barry hit the record-tying homer.

Bud also tried to muzzle Jason Giambi before he spoke with Sen. Mitchell.

The owners and MLB are trying to put some political spin on this whole steroid controversy because they have the most to lose in terms of prestige and money. Steinbrenner and other owners are probably calling the politicians right now to put a lid on this matter.

My guess is that the owners and MLB will be successful, and it will be a decade before we find out the role of MLB and the owners in this whole sordid mess.

Peter C.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason L

What are you talking about in your last post?
It looks like you are trying to address several topics, but I couldn't follow any of them.
What about Barry's baseball cards? how will they save Barry?
What are you insinuating about Selig?

People like to blame Selig for this whole mess, but unless he is actually administering the drugs, I don't understand how he is to blame for other people breaking rules, laws, and participating in unethical behavior.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Now that I read over my last post, I have to admit it was pretty cryptic.

Right now Barry realizes that the Feds are playing hardball. He knows the race card won't work in this situation. However, he has the baseball card, which is he can bring the owners and MLB down with him.

The owners and Bud Selig already realize this and they are busy calling politicians right now. Eventually, people are going to cool down and realize it's better to not blow up the steroid issue at this time.

Some time down the road, maybe Canseco or some other ballplayer will expose Bud Selig and the MLB owners' role in this mess.

Peter C.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Play the race card? What are you talking about?

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason L

THAT baseball "card"....I get the play on words.
I'm nothing if not slow. ...thanks for the clarification.
-because, you know, wouldn't that be amazing if the solution to this whole thing was actually printed on the back of a baseball card, hidden in secret code?

I know this differs with the opinion you and many others have about this whole issue, but I am having trouble seeing what could possibly incrimate the league, the commissioner, or the team offices. We are learning that players took illegal drugs to enhance their performance. The league initiated a drug-testing program (granted, it took longer than people wanted to put it in place). Now, this beahvior is cheating and cheaters get punished according to a set of rules. Where is the wrong-doing on the part of the officials? I still don't fully understand what is being presumed here.

Edited to add:
I would love to believe Barry, but I am beginning to have my doubts, because the 42 gallons of flaxssed oil I have taken since he clarified things have done absolutely nothing for me. In fact, I would go so far as to say that I now have developed a rather noxious odor from it.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

I'm referring to O.J. Simpson and his dream team. There were many attorneys who thought that O.J. and Johnny Cochran were just playing the "race card" by trying to expose the racism of the LA police dept.

Well...Barry knows it won't work here because there isn't sufficient indication of racism.

Peter C.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

So, you think that Barry and his lawyers actually had a conversation in which they opined over the possibility of claiming that his steriod situation with Major League Baseball was similar to the historic racism and targeting of blacks by the LAPD? Peter, you made more sense when you were singing the praises of the Va Tech shooter.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason L

please tell me you made that one up

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Something like that...then the attorneys said it's not going to work...then somebody got the bright idea, but I know how to get the MLB and the owners on our side quickly. So maybe Michael Rains or somebody else has been calling the baseball owners and giving them the message that Barry doesn't plan on taking the entire rap...he's going to bring owners and the MLB down with him.

Is the whole scenario far-fetched...it certainly is, but it is consistent with how money and power works in the United States.

Peter C.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Jason,

Jeff is just being argumentative...I wasn't praising the cold blooded killer, I was merely trying to figure out his warped view of the world. But let's not discuss that massacre again.

Peter C.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jason, Peter is right, I was just supporting my argument that Peter often makes no sense, such as when he described the Va Tech killer as 'noble.' Peter, why do you always have to assume that the powers that be in our country are totally base and dishonest? Can you honestly say that you believe that Michael Rains has had contact with the owners of Major League Baseball teams to discuss Barry's legal strategies?

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Jeff,

How about this for irony I just noticed on Yahoo News that a New York publisher is going to publish OJ's book, "If I did it." OJ's just asking for it.

To get back to your questions...I simply believe that among the Powers That Be...it is still one hand washes the other. Barry is paying big bucks to his attorney and they are calling for favors.

Peter C.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

So the criminal lawyer is calling in 'favors' from Major League Baseball? Tell us how that works.

[Archive]

Posted By: Max Weder

Jeff

I think you missed Peter's subtlety. Bonds' attornies aren't calling in favors; Peter indicated they are calling for favors. Apparently, I must have missed the class which taught the law of tenders for favors in law school....

And I thought tax law was complicated.

Max

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Max, sorry I missed that. Now it makes all the sense in the world.

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

Jason, the reason people blame Selig is that when McGwire was caught with Andro, they knew then that players were up to something. He could have easily stepped in and clamped down on this sort of drug use. He decided to do nothing because baseball was making a comeback and he didn't to killed the golden goose. Only when everything blew up in his face did he final come forward to try and do something.

To me, someone defending Selig is worse than what you guys think of someone that defends Bonds.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

So Selig is more culpable than Bonds in this whole mess?

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Evanov

I think the idea of Bonds taking baseball down with him is ludicrous. Barry is responsible for his own actions and his alleged steroid use, perjury and tax evasion have nothing to do with MLB.

Frank

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Frank,

From what we know, clearly it's far-fetched. But we don't know what Barry knows, and if Barry starts blabbing that may lead to investigations of MLB and Bud Selig. Who knows, I'm just speculating.

Peter C.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

What impact will The Card have on this?

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Oh yah...The Card...I guess sometimes I do get carried away.

But two facts which lend some credibility to this scenario is that Bud Selig told Jason Giambi to limit some of his testimony to Senator Mitchell.

And Tony Gwynn when he was inducted into the HOF mentioned that the steroid problem was generally known among baseball people. Now Tony has never been known to shoot off his mouth. So you know he chose his words very carefully, which leads me to think that if anything, he understated the problem.

Peter C.

Edited to add: There's also a third fact, Bonds was shooting off his mouth about how the Feds should come and get him. Maybe, it wasn't all bravado, maybe he does have some hidden cards up his sleeve.

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

Jeff, I would say yes, becuase if he had stepped in right away done something when McGwire got caught, then the chances of Bonds cheating would have lessened. Although I doubt it would have stopped him, or anyone else that used PEDs that they new were undetectable.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jay, I don't care for Selig for a number of reasons having nothing to do with the steroid era. And I don't disagree at all with you that he, along with the rest of the owners, obviously are complicit in the spread of steroids in MLB. Notice I don't say that they simply turned a blind eye: I think their actions (and lack of action) make them complicit. All that being said, I think ultimately a man has to take responsibility for his own actions and any rational player who took steroids knew he was cheating. It was always the 'dirty secret' in the clubhouse because it was just that -- a secret -- because the juicers knew what they were doing was wrong. They are the first in line for blame, with the owners right behind them.

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

The thing is that during the time frame when people claim Bonds was using PEDs, there was nothing in the rules against it. Unethical? probably. Cheating by definition of the rules? No. Not unless he did it after they made rules against it.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

There were also no rules against wearing shoes with rockets to propel players around the bases. If it's unethical in baseball that's enough for me - especially when the users knew enough to hide what they were doing.

[Archive]

Posted By: Zach S.

Barry Bonds was part of the reason WHY major leauge baseball had to enact PED laws/testing. Saying that he's not guilty because MLB never said it was wrong to take PED's is retarded. I echo what Jeff said about how they knew that they shouldn't have been taking PED's or why would they hide it? If it was o.k. for them to take PED's then you know Bonds or McGuire or one of those jackasses would've been making extra money promoting BALCO products.

Zach S.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Good point, Zach. However, Bonds did actually do ads for Balco -- but wouldn't you know it, he only appeared in ads promoting vitamin supplements and not the 'flaxseed oil' he was supposedly rubbing on himself.

[Archive]

Posted By: Zach S.

Jeff, was it something like this?

Look what BALCO products did for Barry! Blow up with BALCO!


This is a future BALCO advertisement when Barry's estrogen levels start to rise.

[Archive]

Posted By: Rich Klein

He will get in

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Now that Barry has the HR record, I just hope his head doesn't swell up more.

Peter C.