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#1
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: JimCrandell
Firstly thank you all for the outpouring of support. I think almost everyone supports this in concept and as long as the boards are not crowded with the other posts I think almost all will be happy. I have gotten a lot of e-mails regarding ideas and I wish you would all post them here so they can be talked about. I would also refer you to Bruce Dorskind's post a week or so ago where he proposed a number of things. Lastly before listing my ideas of steps I would ask you all to remember that many dealers are taking light creases out of cards(some think this is fine) and that the microtrimming/reshaping of cards has been described as an epidemic--hopefully the top grading companies can stay on top of this. |
#2
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: Frank Wakefield
My thinking would be to end your inquisition, or at least give us a break and keep it down to one thread. |
#3
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: dennis
how about the next step is starting your own net 54 board to discuss these issues. |
#4
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: T206Collector
[I think almost everyone supports this in concept.] |
#5
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: JimCrandell
T206, |
#6
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: peter ullman
i personally am pretty tired of all of this nonsense as well. this isn't medicine...it's not rocket science...it's a hobby...collecting pieces of cardboard with pictures of men in leggings...what the f$%k? |
#7
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: T206Collector
...the concept that is troubling, it's the measure of enforcement -- saying everyone loves you, when Leon has a post saying 50% of e-mails think you're killing Net54; suggesting that anyone that isn't supportive of a code of ethics isn't ethical; starting 15 posts asking auction houses to respond -- failure to respond results in the suggestion that such auction houses are unethical. |
#8
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: Tom Boblitt
ones you list but are YOU ready to man the helm, set up the office, collect dues and disburse checks, send out dealer packets, etc etc etc. I think the idea has been tried before. Not sure what the name was but there was one or more collector type endorsing agencies during the 1980's and it kinda fell through from what I can remember. The issues (and DOLLARS) are much larger now and it might gain legs, but someone has to be IN CHARGE. I know you've pushed these issues. Are you the man? |
#9
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: John S
Jim, |
#10
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: barrysloate
Jim- your ideas are excellent but like everything else in this hobby and on this board, getting people to come to an agreement may be more difficult than trying to clean up the mess. But I would be interested to see how this all evolves. |
#11
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: leon
I spoke with Jim about this this morning. It's a great idea, imo, but just won't work as no one that wants it wants it bad enough to devote all of the time it will take. At the same time I think, if this stuff is so important, then this thread will stay on top, and on topic, and the rest of the threads can talk about cards. I do politely disagree with Barry a little bit. I think this board is resiliant and the hobby is FAR more resiliant and will still be fun for whomever wants it to be. It was a bad day for me yesterday on the board as it was for a lot of people. I guess if you were advertising it was a good day as we had 29,800 hits to the main page (a record by more than 6000 hits) and over 500 posts (another record by over 200).....Also, I might have had my first experience with not letting someone advertise because of the position they put me in late last night. I am still on the fence about it though. My guess is there might not be any advertising in the long run if I keep getting those insinuated "ultimatums" from advertisers....which might not be bad anyway.....Also, I guess that makes the few that will advertise get that much more bang for their buck...which they deserve.....take care and thanks again for all of the kind words and emails....they really are appreciated. |
#12
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: Peter_Spaeth
These analogies seem awfully far-fetched. |
#13
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: jackgoodman
Jim, |
#14
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: Jay
Jim--Maybe the best idea is that, along with Leon, you set up a committee to go forward and try to put together a draft of what is acceptable and what is not. This draft, after completed, could be run by the board for comments. After a few iterations you may have something that could form the basis for an industry watchdog group. This would probably move things along more quickly and, at the same time, allow the board to breathe and return discussions to mainly vintage cards. |
#15
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: Al C.risafulli
I think this is an important issue, and unfortunately it's not one that only affects collectors of high-grade material. It's also not one that only affects collectors of GRADED material. |
#16
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: JimCrandell
Paul, |
#17
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: leon
I gave my opinion. It counts as 1. .......just like everyone else's. IF it will work then me saying it won't, won't make a difference. If Barry Halper couldn't do it back in the day, and no one is stepping up to the plate to take charge now, then my view stands. I hope I am wrong..... |
#18
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: John Walters
Hi Jim, the Goodwin thread where you called Dave Forman a hero is locked, so I will post here, but you said "what heroes like Dave Forman are doing to combat it." |
#19
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: JimCrandell
Leon, |
#20
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: JimCrandell
John, |
#21
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: Kyle
Why not start your own auction house in which you gaurantee all the cards/items for sale are unaltered? |
#22
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: Wesley
It is certainly worth a try. Perhaps a committee of six people who are all passionate about the hobby but with differing opinions would work out best for this card police activity. I would nominate the following: |
#23
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: JimCrandell
I have a job. |
#24
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: Wesley
So you think the committee should consist of only unemployed collectors? |
#25
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: barrysloate
Jim- what you may find is little resistance by the honorable dealers to join such an organization, but you may not even be able to weed out and identify the culprits who operate under the radar and cause all the problems. It is likely that the paper restorers who are creating many of these bad cards are not known by us and sell their work to fringe dealers who then take them to shows, sell them, and disappear. These invisible problems may be the major source of the hobby's problems and these guys may never be identified, nor will they join a committee. |
#26
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: JimCrandell
Wesley, |
#27
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: Peter_Spaeth
My personal belief, and it is just that, is that paper restorers are working a lot closer to the surface than Barry thinks. |
#28
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: barrysloate
Peter- what do you mean by close to the surface? I am not asking you to name names, but are they identifiable? |
#29
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: Peter_Spaeth
Yes, Barry, many people including well-known dealers know who they are and work with them -- in my opinion, of course. Some dealers may even have that expertise themselves -- in my opinion. |
#30
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: howard
Inquisition? McCarthy? Why stop there? Hitler and Stalin had plenty of supporters also. One of McCarthy's supporters, by the way, was lefty favorite Bobby kennedy. |
#31
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: JimCrandell
Barry, Perhaps but I don't think so. |
#32
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: JimCrandell
To clear up the record(this was pointed out to me in one e-mail), I feel the same way about Brian Drent as I do about JP and Bill. I think he is an honest dealer who would prefer not to post his thoughts here.. |
#33
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: whitehse
Again as a small time collector maybe I am a voice in the wilderness. The recent postings has opened my eyes even wider to issues in this hobby. I think we all knew things like this were happening but to get some sort of confirmation was very alarming. |
#34
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: Josh Adams
And here I was thinking that by this morning, there wouldn't be any more new threads. Ahhh!! Can we just give it a rest?! |
#35
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: JimCrandell
Whitehse, |
#36
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: leon
With all due respect and nothing personal I think this one thread is a great compromise......Surly anyone can not open 1 little ole thread if they don't want to. How about starting a good one yourself? take care |
#37
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: shane
Jim- Everyone has a job. |
#38
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: Corey R. Shanus
Perhaps the most illuminating post I have read on the many threads discussing this issue was Leon's reciting the substantial increase in hits and posts yesterday when this issue reached crescendo. To me at least that signifies that what we are discussing has hit a chord. While I respect very much those who opine we have beat this issue to death, or that the issue should not have been raised in the first place, and that I do agree we would have been better off without some of the negativism and innuendos (a point I might add which I believe applies to many other threads), I do feel this whole issue of card doctoring is a legitimate one for this Board and indeed is as productive and relevant a topic as this Board has ever discussed. |
#39
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: Ted Zanidakis
In the early 1990's an organization of Dealers was formed called "Sports Collectibles Association |
#40
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: JimCrandell
Shane, |
#41
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: JimCrandell
Corey, |
#42
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: Jay
Shane--Are you saying that Steve has a 5'2" ass? That is very big! We must have different tastes but I can only commend Steve's hiring practices--especially with respect to his assistant at the National two years ago. |
#43
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: John
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#44
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: John
This concept is nothing new; in fact many industries employ this same type of concept from the steel, lumber, food, drug etc. Below is the formula in which they follow if you’re interested. The trick then becomes how do you implement the below into our hobby. I think its virtually impossible. But I will say I feel the below guidelines are the only true and effective way of regulating any industry. All other ways are essentially non enforceable or pointless. |
#45
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: Mike
Ted |
#46
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: JimCrandell
John(Wonka), |
#47
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: Peter_Spaeth
Of course Congress is not going to investigate but it is at least possible that if cases of alteration could be well documented, a zealous prosecutor somewhere might be interested given the size of the industry. This did happen in autographs as I understand it, perhaps someone can correct that impression if it is wrong. One could track certain purchases on ebay, for example, and certain sales a month or two later and show patterns of significant "improvements" in cards -- distinctive markings or features show that they are the same cards. And I am sure there are other ways to build a case, for example, obviously stuff was done to the Lajoie card we have seen scans of. Collectively these would support an inference that something untoward is going on. But who among us is willing to make that effort or to come forward? Especially if the evidence suggests a friend may be among the culprits? |
#48
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: John
Jim, I would be happy to give any and all input during that process. |
#49
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: JimCrandell
Thanks John, |
#50
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My Ideas for Next Steps
Posted By: Peter_Spaeth
If there is one thing that is clear from these threads, there is nothing even close to a consensus among collectors, dealers and auction houses as to what are acceptable and unacceptable alterations. At the extremes everyone can agree, but in between there is a great variance of views. I would be curious how a representative group could ever establish a consensus industry standard in light of this divergence of views. Perhaps the better solution would be to agree on disclosure practices -- although of course compliance would be a huge issue given how much is undetectable. |
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