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#1
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)
Not too long ago there were a bunch of OJs being offered by a seller that weren't "original" OJs. Scott won a McCarthy version of one of these cards. Also, I think it was JC that also saw them and deteremined that they weren't actual OJs. |
#2
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: Julie Vognar
original OJs). An OJ with a confectioner's stamp on the back--why not? It's got a blank back, hasn't it? |
#3
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: identify7
Not only is the color of the card questionable, but with the sellers conditions: "Any description of the items contained in this auction is for the sole purpose of identifying the items, and no description of items has been made part of the basis of the bargain or has created any express warranty that the goods would conform to any description made by the seller.. |
#4
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)
Julie, |
#5
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: jay behrens
Gill, this sounds like the seller I started a thread about because of that return policy a weeks ago. I had your same exact thtought when I read that disclaimer. It also kept me from bidding on his cards? He may be covering his arse with that policy, but wonder if you realizes that it is probably costing him more money than it is saving him in agrivation. |
#6
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: Scott Mosley
Fred, |
#7
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: Nick
He's also selling a Buchner Gold Coin graded by PRO! |
#8
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: tbob
Despite his disclaimer of liability and return policy wording, my understanding is that if you pay with a credit card and the card is not genuine, you can cancel payment on your credit card and return the card to the seller. Is anyone thinking this is correct? |
#9
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: jay behrens
i would assume so. All you have to do is go thru your CC company and regardless of what his return policy, your CC company isn't going to let him try and rip you off. |
#10
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: pete
briefly and saw a couple of net54 users....he has good feedback, do you think just these latest cards are funny? |
#11
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: Julie Vognar
wait for a more user-friendly auction... |
#12
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)
Thanks for the feedback. The whole reason for the question is because a few of these sold on ebay recently and there have been two, probably very qualified, opinions that these cards are possibly/probably not real OJs issued from 1887-1890. The cards dimensions are smaller than normal. I will email the seller and request the dimensions. I'll post the response in this thread. |
#13
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)
The seller was nice enough to respond quickly and very cordially - here's the reply: |
#14
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: scott brockelman
as the winner of one of the early auctions of one of these "questionable" cards, i will state my brief opinion. |
#15
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: scott brockelman
well, a little research has turned up a joseph royer in lancaster, PA before the turn of the century who was a confectioner. seems he was a very prominent candy maker who taught one milton hershey the business, of course hershey became a household name to this day. |
#16
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: scott brockelman
i am bumping this so folks can see the data i added in the post above. |
#17
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: Jay Miller
Scott--If you are so inclined would you send me one of the cards to look at. There were some photograph reproductions of Old Judge cards made pre-1980 that sound alot like these, albeit without the handstamp on the back. Those reproductions are somewhat smaller than the real cards and are a brown yellow in color. I have two and would be happy to compare them. |
#18
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: scott brockelman
jay, |
#19
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: Keith O'Leary
I can tell you what Scott says is true and 50 West King is now Rick's Deli.
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#20
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: Dan Gantt
I can add another odd log to the fire. I have had for years a Cracker Jack (of Gandil, if my memory serves me correctly) with a Royer stamped ad back. It is clearly not a contemporaneous Cracker Jack issue (having an odd surface sheen) and, indeed, appears to me to be a period reproduction of the front. The stamped back is otherwise blank. I have always guessed that Royer, perhaps in the early 20s, after Gandil had become infamous, had simply had the card reproduced as a giveaway advertising his business. The appearance of Royer ad Old Judge reprints seems consistent. |
#21
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)
Dan, |
#22
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: Dan Gantt
Luddite that I am, I still do not own a scanner. I will, however, try to find the card and post a recitation of the stamped material from the back as accurately as possible. |
#23
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)
Dan, |
#24
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: Dan Gantt
I've just found the Gandil Cracker Jack card that I mentioned in an earlier post. The Gandil is a horizontal pose. The back has none of the information normally found on Gandil's Cracker Jack. Instead, there is advertising printed or stamped vertically on the back. The top two-thirds contains a Coca-Cola ad, depicting a head shot of dark-haired young woman holding a filled glass with words reading "Everybody Drinks Coca-Cola." Beneath that, filling the bottom third, is the identical language in essentially the same type-fonts as in the prior post, with each line centered right to left: |
#25
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)
That's some great informaton. There are copy OJs and Cracker Jack cards (about 25 years difference in distribution) with the Royer stamp. I wonder what it all means. It would be interesting to see someone come up with a period of time that Royer occupied the address in the stamp or it could be interesting to find other issues of reproductions printed with this same stamp the back. |
#26
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: identify7
Scott reports that the Royer OJs are albumen photos likely circa 1890. |
#27
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: Keith O'Leary
I took the liberty of calling the Lancaster Historical Society research department. They have an extensive business directory collection. Joseph R Royer opened his confection business at 52 W King Street in 1882 and was in business at that address until 1910.
This should answer ALL questions .
Keith
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#28
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: Daniel Bretta
In business at that address until 1910. I guess that makes the cards counterfeit. Why would Joseph Royer go through the trouble and expense of making these cards and stamping them with the old address? |
#29
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: identify7
It sure makes the CJ even more interesting. It seems a bit elaborate for a hoax. |
#30
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: Daniel Bretta
Doesn't really seem that elaborate to me. |
#31
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: identify7
Dan: what I meant was - why put on the Coca Cola ad, if you are faking a reproduction (now a fake fake is a new concept for me)? |
#32
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: Daniel Bretta
You put on the Coca Cola ad to entice Coke collectors at the flea market. |
#33
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: Dan Gantt
The idea that these are some sort of hoax trumped up years later seems extremely far-fetched to me. I've had the Cracker Jack Royer for far more than ten years. Apparently, the Old Judge Royer's have only recently surfaced. An oddly disjointed hoax, I'd think, at least in terms of timing. (And who would have done the research to find a real, old-time business to peg them to? Why not just make up a firm name?) |
#34
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: Keith O'Leary
Hi Dan.
I called them back to make sure. They were looking at business directories that were put out by year. Royer was first seen in the directory for 1882, was last seen in 1910 and was not in the 1911 one.
Now....some more fuel (found this out just now) for ponder. This morning, he had only mentioned the 52 W King St address. I asked about the 50 W King addy. Heres what he told me:
in 1882 the candy store opened at 52 W King and he lived at 50 W King in 1886 he saw evidence of the same arrangement in 1888 he moved his residence to 510 N Queen 1n 1894 he moved his residence to 144 College Ave
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#35
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: Dan Gantt
As they say, it just keeps getting curioser and curioser. Why would anyone, after 1914-15, reissue a baseball card with advertising for a defunct confectioner? Certainly, the Coca-Cola reference in that time frame makes sense, but why Royer at that address if he was no longer in business? And who would just pick that name and address for inclusion on hoax cards as disparate in time frame as Old Judges and Cracker Jacks? How thoroughly odd. |
#36
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)
Here's something else to add. I have one of those small OJ type of reprints. It measures 1 1/4 x 2 3/8. It resides in an SCD quick grade holder that is still sealed. I purchased it on ebay a while back. It appears to be albumen on thicker than typical OJ cardboard stock. There is no stamp on the back, it is blank. |
#37
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: Scott Mosley
Perhaps Joseph Royer Jr. got hold of dads business stamp and liked how it looked so much that he stamped a couple of the Cracker Jacks that he collected at the time? |
#38
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: scott brockelman
as i recall the original seller of these, stated that he had the items for over 20 years, i don;t think these are recent concoction, and 20+ years ago? what could they have possibly been worth, very little. |
#39
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OJ collectors and Scott Brockelman
Posted By: identify7
Gee, if we had Hal involved in this, we would already know that the Coca Cola/Royer/Cracker Jack thing was Ty Cobb's initial marketing adventure. And we would be looking for examples of Texas Tommy Type 1 Royer overprints. |
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