Memory Lane sold cards they didn't have per SCD

[brad31]

What a crazy situation. My thoughts:

1) Somebody advised Memory Lane to complete the auction to establish value.
2) if consigners are paid the amount the items would have been sold for less agreed upon fees then they have handled a crappy situation as well as cold have been done.
3) if Memory Lane’s policy covers this loss then they were responsible in how they handled the cards - they did nothing with the cards that would prevent them from full compensation.
4) The winning bidders are getting hosed but this is unavoidable - there is no such thing as a victimless crime.

2 above is the biggest key - Memory Lane needs to make things right for the “owners” of the cards (consigners) at the time of the loss from theft. They can go after Best Western, insurance, etc. but their direct business hinges on safeguarding the items being auctioned. If Best Western is found liable (which I doubt) this is a small ancillary part of their business and will have little/no effect in them.

3 above is a moot point as long as Memory Lane does number 2.

The thief is the problem. Everyone else are victims - but the buck stops at Memory Lane to pay their consigners in a reasonable amount of time.

I think the cards are likely to be recovered because pretty much the only way for that not to happen at some point in the future is the perpetrator to dispose of them.

[parkplace33]

It will be be interesting to see what material auction houses bring to the National and other cards shows this year and if this theft (and other thefts) affects that. I expect them to bring less that what they have brought in the past. The risk now outweighs the gain in my opinion.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

It will be be interesting to see what material auction houses bring to the National and other cards shows this year and if this theft (and other thefts) affects that. I expect them to bring less that what they have brought in the past. The risk now outweighs the gain in my opinion.

1. I doubt it has any impact on what is brought.

2. I don't doubt it will have an impact on HOW it's brought.

The only exception to point one might be if a consignor requests his items not to travel, but that really isn't in their best interests as promoting the items is the real job of the auction company.

[Jewish-collector]

This whole situation might mean auction houses will never bring the really great cards to showcase. Maybe they will have enlarged heavy cardboard photocopies or power point presentations.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Kco

HOW you chose to finance your purchase is on you, not the AH. At the end of the day thats your prerogative. I'm not supporting ML here, what they did has tarnished them at this point, but whatever you personally are doing to get your cashflow ready is your business.

I think he could reasonably expect that he had won a card though. Since it was being auctioned. He was lied to by someone.

[Yoda]

A global outfit like Great Western will have a master policy in place that will provide a difference in conditions and limits over local hotels everywhere. The local GW hotel to where the cards were shipped will have coverage locally as well as under the master policy. Once the property claim has been settled, the carrier is legally free to subrogate against BW for their failure to protect guests lives and (ML) property, their primary legal obligation. The carrier will seek subrogation not against the local hotel but the parent co. Of course, this assumes the cards are never recovered.
GW also has the right to subrogate against anyone involved in the theft. For example, if the thief is apprehended then GW could start litigation against him, although good luck on that one. He probably doesn't have a pot to piss in.
Since it is a police matter as well, it is going to be a complicated claim. The statutory state Innkeepers Liability Law is a minor piece in all this. It is more designed for the guy who claims that his load of dirty laundry has been lost than the lady who claims her precious 10K diamond ring was stolen in the hotel. That's why the limit is so low.

[tjisonline]

Great call Ryan. I’m so sorry you and the other consigners are going through this. Best wishes going forward w/ this situation.

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Perhaps, and if that’s the case, I apologize. But there have been many bravdo, know-it-all, irresponsible, etc statements made on this thread by people who don’t know facts, don’t know law (even though they act like the Supreme Court of internet chat boards), and, I think, don’t understand the potential damage and offense of their public musings, accusations, and assumptions; and, I believe, several are well aware of the offense.

For the benefit of the hobby and this community, I have tried to be open and communicative as a consignor about what I know and think on the matter. But this will be my last post on this thread. I will not update this board on how things turn out on my end- the peanut gallery ain’t worth it and I sure as hell don’t want to hear anyone’s opinion on the matter.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by brunswickreeves

Which card did you purchase from hard sell?

I PM'd you!

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

I still can't get over the fact that ML sent over $2 million dollars worth of cards to a Best Western and held it there for 3 days before they picked them up.

As I recall, the package was left in an "area" where the packages are left. I don't know if that was under the counter or in the small adjoining back room?

I did ask them about a "safe" upon check in as there was not one in the room I was told. They said they had one and i could leave my valuables with them. i wisely kept everything on my person for the entire trip.

I don't believe the "package" ever made it to the hotel safe or if they were asked to put it in the safe by ML? This was just what I "overheard" sitting in the lobby during the follow-up investigation on Saturday of the show.

[BeanTown]

On a side note, but relevant here. Does it really help an auction to realize higher prices for lots by displaying at shows? Everything is done via catalogs and websites for viewing items nowadays. Plus AHs that want to display items before a sale can have potential bidders come to their place to view items. I think shows are more like a “show and tell” and making statement they are viable. Wonder what the percentage of bidders from the last ML auction, were actually in attendance at the show where ML had stuff stolen at.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

On a side note, but relevant here. Does it really help an auction to realize higher prices for lots by displaying at shows? Everything is done via catalogs and websites for viewing items nowadays. Plus AHs that want to display items before a sale can have potential bidders come to their place to view items. I think shows are more like a “show and tell” and making statement they are viable. Wonder what the percentage of bidders from the last ML auction, were actually in attendance at the show where ML had stuff stolen at.

Agree with that. It always struck me as advertising the AH for future consignments more than advertising the cards themselves.

[notfast]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

On a side note, but relevant here. Does it really help an auction to realize higher prices for lots by displaying at shows? Everything is done via catalogs and websites for viewing items nowadays. Plus AHs that want to display items before a sale can have potential bidders come to their place to view items. I think shows are more like a “show and tell” and making statement they are viable. Wonder what the percentage of bidders from the last ML auction, were actually in attendance at the show where ML had stuff stolen at.

I’d guess having items on display helps attract consignors as much or more than attracting bidders.

I personally like seeing stuff I may be bidding on at the larger shows. Helps to see stuff in person and traveling to where the auction house is located isn’t super realistic for the majority of people/items.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by notfast

I’d guess having items on display helps attract consignors as much or more than attracting bidders.

I personally like seeing stuff I may be bidding on at the larger shows. Helps to see stuff in person and traveling to where the auction house is located isn’t super realistic for the majority of people/items.

+1. I think it helps sales and that is what it's all about. Maybe someone walking by an AH table sees something they have too, and want to sell. There are limitless scenarios when having consignments on display helps.

.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

On a side note, but relevant here. Does it really help an auction to realize higher prices for lots by displaying at shows? Everything is done via catalogs and websites for viewing items nowadays. Plus AHs that want to display items before a sale can have potential bidders come to their place to view items. I think shows are more like a “show and tell” and making statement they are viable. Wonder what the percentage of bidders from the last ML auction, were actually in attendance at the show where ML had stuff stolen at.

I know first hand that there are people who inspect items I bring to shows in order to make bidding decisions. Now I'm not just bringing the top 30 or 40 single cards to shows I'm hauling a lot of stuff for multiple auctions around and trying to pick things that are important to see live like complete sets, or raw cards in addition to the big featured items. Of course we're hoping to attract consignors as well, but don't underestimate the impact on bidding of seeing something live

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Hotel employees obviously know whats coming to town, especially as the hotel that has hosted the event for years. It doesn't take a criminal mastermind to open a couple of boxes obviously intended for the show and discover cards in one, and catalogs in another and only take the good one. I think this was a crime of opportunity not some grand caper.

Also if you've stayed in ANY hotel recently you know how understaffed they are. There was likely very little danger of someone being caught red-handed opening the boxes to check them out, especially if it was someone on the overnight shift when there's usually only one desk person present.

I'd like to give law enforcement a little more credit than thinking maybe they were delivered to the wrong hotel and nobody has figured that out yet, that seems pretty far-fetched.

I agree. This is the Occam's razor explanation. No need for an Ocean's Eleven plot here to explain how and why the cards were stolen.

Also, given what we already know about the sorts of decisions that JP/ML makes, I think we can also assume that the return address on the box read "Memory Lane Auctions" and that the box was clearly marked "Top 50 cards for display at Strongsville show" and had a giant red stamp that read "VALUABLE CONTENTS INSIDE - PLEASE HANDLE WITH CARE".

[rand1com]

Originally Posted by Leon

I don't blame you.

+1.

Certainly, an unfortunate situation but the discussion seems to greatly overlook the real criminal here is the thief.

I have dealt with Memory Lane for MANY years and they have always been upfront and professional.

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I agree. This is the Occam's razor explanation. No need for an Ocean's Eleven plot here to explain how and why the cards were stolen.

Also, given what we already know about the sorts of decisions that JP/ML makes, I think we can also assume that the return address on the box read "Memory Lane Auctions" and that the box was clearly marked "Top 50 cards for display at Strongsville show" and had a giant red stamp that read "VALUABLE CONTENTS INSIDE - PLEASE HANDLE WITH CARE".

Now I’m bummed my five figure winning card didn’t make the top 50 card list.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

Now I’m bummed my five figure winning card didn’t make the top 50 card list.

LOL never thought of that. It's sort of a badge of honor.

"The cards I won were so good they were among the ones stolen"

"meh, my $10,000 card didn't make the cut"

[parkplace33]

This entire thread reminds me of the last big auction issue (Boston Garters HA auction of 2023):

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=339591

I hope the rest of 2024 is AH issue free.

[Jewish-collector]

Drew - There's always been issues with cards and/or piece of memorabilia at auction houses going back over the years. We'll have dinner together in Cleveland and I'll tell you all about them.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

1. I doubt it has any impact on what is brought.

2. I don't doubt it will have an impact on HOW it's brought.

The only exception to point one might be if a consignor requests his items not to travel, but that really isn't in their best interests as promoting the items is the real job of the auction company.

I would argue that the added value for the consigner of having their cards brought to a show for display is very low. Likely near-zero, especially if the auction house provides good scans along with complete and accurate descriptions.

I think the added value is almost entirely for the auction house itself. They want to display the cards as bait so they can lure in other high end items for consignment.

That's not intended to be a criticism of the AH. They have to generate business and it's an effective mechanism for doing that. But they're definitely leveraging the property of their consigners to build their business.

I think this is also why, assuming the reporting is accurate, that most of us think that the carelessness with how ML chose to ship and handle these cards (which belonged to their customers and not them) is the greater offense in this entire debacle.

[Seven]

My biggest fear concerning these cards, is that they never see the light of day again, which would be a tragedy for the hobby, especially that Mello-Mint Cobb. I'm sure many of the cards can be cracked and reslabbed, but that one is so rare I feel like If someone tried it, they'd be outed immediately.

[LOUCARDFAN]

I love that auction houses bring items to shows because there have been a few times being able to see the item in person just cemented the fact that I had to have that particular item.

The question is did ML inform anyone at BW that a package was being shipped to them? If so, did they tell them the value?

The amount of employee turn over at a cut rate hotel like BW is huge so unless the owner (if privately owned) or the General Manager was contacted and informed then ML was just playing with fire. Hotels like this aren't equipped to protect valuables like that. Does anyone expect a hotel desk clerk making $13 an hour is going to care or protect a package. Hell, I can't tell you how many hotels I have walked into and there isn't anyone at the desk and it takes someone a couple of minutes or more to actually show up.

Even if they did inform the hotel that a very valuable package was being shipped to them it just opens the door for a low wage hotel worker to set up the theft.

Is it common for auction houses to ship collectibles to a hotel like this for a show? I can't imagine that it is. I just don't understand the thought process of ML to send someone else's property like this.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by LOUCARDFAN

Is it common for auction houses to ship collectibles to a hotel like this for a show? I can't imagine that it is. I just don't understand the thought process of ML to send someone else's property like this.

No, of course not. Only an idiot would do that. Or more specifically, only an idiot that doesn't give two shits about their customers that is.

[Leon]

When I sold my 1st collection, I wanted it displayed at shows. A good bit of it was at the 2015 National, as I recall.

Originally Posted by Snowman

I would argue that the added value for the consigner of having their cards brought to a show for display is very low. Likely near-zero, especially if the auction house provides good scans along with complete and accurate descriptions.

I think the added value is almost entirely for the auction house itself. They want to display the cards as bait so they can lure in other high end items for consignment.

That's not intended to be a criticism of the AH. They have to generate business and it's an effective mechanism for doing that. But they're definitely leveraging the property of their consigners to build their business.

I think this is also why, assuming the reporting is accurate, that most of us think that the carelessness with how ML chose to ship and handle these cards (which belonged to their customers and not them) is the greater offense in this entire debacle.

[parkplace33]

For those who have consigned items with AHs, did they ask you if they could bring your items to shows or do they just have the power to do that as part of the contract?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

As I recall, the package was left in an "area" where the packages are left. I don't know if that was under the counter or in the small adjoining back room?

I did ask them about a "safe" upon check in as there was not one in the room I was told. They said they had one and i could leave my valuables with them. i wisely kept everything on my person for the entire trip.

I don't believe the "package" ever made it to the hotel safe or if they were asked to put it in the safe by ML? This was just what I "overheard" sitting in the lobby during the follow-up investigation on Saturday of the show.

It might be the thief wasn't a BW+ employee, but a hobby-savvy person who was in town for the show, looking for opportunities to steal.

Perhaps a guest at the BW+. Maybe someone at Fedex who noticed the return address, or checked its tracking history and discovered its origination. Or a carpet cleaner, plumber, or other person who was there with their eyes open.

It would be interesting to know if ML puts its name on packages in the return address. That would be like a billboard advertisement to any hobbyist who might see the package.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

For those who have consigned items with AHs, did they ask you if they could bring your items to shows or do they just have the power to do that as part of the contract?

Don’t recall it ever being raised, either orally or in the contract.

Up until this debacle, I would have been thrilled if an AH dragged my items to shows. Great advertising. Now… not so much.

[DeanH3]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Yup. And that is exactly why Memory Lane and I (and the other affected consignors) conspired to have cards stolen, so we could shill bid the "stolen" cards and commit insurance fraud and make a little extra money. We just had no idea that you internet geniuses would figure out our brilliant plan.

Brunswickreeves, you are getting awfully close to implying something that is very untrue and extremely offensive. Watch it.

Guys, please be mindful that this is a public message board, and that this is a real and very unfortunate situation with the real potential for economic and reputational loss to real people. Its one thing to discuss this matter -- its a BIG deal in our hobby and should be discussed. But its another altogether to start making assumptions on facts nobody knows about and, worse, making assumptions about people's motives, throwing around words like fraudulent, "price run ups", etc.

Ryan Hotchkiss, Consignor to Memory Lane

Leon, perhaps its time to lock this thread before some members get sued (or counter-sued in the case of Snowman) because of careless, false, and harmful public statements.

Ryan, I'm hoping for the best for you. You've handled this situation way better than I would have. Good luck to you brother.

[Snapolit1]

For good or for bad, we live in a world where every story is a wild Netflix mystery to be solved, and every half baked idea or half ass speculation that someone concocts is dished out as stone cold fact. The idea of waiting for the actual facts to come out is a long gone quaint concept.

Was fighting with a few board members who figured out the whole Ohtani gambling situation days after it broke, based on nothing more than their filling in the blanks and drawing unwarranted conclusions from news articles based on zero evidence. Of course when LE came out to explain what the years of evidence showed actually did happen, it didn't square with their story at all. So at that point they immediately pivoted to argue coverup, because their half ass story could possibly be wrong.

That's the world we live in. Rush to judgment. I've figured it all out from my computer.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

For good or for bad, we live in a world where every story is a wild Netflix mystery to be solved, and every half baked idea or half ass speculation that someone concocts is dished out as stone cold fact. The idea of waiting for the actual facts to come out is a long gone quaint concept.

Was fighting with a few board members who figured out the whole Ohtani gambling situation days after it broke, based on nothing more than their filling in the blanks and drawing unwarranted conclusions from news articles based on zero evidence. Of course when LE came out to explain what the years of evidence showed actually did happen, it didn't square with their story at all. So at that point they immediately pivoted to argue coverup, because their half ass story could possibly be wrong.

That's the world we live in. Rush to judgment. I've figured it all out from my computer.

Since we don't have all the facts, are you suggesting we don't discuss it?

[brunswickreeves]

Originally Posted by DeanH3

Ryan, I'm hoping for the best for you. You've handled this situation way better than I would have. Good luck to you brother.

Completely agree; he & I had a nice PM yesterday and retain a good friendship. I clarified my post was in response to another in order to rebut its inference there was consignor/consignee wrongdoing. This terrible situation is indeed being handled with grace and class and hope all are made whole.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

For good or for bad, we live in a world where every story is a wild Netflix mystery to be solved, and every half baked idea or half ass speculation that someone concocts is dished out as stone cold fact. The idea of waiting for the actual facts to come out is a long gone quaint concept.

Was fighting with a few board members who figured out the whole Ohtani gambling situation days after it broke, based on nothing more than their filling in the blanks and drawing unwarranted conclusions from news articles based on zero evidence. Of course when LE came out to explain what the years of evidence showed actually did happen, it didn't square with their story at all. So at that point they immediately pivoted to argue coverup, because their half ass story could possibly be wrong.

That's the world we live in. Rush to judgment. I've figured it all out from my computer.

Hmmm, kinda reminds of something that had to do with bronze a couple of months ago.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Since we don't have all the facts, are you suggesting we don't discuss it?

No, wasn't saying that.

Just saying don't make shit up that you don't know is true.

[Republicaninmass]

Supreme Court of message boards !

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

No, wasn't saying that.

Just saying don't make shit up that you don't know is true.

Oh, the irony.

[Exhibitman]

With all the attention this theft is getting, I think there is a better than zero chance that the cards are already in a dumpster or at the bottom of Lake Erie.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

For good or for bad, we live in a world where every story is a wild Netflix mystery to be solved, and every half baked idea or half ass speculation that someone concocts is dished out as stone cold fact. The idea of waiting for the actual facts to come out is a long gone quaint concept.

Was fighting with a few board members who figured out the whole Ohtani gambling situation days after it broke, based on nothing more than their filling in the blanks and drawing unwarranted conclusions from news articles based on zero evidence. Of course when LE came out to explain what the years of evidence showed actually did happen, it didn't square with their story at all. So at that point they immediately pivoted to argue coverup, because their half ass story could possibly be wrong.

That's the world we live in. Rush to judgment. I've figured it all out from my computer.

Very well said.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

With all the attention this theft is getting, I think there is a better than zero chance that the cards are already in a dumpster or at the bottom of Lake Erie.

I see what you're saying, the thief might be scared stiff.

On the other hand, how easy is it for someone, especially a thief, to throw away $2,000,000.00?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I see what you're saying, the thief might be scared stiff.

On the other hand, how easy is it for someone, especially a thief, to throw away $2,000,000.00?

If the FBI is knocking on their door it might be a little easier. Let's all hope the cards are returned. Some close to the investigation still think it's possible they are, but no one knows right now.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I see what you're saying, the thief might be scared stiff.

On the other hand, how easy is it for someone, especially a thief, to throw away $2,000,000.00?

If the FBI is knocking on their door it might be a little easier. Let's all hope the cards are returned. Some close to the investigation still think it's possible they are, but no one knows right now.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I see what you're saying, the thief might be scared stiff.

On the other hand, how easy is it for someone, especially a thief, to throw away $2,000,000.00?

I'm not sure with the specific lots that we are dealing with, outside of the Cobb. But I would imagine most of the cards, would be able to be cracked and resubmitted, if the thief was smart and willing to bide their time.

The Cobb, there's no way of getting around it. It's such a rare issue, and that one looks so unique I think it would be borderline impossible to crack, reslab and sell anytime soon.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Leon

If the FBI is knocking on their door it might be a little easier. Let's all hope the cards are returned. Some close to the investigation still think it's possible they are, but no one knows right now.

I would think a decade ago this would have been solved in a couple days as the suspect list can't really be more than a small handful of employees. However, in the current day and time, getting an arrest requires 250 pages of evidence and a signed letter from the heads of every major police department within a tri-state area...then you are released with no bail within 2 hours.

Seems like I would not need Columbo to find which minimum wage employee was searching incoming packages and had no idea of the magnitude of his lackluster effort of a heist. I doubt they are dumped or burned as this level of genius would most likely think this was a future come up when the heat blows over. I think these are well hidden at a different location for a future plan that does not currently exist.

These cases are not solved by the perp fessing up, these guys can never keep the bragging silent on something like this. You have to try to break family and friends to see who he/her told.

[packs]

I don't think it would be hard to sit on the cards if you did steal them. I have an entire safe full of cards at my house and nobody knows about it. If I don't need the money today, I could wait five, ten or even fifteen years and have them regraded two or three times in between.

[brunswickreeves]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't think it would be hard to sit on the cards if you did steal them. I have an entire safe full of cards at my house and nobody knows about it. If I don't need the money today, I could wait five, ten or even fifteen years and have them regraded two or three times in between.

Your referenced methodology would eventually be uncovered, similar to a decades long art forgery scheme, played out in the 2020 documentary ‘Made You Look’.
https://m.imdb.com/title/tt11994750/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

[NiceDocter]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

LOL never thought of that. It's sort of a badge of honor.

"The cards I won were so good they were among the ones stolen"

"meh, my $10,000 card didn't make the cut"

Maybe a new pedigree on your holder… “MEMORY LANE HEIST “ ????

[MikeGarcia]

Originally Posted by NiceDocter

Maybe a new pedigree on your holder… “MEMORY LANE HEIST “ ????

.." The Best Western Find " ?

..

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by MikeGarcia

.." The Best Western Find " ?

..

This made me laugh! But, again, it's the more prestigious Best Western PLUS.

[Jewish-collector]

Someone should create a poll for what happens to the actual cards:

1)returned and all is back to normal
2) trashed
3) in a competitor's auction next month
ETC

[packs]

Originally Posted by brunswickreeves

Your referenced methodology would eventually be uncovered, similar to a decades long art forgery scheme, played out in the 2020 documentary ‘Made You Look’.
https://m.imdb.com/title/tt11994750/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

This was a documentary about fake art being passed as real art. There was a recent situation with signed T206 cards that is more similar to the art scheme. The downfall of the scheme was that the perpetrator didn't wait long enough to sign and sell the secondhand cards they purchased. They were in a rush to sell and it made it easier for people to find the completed auctions of the T206s while they were still unsigned, which made it easy to determine they weren't authentic after the fact.