Card doctoring video

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Damage to a collectible is relevant to value. Value usually goes down with damage. Missing pieces of a card is very, very obviously damage.

If alteration is not relevant to value or sales, if it does not affect prices, then 1) we wouldn't have a big majority of hobbyists thinking it relevant and 2) the pro-fraud wing of the hobby would not need to cover up their trimming; they could freely disclose it to no negative impact. Why don't they? Because it's bad and harms value. This shit isn't difficult. If you need to cover it up, it's material. If it's material, it needs to be disclosed whether it is a car, a baseball card, or anything else.

Personally, I don't really care if a card I buy is micro trimmed. It's slotted into my set and I'll enjoy it the same. But it's obviously material and if I covered up trimming when selling a card, I'd be committing fraud by hiding and not disclosing relevant information about the item. The world doesn't revolve around my personal narrative and what I like. Just a smidgeon of honesty and common sense goes a long way. If my dumbass can figure this out, I'm sure our resident pro-fraud 'hobbyists' that spend most of their posts explaining how fraud and scamming is fine can figure it out too.

The lengths to which people will go to deny what is self-evident, and/or to deny incontrovertible facts such as that the Wagner was part of the Mastro case if a small one, are astounding. And even more astounding is how people will double down in the face of being presented with self-evident points, and facts.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The lengths to which people will go to deny what is self-evident, and/or to deny incontrovertible facts such as that the Wagner was part of the Mastro case if a small one, are astounding. And even more astounding is how people will double down in the face of being presented with self-evident points, and facts.

Now I ain't no fancy pants lawyer or nothin', but I'm pretty sure that just because you are admitting it in your plea bargain and take culpability and responsibility for an action even though the statute of limitations on it has expired, it doesn't mean that action was illegal. People just, like, cop to things that aren't illegal in their plea deals all the time just because.

We all have opinions, what is is not necessarily what should be, but what is is the realm of actual, verifiable and ascertainable fact. It amazes me how many people will insist X or Y is or is not in a document that they are unable or unwilling to read. No one has ever won an argument by virtue of their illiteracy. I expect a small number of hobbyists to openly support fraud and a much larger number to quietly and tacitly support fraud that benefits them and their buddies, but I would hope that these people would be able to avoid the stupid trap of insisting and doubling down on provably false claims to fact. Clearly they are too fucking dumb to do even that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Now I ain't no fancy pants lawyer or nothin', but I'm pretty sure that just because you are admitting it in your plea bargain and take culpability and responsibility for an action even though the statute of limitations on it has expired, it doesn't mean that action was illegal. People just, like, cop to things that aren't illegal in their plea deals all the time just because.

We all have opinions, what is is not necessarily what should be, but what is is the realm of actual, verifiable and ascertainable fact. It amazes me how many people will insist X or Y is or is not in a document that they are unable or unwilling to read. No one has ever won an argument by virtue of their illiteracy. I expect a small number of hobbyists to openly support fraud and a much larger number to quietly and tacitly support fraud that benefits them and their buddies, but I would hope that these people would be able to avoid the stupid trap of insisting and doubling down on provably false claims to fact. Clearly they are too fucking dumb to do even that.

To those who think selling trimmed cards without disclosure could never be viewed as a crime, the Mastro case is very inconvenient proof to the contrary. As is the FBI investigation of PWCC et al, even if ultimately charges were not brought. If there was no possible crime, nobody, least of all Brian Brusokas, would have devoted the enormous effort to investigating. Not that such proof is even needed, as it's very clear from the face of the mail and wire fraud statutes, which are always being applied to new situations.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To those who think selling trimmed cards without disclosure could never be viewed as a crime, the Mastro case is very inconvenient proof to the contrary. As is the FBI investigation of PWCC et al, even if ultimately charges were not brought. If there was no possible crime, nobody, least of all Brian Brusokas, would have devoted the enormous effort to investigating. Not that such proof is even needed, as it's very clear from the face of the mail and wire fraud statutes, which are always being applied to new situations.

It feels like you're spinning the facts here to fit your narrative though. Mastro was charged with shill bidding and ONE count of mail fraud, which was for the counterfeit baseball he sold and shipped through Mastro auctions. The mail fraud charge was also shared by other Mastro Auctions employees who had nothing to do with the Wagner. He didn't even mail the card at all. He sold it to someone in person as a cash deal in 1987.

I'm no lawyer, but when I read through discussions of this topic on the Blowhard forums a few years back, I seem to recall most of the lawyers there were in agreement that he had not in fact been charged with any crimes in relation to the Wagner card. But rather it was brought up during the trial as a mere testimony to his character, or lack thereof. Him basically just trying to come clean with anything and everything he could in an effort to gain favor and get a more lenient sentence. But he was not directly charged with a crime for anything related to the Wagner. You mention that he admitted to trimming the Wagner in his plea deal, but that plea deal was rejected by the judge. He was not sentenced for anything to do with the Wagner.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Snowman

It feels like you're spinning the facts here to fit your narrative though. Mastro was charged with shill bidding and ONE count of mail fraud, which was for the counterfeit baseball he sold and shipped through Mastro auctions. The mail fraud charge was also shared by other Mastro Auctions employees who had nothing to do with the Wagner. He didn't even mail the card at all. He sold it to someone in person as a cash deal in 1987.

I'm no lawyer, but when I read through discussions of this topic on the Blowhard forums a few years back, I seem to recall most of the lawyers there were in agreement that he had not in fact been charged with any crimes in relation to the Wagner card. But rather it was brought up during the trial as a mere testimony to his character, or lack thereof. Him basically just trying to come clean with anything and everything he could in an effort to gain favor and get a more lenient sentence. But he was not directly charged with a crime for anything related to the Wagner. You mention that he admitted to trimming the Wagner in his plea deal, but that plea deal was rejected by the judge. He was not sentenced for anything to do with the Wagner.

Thanks Travis, well said. You won’t change any minds here though.

And it’s funny how there was no response to this question posted earlier:

But my question for you is this… if there was no shill bidding and just the trimming, does this case still result in a plea deal?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Thanks Travis, well said. You won’t change any minds here though.

And it’s funny how there was no response to this question posted earlier:

But my question for you is this… if there was no shill bidding and just the trimming, does this case still result in a plea deal?

If that were the case, I think he certainly could have been charged with a crime, but as a matter of prosecutorial discretion I think it relatively unlikely they would have pursued it. No doubt the complaints of shill bidding were the impetus for going after him.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

It feels like you're spinning the facts here to fit your narrative though. Mastro was charged with shill bidding and ONE count of mail fraud, which was for the counterfeit baseball he sold and shipped through Mastro auctions. The mail fraud charge was also shared by other Mastro Auctions employees who had nothing to do with the Wagner. He didn't even mail the card at all. He sold it to someone in person as a cash deal in 1987.

I'm no lawyer, but when I read through discussions of this topic on the Blowhard forums a few years back, I seem to recall most of the lawyers there were in agreement that he had not in fact been charged with any crimes in relation to the Wagner card. But rather it was brought up during the trial as a mere testimony to his character, or lack thereof. Him basically just trying to come clean with anything and everything he could in an effort to gain favor and get a more lenient sentence. But he was not directly charged with a crime for anything related to the Wagner. You mention that he admitted to trimming the Wagner in his plea deal, but that plea deal was rejected by the judge. He was not sentenced for anything to do with the Wagner.

It's in the indictment itself. It wasn't "brought up during the trial." But don't let the facts get in the way, OK? I agree fully with people who are saying it's not the focus of the case. it was not. I only brought it up at all in response to the demonstrably false claim that selling an altered card without disclosure could not possibly be viewed as a crime. And again, speaking of questions nobody is answering, someone please explain why, if selling altered cards without disclosure could never be a crime, why the FBI undertook a several year investigation into card doctoring.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Again, from the US Attorney's office:


According to the indictment, in advertising portraying Mastro Auctions as the premier seller of valuable items, including the world’s most expensive baseball trading card, a Honus Wagner T-206 card, Mastro allegedly failed to disclose that he had altered the Wagner T-206 card by cutting the sides in a manner that, if disclosed, would have significantly reduced the value of the card. The charges allege that Mastro and Allen caused the sale of certain items knowing that their authenticity and condition were misrepresented to customers, including purported hair of Elvis Presley and a purported 1869 Cincinnati Red Stockings trophy baseball.

For those of you who apparently don't understand this, the indictment is the document setting forth the criminal charges.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Again, from the US Attorney's office:


According to the indictment, in advertising portraying Mastro Auctions as the premier seller of valuable items, including the world’s most expensive baseball trading card, a Honus Wagner T-206 card, Mastro allegedly failed to disclose that he had altered the Wagner T-206 card by cutting the sides in a manner that, if disclosed, would have significantly reduced the value of the card. The charges allege that Mastro and Allen caused the sale of certain items knowing that their authenticity and condition were misrepresented to customers, including purported hair of Elvis Presley and a purported 1869 Cincinnati Red Stockings trophy baseball.

For those of you who apparently don't understand this, the indictment is the document setting forth the criminal charges.

Well yes, but a company they like or people they like (or themselves) engage in this activity, and so indictments must be ignored alongside the text of the laws and the definition of criminal fraud itself so they can claim their boys didn't do nothing.

Arguing that things should be restructured so that trimming without disclosure is not fraud would at least not require being blatantly factually wrong, but that angle isn't perfect for the agenda, so it won't be used. Instead, just double down on factually incorrect claims to fact. That's the ticket.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's in the indictment itself. It wasn't "brought up during the trial." But don't let the facts get in the way, OK? I agree fully with people who are saying it's not the focus of the case. it was not. I only brought it up at all in response to the demonstrably false claim that selling an altered card without disclosure could not possibly be viewed as a crime. And again, speaking of questions nobody is answering, someone please explain why, if selling altered cards without disclosure could never be a crime, why the FBI undertook a several year investigation into card doctoring.

Unlike others who think they are Perry Mason I am not gonna touch on the legal merits but only to reiterate a comment you made earlier. Whether or not the concealment of a known alteration on a card one has for sale is a punishable crime, the very fact that nobody who sells and or defends these altered cards discloses the card is altered is telling as to what the hobby as a whole thinks of alterations.

The day when altered numerically graded cards (by respected TPG) are sold with full disclosure for consistently the same amount as an unaltered example in the same grade will be the time we can all agree that doctoring cards is accepted in the hobby. Until then I call utter BS on those who are advocating or defending it. Maybe that is because they themselves dabble in fixing cardboard. Kudos to them, however, for at least admitting they are ok with it. Takes some guts to do that so they have my respect from that POV.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Unlike others who think they are Perry Mason I am not gonna touch on the legal merits but only to reiterate a comment you made earlier. Whether or not the concealment of a known alteration on a card one has for sale is a punishable crime, the very fact that nobody who sells and or defends these altered cards discloses the card is altered is telling as to what the hobby as a whole thinks of alterations.

The day when altered numerically graded cards (by respected TPG) are sold with full disclosure for consistently the same amount as an unaltered example in the same grade will be the time we can all agree that doctoring cards is accepted in the hobby. Until then I call utter BS on those who are advocating or defending it. Maybe that is because they themselves dabble in fixing cardboard. Kudos to them, however, for at least admitting they are ok with it. Takes some guts to do that so they have my respect from that POV.

LOL imagine auction listings with BODA style before and after photos. Yeah, that will happen. On the 13th of Never.