Card doctoring video

[Exhibitman]

Well, if you trim a card and then sell it without disclosure it is fraud and may rise to the level of criminal fraud. If you mailed it or used electronic communications it may also be mail fraud or wire fraud, both crimes. Besides, is the metric so low in this hobby that criminality is now the line we draw when assessing the actions of others?

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Well, if you trim a card and then sell it without disclosure it is fraud and may rise to the level of criminal fraud. If you mailed it or used electronic communications it may also be mail fraud or wire fraud, both crimes. Besides, is the metric so low in this hobby that criminality is now the line we draw when assessing the actions of others?

The metric is so low....ethics in this industry have always sadly been piss poor to say the least.

[ullmandds]

I agree with the sentiment the trimming is altering and should be disclosed. But I do spend a bit of time over on Facebook and a lot of the younger folks could not care less what has happened to the card on its way to its sacred coffin.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Well, if you trim a card and then sell it without disclosure it is fraud and may rise to the level of criminal fraud. If you mailed it or used electronic communications it may also be mail fraud or wire fraud, both crimes. Besides, is the metric so low in this hobby that criminality is now the line we draw when assessing the actions of others?

+1, to this entire post.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Well, if you trim a card and then sell it without disclosure it is fraud and may rise to the level of criminal fraud. If you mailed it or used electronic communications it may also be mail fraud or wire fraud, both crimes. Besides, is the metric so low in this hobby that criminality is now the line we draw when assessing the actions of others?

It would appear as though the FBI disagrees with you though. They had all the evidence they could ever need to bring charges against these guys, and yet they chose not to. I don't buy the arguments that it was just too difficult to prove or that it failed on some technicality.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

It would appear as though the FBI disagrees with you though. They had all the evidence they could ever need to bring charges against these guys, and yet they chose not to. I don't buy the arguments that it was just too difficult to prove or that it failed on some technicality.

OK let's correct some basic errors here.

If there was no possible crime here they would not have investigated, over a several year period, in the first place. If there were no possible crimes here, Brent's first attorney would not have advised him to cooperate and make restitution. There are definitely possible crimes here namely mail fraud and wire fraud. The problem was not the legal framework but proving it beyond a reasonable doubt with admissible evidence. What evidence do you think they had? The Blowout stuff, great as it is, and powerful as it is in the court of public opinion, is not admissible evidence in a federal court. But we've been there done that on this discussion and I don't have the patience to do it yet again.

And if you don't think the fact that a card is altered is material, such that nondisclosure is fraud, ask yourself, why doesn't anyone in the hobby ever disclose it? As they say in the law, the thing speaks for itself.

Can you imagine a listing by PWCC -- PSA 8 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson, trimmed by Gary M. PSA 9 1952 Bowman Stan Musial, recolored. 1986 Fleer Michael Jordan PSA 10, broken out of an 8 holder and corners filed. 1915 Cracker Jack Honus Wagner, PSA 7, whitened.

By the way, the FBI does not bring charges, they investigate crimes. The U.S. Attorney brings charges, or decides not to.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Well, if you trim a card and then sell it without disclosure it is fraud and may rise to the level of criminal fraud. If you mailed it or used electronic communications it may also be mail fraud or wire fraud, both crimes. Besides, is the metric so low in this hobby that criminality is now the line we draw when assessing the actions of others?

Bullshit…. Absolute bullshit. If the card was trimmed within accepted specifications the trimmer did zip wrong. He isn’t obligated to disclose anything to anyone.

Just because most card collectors are purists doesn’t mean trimmers should be purists. Fact is high end collectors aren’t purists because they damn well know it’s going on and continue to foolishly pay absurd prices for the trimmed cards.

That said…. I am a purist and dislike trimmed cards…..but when I buy a card if it measures correctly I’m good as long as something isn’t obvious.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

...If the card was trimmed within accepted specifications the trimmer did zip wrong. He isn’t obligated to disclose anything to anyone...

This is one of the most breathtakingly ignorant statements I've read on Net54 in the 10+ years I've been here.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Eric72

This is one of the most breathtakingly ignorant statements I've read on Net54 in the 10+ years I've been here.

Breathtaking….:eek…..….

Show me 1 criminal case where someone has been convicted of card trimming…..

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Breathtaking….:eek…..….

Show me 1 criminal case where someone has been convicted of card trimming…..

Read this very thread re Bill Mastro.

[Rhotchkiss]

Here is a general definition of criminal fraud (each state probably has its own variation).

Altering a card is not a crime. Submitting an altered card to a TPG is not a crime. But the submission is an attempt to have the TPG (unknowingly) conceal the alteration. Then, the alterer sells the card in the TPG flip, misrepresenting (via implication or directly in the sales pitch/language) that the card is authentic/unaltered bc it sits in the flip, and they do this with the intent of making financial gain. That is fraud and fraud is a crime. Facts

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Here is a general definition of criminal fraud (each state probably has its own variation).

Altering a card is not a crime. Submitting an altered card to a TPG is not a crime. But the submission is an attempt to have the TPG (unknowingly) conceal the alteration. Then, the alterer sells the card in the TPG flip, misrepresenting (via implication or directly in the sales pitch/language) that the card is authentic/unaltered bc it sits in the flip, and they do this with the intent of making financial gain. That is fraud and fraud is a crime. Facts

Not that any of us needed that….but ok…..

Let’s come at this from another angle.

Guy pulls a 52’ Mantle out of a pack in 1952…. Hates Mantle so it sits in a box until he dies in 1992. It passes to his son that loved Mantle. He sees it’s oversized and uses his own expertise gained in another field to trim it to the equivalent of a PSA 10 and it’s still slightly oversized. The son dies in 2022 and his son gets the card and sends it to PSA completely unaware of what his father did to his grandfathers Mantle. It comes back a PSA 10.

Since no one knows…. Is it still a PSA 10?

If a tree falls in the woods does it make a sound?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Here is a general definition of criminal fraud (each state probably has its own variation).

Altering a card is not a crime. Submitting an altered card to a TPG is not a crime. But the submission is an attempt to have the TPG (unknowingly) conceal the alteration. Then, the alterer sells the card in the TPG flip, misrepresenting (via implication or directly in the sales pitch/language) that the card is authentic/unaltered bc it sits in the flip, and they do this with the intent of making financial gain. That is fraud and fraud is a crime. Facts

What if the seller openly admits the graded card is altered? Would it then be a crime since it was disclosed?

I collect weird stuff and have bought and sold more than one counterfeit card in a PSA slab. When selling(one to a fellow member) I disclosed I believed the card to be counterfeit. I have also done this with a altered card in a SGC slab with a number grade. I disclosed the alteration and that sale was also to a fellow member.

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Read this very thread re Bill Mastro.

Ok…Please show me where Mr Mastro was convicted of card trimming. Was there a plea bargain? Trial? It was explicitly for trimming a card that he trimmed and sold for profit?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nwobhm

Ok…Please show me where Mr Mastro was convicted of card trimming. Was there a plea bargain? Trial? It was explicitly for trimming a card that he trimmed and sold for profit?

If you read the thread you would see there was a plea bargain. I'm not doing your reading for you. Pathetic. First one guy in the face of all the evidence says he still doesn't believe it, now another guy refuses to even read. This is absurd, I am not wasting any more effort here.