So who was better ( Kaline or Clemente) ?

[packs]

Those OPS+ numbers are nice and do jump out at you but he played 102 games in 1968 and 106 games in 1972. His counting stars aren’t great in those years though he did continue to walk like a beast.

I just don’t think you could call him elite. But when I look at Clemente in the same time period I see the same player he was in his prime.

That’s all I’m trying to say.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Those OPS+ numbers are nice and do jump out at you but he played 102 games in 1968 and 106 games in 1972. His counting stars aren’t great in those years though he did continue to walk like a beast.

I just don’t think you could call him elite. But when I look at Clemente in the same time period I see the same player he was in his prime.

That’s all I’m trying to say.

In 1970, Clemente played only 108 games. In 1972, he played 102.

Games Played, 1968-1972
Kaline: 603
Clemente: 612

I am failing to see the difference or why Kaline's 2 injury years should prevent him from "elite", while Clemente is not given the same treatment for the exact same thing.

My only strong opinion is that they should be held to the same standard.

[packs]

Good call on the games played didn’t look as close from afar.

I don’t always like WAR but to compare both for the same time period:

Kaline - 15.5 from 1968 to 1972
Clemente - 33.2 from 1968 to 1972

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Good call on the games played didn’t look as close from afar.

I don’t always like WAR but to compare both for the same time period:

Kaline - 15.5 from 1968 to 1972
Clemente - 33.2 from 1968 to 1972

If the argument is that Clemente was better 1968-1972, I would agree, though I'm not really a fan of WAR as the arbiter, it has a lot of value opinions in it I doubt everyone agrees with. Especially the defensive component, which is where a lot of this gap comes from.

Now run 1955-1959

[packs]

No don’t get me wrong I’m not diminishing Kaline. I was commenting on the idea that Clemente probably had a few more big seasons in him had he not died. I don’t feel like he was on the same path as Kaline. Though Clemente could have just as easily gotten hurt in 1973 and never been the same.

Anything can happen with what ifs.