T218 series breakdown and ad backs

[RCMcKenzie]

Tom, like Scott says, you have T219's. They are all boxers and are a set of 50. They have HLC, Miner's Extra, and Red Cross backs. Here's a T218 compared to a T219....

[btcarfagno]

Oops. My bad. They are Hassan backs. I have since read that there may be some that are part of series 2 but do not say "Series 2" on them? This is confusing.

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Oops. My bad. They are Hassan backs. I have since read that there may be some that are part of series 2 but do not say "Series 2" on them? This is confusing.

Here's a thread with more info on T218 backs. see post8 in the following thread... www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=260170

[enuffsenuff]

I have Frank Riley with Hassan back with no ref to series 2. It was issued by Factory 30. Perhaps the Factory number has a bearing on the back set details. In your explanation this card should have a series 2 back...

[DaveW]

Frank Riley is in Series 2.
All of the Series 2 cards come in 6 different backs:
- Mecca. Series 2 factory 30
- Mecca Series 2 factory 649
- Hassan Series 2 factory 30
- Hassan Series 2 factory 649
- Hassan no series. factory 30
- Tolstoi no series factory 30

So the Hassan cards from factory 30 are printed with both
Series 2 and no series, which makes this set a bit confusing

- Dave

[G1911]

If the card has a series 2 back, it is a series 2 card. Series 2 was issued with a Hassan Factory 30 back that doesn't feature the series byline as well, which is where basic set checklists get confused with the series. A series 2 card has 6 backs (Mecca 30/649, Hassan 30/649, Hassan 30 without series notation, Tolstoi).


Jack Johnson (Green) breaks all the rules - it was evidently released part way through Series 1 and continued in some Series 2 sheets. I've never seen or heard of a Tolstoi back. H.J. Handy was only released in series 1 with a Mecca back, presumably pulled to make way for Johnson. It is a SP. Johnson Green is the most common card in the set. I suspect his late addition was similar to the situation with his Turkey Red.


3 cards in series 1 have spelling variations on the back, all with Factory 649, 1 confirmed with 30, 1 I suspect with Factory 30, and the last a question mark. All are tough, but not equally so.


There are series title variations on the series 3 track cards - perhaps not every card exists with this on factory 30 and 649.


I know of two blank back cards extant as well.


I think 630-640 cards exist, with a few still question marks. I'm about 85% of the way through a total master set of every combination.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by scooter729

Hey Tom - sounds like your Honest Long Cut backs are likely T219s and not T218s. They use the same images but the T219s are narrower. There are no T218s with HLC backs.

Since we're discussing masters sets - T219 has 50 of the boxer fronts on a physically smaller side. A master set consists of 200 cards, each having 4 differentbacks.


Honest Long Cut, Black Text on back - about 60% of cards
Honest Long Cut, Green Text on back - about 30% of cards
Miners Extra - about 10% of cards
Red Cross - so rare they may as well be a rounding error


No one differentiates between the two HLC backs, it seems. Miners Extra don't sell for very much either, though they are tough cards. I still need 6 to finish my set

[DaveW]

3 cards in series 1 have spelling variations on the back, all with factory 649, 1 confirmed with 30, 1 i suspect with factory 30, and the last a question mark.

B4264A9E-66CD-4E26-871F-8FA9BF06D592.jpg

Maybe 2 confirmed now?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by DaveW

Attachment 363171

Maybe 2 confirmed now?

That would be 2 confirmed, thank you for sharing it! If you ever want to sell it, I’ll overpay



Trudenbach exists with both factories and is the most common, though still tough.

I’ve heard of other F30 Gillis, but this is the first photo I’ve seen. His 649 is a tougher than Trudenbach

The 3rd is Cloughan/Cloughen. I have it with Factory 649 and have never seen a copy I don’t own, though there must be some out there. Have not seen with a F30, and nobody seems to have publicly noted its existence before 2017.


It seems to me that the three corrections were probably made at 3 different times early in the print run, OR the the sheet had double/triple/etc. prints of Trudenbach and Gilles if they were all corrected at once. They appear to have been printed in rows with the same card repeating down the row on the sheet

[scooter729]

I have multiple copies of each of the spelling errors - I can confirm factory numbers on them when I get home later tonight.

[DaveW]

G1911,
Thanks, if you’re really interested in overpaying, PM me an offer and I’m sure we can work something out.
I agree with your earlier comment that there are 630-640 cards in the master set. My checklist says there are 628 confirmed, 5 or 6 more that probably exist and 4 more that could exist but I doubt do. Most of the unknown ones are in the Series 3 track and field guys. If you would like a copy of my spreadsheet, just let me know.
- Dave

[G1911]

Originally Posted by DaveW

G1911,
Thanks, if you’re really interested in overpaying, PM me an offer and I’m sure we can work something out.
I agree with your earlier comment that there are 630-640 cards in the master set. My checklist says there are 628 confirmed, 5 or 6 more that probably exist and 4 more that could exist but I doubt do. Most of the unknown ones are in the Series 3 track and field guys. If you would like a copy of my spreadsheet, just let me know.
- Dave

PM'd on the Gillis + spreadsheet sharing!

[G1911]

Originally Posted by scooter729

I have multiple copies of each of the spelling errors - I can confirm factory numbers on them when I get home later tonight.

I'd love to see them! I'll post scans of all Saturday when I get back to their physical locations, but I have:

Trudebnach, Factory 649 - 5 copies
Trudenbach, Factory 30 - 1 copy
Gillis, Factory 649 - 1 copy
Cloughan, Factory 649 - 3 copies


My cards are not a good representation of the population - Gillis F649 is underrepresented, and Cloughan is very much overrepresented as I've purchased every Cloughan I've seen since I found my first one in 2006. Trudenbach appears to be much more common, though still rare, and I got the extra 4 copies of his F649 for almost nothing. Just never paid the premium for the Gillis F649 error when I've seen extras so far.

[scooter729]

Originally Posted by G1911

I'd love to see them! I'll post scans of all Saturday when I get back to their physical locations, but I have:

Trudebnach, Factory 649 - 5 copies
Trudenbach, Factory 30 - 1 copy
Gillis, Factory 649 - 1 copy
Cloughan, Factory 649 - 3 copies


My cards are not a good representation of the population - Gillis F649 is underrepresented, and Cloughan is very much overrepresented as I've purchased every Cloughan I've seen since I found my first one in 2006. Trudenbach appears to be much more common, though still rare, and I got the extra 4 copies of his F649 for almost nothing. Just never paid the premium for the Gillis F649 error when I've seen extras so far.

Here's my contribution of errors I could find quickly - thought I had a couple more but will have to check more thoroughly later. The Trudenbachs are one of each factory.

Note that the Gillis is a Factory 30 - different than the 649 that you noted.

Now, let the overpaying begin!!

[G1911]

Originally Posted by scooter729

Here's my contribution of errors I could find quickly - thought I had a couple more but will have to check more thoroughly later. The Trudenbachs are one of each factory.

Note that the Gillis is a Factory 30 - different than the 649 that you noted.

Now, let the overpaying begin!!

Thank you for sharing your cards! I've gone from being unable to find a photo of Gillis F30 to confirm its existence to seeing 2 here in 24 hours. I'll send you a PM about the overpaying lol

A Cloughan Factory 30 error is now, I believe, the last card from Series 1 that could possibly exist but has not been proven

[G1911]

Here's what I have.

The 3 Cloughan's are all factory 649. Trudenbach below Gillis is a F30, the other 4 are Factory 649's. I have another Trudenbach in a SGC 50 holder that's in my 'slabs to break' box. Gillis is underrepresented, Cloughan over.

[DaveW]

Greg and Scott,
There’s somebody on EBay now putting these error cards together and selling them for ridiculous amounts. He has one auction with the 2 Trudenbach errors (factory 30 and 649) and a common non-error one all for just $800 BIN.
He also has a Gillis lot (both error cards if you want to see another factory 30)
and a non-error Gilles card for only $3000 BIN!
If he ever finds out about the Cloughan card, he’ll probably want to sell those for $10k.
Wow! You guys could be rich!
-Dave

[G1911]

Originally Posted by DaveW

Greg and Scott,
There’s somebody on EBay now putting these error cards together and selling them for ridiculous amounts. He has one auction with the 2 Trudenbach errors (factory 30 and 649) and a common non-error one all for just $800 BIN.
He also has a Gillis lot (both error cards if you want to see another factory 30)
and a non-error Gilles card for only $3000 BIN!
If he ever finds out about the Cloughan card, he’ll probably want to sell those for $10k.
Wow! You guys could be rich!
-Dave

Pretty funny listings, I've paid over $20 only twice for any of these. $1,500 a Gillis (PSA 1 and 1.5 too!)...

[scooter729]

Originally Posted by DaveW

Greg and Scott,
There’s somebody on EBay now putting these error cards together and selling them for ridiculous amounts. He has one auction with the 2 Trudenbach errors (factory 30 and 649) and a common non-error one all for just $800 BIN.
He also has a Gillis lot (both error cards if you want to see another factory 30)
and a non-error Gilles card for only $3000 BIN!
If he ever finds out about the Cloughan card, he’ll probably want to sell those for $10k.
Wow! You guys could be rich!
-Dave

I saw those listings as well. I thought I'd have fun and emailed the guy and told him there's a Cloughan error as well that he can sell for even more than the Gillis. He must be out searching every corner of the globe as we speak!

[scooter729]

Originally Posted by G1911

Here's what I have.

The 3 Cloughan's are all factory 649. Trudenbach below Gillis is a F30, the other 4 are Factory 649's. I have another Trudenbach in a SGC 50 holder that's in my 'slabs to break' box. Gillis is underrepresented, Cloughan over.

I bet that Trudenbach SGC 50 of yours was one that I sold on eBay for $10 before I realized that was the error. (Sticker residue on the back of the slab?) At the time, I had like 4 of the errors and only 1-2 correct versions, and flipped in my head which was the tougher error version. It might not be $800 but it's more than $10 for sure at least!

[G1911]

Originally Posted by scooter729

I bet that Trudenbach SGC 50 of yours was one that I sold on eBay for $10 before I realized that was the error. (Sticker residue on the back of the slab?) At the time, I had like 4 of the errors and only 1-2 correct versions, and flipped in my head which was the tougher error version. It might not be $800 but it's more than $10 for sure at least!

It is definitely the same card, that residue on the slab back is pretty strong. I’ve gone over $10 for Trudenbach only once. Cloughans were $1, $3.50 and $35 (listed correctly on eBay). Gillis F649 was in a large lot for $1 a card

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by G1911

Jack Johnson (Green) breaks all the rules - it was evidently released part way through Series 1 and continued in some Series 2 sheets. I've never seen or heard of a Tolstoi back.

Nor have I. My guess is that it has something to do with the front-facing (blue) card which is available as a Tolstoi.

Speaking of sheets, I wish there was an intact one to review. I am curious how these cards were arrayed, especially given this:



Clearly the same card printed in a line.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Nor have I. My guess is that it has something to do with the front-facing (blue) card which is available as a Tolstoi.

Speaking of sheets, I wish there was an intact one to review. I am curious how these cards were arrayed, especially given this:



Clearly the same card printed in a line.

Johnson (Green) is also missing the Mecca, No Series notation, Factory 30 card and the Hassann, Series 2 notation, Factory 30 card.

It is known with, from series 1:
Mecca, Factory 649 (presumably the first one printed, with an error on the back not present on the others)
Hassan, Factory 30
Hassan, Factory 649

And from series 2:
Mecca, Series 2, Factory 30
Mecca, Series 2, Factory 649
Hassan, no series notation, Factory 30 (differentiated from the first series print run because the image is reversed in the second series cards)
Hassan, Series 2, Factory 649

I suspect the Johnson Green was printed on it's own sheet, as its late addition in Series 1 does not seem to have replaced any card or created any shortage (If Johnson replaced Handy, as is often said, then one of the cards or both should be notably tougher with a Mecca 649 back. This is not the case), and it was clearly missing from several back runs. Would explain why this card breaks all the rules without creating double/short prints.

The only other rule breakers in the first two series are H.J. Handy not existing with either series 1 Hassan back and Jack Johnson (Blue) may or may not exist with a Hassan, no series notation, Factory 30 back.



The larger format cards are usually not miscut enough to see what the adjacent card is side-to-side; I've been looking them for them here, in T29, T30, T118, etc. sized sets from the ATC/American Lithography that share this size format. I have a side-to-side T68 showing two different cards next to each other, but T68's are a bit different size. Perhaps, unlike the smaller size cards that repeated an image in a column (though not all the way down the column), it was rows that repeated a card for part if its length? I've thought the 9 C52 cards from T218 Series 2 that were printed with C52's run of first series T218 cards with duplicate numbers may have constituted a T218/C52 sheet and give us a clue as to how many cards unique cards actually appeared on a sheet. The possible No-Prints of some of the Series 3 track guys with the caption variation might be a clue to into the Series 3 sheet layouts

[RCMcKenzie]

I found these 2 Trudenbach's while searching through some stacks today looking for the unknown cards for G1's other thread. Mecca f30 and f649...

[G1911]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I found these 2 Trudenbach's while searching through some stacks today looking for the unknown cards for G1's other thread. Mecca f30 and f649...

Very cool to go digging and find both versions even!

[RCMcKenzie]

Yeah, thanks, I bought a shoebox collection of track cards hoping to find some Tolstoi cards. I only glanced at the backs and set them aside to look at later. There were about 7 regular Trubenbachs in the group.

Here are 2 new Tolstoi. I'm up to at least 14 now. I have more boxes to look through...

[Exhibitman]

I love stumbling across Tolstois.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Yeah, thanks, I bought a shoebox collection of track cards hoping to find some Tolstoi cards. I only glanced at the backs and set them aside to look at later. There were about 7 regular Trubenbachs in the group.

Here are 2 new Tolstoi. I'm up to at least 14 now. I have more boxes to look through...

Sounds like one nice shoebox! The Tolstoi's are slowly driving me crazy. I have 19 in hand and a 20th, the Jack Johnson, sitting in my mailbox waiting for me to get back home. Note the Jeffries with the deep red bleed, just like the one you posted earlier in this thread. Jeffries seems to be commonly found with this defect

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

.

[Marslife]

scored a super nice Tolstoi Shepard!

i have a few more to go :-(

TTYL!

Cliff



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[scooter729]

I thought the $61 price tag on a Cloughan error PSA 3 tonight on eBay was interesting. There were really only two bidders over $13, but a stronger price than I was expecting to see. I did have a $30 snipe on the card which never got triggered.

Anyone else here bidding on that one? Thoughts on the $61 final price? Maybe a few more people learning about this card?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by scooter729

I thought the $61 price tag on a Cloughan error PSA 3 tonight on eBay was interesting. There were really only two bidders over $13, but a stronger price than I was expecting to see. I did have a $30 snipe on the card which never got triggered.

Anyone else here bidding on that one? Thoughts on the $61 final price? Maybe a few more people learning about this card?

I was the underbidder, I thought you might have been the winner lol. I figured posting about it would cause the price to go up a little, but I'm honestly surprised I lost this time. I've bid several hundred % of the second highest bids on the last few T218 errors. I figure this price is probably more of an anomaly; someone else just really wanted one. The market for these still seems to be incredibly thin.


EDIT: Just for frame of reference, I bought a Cloughan on eBay last year for a bid of $32.11. This is the only time, I believe, that the card has transacted publicly in a listing that correctly identified the error. I doubled my bid on this one, but someone else did too. The next one or two might go a bit high as well, but I don't think it will last. The market is very thin for these, with a handful of master set collectors and variation fans that might really care. If I hadn't placed my "overpay" bid, it would have sold for half of what it did. Sorry for driving the price up, to whoever won


EDIT 2: Just for tracking, attaching the card image of the PSA 3 that just sold. I believe all the known examples are now posted in this thread: the 3 copies I own and showed, the 2 Scooter729 has and posted, and now this one. This makes a known population of 6 cards so far, all with 649 backs. Would love to see any others you folks may have or know about. I didn't see a second copy until over a decade after acquiring the first one, and now 3 have appeared for public sale in the last 3 years, 2 of which were not identified as a variation by the seller. Interesting how the cycles work with availability.

[scooter729]

I'm guessing the population on this card is much higher than the 6 we know about - and if PSA ever started grading the slabs with the variations on these three errors, you'd see a lot more come out of the woodwork. And I would expect the prices to jump then, probably $100+ on Gillis and Cloughan (Trudenbach seems more common).

But for now though, it'll remain a niche item for us T218 master guys....

[DaveW]

Originally Posted by scooter729

I thought the $61 price tag on a Cloughan error PSA 3 tonight on eBay was interesting. There were really only two bidders over $13, but a stronger price than I was expecting to see. I did have a $30 snipe on the card which never got triggered.

Anyone else here bidding on that one? Thoughts on the $61 final price? Maybe a few more people learning about this card?

I was about to bid $35 on this when the price shot up to $61. I don’t need one that badly. Maybe the buyer is the guy that’s trying to sell the Gillis cards for $3000. This would be a real bargain for him. I guess we’ll know when it gets listed for $5000.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by DaveW

I was about to bid $35 on this when the price shot up to $61. I don’t need one that badly. Maybe the buyer is the guy that’s trying to sell the Gillis cards for $3000. This would be a real bargain for him. I guess we’ll know when it gets listed for $5000.

Only $5,000? lol.

Scooter - I sure hope PSA doesn't start grading them and the registry guys involved, I'd like to be able to keep picking these variations up cheap.

[G1911]

Since this thread has kind of become the hub for T218 discussion, I'll post some of my other oddities, rarities and info here. One of the more interesting cards is a T218 M.J. McGrath with a recurring print defect/variation depending on how you define things.

When I bought the first one, I thought it was a one of a kind card, not a printing variation, but just the result of someone at the factory handling a still wet sheet before it dried. Then I found a second card, both with the same back (Mecca, Factory 30). I now think there was probably some dust/dirt/debris/something else obscuring part of the printing plate, resulting in the smudge look. I'd think there are probably several more out there, but have never seen besides the two I have. I'd love to know if any of you have this variant, or another card with the same issue.

There's a lot of oddities shared in this thread: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=251642

[Marslife]

Hey Fellas!

won the T218 lot in Sterling auctions, came in today. I did a quick run thru and found the Trubenback Mecca Factory 30 Error :-)


unfortunately no Tolstois.... but hopefully some other commons I need to fill some holes in the master quest once i can go thru them...

TTYL!

Cliff

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[DaveW]

I’ve bought 2 lots recently and buried in each was a Gillis factory 30 error card and also a Trudenbach error card. Maybe these aren’t as tough as we thought! Or maybe I’m just really lucky.

27512F7A-6E4B-490B-81C5-95ED96F7CEEE.jpg

[G1911]

Always funny how things pop up and disappear with time. Took me many years to even get images of the Fact. 30's, and then this year they seem to be just littered everywhere like commons. I have also added another Trudenbach Mecca 30 as well as a third Cloughan Mecca 649 to my collection since my last pic in this thread.

I'll still buy any of your guys extra's! Lol

[Marslife]

Hey Fellas!

scored a few more T218z for the master set. Noted I have 4 different Flanagans, from three different factories, and all have the same Blue Crop Marks in the lower right and lower left corners!

check it out:

DSCF0010.jpg

DSCF0011.jpg

DSCF0012.jpg

TTYL!

Cliff

[Bill77]

I checked my Flanagan and it has the same marks, just not as easy to spot, and I found 3 other cards with similar marks.

[G1911]

These printers marks are present on, I think, every card in the first series, certainly every vertically oriented one. The horizontal images have them closer to the center of the card sometimes. The exact placement varies slightly, and the clarity of the marks varies heavily from card to card, with some being difficult to even spot and other times clear as day.

[G1911]

Documenting another Cloughan, that sold for $43.56 in January. I believe this makes 7 identified Cloughan's. Factory 649 again, leaving the master set at 630 cards. I still think the 3 series 1 spelling errors were all probably corrected at different times in the print run. Cloughan very early, Gillis soon after that, and Trudenbach significantly later, though still early in the overall printing as it is a small minority of his cards.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1910-T218-M...72.m2749.l2649

[DaveW]

Here’s another one that I bought on EBay just a few weeks before that one was listed. It went unnoticed so I got it for less than $4.
Another factory 649. Still looking for a factory 30.

E614EB60-7B7B-4343-AE2C-AA1000B26180.jpg

[G1911]

$4 is a heck of a deal! That makes 8 I am aware of. Who knows how many are out there. Each one would make it seem more likely that the error carried over into the very first print run of the factory 30 backs like Gillis/Gilles. Kind of hope it doesn't exist so that I can maybe finish the master one day, if it exists it's one tough card.

[DaveW]

Well, now we know it does exist! I assume one of you guys bought it. Congrats!


172A545F-BDD1-41F5-B55E-53397034095D.jpg

[G1911]

It should be in the mail on the way to me. I was hoping you wouldn’t notice so I could get away with it cheap instead . There are 10 factory 649’s I’ve seen or have been posted here or emailed/texted to me (I don’t want to call that “known”, but it’s something of a count to compare relatively at least…).

Johnson Green Hassan Series 2 notation factory 30 is confirmed recently as well by another member. My master checklist of confirmed cards is at 632, of which I have 618 in hand to ‘prove beyond doubt’ + this one. I think this Cloughan was the last card I had at a fairly high percentage chance it could exist but was up unconfirmed, but what the heck do I know?

I’ll email you my latest checklist sheet, it’s been awhile sir.

[DaveW]

I figured it was you Greg! Shoot me the list of cards you need and if I have any I’ll let you have them since I’m not going for the master set. Congrats on being so close to having the master set - I doubt that anybody has ever done it before (with the 6 error cards).
Thanks for the confirmation of the green Johnson H2 f30 card. I thought that it must exist as well as the M1 f30. If you have a scan of it I would love to see it too. Thanks!

[G1911]

Sent you another probably too lengthy email sir, with the latest from my end I’ve seen and a picture of the recent Johnson card. It ain’t real until someone can produce a photo!

These large sets with little pre-existing proper research make the hardest part of the master just checklisting it. “How do we know when we’re done?” is more than rhetorical. It’s also 90% of the fun, personally. If 632 isn’t the magic number, we can’t be more than a few cards off at this point. So close…

Once I figure out a good way to scan and sort the bulk commons efficiently I’d like to put together a visual checklist with the direct evidence of each possible card.

[scooter729]

I was watching that as well - it sat at $10 until the final day and I figured it would jump, but wasn't quite expecting that much!

Glad it went to you, Greg - one step closer!