Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by swarmee

They were hamstrung by the May 31 Set Registry Deadline that passed yesterday. I expect them to be more forthcoming now that they can put that registry year to bed. If they had decertified all the flips tied to Moser one day before the deadline, they would have irreparably harmed their customers and brand.
I completely understand them taking time to make a measured response, when that time was so critical to their Set Registry. Just the timing of these revelations came at the wrong time of the year.

PSA will never make a public announcement that any of the cards featured in Blowout are welcome to be sent back for refunds. They can't afford to. And they're by any measure a historically dishonest company. I've heard a hundred stories in which they've fought to the death before honoring their guarantee. They need to be sued and publicly humiliated/destroyed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

PSA will never make a public announcement that any of the cards featured in Blowout are welcome to be sent back for refunds. They can't afford to. And they're by any measure a historically dishonest company. I've heard a hundred stories in which they've fought to the death before honoring their guarantee. They need to be sued and publicly humiliated/destroyed.

Class action!!! RICO!!!

[swarmee]

Again, if they refuse to, a class action suit can be filed by all the owners of these cards (in absentia). It's not like the lawyers know who all the asbestos victims are in advance.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Again, if they refuse to, a class action suit can be filed by all the owners of these cards (in absentia). It's not like the lawyers know who all the asbestos victims are in advance.

If only we had a Class Actions lawyer who was willing to Stepin it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

If only we had a Class Actions lawyer who was willing to Stepin it.

You're killing me. I already broke one rib laughing. I will spare the forum my thoughts on whether the Rule 23 requirements could be met in such a suit.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You're killing me. I already broke one rib laughing. I will spare the forum my thoughts on whether the Rule 23 requirements could be met in such a suit.

Pfft. If Rule 23 doesn't work, try Rule 24. Try all the damn rules. You're a lawyer.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Pfft. If Rule 23 doesn't work, try Rule 24. Try all the damn rules. You're a lawyer.

If I do that I might end up at Rule 11.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If I do that I might end up at Rule 11.

PSA won’t dare. Can you imagine the publicity hit they’d take if they tried to dismiss such a suit without rectifying their incompetence? Plus you’d become not only a well-reasoned lawyer (congrats) but also one who does more to fight hobby fraud than 99% of the rest of us.

[Leon]

It is truly inspiring to see those with such lofty moral values posting on the merits of morality and criminality. And such well reasoned responses when they don't text.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

PSA won’t dare. Can you imagine the publicity hit they’d take if they tried to dismiss such a suit without rectifying their incompetence? Plus you’d become not only a well-reasoned lawyer (congrats) but also one who does more to fight hobby fraud than 99% of the rest of us.

That would be elite company.

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You're killing me. I already broke one rib laughing. I will spare the forum my thoughts on whether the Rule 23 requirements could be met in such a suit.

C'mon Peter. When you tease a topic like that you might as well just give us the story on the Rule 23 requirements. By the way, I will join the class. I don't know if I have any doctored cards, but chances are pretty good since I have over 500 PSA cards in my registry.

Tony

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by Leon

It is truly inspiring to see those with such lofty moral values posting on the merits of morality and criminality. And such well reasoned responses when they don't text.

Who are you talking about, Leon?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Bram99

Who are you talking about, Leon?

They know who they are.

[mattbojo]

One of the cards from the list is currently being resold via PWCC:

40927085 1909-11 T206 Hughie Jennings BOTH HANDS, AMERICAN BEAUTY PSA 6.5 EXMT+ (PWCC) 7/8/2018 352392001729

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T20...h&LH_Auction=1


Anybody here have the ability to find out who one the below auction:

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1340023



Matt Bojorquez

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by mattbojo

One of the cards from the list is currently being resold via PWCC:

40927085 1909-11 T206 Hughie Jennings BOTH HANDS, AMERICAN BEAUTY PSA 6.5 EXMT+ (PWCC) 7/8/2018 352392001729

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T20...h&LH_Auction=1


Anybody here have the ability to find out who one the below auction:

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1340023



Matt Bojorquez

Wait for it.....


Wait for it.....

whitman111

[Rhotchkiss]

Hey Matt, can you post a link that proves the T206 Jennings AB 460 has been altered? Once confirmed, I think we should all email PWCC individually, stating that the card is altered and also start a thread on the main board. Let’s see how PWCC handles the info and the many requests.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Hey Matt, can you post a link that proves the T206 Jennings AB 460 has been altered? Once confirmed, I think we should all email PWCC individually, stating that the card is altered and also start a thread on the main board. Let’s see how PWCC handles the info and the many requests.

Hopefully better than the "conserved" 52T Mantle.

[swarmee]

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...ard-collection

Well, this thread didn't last long on the PSA board. Here's a capture in case the thread goes poof.

Based on recent news, are you dumping your graded card collection?
SpinFadeSplash23SpinFadeSplash23 Posts: 795 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 10:52AM in Trading Cards & Memorabilia Forum
With all the recent news, what does your crystal ball say for impact in 3-5 years?

Part of me feels the hobby is strong enough to learn, recover and move forward with this being an educational moment.

Another part of me feels that if the FBI gets involved and they uncover the worst case scenario, it can decimate the entire grading industry.

Getting ahead of the curve and dumping now, then moving into another area (BBCE boxes, CGC comics, etc.) might be a shrewd move, but it could save 10s of thousands in the long run.

How will you be managing your collection?

Based on recent news, are you dumping your graded card collection? 16 votes
Yes, dumping my graded cards and getting out forever. This will change the industry forever.
6% 1 vote
No, it is short-term issue and will actually make the hobby stronger.
43% 7 votes
Yes, dumping graded cards and moving into other areas of collecting, such as comic, sealed boxes, etc.
6% 1 vote
Who cares - it is just a hobby! Stop being paranoid!
43% 7 votes
Joe

"Ever loved someone so much, you would do anything for them? Make that someone yourself and do whatever the hell you want."
DBesse27DBesse27 Posts: 287 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 10:59AM edited June 1, 2019 10:59AM
None of the poll choices fit me. I thought briefly about dumping, I’m not, but not because I believe either that it’s short term or that it’ll strengthen the hobby.

Yaz Master Set
#1 Gino Cappelletti master set
#1 John Hannah master set

Also collecting:
1964 & 68 Venezuelan Topps
1974 Topps Red Sox
Andre Tippett

doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 793 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 11:09AM edited June 1, 2019 11:13AM
I would never give up the hobby I love because of this situation. Card collecting is more than just a hobby, it's a lifestyle. Nothing could ever make me stop collecting, except maybe my wife holding a pair of pliers, but outside of that, nothing will ever keep me from enjoying this hobby.

Dpeck100Dpeck100 Posts: 10,032 ✭✭✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 11:20AM
None of the poll choices fit me so no vote.

Answer to question hell no. Got lots of cards on deck ready to grade.

SdubSdub Posts: 707 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 11:20AM
If your just figuring out now that hucksters have been doctoring cards for centuries, then you should stay out of this great hobby. Be aware of what your buying and the risks involved, and admit to yourself that there are lots of slabbed vintage cards in all grades that have been "conserved" from ALL the TPG's. And most importantly, if you can't afford to have your slabbed card lose half it's value or more, then put your money somewhere else. Just my two cents.

Collecting PSA 9's from 1970-1977. Raw 9's from 72-77. Raw 10's from '78-'83.
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
SpinFadeSplash23SpinFadeSplash23 Posts: 795 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 11:50AM
Some of these reactions are eye opening. Thanks for posting.

Joe

"Ever loved someone so much, you would do anything for them? Make that someone yourself and do whatever the hell you want."
erikthredderikthredd Posts: 3,445 ✭✭✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 11:55AM edited June 1, 2019 11:58AM
Most of my graded collection is from subbing my own raw cards that I spent hours upon hours comparing and searching thru ebay listings until I found the right card that I would be happy with regardless of what grade PSA eventually gives it. I don't grade often but when I do it's mostly just to get those handpicked cards slabbed & preserved. I have no plans to stop collecting entirely because of what's been going on but I can understand where many people are unhappy with everything and don't blame them for losing faith in that market while deciding to get out now.

Eric

sportscardtheorysportscardtheory Posts: 1,781 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 11:57AM edited June 1, 2019 11:59AM
This is an atrocious poll. The options are just stupid. No option for me. I won't be buying anymore PSA or BGS graded cards because their process is clearly the antithesis of what they claim to do, ie it's a complete failure of mission statement. I'll dump a lot of my graded stuff and keep some PC stuff for regrading when there is a trustworthy TPG option.

tradingcardcommunity on reddit - CLICK HERE, JOIN AND POST!]
1970s1970s Posts: 2,350 ✭✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:04PM
Got out of graded cards years ago because of all the uncut sheets that flooded the market through the mastronet auctions. I knew many of those would find their way into holders, and they did. But I do still collect graded, but not as much as I used to. Much smaller now. But when I do buy graded cards, I look for properly sized cards in scans, and cards that are not 1/16th inch smaller. There are MANY beautiful, unaltered cards resting in PSA 9 and 10 holders that are absolute beauties. You just have to know which ones are good, and which ones aren't. Just think of how many beautiful 1952 Topps cards are in PSA 9 holders that came from the Mr. Mint Massachusettes find. There are many MINT vending and wax beauties resting in holders today that are absolutely 100% good. Just keep your eye out for the short cards in holders. TPG has not done a good enough job with this.

ahopkinsahopkins Posts: 663 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:08PM
It's just a hobby. I collect cards to get away from stress, not to incur it.

Andy

CommemKingCommemKing Posts: 2,058 ✭✭✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:18PM
Did I miss something? I haven't heard any troubling news. Post me a link or something please.

Johnson Early Commemorative Collection (Retired)

Johnson Early Commemorative Collection II

perkdogperkdog Posts: 18,440 ✭✭✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:19PM
I stopped buying graded cards a while ago, it had a lot to do with being able to enjoy my cards more in raw form and not stressing about resale value. Inconsistent grading didn’t help matters much either, regardless of what comes of this new “Epidemic” I think the hobby will drive on

hyperchipper09hyperchipper09 Posts: 1,073 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:23PM
Nope. Collector only. Though I am a bit disappointed, though not shocked, by what appears to be systemic collusion between a few parties in pursuit of the almighty dollar while also conning buyers and collectors. But that happens anytime big bills are involved.

sportscardtheorysportscardtheory Posts: 1,781 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:38PM edited June 1, 2019 12:39PM
@ahopkins said:
It's just a hobby. I collect cards to get away from stress, not to incur it.

You and those like you are exactly who these criminals prey upon. You empower them.

tradingcardcommunity on reddit - CLICK HERE, JOIN AND POST!]
doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 793 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:39PM
You wouldn't know there's any trouble. I just lost an auction on Ebay for a PSA Joe Louis card. We fought like animals at the end for it. I got stomped.

nam812nam812 Posts: 9,344 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:55PM
This is a silly poll that assumes everyone knows what "news" you re talking about.

My 1910 Champions T218 set at 100% with a GPA of 5.047, and all 153 cards are scanned.
ahopkinsahopkins Posts: 663 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 1:05PM
@sportscardtheory said:

show previous quotes
You and those like you are exactly who these criminals prey upon. You empower them.

I'm going to take the high road on this one. Thanks for your insightful evaluation.

Andy

AFLfanAFLfan Posts: 229 mod June 1, 2019 1:07PM
This one is already heading down a path I don't care for, so I am going to wrap it up here.

Todd Tobias
PSA Employee & Grateful Collector
I focus on autographed American Football League sets, Fleer & Topps, 1960-1969, and vintage lacrosse cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

LOL I am surprised it's still up there too.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Hey Matt, can you post a link that proves the T206 Jennings AB 460 has been altered? Once confirmed, I think we should all email PWCC individually, stating that the card is altered and also start a thread on the main board. Let’s see how PWCC handles the info and the many requests.

Looks as if a brown spot under the right armpit has been removed. I just emailed PWCC that I believe the card has been altered and used to sit in a psa 4.5 care. I encourage others to do the same

[mattbojo]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Hey Matt, can you post a link that proves the T206 Jennings AB 460 has been altered? Once confirmed, I think we should all email PWCC individually, stating that the card is altered and also start a thread on the main board. Let’s see how PWCC handles the info and the many requests.

Pretty card for the grade. Shows like an EX+ example with a light vertical back crease downgrading. Part of an impressive run of ever popular T206 White Borders on the auction block. In total well over 500 examples are displayed, which represents the majority of an entire set. One of nearly 20,000 cards, lots, and sets up for bid in our 7th Auction of 2016. Click on the link above to view the other PWCC auction lots.


See the second sentence from the PWCC desciption of the PSA 4 Jennings above. Now see the current description of the PSA 6.5:

Marvelous T206 American Beauty Jennings on the market this month. This card is beautifully preserved with smooth edges, outstanding centering and four sharp corners. Boasts fantastic surfaces with bright color and gorgeous clarity. The single finest example in existence. Deserving of serious attention. One of over 17,000 cards, lots, and sets up for bid in our 6th Auction of 2019. Click on the link above to view the other PWCC auction lots.

Thread: Cross posting list of potentially bad cards Reply to Thread

[Peter_Spaeth]

The list, by the way, is going to be updated soon I have heard, with 20+ new subs.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The list, by the way, is going to be updated soon I have heard, with 20+ new subs.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=74

Check your cert numbers.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=74

Check your cert numbers.

WOW!!! There are a ton of T206s on that list including cheap lower grade cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=74

Check your cert numbers.

Lucked out again. Whew. HUUUUUUGE list. Keep in mind all of these are not necessarily bad, just in same subs as ones that have been identified.

If you have bought expensive cards from PWCC you really need to review this list if you care.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Lucked out again. Whew. HUUUUUUGE list. Keep in mind all of these are not necessarily bad, just in same subs as ones that have been identified.

If you have bought expensive cards from PWCC you really need to review this list if you care.

I believe that should read. If you bought cards from PWCC.

[Kenny Cole]

Yeah. I lucked out too. WOW.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Yeah. I lucked out too. WOW.

Virtual high five.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Lucked out again. Whew. HUUUUUUGE list. Keep in mind all of these are not necessarily bad, just in same subs as ones that have been identified.

If you have bought expensive cards from PWCC you really need to review this list if you care.

Oh, ****. I have a card on that list. It is an expensive card to me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

mispost

[1880nonsports]

low grade and lower value N28's submitted and graded
followed on a later sub by:

27898967 1888 N28 Allen & Ginter Mike 'King' Kelly PSA 4 VGEX (PWCC)
27898968 1888 N28 Allen & Ginter Mike King Kelly PSA 5.5 EX+ (PWCC)
27898969 1888 N28 Allen & Ginter Charles Comiskey PSA 5 EX (PWCC)
27898970 1888 N28 Allen & Ginter John Clarkson PSA 4.5 VGEX+ (PWCC)
27898971 1888 N28 Allen & Ginter Cap Anson PSA 4 VGEX (PWCC)
27898972 1888 N28 Allen & Ginter Cap Anson PSA 4 VGEX (PWCC)
27898973 1888 N28 Allen & Ginter John Clarkson PSA 6 EXMT (PWCC
27898974 1888 N28 Allen & Ginter Miss Annie Oakley RIFLE SHOOTER PSA 7 NRMT (PWCC)

testing first?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Same card?

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Same card?

Looks like another match.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Same card?

I honestly don't know? My Old Tom has two visible spots to the right of his head. The card you showed don't seem to have them, but I admit that I suck at being able to spot the stuff that the investigators over on Blowout can find.

Edit: I see another poster had agreed with you. You may indeed be correct.

[Bored5000]

Even before I pulled out my card to look at the cert. number, my heart sank as soon as a I saw Old Tom Morris's name listed. I "knew" the cert numbers were going to match.

I paid $757 for that card. It is the second most expensive card I own. Most of my cards are in the $300-500 range.

Nearly my entire collection are non-sports cards or cards outside the big four sports. I wasn't naive enough to think that fraud only occurs in five- or six-figure cards or big four sports cards. But it does suck that even relatively inexpensive cards outside the mainstream were targeted.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Looks like another match.

The patch in the right border looked the same but I am no forensic expert.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

Even before I pulled out my card to look at the cert. number, my heart sank as soon as a I saw Old Tom Morris's name listed. I "knew" the cert numbers were going to match.

I paid $757 for that card. It is the second most expensive card I own. Most of my cards are in the $300-500 range.

Nearly my entire collection are non-sports cards or cards outside the big four sports. I wasn't naive enough to think that fraud only occurs in five- or six-figure cards or big four sports cards. But it does suck that even relatively inexpensive cards outside the mainstream were targeted.

Demand a return and when he refuses, post it here.

[mattbojo]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Lucked out again. Whew. HUUUUUUGE list. Keep in mind all of these are not necessarily bad, just in same subs as ones that have been identified.

If you have bought expensive cards from PWCC you really need to review this list if you care.

A card from this list is currently up for auction on ebay by PWCC:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T20...8&LH_Auction=1


Anybody able to find a back scan of this card?: I found it, just had to click the right arrow

https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...ed-background/


Matt Bojorquez

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The patch in the right border looked the same but I am no forensic expert.

I see what you are referring to now. I am not a VCP member right now (I have been a member in 30-day increments in the past). Could you tell me what that card sold for as a PSA 2 and when was that?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I see what you are referring to now. I am not a VCP member right now (I have been a member in 30-day increments in the past). Could you tell me what that card sold for as a PSA 2 and when was that?

7/28/16 eBay Image pwcc_auctions w***1 30 $406.00

Gary Moser bought it originally.

[bounce]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The patch in the right border looked the same but I am no forensic expert.

The PSA 2 was sold to w***1 - that's the Moser code

Sorry to say it, but I think it's a match. The right border is one of a couple things I see that makes me believe it's the same card.

HOWEVER - I don't think it's been trimmed. The corners are still rounded, borders don't seem any shorter to me. I do think it's been cleaned, but possible that's all.

If it were me, I'd keep this one.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bounce

The PSA 2 was sold to w***1 - that's the Moser code

Sorry to say it, but I think it's a match. The right border is one of a couple things I see that makes me believe it's the same card.

HOWEVER - I don't think it's been trimmed. The corners are still rounded, borders don't seem any shorter to me. I do think it's been cleaned, but possible that's all.

If it were me, I'd keep this one.

I would check Brent's description on the original sale could have had wrinkles too that were pressed out, but agree on no trimming. You can find it on his site I believe.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

7/28/16 eBay Image pwcc_auctions w***1 30 $406.00

Gary Moser bought it originally.

Thank you.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

LOL
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2416

Originally Posted by calvindog

Jesus. The Generalissimo had some haircut.

We need to be careful in this, IMHO.

Here are scans of another 1952 Topps Look-N-See Chiang, with the same/similar markings as the two linked to above.





Additionally, on the card linked to from the Blowout Forum, the right edge is also different. The first one has a diamond-cut right edge, and the second one does not. That would mean that if they were the same card (and I am not convinced they are), the right edge was also trimmed.

Steve

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2442

[perezfan]

THAT one really demonstrates PSA's lack of skill (or something else fishy...)

Not that the hundreds of others we've seen don't demonstrate the same thing on an equal or lesser level. Where/when/how will this end?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

THAT one really demonstrates PSA's lack of skill (or something else fishy...)

Not that the hundreds of others we've seen don't demonstrate the same thing on an equal or lesser level. Where/when/how will this end?

I think it's genuinely a fluid situation right now and we don't know. The cynic in me says the people spending the big money keep right on glibly spending it, maybe a couple of players face some criminal and or civil liability, and the train gets back on track and rolls on. As my new signature says...

[kateighty]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You're killing me. I already broke one rib laughing. I will spare the forum my thoughts on whether the Rule 23 requirements could be met in such a suit.

I had a similar reaction. I'll leave it at that!

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Steve D

We need to be careful in this, IMHO.

Here are scans of another 1952 Topps Look-N-See Chiang, with the same/similar markings as the two linked to above.





Additionally, on the card linked to from the Blowout Forum, the right edge is also different. The first one has a diamond-cut right edge, and the second one does not. That would mean that if they were the same card (and I am not convinced they are), the right edge was also trimmed.

Steve

Yeah, that one isn't as convincing as most of the others.
I'd need better scans, but I believe the registration is different. And the 7 seems to have marks on the right side above the globes that the 9 doesn't have. (could be recolored, but then why not do the ones at the top? )

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2442

Gunk removal to me is a really gray area. I've done it once where it worked out, and once where it didn't - T206 I bought because it looked great but had a LOT of greasy soot on the back. Which wasn't really coming off without going way beyond what seemed "right"

It does seem to say a lot that PSA "missed" paper loss on a 6