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#751
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I don't have a dog in this fight, but I think demand will suffer a lot more than supply. I don't believe collectors will trust graders to get it right and I think prices will weaken/crater. I would love to be wrong since I think this will be bad for the hobby, but that is what I believe.
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#752
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Is the LOTG Doyle Batting one of the t206's that the sleuths on this thread have found the un-signed version of the same card?
What makes everyone think PSA is correct that it is a forgery? What if Al removes a legit card from the hobby? |
#753
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Didnt psa authenticated a trimmed wagner, which Mastro admitted to trimming The t206 market wasn't affected and that is the top card in the set, arguably the hobby. It was swept under the rug in a matter of months. I'm betting there are multiple more trimmed cards in holders than forged autos. Is this that much worse?
This should bring even more scrutiny to signed cards, help collectors to do their own diligence, and will boost psa fees and probably prices in the long run.
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"Trolling Ebay right now" © Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors Last edited by Republicaninmass; 12-06-2018 at 08:30 PM. |
#754
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Quote:
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Galleries and Articles about T206 Player Autographs www.SignedT206.com www.instagram.com/signedT206/ @SignedT206 |
#755
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And no, it’s from 2013, which predates the current activities which are the subject of this thread.
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Galleries and Articles about T206 Player Autographs www.SignedT206.com www.instagram.com/signedT206/ @SignedT206 Last edited by T206Collector; 12-06-2018 at 08:34 PM. |
#756
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Quote:
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#757
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Quote:
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#758
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Quote:
I once had an authenticator tell me about an item, "since I'm only rendering an opinion, I'm not saying this is not authentic...I'm just basically saying that I don't feel comfortable enough with it to put it in our holder." In light of what has unfolded, I can see why PSA would be wise to now quickly become "uncomfortable" with it. |
#760
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I still don’t really know where this all will sit with me as time goes on.
But, consider that the Mastro Wagner is still encased in the PSA holder it was given nearly 30 years ago, while a $900 Doyle auto that may very well be legit is viewed as too risky to keep in the PSA holder it was placed into 5 years ago. By all means, PSA can change its mind, but a little consistency would be appreciated.
__________________
Galleries and Articles about T206 Player Autographs www.SignedT206.com www.instagram.com/signedT206/ @SignedT206 |
#761
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i'd much rather a grading company evaluate the signature itself instead of when it was previously slabbed or what "find" a card might be from.
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#762
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I will tell you that one thing I have definitely learned thus far is to preserve the provenance. For years, once the TPA put the signed card in the case, the value of provenance was significantly diminished. The card once entombed was supposedly forever authentic just because a TPA said so. Who needs the letter enclosing the card from Fred Snodgrass when that happens? Auction houses have been separating letters from cards, and throwing the envelopes into even another lot because the player wrote his last name in the return address.
The 2018 Spring Steiner Auction had four signed T206 cards in it from a wonderfully large through the mail collection. Steiner broke the entire collection up and failed to share the evidence of where the cards were obtained, by whom, and how. Did you know, for example, that the baseball address list that the collector used to find his ballplayers was also included deep in the auction, as just a random, soulless vintage baseball player address list? http://auction.steinersports.com/lot-104975.aspx There was space for a “description” like “This is how our consignor of hundreds of TTM autographs found his players” but instead it was left appallingly blank. I spent several hours today combing through two different Steiner Auctions to piece back together the fabric and soul of this collection, which by the way happened to include four signed T206 cards. I’ll post more about it when I complete my research.
__________________
Galleries and Articles about T206 Player Autographs www.SignedT206.com www.instagram.com/signedT206/ @SignedT206 Last edited by T206Collector; 12-06-2018 at 09:05 PM. |
#763
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The definition of provenance is “a record of ownership of a work of art or an antique, used as a guide to authenticity or quality.” I’d argue that judging the signature entirely out of context will lead to more mistakes than fewer.
__________________
Galleries and Articles about T206 Player Autographs www.SignedT206.com www.instagram.com/signedT206/ @SignedT206 |
#764
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Paul's post brings up the "many 52 topps" in the market. 2 enormous finds were sold after the last few years. One find of about 500 sold though LOTG, and another few hundred from long time collector Hugh Critz. There were more than a handful of ttm and auto seekers in the 50s, many I've had the pleasure of meeting on this board and in my pursuit of a signed 1952 set. Provenance is, or should be, a big part of authentication.
__________________
"Trolling Ebay right now" © Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors |
#765
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It's probably been mentioned already but one consequence may be TPGs become gun shy and decline to authenticate lots of real autos.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#766
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and i'd argue that placing too much importance on when a "signed" card was purchased and/or surfaced will end with a collection containing numerous forgeries.
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#767
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that is also my concern. Will they now become so conservative that items will fail or be deemed inconclusive. This could also affect auction houses as will they now wind up rejecting more submissions? I think more scrutiny is better in the long run. Hopefully things will fall into a place where getting it right becomes more important that getting more submissions.
__________________
My signed 1934 Goudey set(in progress). https://flic.kr/s/aHsjFuyogy Other interests/sets/collectibles. https://www.flickr.com/photos/96571220@N08/albums My for sale or trade photobucket album https://flic.kr/s/aHsk7c1SRL |
#768
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Ots already happened at PSA worh the additional of Corcoran and Keating. Its been very tough getting cards passed. I'd think the addition of people at SGC would straighten things out.
__________________
"Trolling Ebay right now" © Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors Last edited by Republicaninmass; 12-06-2018 at 09:12 PM. |
#769
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Why? What is the connection between provenance and forgeries? A false sense of security?
__________________
Galleries and Articles about T206 Player Autographs www.SignedT206.com www.instagram.com/signedT206/ @SignedT206 |
#770
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I think provenance is one factor to consider. It's no different than any other factor like pen type, slant, pressure, etc, etc. No one factor universally trumps others especially when considering giving opinions. No TPA or anyone can guarantee that any auto is real, outside of witnessing situations. We all should consider all factors before giving that opinion.
__________________
My signed 1934 Goudey set(in progress). https://flic.kr/s/aHsjFuyogy Other interests/sets/collectibles. https://www.flickr.com/photos/96571220@N08/albums My for sale or trade photobucket album https://flic.kr/s/aHsk7c1SRL Last edited by Lordstan; 12-06-2018 at 09:11 PM. |
#771
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Personally, I’d much rather be buying potentially authentic raw signed T206 cards from an old time collection for $250 like it was 2007 again, than dropping $6,000 on a never before heard of signed T206 of Billy Sullivan encapsulated by any of the TPAs without any context about where it came from. I’ve done both, and I can tell you which one feels better over time!
__________________
Galleries and Articles about T206 Player Autographs www.SignedT206.com www.instagram.com/signedT206/ @SignedT206 Last edited by T206Collector; 12-06-2018 at 09:16 PM. |
#772
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__________________
My signed 1934 Goudey set(in progress). https://flic.kr/s/aHsjFuyogy Other interests/sets/collectibles. https://www.flickr.com/photos/96571220@N08/albums My for sale or trade photobucket album https://flic.kr/s/aHsk7c1SRL |
#773
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Quote:
__________________
Galleries and Articles about T206 Player Autographs www.SignedT206.com www.instagram.com/signedT206/ @SignedT206 |
#774
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Reminds me of the one time I did by an autograph 25 years ago. It came with a cert. The index card was signed "Robert Clemente", the description in the cert said the card was signed "Best Wishes, Robert Clemente". I called the seller and they said, "no problem, I'll have our auto guy draw up a new cert for you". I returned the card.
__________________
My wantlist http://www.oldbaseball.com/wantlists...tag=bdonaldson Member of OBC (Old Baseball Cards), the longest running on-line collecting club www.oldbaseball.com |
#775
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At least he didn’t say “no problem, I’ll have our auto guy add the ‘Best Wishes’ for you.”
__________________
For information on baseball-related cigarette and tobacco packs, visit www.baseballandtobacco.com. |
#776
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Oh man, you just made me spit up my cereal and milk all over the keyboard. LOL
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#777
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Quote:
I recently saved a random recently signed 52 Topps card just to see if I could find it unsigned somewhere prior but when I went into Worthpoint, there were 23 pgs of this players card so I went no further as I viewed it as a daunting task and without having any dog in the fight myself, a huge time killer. I have also wondered, since joining this site, even if a signed card was purchased 20, 30, 40 years ago, how does one know, without provenance, if that signature is real? I have also always wondered, if the player had passed on prior to those years, what do TPAs use as their basis for comparison? In my opinion, if the TPA's don't have/own something that acts as a certified template with undeniable provenance, then how can they 100% guarantee the sig is legit? I think the only way of going forward from now on, and only if the test can be 100% guaranteed, carbon dating or something similar will now have to be used in order to bring some trust back into the hobby? Just my thoughts anyway. EDIT: To add further to my thoughts above. Being as thousands and thousands of players have played, say, in just over the last century in all kinds of sports such as baseball, hockey, football and basketball, to name just 4, and you're out at a flea market, for example, and you come across a common, unheard of, forgotten about player's signed card. You purchase said signed card and you send it in to be authenticated. Please tell me what TPAs would use to authenticate the sig is 100% legit? Thinking further, even if we had carbon dating and it was proved the ink was of at least as old as the card, who's to say the sig wasn't signed back then by some kid or adult that was just goofing around playing with their card? I agree 100%! Without pain there can be no gain, and if this situation isn't torn down to the very bottom, then there will always be doubt within the hobby and that side of the hobby, imo, will be forever scarred.
__________________
52 Topps cards. https://www.flickr.com/photos/144160280@N05/ http://www.net54baseball.com/album.php?albumid=922 Last edited by irv; 12-07-2018 at 08:48 AM. |
#778
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Quote:
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As I posted earlier, if you are only comfortable with 100% certainty, you should not collect ANYTHING. There is fraud in every single collectible market.
__________________
My signed 1934 Goudey set(in progress). https://flic.kr/s/aHsjFuyogy Other interests/sets/collectibles. https://www.flickr.com/photos/96571220@N08/albums My for sale or trade photobucket album https://flic.kr/s/aHsk7c1SRL |
#779
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Quote:
"EDIT: To add further to my thoughts above. Being as thousands and thousands of players have played, say, in just over the last century in all kinds of sports such as baseball, hockey, football and basketball, to name just 4, and you're out at a flea market, for example, and you come across a common, unheard of, forgotten about player's signed card. You purchase said signed card and you send it in to be authenticated. Please tell me what TPAs would use to authenticate the sig is 100% legit? Thinking further, even if we had carbon dating and it was proved the ink was of at least as old as the card, who's to say the sig wasn't signed back then by some kid or adult that was just goofing around playing with their card?" I understand what you are saying but I honestly didn't realize there was so much blind faith/hope in the hobby, especially when large amounts of money are being laid down for said cards. But like me and my sole purchase of a signed 52 Topps card, seeing it in a certified slab was enough for me. This whole thread/situation has definitely been an eye opener for me even though I don't collect signed cards. Like I have said numerous times since I joined this site back in 2016, I had no idea, gave it no thought whatsoever, that fraud would be so prevalent in this hobby or that it even existed. Oh, how I have quickly learned!
__________________
52 Topps cards. https://www.flickr.com/photos/144160280@N05/ http://www.net54baseball.com/album.php?albumid=922 |
#780
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Oh the irony of this SGC article.
__________________
http://www.collectorfocus.com/collection/schneids |
#781
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Quote:
What does that say for all the other autos PSA authenticated at that time? Like Goudeys, Play Balls, '52 Topps, etc? That's a little unsettling that PSA admits that.
__________________
http://www.collectorfocus.com/collection/schneids |
#782
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When you think about it, no matter what they said would have been unsettling. If they had stood by it despite proof that it's fake (which would not be unprecedented a la Gretzky Wagner), if they admitted they blew it (then how many others did they blow?), or, the easiest route which they seem to taken.... blame it on guys that are no longer there and spin it as "we are continually working to make our team stronger."
__________________
Items for sale or trade here UPDATED 3-16-18 Last edited by conor912; 12-07-2018 at 10:58 AM. |
#783
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I see this a little differently. The reality is that any authenticator can only give their opinion of the item at the time they have it. They gave their opinion based upon what they see now. They are allowed to disagree with previous employees, current employees, or even change their mind. This is what an opinion is. Nothing more nothing less. The people in 2013 gave their opinion. The people now gave theirs. We should be glad that the people doing it now are giving us their honest opinion and not just restating what the previous employees did.
__________________
My signed 1934 Goudey set(in progress). https://flic.kr/s/aHsjFuyogy Other interests/sets/collectibles. https://www.flickr.com/photos/96571220@N08/albums My for sale or trade photobucket album https://flic.kr/s/aHsk7c1SRL |
#784
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Quote:
What having a TPA did was make cards and autos commodities that required no expertise to buy and sell. In the old days, G-VG-Ex-ExMt-Mt could mean widely different things to people. Having a TPA was supposed to make all cards graded a 5 be in roughly the same condition. The likelihood is that card commerce on the internet has been greatly helped by the fact that people don't feel the need to inspect cards as closely before sale when they are slabbed as X grade. We know this does not always work and that is why so many people keep repeating the saying "buy the card, not the holder." IMO, If all anyone ever looks at, is the slab or cert, it increases the likelihood they can be fooled based on that slab or cert. If you use the TPA opinion as one of MULTIPLE pieces of evidence, this would then have the possibility of increasing your safety margin. More data = opportunity to make a better decision. Now, we still might make an incorrect evaluation, but having more data points allows for higher probability of getting it right.
__________________
My signed 1934 Goudey set(in progress). https://flic.kr/s/aHsjFuyogy Other interests/sets/collectibles. https://www.flickr.com/photos/96571220@N08/albums My for sale or trade photobucket album https://flic.kr/s/aHsk7c1SRL |
#785
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Where did this info come from about the Witherspoon books? Someone mentioned this on the autograph side last month, but I went back to the store and checked all of her signed books, I think they still had 5 of them and every single one had different characteristics. They were clearly not autopenned.
__________________
Looking for Nebraska Indians memorabilia, photos and postcards |
#786
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Amazon
Interesting on this guys Amazon account... I went back to the earliest feedback (9-24-2008) - He was selling autographs back then and was getting some Negative "FAKE Auto" feedbacks even then...
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#787
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Quote:
I will agree regretably that it seems like far too many collectors today do trust TPG's like PSA almost as the word of God. It's only when something really obvious like this comes out which is immediately controversial that some actually stop and think about the nature of a grade being an "opinion" and nothing beyond that. I will also agree that for me personally, reputable TPG's are useful services for buying cards online / that I cannot physically inspect in my hands as if I were in a shop or at a show first. But beyond that - say what you will about collecting a few decades back. Even as kids - we were taught how to grade, what the subtle differences in condition were - why X card was NM and Y card was only EX...etc. etc. Now who today is really more of an expert - the graders at PSA who we cannot seem to get any information on in terms of their qualifications? Or hobbyists who have collected for decades on end and in some cases have literally had their hands on hundreds of thousands of cards? I digress a bit as I don't collect autos and I'm sure there is another whole realm of TPA controversy over the evolution of the practice there...
__________________
Postwar stars & HOF'ers. Prewar, Bowman & Topps Cubs team endeavors. Last edited by jchcollins; 12-07-2018 at 01:59 PM. |
#788
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Quote:
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#789
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TPA opinions
When I used to set up at shows with (my friend) Kevin Keating, the well-known TPAs would frequently bring items over to solicit his opinion of them, and conversely on occasion he would want to know what they thought about pieces. If memory serves correctly, when the autograph side of PSA was first organized 20 years ago, it was a team effort whereby a number of their authenticators would "vote" on submissions to determine whether they got a pass or not. The fact that different authenticators might have different opinions about some autographs shouldn't be surprising to anyone. And it seems to me the fact that the current team at PSA would have the honesty and institutional freedom to reverse a prior authentication of their company should be applauded. What more could you ask of them? As for such divergent opnions on resubmitted items calling into question all opinions rendered by the prior authenticators, anyone is free to resubmit items they think might get a different opinion today.
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#790
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#791
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A TPG renders an opinion. I don't think you can fault someone for their opinion on a given day when they assessed the authenticity of an item. It's the hobby that tries to twist TPG opinions into fact. I don't think the companies owe anyone anything if something they authenticated is later determined to be forged. It's the seller and AH that need to make things right. The TPG didn't benefit from the sale and they gave the submitter exactly what they paid for: an opinion.
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#792
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No, I don't think there will be a lot of that!
Last edited by Hankphenom; 12-07-2018 at 03:42 PM. |
#793
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+1
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#794
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Quote:
TPAs are useful independent opinions (It's wrong to say they're useless), but they are only one piece in the puzzle. Sellers and collectors should be using them as second opinions, not as the only opinions. I think most people on Net54 know and do this, but clearly not everyone in and all segments of the hobby do. Last edited by drcy; 12-07-2018 at 04:15 PM. |
#795
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My post that you quoted had the link to blowout showing autopen. It wasn't every copy, but seemed to be all the ones signed "X - Reese"
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
#796
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Thanks. Doesn’t look good. Looks like she started out by signing some of them, then got bored enough to use the auto pen. Last year B&N pulled all of their Brian Wilson books before Black Friday because they learned they were autopenned.
__________________
Looking for Nebraska Indians memorabilia, photos and postcards |
#797
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Just want to throw in my two cents regarding something I keep seeing repeated over and over - carbon dating is not applicable to ink.
For one, the amount of scientific uncertainty is too great to distinguish between decades, let alone years. We run many samples at work (I'm an archaeologist) and results are generally +/- hundreds of years. And second -- and perhaps most importantly -- carbon dating only applies to (formerly) living beings that took in carbon from the atmosphere. Now, chemical analysis ("forensic analysis") can be performed on ink, as some people have alluded to. A mass spectrometer or x-ray fluorescence can be used to analyse the ink, but this does not date the ink. Instead, it determines the chemical makeup which can be directly compared to another sample. So, while useful in comparing 2 samples, it would have little practical use for authenticating a signature unless the composition of ink has varied significantly over the years. Someone had mentioned that this method would be destructive -- not necessarily. Sorry, a bit off-topic but thought folks may find this interesting. Sadly the "forensic" future for autograph authentication looks grim. If anything, I feel like a good old fashioned microscope may be off some use to see how the ink interacts with the paper. I would imagine that ink that's been on paper for 100 years would look differently and react with the paper base differently than ink that's been applied a few months ago. Interesting topic to think over, especially in light of these recent developments. Great detective work to everyone involved. I have no dog in the fight with the T206s (thought did consider bidding on a few recently), but am hoping my 33 Goudey collection is unscathed. |
#798
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#799
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Awesome information Corey
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#800
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I told you weeks ago that a lot of the Witherspoon were autopenned and also some of the fields. But you blew me off like I had no idea what a autopen signature looks like. |
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