T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia

[atx840]

Unfortunately not this year Ted, but I am really hoping for the next one in Chicago.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



... Sweet Caporal ..... Sovereign .......... Piedmont____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards__American Beauty ... Sovereign .......... UZIT ..........



This thread will provide references to major contributions posted on Net54 these past 12 years that have formed a better understanding of "The Monster" [as Bill Heitman
so aptly coined his T206 book (circa 1980)].

POST #1......So, we'll start with the 2005-2006 publication of Scot Reader's Inside T206
An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series.

One of the early and very significant T206 threads was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ?
This thread sparked lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's. It included surveys; and, various aspects of the T206 series were explored.....resulting in 363
meaningful posts. Furthermore, between many of us Net54ers, it was "the start of of a beautiful friendship" (to quote Claude Raines to Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca).

In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start
in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set

Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle
"error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11


Subsequent posts in this thread will expand on theory's regarding the structure of the T206 series and the front/back permutations that have resulted. A fair number of the
theory's presented on Net54 (since 2006) have withstood the test of time. Providing accurate lists of which front/back combos were printed. And, which ones are No-Prints.

So, stay tuned......many more T206 "oldies but goodies" References and Reflections will be posted here.

And, feel free to contribute any meaningful T206 stories, or experiences collecting T206's that you have.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________

INDEX (updated)

Post #1......Introduction....plus Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, and 3 significant T206 threads (circa..2006-2007) for starters.


Click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted


Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints"

Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (apple green cards)

Post #5......350/460 series backs identified

Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards

Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery

Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection

Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded

Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) sub-set

Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back

Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb

Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection

Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series)

Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects

Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's

Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set

Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story

Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story

Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure

Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's !

Post #93.....T206 "Proofs"

Post #96.....UZIT checklist

Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins

Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911)

Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist

Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman

Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist

Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist

Posts #128 - 131.....Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ?

Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards

Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards

Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards

Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued)

Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards

Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards

Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint)

Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards

Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards

Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards

Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's

Posts #231 >> 234.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s)

Posts #242 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s)

Post #262.....T206 Southern League cards (re-visited)

Posts #263 >> 270.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's

Posts #271 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's

Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards

Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards

Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects......

Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist

Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005

Post #378.....Remembering Jantz Morey

Posts #379 >> 385.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #386 >> 402.....T206 printed sheet structure

Posts #405 >> 440.....Show us your BROAD LEAF 350 cards

Posts #441 >> 451.....Comparable printing patterns of the T206's and T205's

Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set

Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set

Posts #469 >> 470.....Guess the selling price of a COMPLETE SOVEREIGN set

Posts #471 >> 474.....Guess selling price of a near complete PIEDMONT set

Posts #476 >> 477.....Guess selling price of a complete SWEET CAP, F#30 set


In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors.
However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s).


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *





Searching all the way back to 2001 on Net54, you will find some interesting threads on acquisitions of "near complete" T206 sets. For example, check-out this one..... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=76778 .....What price this set was purchased for back in 2005 is anyone's guess.

Anyway, in 2004, I acquired a 521-card set which also included 32 different T206 backs. Condition of the cards were 80% Ex, 20% Vg-Ex, and the Magie was Vg.

So how much did I pay for this set in 2004 ? Hey guys, I leave it up to you to guess what I paid for this set ? ?

I will tell you the $$$$$ cost after I receive some guesses.


Here's the green Cobb from this set. The majority of the stars were in similar condition as this Cobb (but better centered). Most PIEDMONT 150 green Cobb's are off-center
as this one is.


.




Stay tuned for the sale price of a T206 "near complete" 521-card set in 1997.


TED Z
.

[brianp-beme]

Wild guess...$18,000

Brian

[Hellwig]

$25,000 just a guess

It’s amazing since I started collecting in Jan of 2017 to now.I use to be able to get nicely graded 3s for high 20s/low $30s with shipping now for the most part it’s 35/40 easy.

It’s disgusting to think what I could have been picking up 10 or 15 years ago instead of what I did.

[riggs336]

I'm gonna say $13,500.
I bought a mid-grade 520 set in 2008 for $16K plus 15% vig.

[RedsFan1941]

Originally Posted by tedzan

So how much did I pay for this set in 2004 ? Hey guys, I leave it up to you to guess what I paid for this set ? ?

I will tell you the $$$$$ cost after I receive some guesses.

....


Stay tuned for the sale price of a T206 "near complete" 521-card set in 1997.

2004 or 1997?

[tedzan]

I have not discussed the 1997 set yet. As I alluded to, it will be in a forthcoming post.

So, why you are asking.... " 2004 or 1997? "


TED Z
.

[fduran27]

Ted - I am going to say $9,503.34

[RedsFan1941]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I have not discussed the 1997 set yet. As I alluded to, it will be in a forthcoming post.

So, why you are asking.... " 2004 or 1997? "


TED Z
.

thanks guy

[Bpm0014]

I've been putting a raw PR-G-VG-EX T206 set together from 2008-present. Currently at 512. Cost me roughly $40,000 so far. I have all 4 Cobbs, the Demmit and O'Hara, 2 signed Larry Doyles, a NY Joe Doyle partial NY, all the Southern Leaguers, etc. The remaining 8 or so are all readily available. I would be willing to bet that if you started today, the cost would be $50,000+

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *





Brian....Rob....riggs336....Felipe....Brendan

I appreciate your responses and I will comment on them after I post this set here which I sold in 1997.


I started collecting T206 cards in 1981. And by the 1990's, I had put together a 521-card set. The overall grading of this set was Vg-Ex. The Demmitt and O'Hara were both Vg.
Also a Vg Magie, and it included 5 cards of Ty Cobb....green Cobb, Bat on, Bat off, red Cobb, and an Orange (red) Cobb.

So how much did I sell this set for in 1997 ? Once again, I leave it up to you to guess what this set sold for ? ?

I will reveal the $$$$$ amounts for my purchase in 2004 and this sale in 1997 in a subsequent post. Then we can compare our numbers here.



.



TED Z
.

[Bpm0014]

I will say you sold it for about $22,000

[Hellwig]

I was probably high in my last guess, so I’ll guess you sold this for $12,500 in 1997.

[KingFisk]

2004 - bought for $14,000
1997 - sold for $8,000

[brianp-beme]

1997 sold for $9,000 (I previously guessed 2004 purchase price of $18,000).

Brian

[tedzan]

Purchase price of my T206 set (521 cards) in 2004 guesses.....


Brian

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Wild guess...$18,000

Rob

Originally Posted by Hellwig

$25,000 just a guess

riggs

Originally Posted by riggs336

I'm gonna say $13,500.
I bought a mid-grade 520 set in 2008 for $16K plus 15% vig.

Felipe

Originally Posted by fduran27

Ted - I am going to say $9,503.34

Brendan

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

I would be willing to bet that if you started today, the cost would be $50,000+

Here is a sampling of some of some of the cards in this set......

..

. . . .

. . .



Thanks guys for participating in this game. And, I wish I would have acquired this set in 2004 for any of your guesstimates. This T206 set cost me quite a bit of $$$$$.....$40,000.
Anyhow, the consolation prize was getting the 32 different T-brands.



Stay tuned for the sale of the 1997 set.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Guesses on the SOLD price of my T206 set (521 cards) in 1997.....


Brendan

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

I will say you sold it for about $22,000

Rob

Originally Posted by Hellwig

I was probably high in my last guess, so I’ll guess you sold this for $12,500 in 1997.

Carl

Originally Posted by KingFisk

2004 - bought for $14,000
1997 - sold for $8,000

Brian

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

1997 sold for $9,000 (I previously guessed 2004 purchase price of $18,000).

Brian

Thanks guys for participating in this game. I like Brendan's guess. Unfortunately, I sold 520 cards from this set for $16,000. And, I sold the Magie separately for $2000.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *



These six are examples of some of my nicer SOVEREIGN cards


OK, let's play this game again.... If I were to sell my complete all-SOVEREIGN set (402 cards), what price would you guess it would sell for ?

This set's overall condition averages Vg-Ex, with some of the stars being Ex.....see examples shown above and below.

Exactly 122 subjects in the basic 524 card T206 set were NOT printed with SOVEREIGN backs (Wagner, Plank, Lundgren, Demmitt, O'Hara,
Magie, Joe Doyle error, the 48 Southern Leaguers, etc.)


.






TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


.
These six T206's are samples of some of my nicer SOVEREIGN cards


I consider that a true complete SOVEREIGN set includes the Six Super Prints **......with the Sovereign 460 backs. Thus, my Sovereign set is actually complete with 408 cards.

During the Sovereign press runs, American Litho (ALC) introduced an intermediate series into the T206 set....the 350/460 series. ALC selected 6 subjects from the 350 series;
and, printed them with Sovereign 460 backs during the press runs of the Sovereign 460-only series.

FYI.... that the Sovereign 460 versions of these 6 subjects are considerably tougher to find relative to the regular 46 subjects in the 460-only series.


So guys, try guessing the selling price of this set with 402 cards......or, with 408 cards ?
Trust me, these 6 super-prints (with the Sovereign 460 back) go for "Big $$$$". Especially the red Cobb, which appears to be much tougher than the other 5 cards.


Shown here are these Six Super Prints with their SOVERIGN 350 backs and their SOVEREIGN 460 backs......

.

. . . .


............






** Note.. Scot Reader's excellent research revealed that these 6 subjects were printed in larger quantities, and with more Tobacco brands than any of the other subjects
in the T206 set. In his book titled "Inside T206", Scot identifies these 6 guys as the " Super-Prints ".



TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *



Sample star cards in this PIEDMONT set...........


OK, so no one is interested in playing the "guessing game" with the SOVEREIGN set. I can understand that, as the SOVEREIGN set is complicated with all it's No-Prints.

So, how's about trying to guess what price my PIEDMONT set would sell for ? It's straight forward, as all 519 cards (includes MAGIE) in this set have PIEDMONT backs.
No Wagner, Plank, or Joe Doyle NY Nat'l. No Demmitt or O'Hara St Louis variations (printed only with POLAR BEAR backs). This set's condition ranges from Vg to Ex.

I look forward to your guesses....be reasonable with them

And, have a great time at the National this week......and, find some time to check-out the Rock-n-Roll Hall of Fame Museum near Lake Erie.





Sample star cards......
..

...



.

.







TED Z
.

[Bpm0014]

$50,000

[tedzan]

Hi Brendan

Sounds like a reasonable selling price. I like those numbers.

Thanks for posting your guess.


TED
.

[BLongley]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

$50,000

I'll go a bit higher... $63,000

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by BLongley

I'll go a bit higher... $63,000

Hi Brian

Your guess is quite reasonable.

Thanks for posting your guess.


TED
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *





Last, but not least......If I were to sell my "complete" SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set....what do you think it would sell for ?

Actually, a complete SC f#30 set comprises of 469 cards. The following lists the 55 subjects which were never issued with the SC f#30 back............
524 - [Joe Doyle Nat'L, Kleinow (Boston), Lundgren (Cubs), Magie, Smith (Chi & Bos), Demmitt & O'Hara (St Louis vars.), Southern Leaguers (48)] = 469

Now, I consider my set "complete" with 468 cards, because I will never have the Wagner card. The cards in this set range from Vg to Ex.

So, I look forward your guesses as to what I can expect if I sell this set ? ? Please be reasonable with your estimates


And, have a great National this week. I hope to see you all in Chicago next year.



. .


..


TED
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *






The majority of the cards in this SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set are in plastic pages in an album. Only about a dozen cards are graded. The cards in this
set range from Vg to Ex....and, of course the Eddie Plank card is graded an "A".

If I were to sell any of my T206 sets, this one would be the set I'd sell. So, come on guys, I'm waiting for some of your guesses on the selling price of this one.


Here's a page from the album displaying some of this set's stars. Followed by back scans of their respective Series......






TED Z
.

[Bpm0014]

$82,000

[tedzan]

WOW !

Brendan, that's some big $$$$$.

Very tempting to sell this set, if I was offered that amount.

Thanks for posting.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *




... Sweet Caporal ..... Sovereign ......... Piedmont ____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards______ UZIT .............. Sovereign ... American Beauty



This thread will provide references to major contributions posted on Net54 these past 14 years that have formed a better understanding of "The Monster" [as Bill Heitman
so aptly coined his T206 book (circa 1980)].

Let's start with the 2005-2006 publication of Scot Reader's Inside T206
An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series.

One of the early and very significant T206 threads was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ?
This thread sparked lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's. It included surveys; and, various aspects of the T206 series were explored.....resulting in 363
meaningful posts. Furthermore, between many of us Net54ers, it was "the start of of a beautiful friendship" (to quote Claude Raines to Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca).

In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start
in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set

Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle
"error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11


Subsequent posts in this thread will expand on theory's regarding the structure of the T206 series and the front/back permutations that have resulted. A fair number of the
theory's presented on Net54 (since 2006) have withstood the test of time. Providing accurate lists of which front/back combos were printed. And, which ones are No-Prints.

So, stay tuned......many more T206 "oldies but goodies" References and Reflections will be posted here.

And, feel free to contribute any meaningful T206 stories, or experiences collecting T206's that you have.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________

INDEX

Post #1......Introduction....plus Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, and 3 significant T206 threads (circa..2006) for starters.


Click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted


Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints"

Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (apple green cards)

Post #5......350/460 series backs identified

Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards

Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery

Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection

Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded

Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) sub-set

Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back

Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb

Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection

Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series)

Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects

Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's

Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set

Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story

Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story

Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure

Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's !

Post #93.....T206 "Proofs"

Post #96.....UZIT checklist

Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins

Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911)

Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist

Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman

Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist

Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist

Posts #128 - 131.....Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ?

Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards

Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards

Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards

Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued)

Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards

Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards

Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint)

Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards

Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards

Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards

Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's

Posts #231 >> 234.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s)

Posts #242 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s)

Post #262.....T206 Southern League cards (re-visited)

Posts #263 >> 270.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's

Posts #271 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's

Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards

Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards

Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects......

Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist

Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005

Post #378.....Remembering Jantz Morey

Posts #379 >> 385.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #386 >> 402.....T206 printed sheet structure

Posts #405 >> 440.....Show us your BROAD LEAF 350 cards

Posts #441 >> 450.....Comparable printing patterns in T205's

Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set

Posts #469 >> 470.....Guess the selling price of a COMPLETE SOVEREIGN set

Posts #471 >> 474.....Guess selling price of a near complete PIEDMONT set

Posts #476 >> 479.....Guess selling price of a complete SWEET CAP, F#30 set

Posts #481 >> 490.....Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds"


In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors.
However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s).


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *





For 38 years I've been collecting T206's, completing sets, and seeking out rare front/back combos. In this process, I've been quite fortunate in acquiring several T206 "finds".

Before I tell you of my stories....it would be interesting to hear of yours....show and/or tell us of your T206 "finds" ?


TED Z
.

[barrysloate]

Back about 25 years or so ago I bought a modest collection of what appeared to be an original T206 find- maybe it had 200-250 cards- and after I sat down to go through each card carefully discovered two Drum backs sitting adjacent to each other. In the eighties and nineties I bought many original collections, but this is the only one that ever had a Drum, much less two of them.

Ted- I think you bought one of them so I'm guessing you remember both cards. Sadly, I remember neither player.

[tedzan]

Hi Barry

I love reminiscing, I do remember the find you are referring to with the two DRUM's. Except, I think it was back in the late 1980's.

Anyhow, I was making great progress on my T206 T-brand collection. And, if I recall correctly, you bet me $100 that I would not acquire a
DRUM card within that year.

BINGO ! A few months after our bet, you picked-up this T206 collection. And, you were gracious enough to give me one of the DRUM cards.
And, here it is......





Furthermore, check this out....this DRUM card went from Barry >> Ted >> Barry (Arnold).



TED Z
.

[barrysloate]

I remembered the missing corner, but didn't know it was Moeller. Late 80's could be right, making it more like 30 years ago.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *






My most major T206 find was very timely. It occurred in early 2006 when I was putting together my all-PIEDMONT set. This find of approx. 400 assorted PIEDMONT cards
was from South Carolina. The owner of these cards got them from his Grandfather, who collected them in his youth from 1909 to mid 1910. This was evident to me, since
there were no PIEDMONT 350-460 series cards in this find. Included in this group were 29 - Southern League cards with OLD MILL backs.
Most of these cards (80 %) graded Vg-Ex. The other 20 % were Ex cards. There were 284 different cards in this group, of which I needed 192....expediting my progress in
completing this all-PIEDMONT set.

Here is a sample of the cards from this find which are still in my PIEDMONT set......

.



Barry's story is...."is the stuff that dreams are made of" (quote from Humphrey Bogart in the last scene in the movie "The Maltese Falcon".

So come on guys, I'm sure you have some interesting stories of your "finds" to share with us


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Gee, 24 hours have transpired since I posted my T206 "find" last nite, and I am quite surprised (or perhaps disappointed) that no one has posted their "finds" here.

Whatever, I will continue with another of my T206 "finds". During the 1980's I was lucky to pick-up several "finds" at the Willow Grove Show, all of which consisted
of BOWMAN and TOPPS cards. In the 1990's, I picked up two T-card "finds". A T205 collection of 144 cards. And a T206 collection comprising of 220 different cards.
The T206 collection was from a "walk-in" at the Cooperstown Show. My table was set-up at the entrance to the VFW Hall, and I made a generous offer to the owner
of these T206's. Then I told him to go around to the other dealers and get the best offer. About an hour (or so) later he returned to my table and we made the deal.

The cards varied from Vg to Ex. Some of the major stars in this collection were the red Cobb, all three Cy Young's, all three Matty's, Lajoie portrait, all four Tinker's,
all three Evers's, all three Chance's, all five Chase's, all three Willis's, and both Collins cards. Plus, 24 - Southern Leaguer's.


Once again......how about sharing with us here of your T206 "finds" in this glorious hobby.


TED Z
.

[dbrown]

Back in the early 1980s, I was a 12 or 13 year old and obsessed with cards. My dad got into the hunt, and he would place wanted ads in the local Bay Area penny savers. Had a number of really good finds, and of course it was cheap. Those were the days.

One night we went to visit an older teenager in Atherton or Palo Alto or nearby - fancy neighborhood, fancy house. According to him, his dad was Alan Rosen, and he would give him cards when he saw him. (Divorced.) The kid had a sense of the value of things but was still selling at reasonable prices. What I remember buying - this was a long time ago - was a 1969 Super Reggie Jackson (still a favorite card, it’s so pure) and all four T206 Cobbs, in a nice 4-window plexiglass screw-down holder. We paid him $225 for the four. The green one was a bit rough, some creasing in it, the other 3 were what we would have called excellent back then, or vg-ex+.

Should have kept them, of course. It took a couple years to sell them, finally got $700 or $750 for the four. I might take a run at the Monster if I had kept them.

David

[Rhotchkiss]

Ted, I wish I had a “find” story for you, but unfortunately most of my t206s were “found” at REA, Heritage, LOTG, Goodwin, Mile High, EBay, and I even found a few on Net54’s BST!!

My best acquisition story was getting a tip on a brown old mill, which ultimately led to me driving up to New Jersey with a bag of cash to meet Johnny V on his lunch break and doing a 5-figure deal in a parking lot - bought a great card and met an awesome T206er.

Another acquisition (and disposition and acquisition and disposition) story was getting ahold of a Solly Hofman Drum, which I later traded to Mike S. for his Chance Lenox, only to buy it back from Mike and then later sold back to Mike. In less than a year, Mr Hofman lived in NJ, MD, NJ, MD, and NJ where he currently resides.

[tedzan]

Hi David

Interesting story, thanks for posting it.

And yes, you should have kept the four T206 Cobb's.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Ted, I wish I had a “find” story for you, but unfortunately most of my t206s were “found” at REA, Heritage, LOTG, Goodwin, Mile High, EBay, and I even found a few on Net54’s BST!!

My best acquisition story was getting a tip on a brown old mill, which ultimately led to me driving up to New Jersey with a bag of cash to meet Johnny V on his lunch break and doing a 5-figure deal in a parking lot - bought a great card and met an awesome T206er.

Another acquisition (and disposition and acquisition and disposition) story was getting ahold of a Solly Hofman Drum, which I later traded to Mike S. for his Chance Lenox, only to buy it back from Mike and then later sold back to Mike. In less than a year, Mr Hofman lived in NJ, MD, NJ, MD, and NJ where he currently resides.

Nice going good buddy. And, Johnny V is one great guy.

You probably have all the various T206 backs by now ?

I gave you a nice deal on this one at the Philly Show.....


.



TED Z
.

[Rhotchkiss]

Hola Ted. I do have all the T206 backs, at this point just trying to upgrade. But my Red Hindu is an Evers yellow sky, I never owned that red hindu; but I look forward to getting a good a deal at the next philly show for sure!!!

[tedzan]

At that Philly Show there was a guy who resembled you, and I did sell the red HINDU Pfeffer to him.
Excuse me, I had a "senior moment"

Look forward to seeing you and talkin' T206's again next month at the Philly Show.


TED Z
.

[Rhotchkiss]

No worries! I have been mistaken for others before! Catch up soon.

[t206kid]

You sold me the Pfeffer Ted. Still love it

[tedzan]

Hey Jay

Don't mind me, at my age, you can expect a miscue (or two)

TED Z

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * T206 Reference....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * *


. .


In 2008, I acquired quite a number of T206's from an Antique dealer in Atlanta. These cards were from an original collection in a town nearby Atlanta. This collection was strictly
PIEDMONT cards; and, I was pleasantly surprised to find 7 of the "Elite 11" cards in this group.

Subsequently, another original collection of T206's was discovered in the Atlanta area by a friend of mine. And, this collection also included the "Elite 11" cards (6 or 7 of them).

And very recently, Turner reported of another T206 find consisting of the "Elite 11" cards. This marks the 4th discovery in the surrounding area of Atlanta of an original collection
of T206's that included these very rare PIEDMONT 350 cards.


Elite 11....plus Lundgren





Initially, I was fascinated by the Lundgren (Cubs) card which I discovered with a seldom seen PIEDMONT 350 back. I have been tracking these rare T206's since 2006.
In the process of putting together a PIEDMONT-only set, I discovered some more rare PIEDMONT 350 cards and this led me to post this thread.... check-it-out http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=87180 for more info. on the "Elite 11".

It appears that Factory #25 shipped PIEDMONT cigarette packs containing 1st print run PIEDMONT 350 cards to Georgia. I say this because some Joe Doyle Nat'l cards
have also been discovered in T206 collections originating in the nearby area of Atlanta, Georgia. The best example of this being Senator Richard Russell's original T206
collection. It's the first known source of the "Elite 11" cards. His set includes the Joe Doyle Nat'l card. Russell grew up in Winder, Georgia (nearby Atlanta). He collected
Tobacco cards as a teenager during 1909 - 1910.


Note
Although Lundgren was not printed with HINDU, SOVEREIGN, nor SWEET CAPORAL, this card is very similar to the "Elite 11" with respect to the initial 350 press runs
of PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG backs. Therefore, I have included Lundgren in with this group.


Hey guys,
I'm not the only guy on this forum who's been fortunate to acquire T206 "finds"....so, how's about sharing your "finds" with the rest of us.


TED Z
.

[Bpm0014]

Would love to hear about some finds!

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



.... Sweet Caporal .... Sovereign .......... Piedmont____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards__American Beauty ... Sovereign .......... UZIT



This thread will provide references to major contributions posted on Net54 these past 14 years that have formed a better understanding of "The Monster" [as Bill Heitman
so aptly coined his T206 book (circa 1980)].

Let's start with the 2005-2006 publication of Scot Reader's Inside T206
An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series.

One of the early and very significant T206 threads was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ?
This thread sparked lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's. It included surveys; and, various aspects of the T206 series were explored.....resulting in 363
meaningful posts. Furthermore, between many of us Net54ers, it was "the start of of a beautiful friendship" (to quote Claude Raines to Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca).

In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start
in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set

Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle
"error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11


Subsequent posts in this thread will expand on theory's regarding the structure of the T206 series and the front/back permutations that have resulted. A fair number of the
theory's presented on Net54 (since 2006) have withstood the test of time. Providing accurate lists of which front/back combos were printed. And, which ones are No-Prints.

So, stay tuned......many more T206 "oldies but goodies" References and Reflections will be posted here.

And, feel free to contribute any meaningful T206 stories, or experiences collecting T206's that you have.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________

INDEX

Post #1......Introduction....plus Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, and 3 significant T206 threads (circa..2006) for starters.


Click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted


Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints"

Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (apple green cards)

Post #5......350/460 series backs identified

Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards

Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery

Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection

Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded

Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) sub-set

Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back

Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb

Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection

Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series)

Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects

Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's

Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set

Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story

Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story

Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure

Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's !

Post #93.....T206 "Proofs"

Post #96.....UZIT checklist

Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins

Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911)

Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist

Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman

Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist

Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist

Posts #128 - 131.....Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ?

Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards

Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards

Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards

Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued)

Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards

Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards

Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint)

Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards

Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards

Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards

Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's

Posts #231 >> 234.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s)

Posts #242 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s)

Post #262.....T206 Southern League cards (re-visited)

Posts #263 >> 270.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's

Posts #271 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's

Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards

Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards

Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects......

Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist

Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005

Post #378.....Remembering Jantz Morey

Posts #379 >> 385.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #386 >> 402.....T206 printed sheet structure

Posts #405 >> 440.....Show us your BROAD LEAF 350 cards

Posts #441 >> 450.....Comparable printing patterns in T205's

Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set

Posts #469 >> 470.....Guess the selling price of a COMPLETE SOVEREIGN set

Posts #471 >> 474.....Guess selling price of a near complete PIEDMONT set

Posts #476 >> 479.....Guess selling price of a complete SWEET CAP, F#30 set

Posts #481 >> 514.....Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds"


In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors.
However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s).


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *





1st Tale......
My old-time friend, Ralph, discovered the Herzog UZIT in a collection he acquired (circa 1990's) in his hometown in the Great Smoky Mountain area of North Carolina.
He knew what kind of a "nut" I am about T206's with scarce backs, so we did a nice trade. But, he did not know how scarce this Herzog card was, until I subsequently
informed him that it was the only known Herzog with a UZIT back. So we arrived at an additional cash amount (to him) to complete the deal. As of this date, this card
remains unique.


2nd Tale...…
About two years ago, I acquired a T206 collection from an long-time collector who attended Philly area shows (circa 1970's). He had acquired a small T206 collection at
the Philly Show which included this McGraw / UZIT card.
The McGraw (glove) card is in the "Exclusive 12" group of the 460-only series. So far, only 5 of these 12 subjects have been found with the UZIT back. And each one of
these 5 subjects are unique T206 UZIT cards. This front / back combo is extremely scarce with the Exclusive 12 group.


T206's with the UZIT back were issued in the Spring of 1911. The UZIT and AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 cards were printed together at the tail-end of the T206 press runs.

It's my opinion that the UZIT back is 2nd to the BROAD LEAF 460 in terms of scarcity (normally printed T206 T-brands).


58 subjects with the UZIT back have been confirmed to date (Sept 7, 2018).

350/460 series...............................28 subjects

Berger
Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball-St Louis)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)

Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Doc White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)

I am 100% confident that the above list of 28 of the 350/460 subjects is complete (as it coincides with the confirmed list of AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 subjects for
the 350/460 series).


460-only series..............................30 subjects

Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Howie Camnitz (arms up)
Harry Camnitz (arms side)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap) **
Frill
Geyer **
Herzog (Boston)
Hummel **
Lake (ball-St Louis)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip) **
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)

Oldring (bat)
Overall (blue sky)
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Schulte (back view)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove) **
Tinker (bat on)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

** Exclusive 12


The 460-only series list is still a work in progress....I expect that as many as 16 more UZIT cards from this series will eventually be discovered.



TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Double post due to power failure.