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  #21  
Old 11-27-2017, 05:50 PM
packs packs is offline
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Originally Posted by OldOriole View Post
Gold glove awards are extremely subjective. Rafael Palmeiro won one in 1999 when he only played 28 games at first base and DH'ed the rest. Much like the MVP and All-Star voting, these results are often based on reputation and popularity rather than objective data.
Of course, but that's why I specifically chose Mattingly to demonstrate my point re: the stat. Mattingly is no Palmeiro. He was a first baseman of the highest quality and he has a negative dWAR. In fact I just checked and Mattingly's career fielding percentage is 11th all time. Casey Kotchman has the highest fielding percentage among all first basemen according to BR. His career percentage is 998. He has a dWAR of -0.6.

Last edited by packs; 11-27-2017 at 05:54 PM.
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  #22  
Old 11-27-2017, 06:43 PM
OldOriole OldOriole is offline
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I agree with you that dWar is far from perfect. However, I believe it is a much more accurate reflection of overall defense than fielding percentage. After all, other factors, such as range, are quite important. You can have a great fielding percentage but if you have the range of a fire hydrant it really weakens the fielding percentage stats. dWar is still being tweaked (and needs to be). I'm not sure it'll ever be perfect but I believe it's more encompassing than just fielding percentage. That being said, I'll once again state I think "Laughing" Larry was a heck of a player.
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  #23  
Old 11-27-2017, 10:44 PM
Kenny Cole Kenny Cole is offline
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IMO, for the most part, HOF voters could care less about defense. I think that is pretty well true from 1936 on, with a couple of exceptions. Offensively, Doyle was WAAAAAAYYYYY ahead of Evers. He was also far more popular because Evers was, by all accounts, a prick. Doyle wasn't. I would have no problem with Doyle being elected but I'm pretty confident that it will not happen in my lifetime.
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  #24  
Old 11-28-2017, 09:00 AM
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dWAR isn't really a useful stat. It's not that I don't care about defense, it's that I don't care about dWAR. Mattingly's dWAR is -6.8 for his career. He won 9 Gold Gloves.
Do you understand that is because of position adjustment? If we were comparing a 1b to a 2b, I would agree with you. We are comparing two players in the same era at the same position. It is a very good measure in this example. Evers was the best defensive 2b of his era. Doyle was a bad defensive 2b.
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  #25  
Old 11-28-2017, 09:28 AM
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IMO, for the most part, HOF voters could care less about defense. I think that is pretty well true from 1936 on, with a couple of exceptions. Offensively, Doyle was WAAAAAAYYYYY ahead of Evers. He was also far more popular because Evers was, by all accounts, a prick. Doyle wasn't. I would have no problem with Doyle being elected but I'm pretty confident that it will not happen in my lifetime.
This is just not true. Brooks Robinson, Ozzie Smith and Ivan Rodriguez were all 1st ballot Hofers. If they were average defensively, they would never make the HoF. Why are Ryne Sandberg and Roberto Alomar in the HoF, but a superior offensive player, Bobby Grich, getting no support? Ray Schalk, Rick Ferrell, Nellie Fox, Red Schoendiest, Bill Mazeroski, Johnny Evers, Pee Wee Reese, Luis Aparicio, Joe Tinker, Travis Jackson, Phil Rizzuto and Rabbit Maranville are examples of other players in the HOF only because of defense.

There are others who would at best be borderline Hofers if not for defense. There are guys, such as Ted Simmons, who would be in the HOF if voters only cared about offense, but was below average defensively. However, Gary Carter, who was worse offensively than Ted, is considered an elite player at his position because he combined elite defense with above average offense. Do I need to go on? It should be clear that Evers being the best defensive player of his era trumps Doyle's superior offense and bad defense. If voters don't care about defense, why has Doyle recieved so little support for the HOF going all the way back to the 30s?
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  #26  
Old 11-28-2017, 09:47 AM
packs packs is offline
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Do you understand that is because of position adjustment? If we were comparing a 1b to a 2b, I would agree with you. We are comparing two players in the same era at the same position. It is a very good measure in this example. Evers was the best defensive 2b of his era. Doyle was a bad defensive 2b.
You brought up the stat, not me. My point stands. A good defensive player like Mattingly can achieve a negative dWAR. I would love for you to support what you're saying about Evers in any way other than condescension. How do you know Evers was so much better than Doyle? They played almost the same amount of games at the position and Evers' fielding percentage is only a half-point higher than Doyle's. I can believe he had better hands, but not by the distance you're putting between them without you explaining yourself.

Last edited by packs; 11-28-2017 at 09:47 AM.
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  #27  
Old 11-28-2017, 10:10 AM
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Doyle was at -22 rField for his career, Evers was at +127. That's a pretty large difference, based on their defense alone Evers would be expected to win about 15 more games for his teams, over the course of his career, than Doyle.

Having good hands is (except for those who are extremely bad) relatively unimportant for defense. Being able to get to balls is much more important.

rField for these guys is based on their Total Zone Rating. Basic info about Total Zone can be found here.

Converting Total Zone Rating into runs is probably done through a linear weight system. Details on linear weights can be found here.
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  #28  
Old 11-28-2017, 10:31 AM
SteveMitchell SteveMitchell is offline
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Default As Lawrence Ritter might have said... Larry Doyle was the glory of his time (at 2nd)

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I know WAR and other advanced stats are supposed to eliminate the discussions of "in their day" but that discussion is no more apt than when discussing Doyle. Can anyone name one NL second baseman who had a better career than Larry Doyle at the time that his career was complete? I don't think you can. So while Doyle might have stats comparable to Travis Jackson, no one had stats comparable to Doyle while he was on the field. That says something to me.
and

I've always thought he was a HOFer. He was the best second basemen in his league for pretty much his entire career. When you're the best player at your position for your generation, I don't see why that wouldn't merit a HOF induction.

"Packs" has said it very well. Modifying the title of Lawrence Ritter's classic a little: Larry Doyle was the glory of his time at second base! [in the National League]

Last edited by SteveMitchell; 11-28-2017 at 10:41 AM. Reason: To add: [in the National League]
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  #29  
Old 11-28-2017, 10:32 AM
OldOriole OldOriole is offline
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Doyle was at -22 rField for his career, Evers was at +127. That's a pretty large difference, based on their defense alone Evers would be expected to win about 15 more games for his teams, over the course of his career, than Doyle.

Having good hands is (except for those who are extremely bad) relatively unimportant for defense. Being able to get to balls is much more important.

rField for these guys is based on their Total Zone Rating. Basic info about Total Zone can be found here.

Converting Total Zone Rating into runs is probably done through a linear weight system. Details on linear weights can be found here.
Very well said and I completely agree....that much of a difference matters a lot. I'll also add that Evers had a career dWAR of 15.4, while Doyle's was below league average at -2.2 during his career. Their defensive abilities aren't even close.

Last edited by OldOriole; 11-28-2017 at 10:49 AM.
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  #30  
Old 11-28-2017, 10:42 AM
packs packs is offline
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Originally Posted by nat View Post
Doyle was at -22 rField for his career, Evers was at +127. That's a pretty large difference, based on their defense alone Evers would be expected to win about 15 more games for his teams, over the course of his career, than Doyle.

Having good hands is (except for those who are extremely bad) relatively unimportant for defense. Being able to get to balls is much more important.

rField for these guys is based on their Total Zone Rating. Basic info about Total Zone can be found here.

Converting Total Zone Rating into runs is probably done through a linear weight system. Details on linear weights can be found here.

Thank you for laying that out.
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