Not sure anyone has seen this? ESPN counterfeiters video Greg Marino

[shelly]

We where told that they where to busy with other things to be bothered with this.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by shelly

We where told that they where to busy with other things to be bothered with this.

Just keep at it. Someone will listen. I believe that recently many FBI agents have probably been assigned to the Las Vegas shooting nightmare. Unfortunately for us collectors there are more important things in life than a fake autograph or card. We can only hope that our few FBI Agents, who do work in our area, are able to convince agents in other regions to take these hobby cases. I don't think that is an easy task, quite honestly.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Leon

Just keep at it. Someone will listen. I believe that recently many FBI agents have probably been assigned to the Las Vegas shooting nightmare. Unfortunately for us collectors there are more important things in life than a fake autograph or card. We can only hope that our few FBI Agents, who do work in our area, are able to convince agents in other regions to take these hobby cases. I don't think that is an easy task, quite honestly.

I agree, Leon, but this case was started and handed to them on a silver platter over five years ago.

Has nothing to do with recent events.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

I agree, Leon, but this case was started and handed to them on a silver platter over five years ago.

Has nothing to do with recent events.

+++++

[Leon]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

I agree, Leon, but this case was started and handed to them on a silver platter over five years ago.

Has nothing to do with recent events.

Gotcha.....didn't know the timeline for ya'lls issue you were working on. The authorities I normally talk to have been quite tied up recently. I figure others are probably busy too. I just don't think our hobby gets a ton of love from authorities in general (to go after the bad guys) besides the one Special Agent, Brian B, who spoke at the Net54 Dinner a few months ago. He said he is able to devote about 30% of his time to the hobby. We need more Agents working in our hobby is the problem....

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Leon

Gotcha.....didn't know the timeline for ya'lls issue you were working on. The authorities I normally talk to have been quite tied up recently. I figure others are probably busy too. I just don't think our hobby gets a ton of love from authorities in general (to go after the bad guys) besides the one Special Agent, Brian B, who spoke at the Net54 Dinner a few months ago. He said he is able to devote about 30% of his time to the hobby. We need more Agents working in our hobby is the problem....

Tim Fitzsimmons was the #1 FBI man for this. He led the case against Marino. Several of us here have worked with him.
This case was started by Tim and given to Florida Feds and they dropped the ball despite much evidence. Tim told several of us that he was EXTREMELY annoyed and frustrated by their actions.
The thievery still goes on.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Tim Fitzsimmons was the #1 FBI man for this. He led the case against Marino. Several of us here have worked with him.
This case was started by Tim and given to Florida Feds and they dropped the ball despite much evidence. Tim told several of us that he was EXTREMELY annoyed and frustrated by their actions.
The thievery still goes on.

And they (in Florida) also allowed the "Statute Of Limitations" to expire.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by Leon

Just keep at it. Someone will listen. I believe that recently many FBI agents have probably been assigned to the Las Vegas shooting nightmare. Unfortunately for us collectors there are more important things in life than a fake autograph or card. We can only hope that our few FBI Agents, who do work in our area, are able to convince agents in other regions to take these hobby cases. I don't think that is an easy task, quite honestly.

Operation Bullpen was a success because of the immense amount of coordination and resources that were expended by law enforcement. Despite all of that, it all hinged on the confidential informants that wore wires and were able to catch the forgers discussing the crime on tape. Had there been no informants and no tapes, they might have walked.

Forgery of sports memorabilia is one of the more difficult criminal cases to prosecute, because autographs can never be authenticated with 100% certainty. Everything is an opinion. Yet, criminal cases are subject to the highest evidentiary burden. It has to be "beyond a reasonable doubt." Being 99% sure someone forged autographs isn't good enough.

These cases drain a lot of resources because of this.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Operation Bullpen was a success because of the immense amount of coordination and resources that were expended by law enforcement. Despite all of that, it all hinged on the confidential informants that wore wires and were able to catch the forgers discussing the crime on tape. Had there been no informants and no tapes, they might have walked.

Forgery of sports memorabilia is one of the more difficult criminal cases to prosecute, because autographs can never be authenticated with 100% certainty. Everything is an opinion. Yet, criminal cases are subject to the highest evidentiary burden. It has to be "beyond a reasonable doubt." Being 99% sure someone forged autographs isn't good enough.
These cases drain a lot of resources because of this.

Beyond a reasonable doubt-

I don't know about that but maybe a board lawyer will know. According to Google 98%-99% is good....
.

Whereas, in a civil trial, a party may prevail with as little as 51 percent probability (a preponderance), those legal authorities who venture to assign a numerical value to “beyond a reasonable doubt” place it in the certainty range of 98 or 99 percent.

.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by Leon

Beyond a reasonable doubt-

I don't know about that but maybe a board lawyer will know. According to Google 98%-99% is good....
.

Whereas, in a civil trial, a party may prevail with as little as 51 percent probability (a preponderance), those legal authorities who venture to assign a numerical value to “beyond a reasonable doubt” place it in the certainty range of 98 or 99 percent.

.

Probably if they have a mountain of circumstantial evidence, I can see that being good enough for a jury. Also depends on how good the defense lawyers are (vs. just a public defender). From the perspective of the prosecutor, they want to be as close to 100% sure before they bring the case, to avoid flushing time and resources down the drain.

[Bestdj777]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Probably if they have a mountain of circumstantial evidence, I can see that being good enough for a jury. Also depends on how good the defense lawyers are (vs. just a public defender). From the perspective of the prosecutor, they want to be as close to 100% sure before they bring the case, to avoid flushing time and resources down the drain.

The "just a public defender" comment is absurd. Some of the best and brightest criminal defense attorneys are public defenders.


- a former, private criminal defense attorney

[Runscott]

I was discussing the green 27 Yankees forged ball with my gf and she was confused as to why anyone would buy something like that, given the expert resources on this forum.

The people who buy that stuff don't come here. The letters are enough for them.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Bestdj777

The "just a public defender" comment is absurd. Some of the best and brightest criminal defense attorneys are public defenders.


- a former, private criminal defense attorney

Sorry to disagree with you counselor. If you use a public defender....You are a MORON

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by Bestdj777

The "just a public defender" comment is absurd. Some of the best and brightest criminal defense attorneys are public defenders.


- a former, private criminal defense attorney

I didn't mean to say that public defenders are bad lawyers. The problem with PD's is that their case loads are very large relative to their low pay and they don't have time to focus on each case fully compared to a private lawyer.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Operation Bullpen was a success because of the immense amount of coordination and resources that were expended by law enforcement. Despite all of that, it all hinged on the confidential informants that wore wires and were able to catch the forgers discussing the crime on tape. Had there been no informants and no tapes, they might have walked.

Forgery of sports memorabilia is one of the more difficult criminal cases to prosecute, because autographs can never be authenticated with 100% certainty. Everything is an opinion. Yet, criminal cases are subject to the highest evidentiary burden. It has to be "beyond a reasonable doubt." Being 99% sure someone forged autographs isn't good enough.

These cases drain a lot of resources because of this.

When you get to a court case, you can do such things as ink chemicals identification and dating that can scientifically and definitively prove forgery, but that are not done in normal hobby examination because of the time/cost.

It's worthy to side note that science is excellent at forgery detection, but has limits in authentication. For example, if the canvas and paint is scientifically shown to be from the 1900s, that in and of itself proves the Rembrandt painting is a fake. However, if the canvas and paint are shown to be from the correct period, that is important if not essential evidence but not proof in and of itself that the painting was by Rembrandt.

[Stampsfan]

I think what you are saying is, it's easier to prove something is not real than it is to prove something is real.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by drcy

When you get to a court case, you can do such things as ink chemicals identification and dating that can scientifically and definitively prove forgery, but that are not done in normal hobby examination because of the time/cost.

It's worthy to side note that science is excellent at forgery detection, but has limits in authentication. For example, if the canvas and paint is scientifically shown to be from the 1900s, that in and of itself proves the Rembrandt painting is a fake. However, if the canvas and paint are shown to be from the correct period, that is important if not essential evidence but not proof in and of itself that the painting was by Rembrandt.

Even with all that, how do you prove intent? Assuming there is no smoking gun?