rarest backs

[darwinbulldog]

Lately I've become more interested in rare back variations on otherwise common cards. "Otherwise common" spans a wide range, but in general I'm thinking of cards that carry an ACC designation and that one can generally find at least one example of on eBay at any given moment. I'd like to invite the type collectors and anyone else to edit my first stab at a listing of these rare backs with common fronts -- and, if so inclined, to estimate how many total examples of the rare back exist and/or what proportion of all the cards in the set have that particular back. Are there some that I should drop from this list? Some I should add (assuredly yes)? And what are the toughest E94 and T212 backs? Are any of the T212 back ads so rare that they should be listed here?

E94 (?)
E98 Old Put
M101-4/5 Everybody's, Holmes to Homes, Mall Theater
T206 Old Mill (blue)
"T206" Ty Cobb
T207 Red Cross
T212 (?)
T216 Virginia Extra
W502 Greiners
W514 Hendler's, Barker
W515 Fleer, Jersey Ice Cream
W551 Wool's American Maid Bread
W573 Cafe du Monde
W575 Johnson, Haffner's, Clark's, Gassler's

[obcmac]

If we're putting fake backs on the list, it's going to be quite the list ;-)

[Sean]

Are you referring to the "blue" Old Mill?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by obcmac

If we're putting fake backs on the list, it's going to be quite the list ;-)

Blue Old Mill might be debatable. I don't think I see any others that are questionable? However the OP says the backs might be found on ebay at any given time? That list is not those....

and as for Greiners, I think of them more as F-Unc but who am I to say? There are very low known populations of most of those..E94 has 10 different overprints known plus a few very minor variations.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Leon

Blue Old Mill might be debatable. I don't think I see any others that are questionable? However the OP says the backs might be found on ebay at any given time? That list is not those....

No, the fronts. You can, right now, find an E94, an E98, a T206, a T216, etc. on eBay.

[Seiklis]

T215-2 Pirate
T213-3 Overprint
T216 Blank back
T205 Blank Back

Few more you're missing

Far as I know the closest you'll get to a rare T212 is the T212-2 150 cards but there could be rarer backs I don't know about

[Leon]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

No, the fronts. You can, right now, find an E94, an E98, a T206, a T216, etc. on eBay.

Gotcha on the fronts. I didn't understand the question. Yes, most of the fronts are fairly common..

[wazoo]

This one

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Seiklis

T215-2 Pirate
T213-3 Overprint
T216 Blank back
T205 Blank Back

Few more you're missing

Far as I know the closest you'll get to a rare T212 is the T212-2 150 cards but there could be rarer backs I don't know about

Thank you.

A T215 Pirate is almost as common as a T215 Red Cross, isn't it? That's why I left them off.

T213-3 overprint might be a good addition, depending on whether the comparison set is T213 altogether or just T213-3, but my inclination would be to use T213-3 since it was issued so much later, as opposed to just being a different style printed in the same year.

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

A T215 Pirate is almost as common as a T215 Red Cross, isn't it? That's why I left them off.

Not even close. You can usually find a T215 Red Cross on ebay (though over-priced). There have only been 1-2 examples of any subject with the T215 Pirate back.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by wolf441

Not even close. You can usually find a T215 Red Cross on ebay (though over-priced). There have only been 1-2 examples of any subject with the T215 Pirate back.

That's a separate issue. There are about 100 Pirates that I know of. How many hundreds or thousands of Red Crosses do you suppose there are? I was generally trying to limit myself to cards that would make up less than 1% of the total for the cataloged set. Surely there aren't 10,000 T215s, are there?

[Mikehealer]

T213-1 and T214 both have common fronts(T206), but not the easiest ad backs.

[T3s]

T3 and T9 "no-ad" backs are hens teeth. Easily less than 1% of the T3 and T9 population. No doubt about it.

[rainier2004]

Even though e107s are rare, the OP back (not sure if that counts) is much rarer and accounts for under 5% of their total pop, probably less...

[refz]

Victory tobacco backs are quite difficult as well.

[tiger8mush]

M101-4/5 Haserots Erie Coffee - Part of a lot of 6 that Rob D. sold last year, this one was the poorest of the bunch - the only I could afford at the time haha. I don't think any other examples of this back are known.

Rob

[atx840]

Fun thread. Would love to see some tough examples.

[tiger8mush]

Most M101-2 Supplements have blank backs. Probably one in 500 (maybe less?) have an ad on the back. Here is one of the few ad-back variations - borrowing from Mark P. as I haven't scanned mine in. Great thread created by Mark here

Rob

[DeanH3]

T213-1

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

M101-4/5 Haserots Erie Coffee - Part of a lot of 6 that Rob D. sold last year, this one was the poorest of the bunch - the only I could afford at the time haha. I don't think any other examples of this back are known.

Rob

Wow, that looks terrible. I love it.

[ZachS]

Chris - love the Chase factory 8 overprint

Dean - I love that type 1 Matty too

Here's my contribution... W573 Cafe Du Monde ad back (thanks again, Leon!)

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by ZachS

Chris - love the Chase factory 8 overprint

Dean - I love that type 1 Matty too

Here's my contribution... W573 Cafe Du Monde ad back (thanks again, Leon!)

Those Cafe du Monde cards are great. And a case could be made that, at the time that card was produed, Wilbur Cooper was the single best pitcher in the NL. He falls a bit shy of Hall-worthy when you look at his full career but definitely not by much. There are at least a few pitchers enshrined who were not as good.

[ValKehl]

W573 with a Leader Theatre ad on the back.

[frohme]

Another of the oddball theatre-backed cards. There are a number of these about - in both W-573 and W-575 styles.




They are sort of on the edge, IMO, as they're not on the same stock as the traditional ones (these are thicker/heavier). The fact that these are "Series D" implies there may have been others, but I've never seen any... nor have I really looked.

--
Mike

[glenv]

Ad backed R316s are rare. Anyone seen another Rialto Theatre back?

rialto_ft.jpg rialto_bk.jpg

[btcarfagno]

What is a T3 no-ad back? I know of the checklist back and the ad back. Is it blank back or something?

Tom C

[Leon]

[QUOTE=glenv;1310143]Ad backed R316s are rare. Anyone seen another Rialto Theatre back?

Never seen that one Glen. Nice...

here is one or two and I think there are a few known of each of these...

[T3s]

Tom C. and a few others asked about the T3 (and T9) "No-Ad" back. An example is attached.

As you can see, it's been called the "no-ad" because all of the redemption information usually seen on the bottom of the card is missing.

On my website - www.t3turkeyred.com - I have a page dedicated to T3 back variations in general as well as one showing a group of "no-ad" backs

Most collectors don't think of backs when collecting T3s, but these are extremely rare. I've been tracking them down for more than 20 years, buying (or trying to buy) nearly every one I've come across. There are still a few that I've never seen.

Happy collecting,
Craig

[kdixon]

Wheat overprint.

[ZachS]

Craig, I'm checking out your website. The site is very cool and your collection is amazing.

[tedzan]

Yes Ringo......these certainly DON'T COME EASY......Six Super Prints sub-set



.


....



.




TED Z

[darwinbulldog]

If we limit it to cards that have a cataloged front, comprise less than 1% of the cataloged set's total population, and of which fewer than 50 examples with the rare back are known to exist, what should we add or subtract from this group? (Let's also omit the blank backs and supplements and blue Old Mill for now.)


E98 Old Put
E121 Kings
M101-4/5 Everybody's, Haserot's, Holmes to Homes, Mall Theater
R316 Douglas Park, Morton, Rialto
T206 Old Mill (brown)
T206 Lenox (brown)
T206 Broad Leaf 460
"T206" Ty Cobb
T207 Red Cross
T213-3 Overprint
T216 Virginia Extra
W514 Hendler's, Barker
W515 Fleer, Jersey
W551 Wool's
W573/E120 Cafe du Monde, Cream Nut, Kings, Leader Theatre
W575 Johnson, Haffner's, Clark's, Gassler's

[bn2cardz]

t205 Hindu

[smtjoy]

Im not sure what the other M101-4/5 collectors think but I dont put the Haserot's back in the same category as the others as its a stamped back not a printed back. Its a very cool card but I would not put it as an official back.

Some exhibit stamped backs-

[DeanH3]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

If we limit it to cards that have a cataloged front, comprise less than 1% of the cataloged set's total population, and of which fewer than 50 examples with the rare back are known to exist, what should we add or subtract from this group? (Let's also omit the blank backs and supplements and blue Old Mill for now.)


E98 Old Put
E121 Kings
M101-4/5 Everybody's, Haserot's, Holmes to Homes, Mall Theater
R316 Douglas Park, Morton, Rialto
T206 Old Mill (brown)
T206 Lenox (brown)
T206 Broad Leaf 460
"T206" Ty Cobb
T207 Red Cross
T213-3 Overprint
T216 Virginia Extra
W514 Hendler's, Barker
W515 Fleer, Jersey
W551 Wool's
W573/E120 Cafe du Monde, Cream Nut, Kings, Leader Theatre
W575 Johnson, Haffner's, Clark's, Gassler's

I think T213-1's should be added. I surmise there are less than 50 of each.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by DeanH3

I think T213-1's should be added. I surmise there are less than 50 of each.

Even so, they're about 50 times too plentiful for what I'm trying to list.

[ValKehl]

There also exists a W575-1 with the Leader Theatre back. I don't have one in my type collection to show (wish I did!), but Leon shows one in his fabulous type collection, which anyone can view by clicking on "VINTAGE LINKS" at the top of the page.
Val

[Mikehealer]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

if we limit it to cards that have a cataloged front, comprise less than 1% of the cataloged set's total population, and of which fewer than 50 examples with the rare back are known to exist, what should we add or subtract from this group? (let's also omit the blank backs and supplements and blue old mill for now.)


e98 old put
e121 kings
m101-4/5 everybody's, haserot's, holmes to homes, mall theater
r316 douglas park, morton, rialto
t206 old mill (brown)
t206 lenox (brown)
t206 broad leaf 460
"t206" ty cobb
t207 red cross
t213-3 overprint
t216 virginia extra
w514 hendler's, barker
w515 fleer, jersey
w551 wool's
w573/e120 cafe du monde, cream nut, kings, leader theatre
w575 johnson, haffner's, clark's, gassler's

t214

[ullmandds]

d303...esp mothers bread.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Even so, they're about 50 times too plentiful for what I'm trying to list.

"50" is not the population number of 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards. Unless many, many more are discovered.

It's very much less, as the following illustrates......


6 known......
....................



5 known......
....................



4 known......
....................




Known cards............... 5 .................................................. ...................... 4 .................................................. .................. 4





Furthermore, similar population numbers exist for the 62 other subjects in this 1910 COUPON set.

Therefore, darwinbulldog, you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss Dean Hackett's suggestion (in Post #35) regarding these T213-1 cards.
There are less of these known than the 13 (or 14) examples of the Ty Cobb card with the Ty Cobb Smoking Tobacco back on your list.


TED Z
.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by tedzan

"50" is not the population number of 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards. Unless many, many more are discovered.

It's very much less, as the following illustrates......


6 known......
....................



5 known......
....................



4 known......
....................




Known cards............... 5 .................................................. ...................... 4 .................................................. .................. 4





Furthermore, similar population numbers exist for the 62 other subjects in this 1910 COUPON set.

Therefore, darwinbulldog, you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss Dean Hackett's suggestion (in Post #35) regarding these T213-1 cards.
There are less of these known than the 13 (or 14) examples of the Ty Cobb card with the Ty Cobb Smoking Tobacco back on your list.


TED Z
.

By my estimation, 68 times 4 is more than 13. Even more than 50 probably.

[tiger8mush]

how about E121 with Gertenrich back ... I think there are right around 50 known (of which Rhys seems to own a good portion of!!! )

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Lately I've become more interested in rare back variations on otherwise common cards. "Otherwise common" spans a wide range, but in general I'm thinking of cards that carry an ACC designation and that one can generally find at least one example of on eBay at any given moment. I'd like to invite the type collectors and anyone else to edit my first stab at a listing of these rare backs with common fronts -- and, if so inclined, to estimate how many total examples of the rare back exist and/or what proportion of all the cards in the set have that particular back. Are there some that I should drop from this list? Some I should add (assuredly yes)? And what are the toughest E94 and T212 backs? Are any of the T212 back ads so rare that they should be listed here?

Currently, there are 241 cards listed on Ebay under the T213 category. These 241 cards are a combination of either T213-2's or T213-3's.

There are ZERO ! ....NADA ! ....ZILCH ! 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards listed. And, if you bother to check the ebay T213 listing on a weekly
basis, you will see this same pattern. Rarely, will a T213-1 pop up.

Therefore, per your stated "RAREST QUALIFICATION" in your 1st post here, the T213-1 back should indeed be considered in your "rarest" list.



Furthermore,
you include BROAD LEAF 460 back in your list. Well, 27 different T206 subjects have been confirmed with BL 460. To date, total population
of T206's with this back exceeds 50 cards. Not that much of a difference when comparing them to the population of T213-1 cards.


TED Z
.

[darwinbulldog]

Furthermore,
you include BROAD LEAF 460 back in your list. Well, 27 different T206 subjects have been confirmed with BL 460. To date, total population
of T206's with this back exceeds 50 cards. Not that much of a difference when comparing them to the population of T213-1 cards.


TED Z
.[/QUOTE]

I'm sure you're right about BL 460. I'll take that off my list in my next update. Thanks. T213-1 is still too common for my purposes.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

how about E121 with Gertenrich back ... I think there are right around 50 known (of which Rhys seems to own a good portion of!!! )

Gertenrich is probably a good addition, and a good-looking one to boot.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Gertenrich is probably a good addition, and a good-looking one to boot.

Maybe you missed my suggestion earlier, but I would think the t205 Hindu should be on the list.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Maybe you missed my suggestion earlier, but I would think the t205 Hindu should be on the list.

I did see that earlier. Thank you. I will add that to the list.

So we have T205, 206, and 207 represented. TTT isn't rare enough to add T204, and T208 is too rare altogether, so I think this is the longest run of consecutive ACC designations we'll have, barring some other weird W stamp sets I don't know of.

Anyone other than Leon have most of these?

[ValKehl]

I may be wrong, but I think there are less than 50 E222 A.W.H Caramel cards known to exist.
Val

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

I may be wrong, but I think there are less than 50 E222 A.W.H Caramel cards known to exist.
Val

I don't think there's enough of an AWH vs. AWA discrepancy to qualify. That is, neither one of them is less than 1% of the E222 population.

[ValKehl]

I agree with your response re the E222s - I forgot about your "comprise less than 1% of the cataloged set's total population" stipulation.
Val