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#1
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T207 Red Cross (known examples)
I'm still doing some research on Louisiana issues and I've been looking into T207 Anon Fact. 3 and Red Cross.
The Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards mentions that 4 Red Cross backs were discovered in LA in 1983. I found mention of a Lange being discovered sometime after that. And of course we all know about the 2010 Louisiana Find which added 8 more Red Cross backs (including a Lowdermilk). This should bring the grand total to 13 known examples. While I've found many articles mentioning the first 4 examples and that they were all Chicago players, I haven't found a list of which 4 players were found. I did find evidence of 2 of the original 4 cards. One shows up in VCP and Leon posted a Weaver in a thread here. Looking for confirmation of the other 2 examples from the original find. If anyone here has any of these please feel free to show them off. Initial group of four: 1. Russel Blackburne - (PSA 3 in REA on 5/2/10 sold for $9,400.00. Obviously not the same card as the SGC 10 from the Louisiana Find in August 2010) 2. George Weaver (SGC 20) - LEON? 3. ???? 4. ???? Discovered sometime between "finds": 5. Frank Lange - (VCP shows an SGC 10 in Mastro Auction on 2/23/07 sold for $4,652.40) Group of eight from the "Louisiana Find": 6. Louis Lowdermilk (SGC 40) 7. John Adams (SGC 50) 8. Russell Blackburne (SGC 10) 9. William Cunningham (SGC 40) 10. Otto Miller (SGC 40) 11. Red Nelson (SGC 30) 12. Don Carlos Ragan (SGC 30) 13. George Tyler (SGC 30) Last edited by ZachS; 07-07-2014 at 08:53 AM. |
#2
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It should't be too difficult to find those other 2 cards somewhere......
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Leon Luckey |
#3
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Quote:
That's a nice Weaver. Do you have any info about its history? Lew Lipset mentions the original 4 card find was made in 1983. Do you know anything about that find or where this card went between then and when it ended up in your collection? Last edited by ZachS; 07-07-2014 at 11:45 AM. |
#4
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T207 Red Cross
I'm sure one of the missing two is Ward Miller. The other is rumored to be Joe Benz. I'm the owner of the Adams SGC 50.
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#5
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All but the missing two...
With Leon's ubiquitous Weaver above, these are the other ones I've seen an image of. The 11 accounted ones for in your list, I believe.
Like Ron, and others, I have Benz as a definite, and both Ward Miller (two separate confirmations) and George Mogridge only 1 as the possible other card(s).
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T207's - Sale/Trade Info T207 image collections @ ImageEvent. T207 Master/Master - stopped at 676/704 - 96%.. Last edited by frohme; 07-07-2014 at 09:27 PM. Reason: Add missing Blackburne link |
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I found this thread mentioning Ward Miller http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=84140
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I can't believe it's this difficult to figure out these 2 cards with so many people talking about them in past articles. |
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If that's the case then you just took the list to at least 15. That can't be right can it? EDIT - I think I read that wrong... you're saying you have 2 confirmations of ONE Ward Miller card... not 2 separate cards. So the 11 I have listed plus Benz plus Ward Miller OR George Mogridge (13 total cards)? Or 11 plus Benz, Ward Miller, AND Mogridge (14 total cards)? Last edited by ZachS; 07-07-2014 at 09:34 PM. |
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Clarification
Quote:
Quote:
Which would make 14 cards of 13 players, with only the Blackburne as having more than one. Note that the two individual Blackburne images above are the before and after the "cleanup" referenced in certain threads to get a PSA 3... back damage and all.
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T207's - Sale/Trade Info T207 image collections @ ImageEvent. T207 Master/Master - stopped at 676/704 - 96%.. Last edited by frohme; 07-07-2014 at 10:01 PM. Reason: grammar |
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Quote:
4 in the first discovery from Louisiana (1983?) 1 a while later supposedly in NJ (Lange SGC 10 was sold by Mastro in 2007) 8 in the Louisiana Find of 2010 (these 8 are definitely known) I agree that there are definitely TWO Blackburne cards (1 from the first discovery that is in a PSA 3 holder and 1 from the LA Find that is in an SGC 10 holder). You make mention of the Ward Miller find being between the Lange and the LA Find but I've never heard of a card being found outside of the 3 "finds" that I mentioned. I have also been unable to find a picture of the Miller card anywhere but several people have mentioned Miller being found with a Red Cross back. I'm leaning toward the opinion that Miller may have been 1 in the group of 4 found in 1983 along with Leon's Weaver and the PSA 3 Blackburne that had glue removed from the back. I found this quote from Jay Behrens in an article about the LA Find: Quote:
Last edited by ZachS; 07-08-2014 at 07:46 AM. |
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I didn't know there are two Blackburne for Red Cross back.
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#11
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yes there are 2 blackburne...and no JAy behrens can not post here...you can likely contact him via behrens bbq sauce.
Last edited by ullmandds; 07-08-2014 at 08:30 AM. |
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Sorry... didn't know that. I try to stay away from the drama.
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#13
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My interpretation only.
Zach,
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The other aspect was my recollection of the statements about the early find. I don't have access to resources right now, but recall - and it is my recollection only - that it contained all White Sox cards, and was not just Chicago cards. My memory isn't what it once was, so I may be way off base. FWIW, Old Cardboard has it both ways: Quote:
Apparently, even in early 2007, there was knowledge about (or contention of) 6 separate Red Cross backed cards, though there is the same glossing over of Chicago vs WhiteSox even then, as clearly Ward Miller was a Cubbie. All that said, there seems to be a lot of re-quoting and reading in to what was said/written/recalled (and I'm equally guilty), so going back to the source(s) seems appropriate, if at all possible. At least we now know for certain its not just WhiteSox. Still, 13 or 14 cards, either way its a small number, and we have other open items:
Now if you want to talk Anonymous cards (i.e. Fac 3), that's another can of worms... -- Mike
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T207's - Sale/Trade Info T207 image collections @ ImageEvent. T207 Master/Master - stopped at 676/704 - 96%.. Last edited by frohme; 07-09-2014 at 01:20 PM. Reason: Fix date |
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Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by ZachS; 07-09-2014 at 02:00 PM. |
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More RC
Nice, Zach.
I recall having read that excerpt before, though I'd not have attributed it to that publication. Times were definitely dirty ... "mistakes" were made ... the rest is history (or fodder for hobby enthusiasts/researchers). Quote:
-- Mike |
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Just some new info for this great thread following the Spring 2018 REA auction. Brian's note is well-written, so I'll quote him so as not to leave out information. (I asked before sharing these details.) This is exciting stuff! I don't have the card in-hand yet, so these are the scans from REA.
Spoke to the consignor of the Red Cross. He believes he got this card in the late 1960s! He is in his 80s now, but he's very sharp and he's been at this for a long time. His recollection is that he used to set up at a flea market in NJ when a guy came to his booth and said he had old cigarette cards. Our consignor told him that he was interested, so the guy said next time the flea market happened, he'd stop by. Our consignor wrote him off but sure enough he came back the next month with a cigar box full of cards. There were dozens of T207s, various other baseball cards, and hundreds of nonsport birds cards he recalled. He paid $25 which he said was a strong price. The T207s formed the basis of his complete set, and he never gave much thought to the Red Cross other than that it was different than all the Recruits he had. He is confident that it was the 1960s because he moved to a different area in 1972. We submitted the card for grading on his behalf. |
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Wow Steve, you've added this Ward Miller Red Cross and that split level Pirate? You have had one hell of a year. so far.
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#18
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Sweet card. I was in the mix on this one but got too rich for my blood..great card and congratulations
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Favorite MLB quote. " I knew we could find a place to hide you". Lee Smith talking about my catching abilities at Cubs Fantasy camp. |
#19
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Thanks, guys -- I'm really going to enjoy this one. I figured that this was one of the "early" Red Cross cards (as compared to the more recent Louisiana Find cards) so I wasn't going to allow the stamped back to deter me.
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#20
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great miller...congrats!
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