PSA-A Cautionary Tale!

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think I used up my one remaining brain cell on this thread. David, why don't you think Kevin actually called?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think he called, but that Joe asked him to treat it confidentially, which he is honoring as he should.

I don't know, Peter. x2drich2000 made a very good point. Would a CEO of a company really discuss a confidential matter like that with someone who had no involvement at all - especially a matter that could have had legal consequences?

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I don't know, Peter. x2drich2000 made a very good point. Would a CEO of a company really discuss a confidential matter like that with someone who had no involvement at all - especially a matter that could have had legal consequences?

Are you f***** stupid or what?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

david- you always have been one to stir up any bullshit you can on the board. I tell you what piss ant, call Joe at the number I gave you. I have done business with him for years, so what exactly is your f**** problem?

Nice one, Kevin. When the LIES are exposed, resort to name calling.

[ullmandds]

kids...cover your ears!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Are you f***** stupid or what?

Only for believing you

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Nice one, Kevin. When the LIES are exposed, resort to name calling.

David- do you have little man's syndrome? Grab a set and call Joe, He already knows that you are an idiot, but he wants to talk to you....

[conor912]

Another signature net54 car crash.....

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by conor912

Another signature net54 car crash.....

For some real fun, come back tomorrow and read all the edited posts.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I don't know, Peter. x2drich2000 made a very good point. Would a CEO of a company really discuss a confidential matter like that with someone who had no involvement at all - especially a matter that could have had legal consequences?

Matt posted the whole thing here. He has no expectations of privacy about it, obviously. I don't see any issue with Joe discussing it with someone who calls and asks.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

For some real fun, come back tomorrow and read all the edited posts.

F--- off.

[calvindog]

I don't blame Joe for not posting anything on the board about this: it's his call. PSA gets bashed everyday here and if he doesn't want to put his finger into one of the nine holes in the dike, it's his choice. He also surely knows that whatever he writes out here will be dissected for days to come.

The OP seems like a reasonable guy and isn't bashing Joe all that much -- he's obviously pissed, for reasons that are PSA's fault and not his. I think PSA handled it mostly well (I'm discounting anything that Joe is alleged to have said on the phone). My only problem is that if Joe is so hot to talk to anyone on the board about what occurred, why would he ban the OP on the CU boards? No discussion there but plenty of discussion on the phone? How many businesses are bashed publicly without any censorship? Hell, if you buy a camera on the Canon website they allow their customers to blast the hell out of a product for everyone to see. So do many other companies. Why is Joe so damned thin-skinned that he would immediately shut down any opposing public viewpoint? It smacks of paranoia and lends credence to the claim that PSA has something to hide. PSA made a mistake -- it happens. Not the end of the world.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I don't blame Joe for not posting anything on the board about this: it's his call. PSA gets bashed everyday here and if he doesn't want to put his finger into one of the nine holes in the dyke, it's his choice. He also surely knows that whatever he writes out here will be dissected for days to come.

The OP seems like a reasonable guy and isn't bashing Joe all that much -- he's obviously pissed, for reasons that are PSA's fault and not his. I think PSA handled it mostly well (I'm discounting anything that Joe is alleged to have said on the phone). My only problem is that if Joe is so hot to talk to anyone on the board about what occurred, why would he ban the OP on the CU boards? No discussion there but plenty of discussion on the phone? How many businesses are bashed publicly without any censorship? Hell, if you buy a camera on the Canon website they allow their customers to blast the hell out of a product for everyone to see. So do many other companies. Why is Joe so damned thin-skinned that he would immediately shut down any opposing public viewpoint? It smacks of paranoia and lends credence to the claim that PSA has something to hide. PSA made a mistake -- it happens. Not the end of the world.

Half the people bashing PSA on these boards came over here to do it because they can no longer post on the PSA boards. Trying to silence the complaints with banishment isn't working for them.

[pepis]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I don't blame Joe for not posting anything on the board about this: it's his call. PSA gets bashed everyday here and if he doesn't want to put his finger into one of the nine holes in the dike, it's his choice. He also surely knows that whatever he writes out here will be dissected for days to come.

The OP seems like a reasonable guy and isn't bashing Joe all that much -- he's obviously pissed, for reasons that are PSA's fault and not his. I think PSA handled it mostly well (I'm discounting anything that Joe is alleged to have said on the phone). My only problem is that if Joe is so hot to talk to anyone on the board about what occurred, why would he ban the OP on the CU boards? No discussion there but plenty of discussion on the phone? How many businesses are bashed publicly without any censorship? Hell, if you buy a camera on the Canon website they allow their customers to blast the hell out of a product for everyone to see. So do many other companies. Why is Joe so damned thin-skinned that he would immediately shut down any opposing public viewpoint? It smacks of paranoia and lends credence to the claim that PSA has something to hide. PSA made a mistake -- it happens. Not the end of the world.

Guilty feelings to cover-up the whatever wrong doing might've been.

[wonkaticket]

We all "know" or have been "told" how much more super high grade and super under graded PSA cards sell for. So I'm always shocked how often they have to be bumped for price reductions via the BST.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

we all "know" or have been "told" how much more super high grade and super under graded psa cards sell for. So i'm always shocked how often they have to be bumped for price reductions via the bst.

lol

[bobbyw8469]

We all "know" or have been "told" how much more super high grade and super under graded PSA cards sell for. So I'm always shocked how often they have to be bumped for price reductions via the BST.

When a price reduction is really not necessary at all. Just consign it and watch it set a world record high price.

[Republicaninmass]

Who puts their finger in a dike anyways

[barrysloate]

Here is my take on this: The grading services started with the mission to grade and authenticate baseball cards. That's a good thing. But a whole other cottage industry has evolved, and that's what most of us call the grading game. There is such an incredible amount of money to be made by simply getting a half grade bump on high grade cards, that there are any number of people whose entire business model is simply looking for cards that are ever so slightly undergrded, since the half grade bump will put perhaps thousands of dollars in their pocket. And since we all agree the difference between say an 8.5 and 9 is virtually imperceptible and entirely arbirtrary, there is a feeling among many that these bumps may be given gratis to their best customers who are simply willing to play the game. It's a system clearly stacked in favor of the big guys, and as many have said TPG are in the business of minting money. This is a really bad sign for the future of this hobby, and with all the attention paid to auction house shilling, I think there is another very big issue that the hobby will soon have to come to terms with. The grading game comes with some serious repercussions.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Here is my take on this: The grading services started with the mission to grade and authenticate baseball cards. That's a good thing. But a whole other cottage industry has evolved, and that's what most of us call the grading game. There is such an incredible amount of money to be made by simply getting a half grade bump on high grade cards, that there are any number of people whose entire business model is simply looking for cards that are ever so slightly undergrded, since the half grade bump will put perhaps thousands of dollars in their pocket. And since we all agree the difference between say an 8.5 and 9 is virtually imperceptible and entirely arbirtrary, there is a feeling among many that these bumps may be given gratis to their best customers who are simply willing to play the game. It's a system clearly stacked in favor of the big guys, and as many have said TPG are in the business of minting money. This is a really bad sign for the future of this hobby, and with all the attention paid to auction house shilling, I think there is another very big issue that the hobby will soon have to come to terms with. The grading game comes with some serious repercussions.

Better that than a business model based on looking for ex and exmt centered cards that can be improved.

[barrysloate]

Let me put it in perspective Peter: If you had a 52 Topps Mantle graded 8.5, and you had an opportunity to have it bumped to a 9, that label change would put your kid through four years of college. Isn't that a bit of scary thought? Wouldn't you begin to wonder what really might be going on behind the scenes?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Let me put it in perspective Peter: If you had a 52 Topps Mantle graded 8.5, and you had an opportunity to have it bumped to a 9, that label change would put your kid through four years of college. Isn't that a bit of scary thought? Wouldn't you begin to wonder what really might be going on behind the scenes?

If it deserved a 9 and is not altered, no. I am much more concerned about people buying 5s and 6s and manufacturing 8s and 9s.

[jhs5120]

This thread is hilarious.

"Joe Orlando needs to answer my questions!"
"I just spoke to him, he'd like you to call him.. Here's his number."
"I'd rather just complain!"

If you have questions, call the guy. Matt obviously doesn't have a problem with making this issue public, so I don't see a reason for Joe not to discuss this issue over the phone.

"Joe needs to come on the forum and tell his side of the story!"
"Joe would love to discuss this with anyone who calls"
"Does anyone else think it's horrible Joe will discuss a private matter with anyone?"

Hilarious.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Here is my take on this: The grading services started with the mission to grade and authenticate baseball cards. That's a good thing. But a whole other cottage industry has evolved, and that's what most of us call the grading game. There is such an incredible amount of money to be made by simply getting a half grade bump on high grade cards, that there are any number of people whose entire business model is simply looking for cards that are ever so slightly undergrded, since the half grade bump will put perhaps thousands of dollars in their pocket. And since we all agree the difference between say an 8.5 and 9 is virtually imperceptible and entirely arbirtrary, there is a feeling among many that these bumps may be given gratis to their best customers who are simply willing to play the game. It's a system clearly stacked in favor of the big guys, and as many have said TPG are in the business of minting money. This is a really bad sign for the future of this hobby, and with all the attention paid to auction house shilling, I think there is another very big issue that the hobby will soon have to come to terms with. The grading game comes with some serious repercussions.

Excellent analysis Barry. The best (or worst) example was the 1973 Topps Art Shell card going from an 8 to a 10.

In keeping with the topic at hand, I also see serious repercussions when a company president continues to alienate his customer base. It is inevitable that those collectors will sell off their collections which adds to the supply on the open market which will drive the values of the cards downward which in turn devalues other hobbyist's collections. If I had a lot of money tied up in PSA cards - which I did at one time, but don't anymore - I would be demanding changes in Collector Universe's management.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If it deserved a 9 and is not altered, no. I am much more concerned about people buying 5s and 6s and manufacturing 8s and 9s.

No doubt Peter that is a very serious problem too. I was just focusing on one issue that came to mind as I was slogging through this thread. The TPG will have some major issues to deal with down the road.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

This thread is hilarious.

"Joe Orlando needs to answer my questions!"
"I just spoke to him, he'd like you to call him.. Here's his number."
"I'd rather just complain!"

If you have questions, call the guy. Matt obviously doesn't have a problem with making this issue public, so I don't see a reason for Joe not to discuss this issue over the phone.

"Joe needs to come on the forum and tell his side of the story!"
"Joe would love to discuss this with anyone who calls"
"Does anyone else think it's horrible Joe will discuss a private matter with anyone?"

Hilarious.

True. Plus it's apparent that Joe loves his significant other very much.

[barrysloate]

Peter- just to add, if it deserved a 9 then why wasn't it a 9? Where is the accuracy with so much money at stake?

[Moonlight Graham]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Who puts their finger in a dike anyways

Another dike

[markf31]

Originally Posted by calvindog

The OP seems like a reasonable guy and isn't bashing Joe all that much -- he's obviously pissed, for reasons that are PSA's fault and not his. I think PSA handled it mostly well (I'm discounting anything that Joe is alleged to have said on the phone). My only problem is that if Joe is so hot to talk to anyone on the board about what occurred, why would he ban the OP on the CU boards? No discussion there but plenty of discussion on the phone? How many businesses are bashed publicly without any censorship? Hell, if you buy a camera on the Canon website they allow their customers to blast the hell out of a product for everyone to see. So do many other companies. Why is Joe so damned thin-skinned that he would immediately shut down any opposing public viewpoint? It smacks of paranoia and lends credence to the claim that PSA has something to hide. PSA made a mistake -- it happens. Not the end of the world.

Great points Jeff! In my mind Joe's response or reply whether written or verbal at this point in time matters not at all, not to me personally. In the vast world of the consumer market, how many other companies would go so far out of their way to not only cut all ties with a consumer, lose future business and beyond all that try to censor that consumer, over what amounts to a conversation and exchange that occurred over the phone?

These actions by PSA, regardless of what Matt may have said to Joe (short of personal threats or threats of violence which Matt obviously did not make) should be unacceptable for ANY company.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

This thread is hilarious.

"Joe Orlando needs to answer my questions!"
"I just spoke to him, he'd like you to call him.. Here's his number."
"I'd rather just complain!"

If you have questions, call the guy. Matt obviously doesn't have a problem with making this issue public, so I don't see a reason for Joe not to discuss this issue over the phone.

"Joe needs to come on the forum and tell his side of the story!"
"Joe would love to discuss this with anyone who calls"
"Does anyone else think it's horrible Joe will discuss a private matter with anyone?"

Hilarious.

That's not how it went down at all. You're putting your words in quotations as if that's what was actually said. Until Kevin mentioned it in post #80 ("I still would like to hear Joe's side of this"), no one even suggested that Joe come here and give his side of the story. It was Kevin that suggested that.

I could care less about Joe's side of the story. Sure, if he wants to come here and tell it, I will certainly listen with an open mind, but I'm darn sure not going to ask him to come here and I don't read in this thread where anybody else asked him to either. So what are you talking about?

Kevin supposedly called him, but can't tell us what he said?!? Come on, isn't that behaving like a third grader playing the 'I know something you don't know' game? Funny, but I think everybody pretty much feels that Joe's side of the story is irrelevant, otherwise somebody would have called him other than Kevin (supposedly).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Peter- just to add, if it deserved a 9 then why wasn't it a 9? Where is the accuracy with so much money at stake?

As we know, accuracy in grading is a false precision. I bet I would not grade 100 cards perfectly consistently and neither would you.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As we know, accuracy in grading is a false precision. I bet I would not grade 100 cards perfectly consistently and neither would you.

Exactly Peter. We agree on that. Then why are cards graded using a scale that suggests precision? If you can't tell a 7 from a 7.5, or an 8.5 from a 9 without any discernable objective criteria, then why feign precision? Why not use an adjectival system instead. You wouldn't walk through a museum and say, I give this Picasso a 92 but the Renoir only an 85. That makes absolutely no sense. But given the very subjective system used for grading baseball cards, we have this silly numerical scale. Why?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Exactly Peter. We agree on that. Then why are cards graded using a scale that suggests precision? If you can't tell a 7 from a 7.5, or an 8.5 from a 9 without any discernable objective criteria, then why feign precision? Why not use an adjectival system instead. You wouldn't walk through a museum and say, I give this Picasso a 92 but the Renoir only an 85. That makes absolutely no sense. But given the very subjective system used for grading baseball cards, we have this silly numerical scale. Why?

Because that's what people want. Market economy. Simple as that.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

That's not how it went down at all. You're putting your words in quotations as if that's what was actually said. Until Kevin mentioned it in post #80 ("I still would like to hear Joe's side of this"), no one even suggested that Joe come here and give his side of the story. It was Kevin that suggested that.

I could care less about Joe's side of the story. Sure, if he wants to come here and tell it, I will certainly listen with an open mind, but I'm darn sure not going to ask him to come here and I don't read in this thread where anybody else asked him to either. So what are you talking about?

Kevin supposedly called him, but can't tell us what he said?!? Come on, isn't that behaving like a third grader playing the 'I know something you don't know' game? Funny, but I think everybody pretty much feels that Joe's side of the story is irrelevant, otherwise somebody would have called him other than Kevin (supposedly).

You're wasting your time. In every thread which deals with fraud or criticism of a sacred cow in the hobby, there are a bunch of posters who will do all that they can to derail the thread or stop the criticism for reasons which have nothing to do with the truth -- usually it's financial motive. It happened with Mastro, it happened with Memory Lane, it happened with PWCC and it's happened with PSA.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Let us now praise sacred cows...

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Because that's what people want. Market economy. Simple as that.

Agreed.

[markf31]

Ironic this comes out now?

The Importance of Grading Context - by Joe Orlando

The Importance of Grading Context

When it comes to the grading of a collectible, the ability to understand the grade in context is of serious importance. While many collectors seem to understand this concept, it has been difficult to get others to comprehend the same thing. Sometimes, there is so much focus on the assigned grade - the number - that hobbyists can lose sight of what that number actually means.

One of the benefits of third-party grading is the contribution to better standardization, of both quality and value. In other words, while no two collectibles are identical, if both items are graded with the same number, there is a better understanding of the general quality of the item. As a result, there is a better understanding of the value once the grade is assigned.

There can be trouble, however, when hobbyists don't understand how context comes into play. For example, you could have 10 different cards and they may all be graded PSA EX-MT 6, but each one of them is different. Some have better corners, while others have better centering. Some have better color, while others have whiter borders. Therefore, there are variances within every grade.

There are some cards that barely made the assigned grade and others that barely missed the next grade higher. The result is pretty simple. Some cards will sell for a premium within the same grade based on that strength in quality, while others may fall a little short of the going rate for the grade because they are perceived as a weaker example. All of this is part of the process, a product of grade interpretation and the imperfect nature of grading itself.

The good news is that this is understood by most collectors and simply a part of the human-based system. It only becomes a problem when the variance is so enormous that Mint cards look like EX-MT cards or vice versa. Services that show that kind of grading inconsistency usually don't last long in the hobby, which is one major reason so many services have come and gone over the last 20 years.

Another grading issue, one which relates to context, is one that deals with items that are known as the finest example. While the grade of an item does affect the value, they are two mutually exclusive concepts. This is an issue that some collectors struggle with. They seemingly cannot separate the difference between grade AND value when appropriate.

For example, you may come across a bat, an autograph or a card where the finest known example is a 7. Even though the grading scale for all of PSA's services goes as high as 10, that doesn't mean that a 10 exists for that category. There are many instances, in a variety of collectible fields, where the best example known might "only" grade in the mid-range.

Some collectors feel that if the item is the best one of its kind, the scale should adjust based on that fact. I couldn't disagree more. If you adjust the scale based on scarcity, then the meaning of the grade is lost. It's alright if the best example in the world is a PSA 6 or a PSA 4. The market will often adjust and consider the scarcity when determining value. It happens all the time.

So, the moral of the story is that the grade is usually of extreme importance, but make sure you understand the grade in context. It will often help answer many questions you might have as a buyer or a seller.



Never get cheated,
Joe Orlando

Joe Orlando
Editor In Chief

And his closing, right above his signature!

[ullmandds]

Most importantly...NEVER GET CHEATED!!!

[wonkaticket]

[RobertGT]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Where can I order one of these? Do you accept paypal gift?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by RobertGT

Where can I order one of these? Do you accept paypal gift?

Make that 2, I wear an XL.

[calvindog]

"Never get cheated....except by us. Then it's ok and expected and if you don't like it we'll ban you from our boards."

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by calvindog

"Never get cheated....except by us. Then it's ok and expected and if you don't like it we'll ban you from our boards."

Yeah but that's tougher to fit in a sig line Jeff.

I like the new Wagner flip.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Love the T-Shirt!

[ullmandds]

Now that's a t-shirt I'd buy...with the slogan on the back..."Never get cheated....except by us. Then it's ok and expected and if you don't like it we'll ban you from our boards" ...and thr monkees on the front!!!!!

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Yeah but that's tougher to fit in a sig line Jeff.

I like the new Wagner flip.

FML that is funny.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

and thr monkees on the front!!!!!

Those are not just monkeys, those are their graders.

[midwaylandscaping]

Great thread
Would read again
5 stars

[glchen]

David, here was your quote from earlier in this thread:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I agree that Matt shouldn't have expected more than an offer to pay for the card but, in reading his story, I think what really put a bad taste in his mouth was Joe's attitude. When he told Joe he was sick about it, Joe basically told him it's just a bb card and to get over it. A good CSR would have been more empathetic. Had Joe been more understanding about it, I don't believe Matt would have ever posted this story and kept the situation to himself.

Now you're clarifying that with:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

That's not how it went down at all. You're putting your words in quotations as if that's what was actually said. Until Kevin mentioned it in post #80 ("I still would like to hear Joe's side of this"), no one even suggested that Joe come here and give his side of the story. It was Kevin that suggested that.

I could care less about Joe's side of the story. Sure, if he wants to come here and tell it, I will certainly listen with an open mind, but I'm darn sure not going to ask him to come here and I don't read in this thread where anybody else asked him to either. So what are you talking about?

Kevin supposedly called him, but can't tell us what he said?!? Come on, isn't that behaving like a third grader playing the 'I know something you don't know' game? Funny, but I think everybody pretty much feels that Joe's side of the story is irrelevant, otherwise somebody would have called him other than Kevin (supposedly).

So basically, now most people are saying that they really don't care what Joe's side of the story is, but this thread just gives everybody another opportunity to trash PSA, which many posters, of course, are more than happy to do.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by glchen

So basically, now most people are saying that they really don't care what Joe's side of the story is, but this thread just gives everybody another opportunity to trash PSA, which many posters, of course, are more than happy to do.

With what we know about PSA they deserve some trashing, and it's understandable that it happens on this board because dissension is not allowed on their own forum.