Black swamp Cy Young

[JoeyF1981]

Was surprised to see the Black Swamp Cy Young PSA 8 sold for $3800 lastnight (PWCC). Looked at the previous sale of it from mile high which was $5200. Looks like somebody got a pretty good deal

[cammb]

Or price was what it should have been.

[JoeyF1981]

Originally Posted by cammb

Or price was what it should have been.

Or that too!

[markf31]

Originally Posted by cammb

Or price was what it should have been.

I was about to agree with you, but a little more investigating revealed that considering on 5/6/12 a Memory Lane auction of a PSA 5 sold for $3,163.02 I tend to agree with the OP'er that someone got a pretty great deal on this one all facts considered.

[bobbyw8469]

I am certain that some of it has to do with some sort of PWCC backlash. Alot of people see these grossly obscene prices that some of these cards get for what they are. They see PWCC, and figure, I might as well not bid, as it is going to go stupid high anyway. That is my 2 cents anyway.

[ullmandds]

meh...high grade e98's are a dime a dozen!

[ullmandds]

AND...it's not even Cy Young to boot?!?!? So IMHO...4K for the type that says "cy young" attached to a pic of Irv...is kind of a ripoff!!!

[tbob]

I think the Swamp E98s are overpriced based on availability (now) and demand. Just wait until the rest of them make their way in to the hobby.
I still think most collectors are satisfied with a nice PSA 4 or 5 and won't pay the exorbitant amounts for one of the PSA 8s and 9s.

[smtjoy]

I agree with tbob, I think they have a lot lower to go. I think that is the second of 8 PSA 8's to have been sold I think the price has no where but down when the others come to market. Also looks like there are 11 PSA 7's so thats not going to help either. Too much supply for the demand at current prices.

[glchen]

I wonder if the Labor Day weekend had anything to do with the low price, and perhaps not everyone has recovered yet where they want to scout ebay for cards. I know that I picked up a few cards over the weekend on what I thought were pretty decent prices.

[Leon]

I just hope the 2 psa 8 commons, on ebay, eventually sell. I sort of get tired of seeing them day after day, week after week and month after month.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw...amp&_sacat=213



.

[thehoodedcoder]

i have done some reading about the swamp find. i will say it does sound rather implausible that such a large collection in such top shape existed miracuously without a scratch on them.

there is one way to find out....

crack one out and resubmit it and see if it comes back with a grade?

kevin

[Cardboard Junkie]

More than a few collectors are skeptical of their authenticity. I'm not sure a good counterfeit wouldn't get by a tpg.

[RCMcKenzie]

I don't believe the Black swamp cards 'find' story. If that makes me a bad guy, then so be it. They found the cards in grandpa's attic. My grandpa searched the garage for my mom's 52 Mantle and never found it. I sent in a Paul Pierce rookie that I carefully took from a pack and it graded lower than these cards.

[4815162342]

I chatted back and forth with a member of the family, and I promise you that the Black Swamp find cards are 100% authentic. There's no conspiracy here.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

More than a few collectors are skeptical of their authenticity. I'm not sure a good counterfeit wouldn't get by a tpg.

I have a friend that sent in 2 counterfeit cards that both came back as PSA 9's. The the card stock was way thinner than a real card and photo cropping was way off. The real crazy part was he sent a letter with the cards telling the differences between them and a real card.
PSA grades counterfeit, altered, and trimmed cards as real/unaltered everyday. Let alone all the over grading they do for "preferred customers".

[glynparson]

Still think Elvis is alive, we never landed on the moon and the world is flat. Not saying stuff des not go on but not to the extent some of these outrageous claims go. Sorry I do not believe you about your friend and the fake cards. Sorry dont and probably never will. I honestly feel in many cases the ignorance on the board is passing the knowledge.

[bnorth]

I understand your opinion. So were are the facts to back up what I say. Go to the billripken.com web site. Then go to the versions tab ant then click on the mystery card link. There is a pic of the counterfeit PSA graded card. I can supply even more info/pictures if needed.

Originally Posted by glynparson

Still think Elvis is alive, we never landed on the moon and the world is flat. Not saying stuff des not go on but not to the extent some of these outrageous claims go. Sorry I do not believe you about your friend and the fake cards. Sorry dont and probably never will. I honestly feel in many cases the ignorance on the board is passing the knowledge.

[glynparson]

I do not believe they have knowingly put fake cards on holders.

[atx840]

You think these cards have gotten by PSA & SGC and the countless e98 and vintage collectors who have seen them in person?

Why fabricate e98s? Why release that many at once and "flood" the market and open yourself up to one not making the cut? The family story was so detailed and involved a few dozen people...everyone was in on the scheme?

Not buying it.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by atx840

You think these cards have gotten by PSA & SGC and the countless e98 and vintage collectors who have seen them in person?

Why fabricate e98s? Why release that many at once and "flood" the market and open yourself up to one not making the cut? The family story was so detailed and involved a few dozen people...everyone was in on the scheme?

Not buying it.

Agreed. Anyone thinking those cards aren't real is wrong. Period.

[Cardboard Junkie]

I bet they are as real as the Blue "Old MIll" back.Dave.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

I bet they are as real as the Blue "Old MIll" back.Dave.

Bet whatever you want. They are real. If you don't think so, that is fine. It won't be the first or last time you are wrong.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

I bet they are as real as the Blue "Old MIll" back.Dave.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by glynparson

Sorry I do not believe you about your friend and the fake cards. Sorry dont and probably never will.

Originally Posted by glynparson

I do not believe they have knowingly put fake cards on holders.

Lol! You just got b1tch slapped with proof, then you're still apologizing for PSA. That's pretty pathetic!!!

Edite to add: He didn't say PSA knowingly puts fake cards in their holders. I think the point he was trying to make was that PSA lacks the compentance to tell the difference between a real card and a counterfeit one.

[xcgrammer]

They are no doubt real, I spent some time looking in person at the National. The one thing I don't understand is how some of the ones with serious tilt didn't get qualifiers. Does anyone know why this is????????????????

[glynparson]

On your edited response.There are a number of counterfeit cards in holders. Most are modern an easier to reproduce with similar materials,printing,etc. I do not believe any were put in with malice.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Originally Posted by glynparson

On your edited response.There are a number of counterfeit cards in holders. Most are modern an easier to reproduce with similar materials,printing,etc. I do not believe any were put in with malice.

It's not that they were put in with "malice", it's that they were put in at all.

[glynparson]

Though i feel there is a difference between ignorance and knowingly holdering garbage. I don't feel it excuses it just may explain it.

[RCMcKenzie]

If the world's foremost doctors could scientifically prove that Gisele Bundchen is 103 years old, I still would not believe it, even if it meant I was wrong.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Lol! You just got b1tch slapped with proof, then you're still apologizing for PSA. That's pretty pathetic!!!

Edite to add: He didn't say PSA knowingly puts fake cards in their holders. I think the point he was trying to make was that PSA lacks the compentance to tell the difference between a real card and a counterfeit one.

I'd hardly call his assessment of an odd 89 Fleer "proof" Especially when it has a number of technical errors and statements that follow no logic.

The odd Ripken might be fake, but his argument isn't at all convincing.

If someone said PSA had let some bad Fro-Joys through, I'd say yes. (But then, what company hasn't) And there's a huge difference between an E card and a modern card.

I'd also expect a few mistakes among 9.9 million items(Just baseball cards). One half of one percent mistakes is almost 50,000 cards.

Steve B

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by steve B

I'd hardly call his assessment of an odd 89 Fleer "proof" Especially when it has a number of technical errors and statements that follow no logic.

The article showed how to spot a real '89 Ripken FF error from a fake. I thought it was very informative (not that I collect that kind of stuff) and there are clearly many differences between the two. Then, he showed a picture of the fake residing in a PSA slab. Look below, Steve. What more "proof" do you need?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by steve B

I'd hardly call his assessment of an odd 89 Fleer "proof" Especially when it has a number of technical errors and statements that follow no logic.

The odd Ripken might be fake, but his argument isn't at all convincing.

If someone said PSA had let some bad Fro-Joys through, I'd say yes. (But then, what company hasn't) And there's a huge difference between an E card and a modern card.

I'd also expect a few mistakes among 9.9 million items(Just baseball cards). One half of one percent mistakes is almost 50,000 cards.

Steve B

My point was only that there are counterfeit cards in PSA holders that PSA put there. Most of the time I think it is just they look at too many cards too quickly to get them right all the time.
I know nothing about the Black Swamp cards and never questioned there authenticity.

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

I bet they are as real as the Blue "Old MIll" back.Dave.

Dave I was lucky enough to view that card in person both before and after the slabbing. Even under scrutiny from many in the hobby and SGC the card was deamed real. No doubt there was a printing issue that caused this neat error. Thats all the card is though, just an error. I am sure there will be another as time goes but till then it will always have a shadow because it's unique.

[Cardboard Junkie]

I Never saw the blue old mill in person. I do recall a T-206 reprint set made in the sixties, (maybe early 70's) that did not say reprint on them. They were good. In that set there were some odd colors used for the backs, and I think old mill was printed in green and/or blue. The fronts were real good. Brown toned names and cities. Correct dots (printing matrix) etc. These reprint sets were scarce at the time and I havent seen any in 30 years, I have no idea who produced them, some, I'm sure, have made it into authentic collections. jes sayin. Dave ps any other old timers remember those sets?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

The article showed how to spot a real '89 Ripken FF error from a fake. I thought it was very informative (not that I collect that kind of stuff) and there are clearly many differences between the two. Then, he showed a picture of the fake residing in a PSA slab. Look below, Steve. What more "proof" do you need?

I don't want to take this too far off the topic of the thread, and waited some time before posting what I did.

For those with no interest in modern stuff the short tale is this.

There's a handful of 89 Fleer Ripken errors that are very different from a normal 89 fleer card. On the site linked there are some good closeup scans and links to two different opinions about the odd card. One that lists a few reasons why it's fake, the other looks at it a bit more technically and reaches the opposite conclusion.

I'm ambivalent about the card. Some of the points that are made concluding it's fake are good ones. But the overall list has some errors of a technical nature that at least to me make it less credible.
There are a few things in the analysis that concludes it's real that I find convincing.

I wouldn't say that either analysis is a home run. I'd also say that at the moment I think the card is probably fake, but not as poor a fake as it's claimed to be. And I can easily see it passing at any grading company.
There are a few things that would convince me either way, but I haven't seen either addressed yet by anyone.

If I was doing the authenticating/grading I'd decline slabbing it pending more information.

I'd be happy to discuss the Ripken in detail over in the postwar section. (Or by email) I don't think it's productive or desirable to continue that discussion here.


Steve B

[4815162342]

I think it's hilarious that a 1989 Fleer Billy Ripken is brought up as so-called proof that the Black Swamp find 1910 E98s are fake. This board is a funny bunch sometimes!

Tinfoil Hat: "The Black Swamp find E98s are modern fakes."

Sanity: "No, they're real. We've seen them up close. They've been verified by Heritage, PSA, SGC, etc. Plus, the very nice family that found them has no reason to create such an elaborate scam."

Tinfoil Hat: "They're fake I tell you! I have proof!"

Sanity: "Umm, okay."

Tinfoil Hat: "Look at this 1989 Fleer Billy Ripken!"

Sanity: ". . ."

[ullmandds]

anyone who has seen and held a BSF E98 in their own hand...and still thinks it's fake...doesn't know how to recognize authentic vintage caramel card(s).

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by steve B

I don't want to take this too far off the topic of the thread, and waited some time before posting what I did.

For those with no interest in modern stuff the short tale is this.

There's a handful of 89 Fleer Ripken errors that are very different from a normal 89 fleer card. On the site linked there are some good closeup scans and links to two different opinions about the odd card. One that lists a few reasons why it's fake, the other looks at it a bit more technically and reaches the opposite conclusion.

I'm ambivalent about the card. Some of the points that are made concluding it's fake are good ones. But the overall list has some errors of a technical nature that at least to me make it less credible.
There are a few things in the analysis that concludes it's real that I find convincing.

I wouldn't say that either analysis is a home run. I'd also say that at the moment I think the card is probably fake, but not as poor a fake as it's claimed to be. And I can easily see it passing at any grading company.
There are a few things that would convince me either way, but I haven't seen either addressed yet by anyone.

If I was doing the authenticating/grading I'd decline slabbing it pending more information.

I'd be happy to discuss the Ripken in detail over in the postwar section. (Or by email) I don't think it's productive or desirable to continue that discussion here.


Steve B

Steve,

I don't feel that we took the thread of topic, it kind of drifted of topic on its own when others questioned the authenticity of the Black Swamp cards.

One member commented, "I'm not sure a good counterfeit wouldn't get by a tpg" and then another member added to that, "I have a friend that sent in 2 counterfeit cards that both came back as PSA 9's."

That's when Glyn commented, "Sorry I do not believe you about your friend..." basically calling the guy a liar. The member posted a link showing the differences between a real card and a counterfeit along with a picture of the counterfiet in a PSA slab.

Instead of apologizing to the member for calling him a liar, Glyn followed up by saying, "I do not believe they have knowingly put fake cards on holders." Well, nobody ever said they knowingly did it, but regardless, they did it.

The original question (comment) was, would a good counterfeit get by a TPG? It was proven so. That said, the era of the card shouldn't matter to prove or disprove the question. It's either a yes or a no.

Last, I have included a scan of the counterfeit (left) with a scan of a real graded card (right). How can you say there is no difference? All you have to do is look at the left and right borders of the picture. See how the picture is cropped on the counterfeit and you see more of the picture on the real card? I'll ask the question again, "What more 'proof' do you need?"

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

I think it's hilarious that a 1989 Fleer Billy Ripken is brought up as so-called proof that the Black Swamp find 1910 E98s are fake. This board is a funny bunch sometimes!

Nobody ever said that the Ripken was proof that the Black Swamp cards were fake or even made the comparison between the two. Where do you read that???

The question was raised, could a TPG slab a counterfeit card. It was proven so with a Ripken card. Nobody made the comparison that just because the Ripken was fake that the Black Swamp cards were too.

[pcoz]

I agree there is too much supply right now for the demand, as collectors congregate for all Ruth items and super high end stuff. But, there will be a day the caramels come back into the fold. If you think about it, even after the BSF find, there are approximately 75 cards(including the BSF cards) per player. MANY of the E98's in the Pop reports have been crossed as well. I myself have crossed a bunch. So, putting it in even more perspective, there are over 100 Ruth RC's known. Not to sound like a banana putting Ruth in the same sentence with the E98's, just making the point they're not overly abundant on the whole. I think it's a great time for E98 or caramel collectors to get them on the cheap right now.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Last, I have included a scan of the counterfeit (left) with a scan of a real graded card (right). How can you say there is no difference? All you have to do is look at the left and right borders of the picture. See how the picture is cropped on the counterfeit and you see more of the picture on the real card? I'll ask the question again, "What more 'proof' do you need?"

David,

First, I am not saying you are incorrect in the Ripken instance regarding the fake and cropping, but cropping variances alone are not proof of fake cards in other instances. I believe the 1963 Topps (along with other issues as well) have quite a bit of cropping variations of what is displayed within the border.

Cropping differences are definitely something to look for, but I just wanted to point out that these differences alone are not a validation of a counterfeit in all cases.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Steve,

I don't feel that we took the thread of topic, it kind of drifted of topic on its own when others questioned the authenticity of the Black Swamp cards.

One member commented, "I'm not sure a good counterfeit wouldn't get by a tpg" and then another member added to that, "I have a friend that sent in 2 counterfeit cards that both came back as PSA 9's."

That's when Glyn commented, "Sorry I do not believe you about your friend..." basically calling the guy a liar. The member posted a link showing the differences between a real card and a counterfeit along with a picture of the counterfiet in a PSA slab.

Instead of apologizing to the member for calling him a liar, Glyn followed up by saying, "I do not believe they have knowingly put fake cards on holders." Well, nobody ever said they knowingly did it, but regardless, they did it.

The original question (comment) was, would a good counterfeit get by a TPG? It was proven so. That said, the era of the card shouldn't matter to prove or disprove the question. It's either a yes or a no.

Last, I have included a scan of the counterfeit (left) with a scan of a real graded card (right). How can you say there is no difference? All you have to do is look at the left and right borders of the picture. See how the picture is cropped on the counterfeit and you see more of the picture on the real card? I'll ask the question again, "What more 'proof' do you need?"

Yes, the pictures are cropped differently.

But remember we're talking about a card that has what? at least 3-4 different corrected versions. And in a set where another card has several different versions to cover up a billboard that shouldn't have been shown.
Fleer also used multiple printing plants during that time, as did Donruss and Topps. There are so many differences it's nearly impossible to track them all. (Almost like T206 )

So different cropping alone isn't enough to condemn the card.

It's different enough that I'd need something more concrete wither way.

The dissenting opinion from the same site is here.
http://www.billripken.com/mystery/mystery1b/report.html

I can't tell if you only read the one opinion, in which case you're missing a few bits of information. Or if you read both and disregarded one that didn't match your opinion of TPG. Either is fine, but I have less respect for disregarding something that doesn't match what you want to hear.

None of which makes the card real or fake.
It does mean that it's debatable.
And for that I wouldn't have slabbed it.

It's odd that there's only 5 or 6 known. Maybe there are really hundreds, and they're lost in the millions of other Ripkens, but that's very unusual for a counterfeit. Nearly all of the ones produced during that time were produced by the hundreds if not thousands.
And I don't believe it was printed on a photo printer from a photoshopped scan.
If someone has a scanner that can duplicate the detail shown in the other report I linked to above they wouldn't have any reason to use photoshop to rearrange the entire front of the card. They could simply use the detailed scan and have it appear identical.

If you want, I'll gladly go into detail about where both opinions are weak, but I do think we should take that discussion somewhere else.

I'll even start the thread over in the post 1980 area if you want. Or anyone else for that matter, does anyone want to discuss 89 Fleer in detail?


I would also agree that TPG has slabbed fakes. It's bound to happen on occasion, maybe with the Ripken, certainly with Fro-Joys.

The sheer number of people who saw the E98s before slabbing and after who know cards very well and see no problems with them makes me think the black swamp cards are just fine.

Steve B

[bnorth]

Link to Bill Ripken PSA 9 discussion. http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=175607

[danmckee]

Not sold on Black Swamp cards, they look too new with name and team font awfully dark and black like recently printed. I won't touch them.

[scooter729]

Maybe we should just take PSA's word for it.

I once heard that I could get a good look at a T-bone by sticking my head up a bull's ass, but I'd rather take the butcher's word for it.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by scooter729

Maybe we should just take PSA's word for it.

I once heard that I could get a good look at a T-bone by sticking my head up a bull's ass, but I'd rather take the butcher's word for it.

Nice 'Tommy Boy' reference