Mastro Set to get 30 months or less- NY Daily News

[Leon]

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Mastro Set to get 30 months or less- NY Daily News-

It's coffee talk time (does a shooing motion with hands). Y'all talk amongst yourselves....



http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-...icle-1.1306273



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[ullmandds]

Hmmm...our politico-legal system at work!? What a lame judgment...it pays to have friends in high places...it pays a lot!

[conor912]

Less than $70k my a$$

[Peter_Spaeth]

Interesting brief by the government. They justify not getting an agreement to testify against Allen on the ground that Mastro was candid in an interview. Their calculation of the amount involved seems quite low, to say the least.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In considering what might constitute a sufficient, but not greater than
necessary term of imprisonment, the government also considered mitigating evidence
presented by defense counsel concerning Mastro’s character. This included information
about Mastro’s personal and family history, and conduct that was unrelated to the
offense but provided insight into the government’s assessment Mastro’s risk to
recidivate. The government expects defense counsel to present this information to the
Court at sentencing, in the event the Court accepts the proposed plea agreement. The
government’s assessment however, was that a below-guidelines sentence (assuming the
correctness of the government’s calculation) would be appropriate.

[Jewish-collector]

Does that mean Mastro won't be speaking at this year's Net54 dinner ?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Many potential bidders knew or should have known that shill bidding
was present in the auction, but were willing to pay an inflated value of an
item in order to own it. In such instances, there was no fraud.
C In instances where the bidding far exceeded the last shill bid, there was
no harm or loss incurred. Instead, the item went for its fair market value.
C The value of the item won and purchased has since increased. As such,
there is no loss to the winning bidder.

[conor912]

I guess it begs the question, if someone is willing to pay it, no matter how high, does that automatically make it the fair market value?

[Tony Gordon]

The way I read the story, Mastro wasn't sentenced or even convicted yet. The story is based on the Fed's brief explaining why they agreed to the 30-month plea deal. The judge still has to approve the deal.

I find nonsensical the assertion that Mastro's brother, the former deputy mayor of NY, has influenced the federal court in Chicago.

[botn]

From the article:

"In a memorandum filed in Chicago federal court on Tuesday, Assistant United States Attorney Nancy DePodesta acknowledged that prosecutors believe Mastro stole up to $1 million from collectors through shill bidding, while Mastro’s defense team says the one-time king of cards stole less than $70,000 from bidders."

Whether it was 70K, a million or something in between, even at 1 million that pales in comparison to what each of the top card doctors take off of collectors every year. Does not take many PSA 10s or SGC 98s to get to a million bucks.

Not saying shill bidding should not be stopped but think the Feds were placed on the wrong trail if they really wanted to clean up the hobby.

[glynparson]

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The value of the item won and purchased has since increased. As such,
there is no loss to the winning bidder.

so what happens AFTER a crime is committed is a means for making the crime less punishable?

i can see it now ... "your honour, everyone i killed was going to die one day anyway"

[bn2cardz]

"Mastro acknowledged “having cut the sides to the T206 Honus Wagner card despite prior statements to the contrary,” the papers said."

Wouldn't this admission be enough to determine that the fraud was over $70k?

[lharri3600]

Well,
I just don't get it. A poor guy robs the corner 7-11 and get 25 years and a guy steals who knows how much (more than 70k IMO) and gets less than 4 years. I guess it does pay to have $$ and buddies in high places.
May I add this "time" will be spent at a federal country club!! what a racket!!

[lharri3600]

That a boy, blame the victims!! That's the American way I guess)
.
Auction houses earn their money by charging buyers and consigners a percentage of the final price of an item they sell, and DePodesta’s filing said numerous consigners helped Mastro jack up the prices of items in his auctions.

Bidders played a role, too, the document said: “Many potential bidders knew or should have known that shill bidding was present in the auction, but were willing to pay an inflated value of an item in order to own it.”

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-...#ixzz2PR5ck5RX

[jcmtiger]

30 months seems ok to me. I know someone who murdered his wife and only spent 8 years in prison. As far as the guy robbing a 7-11 and getting 25 years, he will spend less than 1/2 of that in prison. And he was probably brandishing a gun. I know a lot of collectors want him to be hanged, but think about it.

Joe

[cubsfan-budman]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

"mastro acknowledged “having cut the sides to the t206 honus wagner card despite prior statements to the contrary,” the papers said."

wouldn't this admission be enough to determine that the fraud was over $70k?

this

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by botn

From the article:

"In a memorandum filed in Chicago federal court on Tuesday, Assistant United States Attorney Nancy DePodesta acknowledged that prosecutors believe Mastro stole up to $1 million from collectors through shill bidding, while Mastro’s defense team says the one-time king of cards stole less than $70,000 from bidders."

Whether it was 70K, a million or something in between, even at 1 million that pales in comparison to what each of the top card doctors take off of collectors every year. Does not take many PSA 10s or SGC 98s to get to a million bucks.

Not saying shill bidding should not be stopped but think the Feds were placed on the wrong trail if they really wanted to clean up the hobby.

Well in fairness they did bring in the Wagner, although I am on record as agreeing with you repeatedly that card doctoring is a much bigger problem than shill bidding. Speaking of which, will David Hall continue to insist the Wagner was good in the face of a court submission?

[botn]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Well in fairness they did bring in the Wagner, although I am on record as agreeing with you repeatedly that card doctoring is a much bigger problem than shill bidding.

That is 1 of probably hundreds of thousands of altered cards floating around in graded holders.

Speaking of which, will David Hall continue to insist the Wagner was good in the face of a court submission?

Grading companies do not like to buy back cards. And typically they don't unless they are forced. Once the holder is sealed, the card is graded correctly.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Well in fairness they did bring in the Wagner, although I am on record as agreeing with you repeatedly that card doctoring is a much bigger problem than shill bidding. Speaking of which, will David Hall continue to insist the Wagner was good in the face of a court submission?

Well I guess it's a matter of how you prefer to be defrauded.
I guess maybe in terms of sheer magnitude and total monetary effect.

[ullmandds]

Funny...I stumbled upon this book today at 1/2 price books and couldn't resist for $6. It's actually a very entertaining book featuring many real images of vintage cards we all know and love...not just most generic stuff. I mean how cool is this raw goudey tobacco box image???!!!!

Maybe it was these such intangibles...ie bookmaking skills...that got Bill's proposed sentence downsized?!?!

[packs]

Edited out.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Well I guess it's a matter of how you prefer to be defrauded.
I guess maybe in terms of sheer magnitude and total monetary effect.

+1

Card doctoring mostly affects the geniuses collecting mint tobacco cards (post war too)

As far as Bill, at least he didn't rat on his friends, I respect him for that.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Very interesting. The 30 month sentence does seem rather light - especially since Mastro won't testify against Allen according to the article. The $70K amount does seem very low in my opinion. Of course Doug Allen will likely be accountable for a significant amount of money lost due to the shill bidding too.

As for the card doctoring, I agree that it is a huge problem and believe me I've tried to get law enforcement involved at a Federal, state and local level. I know that several card doctors are aware of my failed efforts and sadly, it's empowered them that much more since they know how hard it is to get law enforcement to take the issue seriously. It's all very sad.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Very interesting. The 30 month sentence does seem rather light - especially since Mastro won't testify against Allen according to the article. The $70K amount does seem very low in my opinion. Of course Doug Allen will likely be accountable for a significant amount of money lost due to the shill bidding too.

As for the card doctoring, I agree that it is a huge problem and believe me I've tried to get law enforcement involved at a Federal, state and local level. I know that several card doctors are aware of my failed efforts and sadly, it's empowered them that much more since they know how hard it is to get law enforcement to take the issue seriously. It's all very sad.

Dan- you have done, and tried to do, more than almost anyone else in the hobby to help with getting the doctoring culprits out of the hobby. I know what you went through (and it was a LOT). I applaud you for that. Your actions haven't gone unnoticed.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

+1

Card doctoring mostly affects the geniuses collecting mint tobacco cards (post war too).

Which is why I only collect up to EX in pre-war. I refuse to believe that a little piece of cardboard can survive 70 plus years and not get a few dings on it.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

+1

Card doctoring mostly affects the geniuses collecting mint tobacco cards (post war too)

As far as Bill, at least he didn't rat on his friends, I respect him for that.

I like this post.

I also like the one you were responding to, regarding "how you prefer to be defrauded." I prefer extravagant shipping costs, but having your pet shill me up to my ceiling bid is also fairly pain-free. You are also free to trim the edges off of a card, but please slip and cut off the end of your finger while doing so.

[botn]

Card doctoring is not just done on high grade, fellas. It is done on any card which offers itself to being improved. From Good to Ex can be a nice pay day on Cobb, Ruth or 35 T206 commons. This is not just the deep pocket collectors who are impacted. I collect mainly lower to mid grade and I come across lots of altered cards. I pass on far more purchases than I should have to.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Leon

Dan- you have done, and tried to do, more than almost anyone else in the hobby to help with getting the doctoring culprits out of the hobby. I know what you went through (and it was a LOT). I applaud you for that. Your actions haven't gone unnoticed.

Thanks Leon and you've done quite a bit yourself by just taking a tough stand against these same parties that "lawyered up" and tried to get these incriminating threads deleted and got nowhere and they paid a tidy legal bill in the process. You've won my utmost respect and believe me, I've also witnessed a number of people the past five years who talked a great game but when they received a cease and desist letter or were subpoenaed after complaining about being ripped-off they folded like a cheap lawn chair even though their comments were privileged. Keep up the great work!

[conor912]

Originally Posted by botn

Card doctoring is not just done on high grade, fellas. It is done on any card which offers itself to being improved. From Good to Ex can be a nice pay day on Cobb, Ruth or 35 T206 commons. This is not just the deep pocket collectors who are impacted. I collect mainly lower to mid grade and I come across lots of altered cards. I pass on far more purchases than I should have to.

I 100% agree, but if there's a segment (i.e. high grade pre-war) that I can all-together ignore, then all the better.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

+1

As far as Bill, at least he didn't rat on his friends, I respect him for that.

He desperately tried to "rat" on his friends from the first day. His lawyer indicated on day 1 that Bill was cooperating against his "friends." Ever think that the government couldn't use him because he was simply unable to tell the truth?

[E93]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Card doctoring mostly affects the geniuses collecting mint tobacco cards (post war too)

Are you being serious? That is simply not true. If there is money to be made by ironing out a crease and turning a card from gd to ex, you better believe the doctors are doing it.
JimB

[E93]

Just saw that Greg said almost exactly the same thing in post #28.
JimB

[Runscott]

Sharpen a card and you not only make a mint, but you create a supposedly NM card that is physically less of a card than it was when it came out of the tobacco pack. No, I don't want anyone adding color to a fr-gd card and turning it into a g-vg, but if somehow one slips by me, I'm not out near as much money as I would be if I unholdered a trimmed high-grade card.

I'm not for altering a card in any way, but there is a huge difference between ironing out a crease and trimming the edges. And while the grading companies quite frequently miss trimmings (non-maliciously in many instances), it would be ridiculous for them to miss re-coloring, gluing down paper, or adding paper to a card. I know they've done it, but it's inexcusable.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by E93

Are you being serious? That is simply not true. If there is money to be made by ironing out a crease and turning a card from gd to ex, you better believe the doctors are doing it.
JimB

Jim, I personally don't use the same grading scale as tpg, I don't see a big difference between an excellent card with one flaw and a straight excellent card. I place no value in technical condition. It's all eye appeal for me, I even think some wear is kinda pretty. A very small percentage of what I have is in "excellent" condition. I'm pretty confident that I can tell, on the issues that I collect, whether or not a card is altered. With that being said, I wasn't really being serious, I was joking around, card doctoring is a serious issue.