T215 Red Cross actually a T206?

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Clayton - You hit the nail on the head. Many people fall into the "looks like a duck/must be a duck" camp. When in actuality there are other factors beyond the cards appearances that contradict them being part of the same set.

It's difficult to sway anyone's opinion on the subject as there are enough key points to craft an argument for or against.

Thanks Tim, I appreciate that.

Barry, you're welcome, but I'm sure you thought the same thing And, it's the only thing I could come up with; I'm no expert by any means.

TedZ.- I'm probably wrong, but I've always been on the fence about these cards being "pack stiffeners".....I'm probably alone on this, but sometimes it doesn't make sense to me. First, the cards aren't that "thick" (in my opinion);I don't know how effective they would be as "stiffeners". Second, if they were stiffeners, why wouldn't Polar Bear cards be "thicker" than say, Piedmont or Sweet Caporal (or, any other T206 brand cards)? I would think that since they were packaged in pouches, they would make PB's thicker? And finally, what did Piemont (or any of the other T206 brands) use as a pack stiffener before T206 cards? It surely wasn't these coupons, they are paper thin.

These are some of the things that make it hard for me to believe that they would go out of there way to use a whole different paper stock, on this 1st series T-213, but still intend it to be a T206. It's just one of the things that don't make sense to me. Add on the fact that you have the other two series of Coupon, which seem to be a direct result of differentiating (intentionally) this series APART from T206,,,and this isn't even getting into T206 350 subject series.....

Just my thoughts, I just don't think these cards were meant to be T206's.

Thanks for the replies, I love this topic

Sincerely, Clayton

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

TedZ.- I'm probably wrong, but I've always been on the fence about these cards being "pack stiffeners".....I'm probably alone on this, but sometimes it doesn't make sense to me. First, the cards aren't that "thick" (in my opinion);I don't know how effective they would be as "stiffeners".

Cardboard stiffiners inserted in Cigarette packs date back to the 19th Century. In 1887-1888 some genius was smart to place (or print) images on these 2 1/2" x 1 1/2"
pieces of cardboard of Sports figures, Militarymen, Movie Stars, Animals, etc. OLD JUDGE, GOODWIN, and KIMBALL were some of the first to do this.

And, recall that the Cigarette packs (circa 1909-1919) had 2 cards inserted in them.

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

And finally, what did Piemont (or any of the other T206 brands) use as a pack stiffener before T206 cards?

Prior to the T206 era there were numerous Non-Sports premiums used for this purpose. Check out a NON-SPORTS catalog and you will be surprised what was available.

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

These are some of the things that make it hard for me to believe that they would go out of there way to use a whole different paper stock, on this 1st series T-213, but still intend it to be a T206.It's just one of the things that don't make sense to me.

I have already reponded to you regarding this in my Post #16. Was I clear enough in my response ?
If not, I will try once more.

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

Add on the fact that you have the other two series of Coupon, which seem to be a direct result of differentiating (intentionally) this series APART from T206,,,and this isn't even getting into T206 350 subject series.....

Just my thoughts, I just don't think these cards were meant to be T206's.

Thanks for the replies, I love this topic

Sincerely, Clayton

The T213-2 & T213-3 were printed and issued post T206 era (circa 1913-1919). The 1910 COUPON set was printed and issued during the T206 era (Spring/Summer 1910)
when American Lithographic was running their 350 Series cards. What else do you need to know ?


TED Z

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Cardboard stiffiners inserted in Cigarette packs date back to the 19th Century. In 1887-1888 some genius was smart to place (or print) images on these 2 1/2" x 1 1/2"
pieces of cardboard of Sports figures, Militarymen, Movie Stars, Animals, etc. OLD JUDGE, GOODWIN, and KIMBALL were some of the first to do this.

And, recall that the Cigarette packs (circa 1909-1919) had 2 cards inserted in them.




Prior to the T206 era there were numerous Non-Sports premiums used for this purpose. Check out a NON-SPORTS catalog and you will be surprised what was available.




I have already reponded to you regarding this in my Post #16. Was I clear enough in my response ?
If not, I will try once more.



The T213-2 & T213-3 were printed and issued post T206 era (circa 1913-1919). The 1910 COUPON set was printed and issued during the T206 era (Spring/Summer 1910)
when American Lithographic was running their 350 Series cards. What else do you need to know ?


TED Z

Ted, no need to get hostile. As I said in the begining of my post, I've always "been on the fence" about pack stiffeners- and that I was "probably alone on this" meaning- I'm unclear about certain things.

I am aware of the non-sport issues, and I am aware of the "pack stiffeners" theory (I call it theory, no one else) and maybe they were "pack stiffeners". But, after you picking apart my response, I'm still not convinced that T213-1's were printed on different stock because "they weren't" pack stiffeners

I've read many places that T206 cards were printed "at the factories". Now, that's been changed to "everything was printed at the ALC". I thought, well, maybe there was some truth to "something" being printed at the factories, and it made sense to me that maybe some of the backs (later on in the series, 350-460) could have been printed at the factories, seeing that it's one solid color, one pass. Send the pre-printed sheets to the factories to have the backs printed accordingly. NO ONE agrees with me on this And I can't prove it. Anyhow, I'm just trying to point out to you that my OPINION is not usually the popular one So no need to get bent out of shape

And if no 10 count pack of Coupon's has been found, as you said, how can you be sure that's why they used a thinner paper stock? Still confused.......

Sincerely, Clayton

[teetwoohsix]

I want to move away from the "pack stiffeners" thing, but I wanted to point out that "soft pack" cigarettes are still sold to this day- with NO stiffeners used at all. The tight packaging (thin tin foil, wrapped in a thin paper package, wrapped in thin celophane) is all you need.

I like to think that these cards were just what they were advertised as:

Handsomely lithographed pictures in colors of famous professional baseball players in the major leagues, now in all 5c packages of SWEET CAPORAL, PIEDMONT, and SOVEREIGN Cigarettes....

Every baseball enthusiast in the United States should secure this superb series of pictures *pack stiffeners* Start collecting today !!!!! lol

Sincerely, Clayton

[RCMcKenzie]

t215cranf.jpg

t215cranb.jpg

Brief history, One of my first vintage buys was at the Astrodome Marriot show around 1981. I bought an Evers superprint coupon 1 back instead of a piedmont back b/c it was 1/3 the price. Prices have caught up in the last few years to about carolina brights prices.

I basically agree with Scot Reader's assessment (my paraphrasing) that, yeah, they messed up, but the horse has already left the barn and we'd have to start all over with a new catalog system.

[E93]

Barry,
Regarding T207 Red Cross, though I am no expert on the set my guess as to why their inclusion has not been questioned is that there are no other sets that use T207 fronts, and the Red Cross backs are just like other T207s with bios and stats, right?
JimB

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by E93

Barry,
Regarding T207 Red Cross, though I am no expert on the set my guess as to why their inclusion has not been questioned is that there are no other sets that use T207 fronts, and the Red Cross backs are just like other T207s with bios and stats, right?
JimB

Hi Jim- I agree that makes perfect sense for the T207 series, but since T-215 shares many of the same fronts as T206, why did Burdick not include this as part of T206? Is it because some are found with brown captions, and some with blue ones? And I wonder given the extreme rarity of T207 Red Cross, did Burdick even know of their existence? It's possible he never even saw one.

[Abravefan11]

Barry - My guess would be that if Burdick was aware of the T207 Red Cross back, that there wasn't anything about those cards that led him to believe they were a separate issue. Possibly he just saw the Red Cross as one of several brands used in the same issue like many other sets of the time.

With T215-1 and T213-1, as many others have said before me, there were differences that may have led to him classifying them the way he did. With both sets it could have been due to there also being other types. The T213-1's could have been the paper stock and the T215-1's could have been the caption changes. We'll never know for sure what he was thinking.