T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

OK, I'll post mine. Used to collect cards when I was younger in the late 80's. My last name is Mullen. At that time I bought a T206 Mullen portrait for about $20 and a Tinker, Evers, Chance for about $25 each (the same missing red Tinker in my avatar). Fast forward to 2007 when I happened to go thru some old things and I found these 4 cards. I was just getting started with playing poker and I told myself that it would be a fun project to try and put the set together. Fast forward to today and I'm at 506. My set consists of some rare backs (Lenox), 2 signed (both Larry Doyle), a scrap (Lucky Wright), a blank back, a card with a ton of extra color that bled all over the card, and a Harry Davis Phila. Amep (instead of Phila. Amer.). My set (and my overall collection) has solely been built with poker and sports betting winnings. Although I'm up a good amount overall, it hasn't been all smooth sailing (as I've had to sell 2 green Cobb's, a signed Larry Doyle, a Lenox, and a couple others hahaha).

Brendan,

Since we last talked about the Davis "AMEP" I've seen several new ones.
Previously all of them were PD150's but recently I've seen a couple of SC150/649's.
Daves AMEP SC 150-649 - Copy - Copy.jpg
These are all PD150's
img244.jpg
PD 150 A - Copy.jpg
PD150 B - Copy.jpg
PD150 C - Copy.jpg

[Bpm0014]

Brendan,

Since we last talked about the Davis "AMEP" I've seen several new ones.
Previously all of them were PD150's but recently I've seen a couple of SC150/649's.

Wow. I think this is a pretty neat card that hasn't really got any respect yet. It's truly no different than the 'nodgrass or the Dopner, and there may be less examples.

[tedzan]

Hi Ron and Brendan

Some very interesting stories, thanks for sharing them with us.



TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


v......................... PIEDMONT 150 ..........................v....................... .... PIEDMONT 350.........................v



Jan 2006....The novelty of completing a 2nd set was short-lived. Indeed, The Monster had me "hooked". Going thru set #2, I noticed that 44% of the cards were Piedmont's.
This fact inspired me to embark on a new adventure....PIEDMONT-only set. I figured that it should be somewhat easy, since American Litho printed over 50% of the T206's
they produced with the Piedmont advertisements. In the 1st decade of the 20th Century, Piedmont was the "Flagship" brand of the American Tobacco Company.

I broke up this set and started converting Sweet Caporal, Sovereign, Polar Bear, etc. cards to Piedmont cards. The first smart move in this process was getting together with
Dave Czuba (who I had helped complete his 520-card set). We had a great trading session, trading his Piedmont T206's for whatever other T206 brands in my set. When the
"smoke" cleared, my new set's Piedmont population increased to 67%.

My first milestone was reached in May 2006 upon completing the run of the...... PIEDMONT 150 series

Example sheet from my album
.

It was more or less "smooth sailing" from that point on to acquiring the remaining Piedmont Stars and Commons to achieve the goal of a 518-card set. The only dif-
ficult cards I encountered were certain Southern Leaguers with Piedmont 350 backs. Three of them are shown at the top of this page (Breitenstein, Shaughnessy and
Foster). In fact, most of the Southern Leaguers (which were originally printed with brown HINDU backs) were tough to find with Piedmont 350 backs.

Nov 2006....initial Mission Accomplished...... 518-card PIEDMONT-only set.

Eventually, I acquired a MAGIE to update this set to 519 cards.

June 2007....I found a card which I refer to as a "poor man's" substitute for the Joe Doyle Nat'L. Check out this thread regarding.... "Poor man's" Joe Doyle error
Finally, my PIEDMONT set was complete with 520 cards.



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -^ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Printer's Mark - - - -^ (remnant of "N" in Nat'L)



Stay tuned for my 4th set, which was quite a challenge. Meanwhile, I look forward to hearing of your T206 set experiences.


TED Z
.

[Ronnie73]

Ted, those cards look great in the pages. Since i'm more of a PSA Registry kinda collector, I do at some point plan on building a raw good condition set for a binder. I probably will build with Piedmont, Sweet Caporal, Polar Bear, Sovereign's and Old Mill. I'll probably keep it at 520.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

I got somewhat of a late start on my T206 collection. I didn't get serious about the cards and the set until 2010. Before that, I spent time collecting post-war cards, coins, stamps, and comic books from 1982 to 2009. I had a small number of T206's before really being interested in them. All low grade commons. I don't really count them as the start. My start and what I still call my first T206 set purchase in 2010 was a Hooks Wiltse Pitching. I remember scanning the pages of ebay looking for something special to officially start my set. Viewing the scans of the fronts & backs and looking for hidden gems. Then I found it. Wiltse Pitching PSA 2 with a blurry scan of the Piedmont 350-460 back. Even with the blurry scan, I could tell the factory line was longer (factory 42) than all the other Piedmont backs. So I hit the Buy It Now for $44.95 and have been hooked ever since. My first 5 purchases over the first month consisted of four Piedmont 42's and a Bob Groom Tolstoi Back. In my second month on my ninth purchase, I bought a Bob Groom Polar Bear. Nine cards in and i'm playing with the idea of a Front/Back combo set. I'm currently at 1249 different Front/Back combo's and that number has no Piedmont's except for Factory 42's and no Sweet Caporals. Within the 1249 cards, I'm ten cards away from a 520 set. The only complete back sub-set within the 1249 is the Old Mill SL set. I'm 5 away from a Sovereign 460 set, 3 being super prints and 2 others. I'm 40 away from a Polar Bear set and have the Demmitt St Louis. One sub-set I have that I don't count in my 1249 different cards is the Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 "No Print" Scraps, 27 different cards including Cobb Bat Off. When these were listed on ebay, only 27 different cards showed up even though I believe it is a 28 card set. I believe this is the most complete set intact. I also know David Hall has a decent amount of the set too but don't know which ones he's missing. All I can say is its been a fun 7 years since starting this set and I owe Net54 and the experts for much of it. Thank you.

Hi Ron

This is a very impressive story, and thanks for sharing it with us.

It's interesting that you noted that your T206 collection does not have any Piedmont Factory #25 cards; and, I just posted my story regarding my Piedmont (Factory #25) set.

I'm curious....regarding your Sweet Cap 350-460 Factory 30 Scraps (27 cards)....are these all the same subjects (in post #8 here) which I identified as the Group B subjects ?


TED Z
.

[Bpm0014]

"poor man's" substitute for a Joe Doyle Nat'L. Check out this thread regarding the.... "Poor man's" Joe Doyle error

Ted, I have one of these. Pretty pronounced. I bought it solely based on your thread. Do these command a premium?

[tedzan]

Hi Brendan

I haven't tracked these Joe Doyle (with the printer's mark) cards in recent times, so I cannot really give you a good answer to your question.

When we first (circa 2007) brought attention to this printer's mark, I recall that cards advertised with it were selling for a premium.

Perhaps, some one on this forum can chime in and give you a current response to your question.

Thanks,

TED Z
.

[Bpm0014]

Thanks Ted, I would appreciate it. I always enjoy your knowledge and the hard work you put into your T206 stories, and theories, etc. Good job.

[Thromdog]

My story isn't overly interesting. I started collecting the monster in June of 2013 while on vacation in Destin, Florida. I bought a Tim Jordan batting PSA 3 from PWCC. Paid $26. I basically bought anything I felt was a good price for the condition and then started buying lots to help knock off the needed list. Condition varied.

Last card I bought to get to 520 was a Cobb red portrait with an Old Mill back. It's a PSA 2mk with a stamp on the back. Beautiful card for the grade.

Since then I've been upgrading my set when I find good deals.

Also, back in 2014, I won about 15 EPDGs that were individually listed auctions from JustCollect. Either they or their consignors had purchased a large EPDG lot from REA and was breaking it up. I sat on those until the fall of 2015 and decided to try to get to 100 EPDGs. Then it became 200 EPDGs. Not sure how far I will go but I currently am at 217 unique ones. I need to update my collage, 3 more need to be added.....apologies on the size of the picture if it skews the screen. I've only added about 5 this year. Been tough finding ones I need. Condition varies from trimmed sides and top to highest graded examples.....Lindaman SGC 70, Fiene throwing PSA 6, and my favorite Frank Smith PSA 6. Don't have any of the biggest HOFers, and probably won't end up buying those, but am happy I've gotten this far. Gonna have to sell them off at some point.

[KingFisk]

I picked up four T206s this week, all with HOF subjects and my first EPDG back. These four cards put me at 260 - squarely in the middle of what I hope to achieve will be a 520 card set.

I started collecting the T206s last year, when I picked up a Walter Johnson (Hands at Chest) to complete my 3,000 strikeout club collection. Owning that very old piece of cardboard caused a sea change in what I wanted to focus on.

I went on a tear of buying, centered around buying about 200 PSA 3 cards, mostly commons, off of a guy on eBay. This was where the bulk of my acquisitions came from. By all VCP accounts, this was a good deal and gave me an instant collection.

In a lot of ways I regret how I've approached the Monster so far. I wish I had spent the money from the lot on Ty Cobbs, and other expensive cards instead. I don't own any of the Cobbs and the prices on the portraits as we all know have gone insane recently. I am now afraid I am priced out of getting nice low grade ones, especially the green. I also regret not looking at a few of the cards I bought on eBay more closely. In my newness and eagerness to acquire, I did not put a careful eye on cards that look to be trimmed in their slabs. I am somewhat certain that a couple of my moderately pricy HOF cards may have had a little haircut along the way.

So almost one year later I am much farther along than I expected to be at this point thanks to that lot. But I am recalibrating my approach - slowing down and going for the HOF and SL cards first, banking on the hope that most of the VG commons will stay relatively stable in price.

This has been such a joy to collect so far - connecting with the game's past, and America's past, really. I have loved following the the threads on here and am constantly referring back to the work that guys like Scot Reader and Ted Z have done. And I am really loving Luke's blog. It's an amazing quilt of research and detective work, and my hats off to all of you.

I am a small time, JV player in the Monster game but the thrills are immeasurable whenever I acquire a new little piece of 108 year-old cardboard. Thanks to Net 54 for the inspiration and the knowledge.

[Ronnie73]

Hi Ted, Yes, the 28 cards in Group B. Lajoie With Bat never showed up but all the others came up with between 2 and 8 cards each.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Ron

This is a very impressive story, and thanks for sharing it with us.

It's interesting that you noted that your T206 collection does not have any Piedmont Factory #25 cards; and, I just posted my story regarding my Piedmont (Factory #25) set.

I'm curious....regarding your Sweet Cap 350-460 Factory 30 Scraps (27 cards)....are these all the same subjects (in post #8 here) which I identified as the Group B subjects ?


TED Z
.

[Ronnie73]

Incredible EPDG collection. I'm only at 97 different with Carl Lundgren Chicago SGC 60 as the highlight of my EPDG set. Still searching for a Dahlen Boston EPDG to complete my Elite 11. Keep up the great progress.
Ron

Originally Posted by Thromdog

My story isn't overly interesting. I started collecting the monster in June of 2013 while on vacation in Destin, Florida. I bought a Tim Jordan batting PSA 3 from PWCC. Paid $26. I basically bought anything I felt was a good price for the condition and then started buying lots to help knock off the needed list. Condition varied.

Last card I bought to get to 520 was a Cobb red portrait with an Old Mill back. It's a PSA 2mk with a stamp on the back. Beautiful card for the grade.

Since then I've been upgrading my set when I find good deals.

Also, back in 2014, I won about 15 EPDGs that were individually listed auctions from JustCollect. Either they or their consignors had purchased a large EPDG lot from REA and was breaking it up. I sat on those until the fall of 2015 and decided to try to get to 100 EPDGs. Then it became 200 EPDGs. Not sure how far I will go but I currently am at 217 unique ones. I need to update my collage, 3 more need to be added.....apologies on the size of the picture if it skews the screen. I've only added about 5 this year. Been tough finding ones I need. Condition varies from trimmed sides and top to highest graded examples.....Lindaman SGC 70, Fiene throwing PSA 6, and my favorite Frank Smith PSA 6. Don't have any of the biggest HOFers, and probably won't end up buying those, but am happy I've gotten this far. Gonna have to sell them off at some point.

[tedzan]

Hi Jeff

Great story and an awesome display of your EPDG cards.

Thanks for sharing them with us.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *





I will borrow the last lines from the 1974 movie "The Sting"......when Paul Newman asks Robert Redford (after they pulled off their elaborate "Sting" on Robert Shaw)..........
"Was that as good as it gets ?"
Redford replies..... "It's not enough" .....then smiles, and says ....."but it's damn close".

That scene reflects my feelings regarding my completion of the T206 PIEDMONT set. So, I was motivated to put together the SOVEREIGN set. This adventure was significant,
as it resulted in providing us a greater understanding of American Lithographic's printing of the T206 cards. Why did I choose the SOVEREIGN cards ?
I always favored the GREEN colored T206 backs (also I've collected AMERICAN BEAUTY sub-sets). So, I figured a SOVEREIGN set would be relatively easy to complete, since
Lundgren, Magie, Plank, Wagner, Joe Doyle Nat'l, the 48 subjects in the Southern League series, and Demmitt & O'Hara (St Louis) were NOT printed with SOVEREIGN backs.

Well, I was very mistaken. This was quite a challenge in itself. Specifically because I had to determine which T206 cards were not printed with SOVEREIGN backs (No-Prints).
However, I am very happy to say that my list of No-Prints have withstood the test of time. It took me approx. 11 months to complete this set of 402 different subjects. Refer
to this thread...... Mission Accomplished....SOVEREIGN only set

Besides the 55 subjects mentioned above, the following T206 subjects are SOVEREIGN no-prints......

Abstein
Adkins
Arrellanes
Barbeau
Barger
Becker
Bliss
Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell
Charles
Clark
Clymer
Collins (Minn.)
Cross
Davidson
Delehanty (Louisville)
Demmitt (New York American)
Dessau
Dorner

Downey (fielding)
Elberfeld (portrait-Washington)
Engle
Evans
Fletcher
Freeman
Ganzel
Graham (St Louis AL)
Gray
Groom
Hayden
Hoffman (St Louis AL)
Hunter
Jones (portrait Detroit)
Kleinow (Boston)
La Porte
Lattimore
Lord
Lundgren (Kansas City)
Maddox

Maloney
Marshall
Mattern
McAleese
McBride
McElveen
McLean
Milan
Miller (Pittsburg)
Mullen (portrait)
Murray (bat)
Myers (bat)
Nattress
Phillippe
Puttman
Rhodes
Ritter
Rudolph
Schirm
Schlafly

Schreck
Shannon
Sharpe
Frank Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (bat)
Starr
Willett


This SOVEREIGN set has proven to be a very timely and significant project in that it revealed to us the following important insights
into American Lithographic's printing of the various series in their T206 production. Refer to Posts #2 & 4 here for the details.


TED Z
.

[Ronnie73]

Incredible Sovereign story. I've known of your Sovereign set from past posts over the years but never knew it only took you 11 months and that's with trying to figure out what exactly existed. One word, impressive. I'm currently at 75% complete and it's looking like Cobb 460 will be my last one on the list too.

Originally Posted by tedzan

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


These six are samples of some of my nicer SOVEREIGN cards


I will borrow the last lines from the 1974 movie "The Sting"......when Paul Newman asks Robert Redford (after they pulled off their elaborate "Sting" on Robert Shaw)..........
"Was that as good as it gets ?"
Redford replies..... "It's not enough" .....then smiles, and says ....."but it's damn close".

That scene reflects my feelings regarding my completion of the T206 PIEDMONT set. So, I was motivated to put together the SOVEREIGN set. This adventure was significant,
as it resulted in providing us a greater understanding of American Lithographic's printing of the T206 cards. Why did I choose the SOVEREIGN cards ?
I always favored the GREEN colored T206 backs (also I've collected AMERICAN BEAUTY sub-sets). So, I figured a SOVEREIGN set would be relatively easy to complete, since
Lundgren, Magie, Plank, Wagner, Joe Doyle Nat'l, the 48 subjects in the Southern League series, and Demmitt & O'Hara (St Louis) were NOT printed with SOVEREIGN backs.

Well, I was very mistaken. This was quite a challenge in itself. Specifically because I had to determine which T206 cards were not printed with SOVEREIGN backs (No-Prints).
However, I am very happy to say that my list of No-Prints have withstood the test of time. It took me approx. 11 months to complete this set of 402 different subjects. Refer
to this thread...... Mission Accomplished....SOVEREIGN only set

Besides the 55 subjects mentioned above, the following T206 subjects are SOVEREIGN no-prints......

Abstein
Adkins
Arrellanes
Barbeau
Barger
Becker
Bliss
Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell
Charles
Clark
Clymer
Collins (Minn.)
Cross
Davidson
Delehanty (Louisville)
Demmitt (New York American)
Dessau
Dorner

Downey (fielding)
Elberfeld (portrait-Washington)
Engle
Evans
Fletcher
Freeman
Ganzel
Graham (St Louis AL)
Gray
Groom
Hayden
Hoffman (St Louis AL)
Hunter
Jones (portrait Detroit)
Kleinow (Boston)
La Porte
Lattimore
Lord
Lundgren (Kansas City)
Maddox

Maloney
Marshall
Mattern
McAleese
McBride
McElveen
McLean
Milan
Miller (Pittsburg)
Mullen (portrait)
Murray (bat)
Myers (bat)
Nattress
Phillippe
Puttman
Rhodes
Ritter
Rudolph
Schirm
Schlafly

Schreck
Shannon
Sharpe
Frank Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (bat)
Starr
Willett


This SOVEREIGN set has proven to be a very timely and significant project in that it revealed to us the following important insights
into American Lithographic's printing of the various series in their T206 production. Refer to Posts #2 & 4 here for the details.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

Incredible Sovereign story. I've known of your Sovereign set from past posts over the years but never knew it only took you 11 months and that's with trying to figure out what exactly existed. One word, impressive. I'm currently at 75% complete and it's looking like Cobb 460 will be my last one on the list too.

Thanks, Ron

I acquired 5 of the 6 super-prints with the rare SOVEREIGN 460 back pretty early in the game. It took me 2 more years to get the red Cobb with the SOVEREIGN 460 back.

Wish you good luck in finding one.



.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Hi Carl

Thanks for posting your T206 story. I always advise collectors to acquire large lots of T206's when starting their sets. So, you were very smart to pick up the large lot of 200 cards.
So, don't have any regrets. These current "crazy" prices on Cobb's (and, other major T206 stars), in my opinion will not continue. Prices will eventually fall back to normal.

And, thanks for the kind words.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


. .
........... Two Pennsylvania guys ........


In 2006, when I broke up my 2nd set to start up the PIEDMONT set, I also began setting aside the SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 cards from the 2nd set. These SWEET CAP
cards were a low priority then in my collection. Anyhow, I chose the SWEET CAP, Factory #30 cards because I was certain 469 different subjects would complete this set. At
that point I had approx. 150 different SWEET CAP/30 cards. This 469 number was easily determined by this equation......
524 - [Joe Doyle Nat'L, Kleinow (Boston), Lundgren (Cubs), Magie, Smith (Chi & Bos), Demmitt & O'Hara (St Louis vars.), Southern Leaguers (48)] = 469

Furthermore, lengthy research figuring out those tricky No-Prints (as I had to deal with in the SOVEREIGN set) was NOT necessary with this SWEET CAP/30 set. By Oct 2008,
I had 467 different SWEET CAP/30 cards (only missing Plank and Wagner). Check-out thread.... MISSION (99.5%) ACCOMPLISHED....all-Sweet Cap T206 set

I have no illusions of ever getting the Wagner card. But, I had hopes of eventually acquiring the Plank card. Eddie Plank is one of my all-time favorite pitchers in baseball.
My patience paid off last year, when an opportunity arose to acquire a T206 collection (81 cards), which included a SWEET CAPORAL 150, Factory #30 Plank. I worked an
interesting deal with my friend on this collection. Now, as far as I am concerned, this SWEET CAP set is "complete" with 468 cards.
For more info check-out this thread.... SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set....includes Plank


Hey guys
How's about some show-n-tell regarding your T206 collections.....we've had some very interesting stories so far.....so, tell us all about your T206 experiences.


TED Z
.

[Pat R]

When I started collecting T206's I never had intentions of completing the
set and I still don't. As a matter of fact I recently sold over 100 from
my collection. I still have well over 500 T206's but nowhere near a complete
set.

I do have a fascination with print oddities/flaws though. When Steve B
started the PD150 plate scratch thread and explained how someday
they might be able to establish some sheet or partial sheet layouts I was
hooked.

I currently have 243 different PD150 plate scratches, 307 total with
the duplicates.
1.jpg
2.jpg

I also like to collect front print oddities like this Willett.
img248.jpg

Tenney with a broken Y in the NY on his shirt.
img252.jpg

Back oddities like the Fact 30's on the bottom.
img249.jpg

or a reoccurring flaws like the one found on the back of certain Brain, Ganzel and Dygert.
img250.jpg
img251.jpg

[tedzan]


Pat R.

You do have a different approach to collecting T206's than most, and it's quite interesting.

Thanks for posting,

TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


Hey guys, anyone here interested in smoking a 107 year old American Beauty cigarette
.
.................. Some of the really tough to find AB 460 cards in this sub-set ...................


Since 2005, my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 project has been a work in progress to complete this 74 subject run....... AMERICAN BEAUTY's....T205's and/or T206's

Prior posts here tell of my 3 "completed" T206 sets since 2005. But to date, I have 70 of the 74 subjects** needed to complete this AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set.
This run is tougher than most T206 experts rate it. After 12 years, I still need Camnitz (arms above head)....L Doyle (portrait)....McGraw (portrait-cap), and
Tinker (bat off shoulder)

The Exclusive 12 guys are the easiest AB 460 cards to find. But, certain cards are extremely rare. Besides the 6 examples shown above and these 3 here....there are
Lajoie (bat), Lake (ball), McQuillan (bat), Murray (portrait), Payne, etc......







AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 check-list........74 subjects

350/460 Series.....................28 subjects

Berger
Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)

Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)


460-only Series.....................46 subjects

Abbaticcio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (pitching)
Bergen (catching)
Bescher (hands in air)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (arms at side)
Camnitz (arms above head)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Doyle (portrait)
Duffy
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hand on waist)

Hummell
Lake (with ball)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (bat)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schulte (back view)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)

H. Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait-cap)



Note **
Other sources claim there are 75 subjects in the AB 460 sub-set. However, my research indicates that 74 subjects were printed with the AB 460 backs.
The subject of contention is Ames (hands over head). I am confident in my research. So, I will reward anyone in this forum $200, if they can show me
this AMES card with a legitimate AB 460 back.


TED Z
.

[Ronnie73]

Those are some nice AB460 numbers Ted. This back is probably the least back in my collection along with everything after that like Hindu, CB's, etc. I did have 11 but now down to 10. I traded a friend an ungraded (poor) Murray Portrait for an Al Shaw Piedmont 350 PSA 2. I only had $100 invested so I did pretty good. My AB350 set is coming along and I will most likely complete that before the with frames and the 460's.

Ted, have you ever thought of going after an Old Mill set? I think that would be right up there compared to a Hindu or CB back set. Big set and lots of low pop's. I just add one here and there and try not to focus on it because of the real difficulty. I'm a 141 plus all SL'ers. Out of that, between 30-40 print group one's.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


Hey guys, anyone here interested in smoking a 107 year old American Beauty cigarette
.
.................. Some of the really tough to find AB 460 cards in this sub-set ...................


A T206 collector, who has 60% of the cards in his AB 460 run, asked me which of the 74 cards are the toughest ?
I'll start with this Cobb. While there are as many as 10 known with the AB 460 back, this Cobb is very tough to find simply because of the "supply vs demand" factor.


.


List of the scarcest AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 subjects. Only 1 (or 2) examples of each are known.

350/460 Series

Cobb (bat off shoulder) ...........less than 10 examples
Jennings (one hand)
Lajoie (bat)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Wilhelm (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)


460-only Series

Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Camnitz (arms above head)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Doyle (portrait)
Howell (hand on waist)
Lake (with ball)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
Murray (portrait)
Oldring (batting)
Payne
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (portrait)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


I would appreciate any additional inputs to this list.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

Those are some nice AB460 numbers Ted. This back is probably the least back in my collection along with everything after that like Hindu, CB's, etc. I did have 11 but now down to 10. I traded a friend an ungraded (poor) Murray Portrait for an Al Shaw Piedmont 350 PSA 2. I only had $100 invested so I did pretty good. My AB350 set is coming along and I will most likely complete that before the with frames and the 460's.

Ted, have you ever thought of going after an Old Mill set? I think that would be right up there compared to a Hindu or CB back set. Big set and lots of low pop's. I just add one here and there and try not to focus on it because of the real difficulty. I'm a 141 plus all SL'ers. Out of that, between 30-40 print group one's.

Hi Ron

The OLD MILL's don't excite me....except for the Exclusive 12 cards with OLD MILL backs. As you know, these OLD MILL's are very difficult to find.
But, I enjoy this challenge. Recently, I started looking for them, and I have only 4 of them......

.
.


Not too pretty; however, I'll take them any way that I can find them


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


.


Circa 2000, a bunch of T206's were in circulation that were FAKES. These T206's were so professionally altered that they not only fooled collectors; but, also fooled the Grading
Company's (PSA, SGC, etc.)....who graded these fakes and gave some of them high numbers. Check-out this thread....Rebacked T206's on Ebay

Most in the hobby called these altered T206's...."re-backed". I choose to call them "re-fronted" DRUM's, red HINDU's, LENOX's, etc. A professional paper restorer told me how it
was easy to interchange the front / back combo of a T206. By first removing the front of a common T206 image from a card whose back was a rare one (DRUM, HINDU, LENOX,
UZIT, etc., etc.). Then, very precisely appliqueing the desired front onto the card with the rare back. He said there are adhering mediums that are undetectable in this process.

Fortunately, there were some of us collectors that instantly discerned that these T206's were fakes because their front / back combos were impossible.

Examples......

Matty (portrait) with a red HINDU back (PSA & SGC graded)

Red Cobb with DRUM back (PSA graded)

Green Cobb with a red HINDU back

Green Cobb with a CYCLE 350 back

Johnson (pitching) with BROAD LEAF 350 back


We were lucky......whoever did a beautiful job of altering these T206's was totally ignorant of the T206 Series structure and its associated backs.


There were many of these fakes in circulation, if you recall others than the 5 which I have listed here, please give us your inputs.

Thanks,

TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *






Circa 2000, a bunch of T206's were in circulation that were being sold on Ebay (and at Shows) that were FAKES. These T206's were very professionally altered, and these cards
fooled many collectors (and even the Grading Co's.). Except some of us, who instantly recognized these cards had front / back combos that were impossible.

Here is an updated list with some more examples which were reported to me via emails. So far, we have identified these 7 fake T206 cards......

Matty (portrait) with a red HINDU back (PSA and SGC graded)

Matty (portrait) with a SOVEREIGN 460 back (PSA graded)

Red Cobb with DRUM back (PSA graded)

Green Cobb with a red HINDU back

Green Cobb with a CYCLE 350 back

Johnson (pitching) with BROAD LEAF 350 back

Johnson (portrait) with BROAD LEAF 350 back


Courtesy Chris Brown


There were many more of these fakes in circulation. If you recall others than the 7 which I have listed here, please provide us your inputs.

Thanks,

TED Z
.

[jerrys]

Hi Ted - I can not find an answer to this T206 question:

Two Doolan Cards, one Doolin Card - they are same person. Any idea why there was not a correction?

mickeyd.jpg

[Luke]

Jerry,

They did fix the error, but not until the 350 series. The Doolin portrait was first printed in 1909. When they printed his other two cards, starting in 1910, the correction was made.

Scott Gross wrote a fun article for my website about all the misspelled names in the t206 set (shameless plug )

http://www.thatt206life.com/2017/04/...ur-name-wrong/

[tedzan]

H Jerry

Mickey Doolin's portrait card (issued in the 150 Series) is correct.

His 350 Series card (fielding pose) and his 350/460 Series card (batting pose) are mis-spelled.

They had it right the 1st time....anyone's guess why his subsequent cards had it wrong ?


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Baseball-Reference.com has his name listed as Mickey Doolin.

What am I missing here ?


TED Z
.

[KingFisk]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Carl

Thanks for posting your T206 story. I always advise collectors to acquire large lots of T206's when starting their sets. So, you were very smart to pick up the large lot of 200 cards.
So, don't have any regrets. These current "crazy" prices on Cobb's (and, other major T206 stars), in my opinion will not continue. Prices will eventually fall back to normal.

And, thanks for the kind words.


TED Z
.

Thanks, Ted! That was a reassuring post. Much appreciated.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[jerrys]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Baseball-Reference.com has his name listed as Mickey Doolin.

What am I missing here ?


TED Z
.

Just curious to find out why there are two spellings. Thanks.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by jerrys

Just curious to find out why there are two spellings. Thanks.

Jerry

Now I, myself am confused. One source says his name is spelled "Doolin" and another source says the correct spelling is "Doolan".

We know that the T3 cards were printed after the T206 cards. So, did American Litho finally get it right when they printed the T3's ?





TED Z
.

[sreader3]

Ted & Jerry,

Whoever wrote his Wiki thinks his name was Doolin. I'm guessing they did the research and know the story.

Scot

Mickey Doolin Wiki:

Michael Joseph "Mickey" Doolin (May 7, 1880 in Ashland, Pennsylvania – November 1, 1951 in Orlando, Florida), was a professional baseball player who played shortstop in the Major Leagues from 1905 to 1918. During his career, he played for the Philadelphia Phillies, Chicago Whales, Chicago Cubs, New York Giants, and Brooklyn Robins. His name is often misspelled as "Doolan" due to many of his baseball cards being misspelled.

[sreader3]

What do you call it when a series of cards initially has a player's name correct and then creates an error thinking they are making a correction of a perceived error that was not really an error?

Error created through erroneous correction (ECTEC)?

[jerrys]

My curiosity concerning the Doolan/Doolin confusion started with trying to establish what happened and why there are two 1908-09 Rose Company postcards of the same person. The Doolin was published in the initial issuance (1908) the Doolan sometime later. Why the change? Why issue another card?
In trying to analyze this unusual case I find the 1909 T206 checklist with the same problem. So being there are a million or so T206 collectors perhaps.......
The baseball ref states: Doolin - SABR spells it: Doolan - Wiki=Doolin – Rose Co. makes costly change of printing another card to go from Doolin to Doolan. T206 has both.
There must be some logical conclusion to this dilemma.

Doolin and Doolan-50.jpg

[Pat R]

Does anyone have old box scores to see how they spelled his name?

[Luke]

This is interesting. It never even occurred to me that Doolin could be correct because his name is spelled "Doolan" on both of these cards from 1914-1916. I see that Baseball Reference has it as Doolin.

[Bill77]

From baseball reference:
Name Note: born Michael Joseph Doolittle, adopted surname sometimes spelled Doolan

So maybe its both or he changed his name a second time as Doolin is close to Dooin and he didn't want anyone to confuse him with Red Dooin.

[Pat R]

These auto's aren't authenticated but both use the Doolan spelling.
Doolan Auto.jpg
Doolan Auto 2.jpg

Also here's a ball with Doolan.
http://rarebooks.library.nd.edu/exhi...hy/index.shtml

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Ted & Jerry,

Whoever wrote his Wiki thinks his name was Doolin. I'm guessing they did the research and know the story.

Scot

Mickey Doolin Wiki:

Michael Joseph "Mickey" Doolin (May 7, 1880 in Ashland, Pennsylvania – November 1, 1951 in Orlando, Florida), was a professional baseball player who played shortstop in the Major Leagues from 1905 to 1918. During his career, he played for the Philadelphia Phillies, Chicago Whales, Chicago Cubs, New York Giants, and Brooklyn Robins. His name is often misspelled as "Doolan" due to many of his baseball cards being misspelled.

Hi Scot

Doolin's very 1st card is a W600 (1906 issue) which identifies him as.....Michael Doolin

And of course, his 1st T206 card spelled Doolin issued with the 150 series cards in 1909.

All T-cards, E-cards, Gum-cards (Mello-Mint) subsequent to the above two cards identify him as Doolan.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * *

v...................................... 5-card proof strip with Wagner ......................................v
. . . .


The most significant find of T206 "proofs" is the unique Wagner 5-card strip (shown here). Art Martineau mentioned it in a 2005 thread.... T206 proofs

This 5-card strip was first acquired by Bill Zimpleman and Wayne Varner in the Pittsburgh area in the 1970's. They accquired it from a gentleman who had
purchased Wagner's house. In the early 1980's, Barry Halper acquired this strip from Bill and Wayne.


Here is a reprint card of another unique T206 proof....Eddie Collins (with bat) that American Litho (ALC) did not issue (for whatever reasons). My theory is
Collins (like his boss, Connie Mack, and Eddie Plank) didn't do tobacco in any form. However, ALC printed Collins in the 350 Series. So much for my theory.

Had ALC continued this Collins card into their regular production line, they would have printed it with a PIEDMONT 150 back first. And, perhaps some of the
other T-brands in the 150 Series. At the start of each Series press runs, the PIEDMONT backs were printed first on the T206's (and, at greater number than
any of the other T-brands).









I certainly ain't any kind of expert regarding T206 proofs. This Puttman proof is the only one I have....so, I leave it up to you guys with all these proofs to
show-n-tell us all about them.

Where's Johnny V when we need him


TED Z
.

[mrvster]

AWESOME THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have been meaning to post in it....

I have been super busy, but have been meaning to write a few articles.....especially on proofs

I will post tomorrow on the 206 proofs....you are onto something!

150 subjects hint hint

[tedzan]

Hey Johnny

Great to hear from you.

Your the man to tell us about these T206 proofs.

Take care, good buddy


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *

.

. .


T206's with the UZIT back were issued in the Spring of 1911. The UZIT and the AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 backs were printed together at the tail-end of the T206 press runs.
On display are the six UZIT cards in my collection. I'd say the UZIT back is the 2nd toughest of the various T206 T-brands. Of course, the BROAD LEAF 460 is the 1st.

Now, I'm not dismissing the brown LENOX, nor the brown OLD MILL cards. But in my opinion, these two backs resulted from printer's mistaken ink application (most likely
a one time error in the printing process). They were not regular issue cards. Otherwise, we would see many more of them.


. .



58 subjects with the UZIT back have been confirmed to date (5/31/2018).


350/460 series...............................28 subjects

Berger
Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball-St Louis)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Doc White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)

I am quite confident that the above list of 28 of the 350/460 subjects is complete (as it coincides with the confirmed
list of AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 subjects for the 350/460 series).


460-only series..............................30 subjects

Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Howie Camnitz (arms up)
Harry Camnitz (arms side)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Frill
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Hummel
Lake (ball-St Louis)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)

Oldring (bat)
Overall (blue sky)
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Schulte (back view)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)
Tinker (bat on)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

The 460-only series list is still a work in progress....I expect that as many as 16 more UZIT cards from this series will eventually be discovered.


Stay tuned....in the next post here more stuff regarding the UZIT cards will be presented.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *

.


At the beginning of 1911, American Litho (ALC) launched their Gold-Border series of cards. The T80 cards depicting worldwide Military subjects was one of the first issues.
The artwork of the T80's is very distinctive, and their gold borders are quite ornate. By the Spring of 1911, ALC had concluded their T206 press runs. Last batch of T206's
were printed circa Jan > March 1911 with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, LENOX (black & brown**), and UZIT backs. These T206 subjects were from Group B (re Post 8) of the
350/460 series and subjects from the 460-only series.


T80 cards

......also, T80's exist with extremely rare OLD MILL backs



Now imagine this...... opening a LENOX (or UZIT) cigarette pack in the Spring of 1911 and finding a T206 card and a T80 card in it.... WOW ! !
An ALC ledger sheet (dated Feb 1911) exists instructing ATC employees at Factory #30 to insert both a T206 and a T80 in a LENOX (or UZIT)
cigarette pack.


Indeed, 1911 was a very ambitious year for American Lithographic in terms of Tobacco premiums. Listed here are some of the sets produced in 1911......


T201 cards






Fez Cigarette issue, T77 Lighthouse cards, and T205 cards......the T205 Minor Leaguer's (12-cards) were printed & issued circa..Fall/ Winter of 1911.





Circa 1911 Gold-Border Tobacco premiums

208 = T205 Baseball

50 = T42 Birds

30 = T43 Birds

50 = T56 Emblems

100 = T57 Fables

50 = T69 Historic Homes

50 = T80 Military Series

50 = T99 Sights & Scenes of the World



T99 Sights & Scenes of the World
.



I'll gladly answer any questions you may have regarding this stuff.


** Note....I will elaborate more on the T206 brown LENOX cards in a future post.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *





On display here are vintage postcards (circa 1910) depicting three of the nine ATC Factory's which manufactured tobacco products during the 1909 - 1911 timeframe.
Also listed are the other five Factory's which produced ATC tobacco brands during this era.



Factory #25, Richmond, VA

ATC tobacco brands...... PIEDMONT, AMERICAN BEAUTY, BROAD LEAF, CAROLINA BRIGHTS, CYCLE, DRUM, OLD MILL, SOVEREIGN, SWEET CAPORAL

.................................................. .................................................. .........................v....... Factory #25 .......v
. .

.




Factory #42, Durham, NC

ATC tobacco brands...... AMERICAN BEAUTY, PIEDMONT, SWEET CAPORAL



AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, Factory #42
. .





Factory #33, Reidsville, NC

ATC tobacco brand...... Ty Cobb Smoking Tobacco










Factory #30, Brooklyn, NY

ATC tobacco brands...... LENOX, SWEET CAPORAL, TOLSTOI, UZIT

. .

. ..





And, here are the other five Factory's manufacturing ATC tobacco brands during the 1909 - 1911 era......

Factory #6, Middletown, Ohio........ POLAR BEAR

Factory #17, Virginia..................... El PRINCIPE de GALES

Factory #649, New York State....... HINDU, SWEET CAPORAL



I'm including these two Factory's which included 1910 COUPON cards and RED CROSS cards with their Cigarettes. Since these cards were printed by
American Lithographic during 1910-1911 timeframe, and are identical with the T206 cards**. No need for "controversy", guys.

Factory #3, New Orleans, LA.......... COUPON **

Factory #10, Jersey City, NJ........... RED CROSS


Let's see some more pictures of these ATC Factory's....if you have postcards, photos, publications, etc., please post them....thanks.


** Note......the 1910 COUPON cards were printed on "soft" cardboard because they did NOT serve as cigarette pack stiffeners. The initial marketing of
this brand was not in packs, but in cartons labelled "COUPON" Cigarettes which contained 100's of loose cigarettes.


TED Z
.

[Sean]

Hey Ted, some of the Coupon Type-3 cards were distributed from Factory 8. Do you know where that one was located? (I know that type-3s are not T206-similar, but I'm still curious.)

[tedzan]

Sean

Where Factory #8 was located is a good question.

This I can tell you, that the Factory #8 overprint was applied at the tail-end of the T213-3 press runs (circa 1919). Which would explain why these cards are very rare.

I'm not quite sure where Factory #8 was located in Louisiana (other than New Orleans), so I'll not comment on it. Or for whatever reasons, perhaps ATC may have re-
assigned their New Orleans (Factory # 3) to Factory #8 at the end of WWI.


TED Z
.