Feller rookie?

[MACollector]

Why do people consider his 48 Bowman his rookie card when you also have the Leaf that same year and the Goudey 36 and 38 issue? Seems inconsistent with other “rookie” card determinations of vintage players.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Leaf is probably 49, but in any case Bowman is not even close to being his rookie card. Probably a Beckett thing.

[G1911]

Because the Bowman is common and thus more people are invested in pumping it.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by G1911

Because the Bowman is common and thus more people are invested in pumping it.

Yep, that exactly. I've long said the actual Beckett definition should read
"Card issued closest to the players first game that exists in a big enough quantity that all dealers can potentially benefit from the hype"

[BobC]

Originally Posted by MACollector

Why do people consider his 48 Bowman his rookie card when you also have the Leaf that same year and the Goudey 36 and 38 issue? Seems inconsistent with other “rookie” card determinations of vintage players.

Because there is no consensus on what the definition of a "rookie" card should be. Many people, often based on a lot of early price guides like the Beckett's, still seem to follow the thinking that a "rookie" card has to be an actual card, so photos, postcards, premiums, stickers, etc., etc. do not count and cannot be true "rookie" cards. Also, many early guides pushed the idea that a true "rookie" card also could only be one available through a nationally distributed set. So regional or special issues did not count and could not be considered as true "rookie" cards. Most of these types of price and other card guides started to take prominence in the hobby beginning in the 1980's, when the original hobby boom started with the coming to middle age of the Baby Boomers who grew up with the start of the Topps, Bowman, and Leaf nationally distributed sets. So it was only natural that these guides would typically focus on cards and sets starting with those late '40s card sets, and think of cards mostly in terms of just those kinds of cards. For years the Beckett price guides I believe would show the '33 Goudey Babe Ruth cards as his "rookie" cards, even though that was actually Ruth's 19 season playing on the majors. Per their definitions and bias towards sets like the Leaf, Bowman, and Topps sets of the '40s and '50s, the '33 Goudey set was they very first nationally distributed card set that Ruth was featured in that went along with those '40s and '50s Leaf, Bowman, and Topps sets. Thus, the thinking by some that the '33 Goudey cards really are Ruth's true "rookie" cards, and likely also a main factor as to why the Goudey Ruth cards are so much more highly valued than most other earlier Ruth issues.

And like the '33 Goudey cards being shown as Ruth's "rookie" cards, many of those same early price guides and books would show the '48 Leaf cards as player's "rookie" cards, despite often having numerous other earlier cards and items issued for them, just as you mentioned Feller's '36 and '38 card issues, and other items of his released before his Leaf card. Those initial, early hobby guides and books influenced many, many people in the hobby, and those initial impressions and thinking have survived with many still in the hobby to this day. Meanwhile others, especially those into pre-war when there weren't annual releases of nationally distributed card sets every year, realized that the 1980's price guide/book definitions didn't really conform or relate to issues prior to the start of the Bowman/Topps era, and the Baby Boomer rise in collecting cards from when they were kids.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by BobC

Because there is no consensus on what the definition of a "rookie" card should be. Many people, often based on a lot of early price guides like the Beckett's, still seem to follow the thinking that a "rookie" card has to be an actual card, so photos, postcards, premiums, stickers, etc., etc. do not count and cannot be true "rookie" cards. Also, many early guides pushed the idea that a true "rookie" card also could only be one available through a nationally distributed set.

And like the '33 Goudey cards being shown as Ruth's "rookie" cards, many of those same early price guides and books would show the '48 Leaf cards as player's "rookie" cards, despite often having numerous other earlier cards and items issued for them, just as you mentioned Feller's '36 and '38 card issues, and other items of his released before his Leaf card. .

I think this is true generally, but it is still perplexing that Goudey is ok for Ruth's "rookie" but not for Feller's.

[Leon]

His rookies.

1937 R314C (V352) "Creamy" Wide Pens

1937 V300 OPC

[bcbgcbrcb]

From a thread that I posted all the way back in 2011. There likely have been a few set date changes and maybe a couple of new discoveries but this should cover just about everybody pre-war at least. From my rookie card guide, I have the rookie card parameters that I have adopted over the years as being the consensus amongst collectors and will post that in this thread shortly. As mentioned previously, you will never get everyone to agree on these but I think it’s a very good start.

After a tremendous amount of extensive research, I have come up with the below list as true Rookie Cards of each Baseball Hall of Famer:


Hank Aaron (1954 Topps/Johnston Cookies)
Grover Alexander (1913 National Game/Tom Barker Game)
Roberto Alomar (1988 Donruss)
Walter Alston (1956 Topps)
Sparky Anderson (1959 Topps)
Cap Anson (1887 Buchner)
Luis Aparicio (1956 Topps)
Luke Appling (1931-32 4-on-1 Exhibits)
Richie Ashburn (1949 Bowman)
Earl Averill (1929-30 R315)

Frank Baker (1909-11 T206/Colgan’s Chips/E90-1)
Dave Bancroft (1916 M101-5/Fleischmann Bakery)
Ernie Banks (1954 Topps)
Al Barlick (1955 Bowman)
Ed Barrow (1950-56 Callahan HOF)
Jake Beckley (1888 Old Judge)
Cool Papa Bell (1974 Laughlin)
Johnny Bench (1968 Topps)
Chief Bender (1903 E107)

Yogi Berra (1947 Tip Top Bread/Bond Bread/W602)
Bert Blyleven (1971 Topps)
Wade Boggs (1983 Topps/Fleer/Donruss)
Jim Bottomley (1923 Maple Crispette)
Lou Boudreau (1941 Double Play)
Roger Bresnahan (1903 W600)
George Brett (1975 Topps)
Lou Brock (1962 Topps)

Dan Brouthers (1887 Buchner/Old Judge/Gypsy Queen)
Mordecai Brown (1904 Allegheny) - Second Card (1904 W600)
Raymond Brown (1945-46 Caramelo Deportivo)
Willard Brown (1948-49 Toleteros)
Morgan Bulkeley (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)
Jim Bunning (1957 Topps)
Jesse Burkett (1893 Just So Tobacco) - Second Card (1903 W600)
Roy Campanella (1949 Bowman)

Rod Carew (1967 Topps)
Max Carey (1912 T207)
Steve Carlton (1965 Topps)
Gary Carter (1975 Topps)
Alexander Cartwright (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)
Orlando Cepeda (1958 Topps)
Henry Chadwick (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)

Frank Chance (1902 W600)
Happy Chandler (1950-56 Callahan HOF)
Oscar Charleston (1923-24 Tomas Gutierrez/Billiken)
Jack Chesbro (1902 W600)
Nestor Chylak (1955 Bowman)
Fred Clarke (1902 W600)
John Clarkson (1887 Buchner/Old Judge/Four Base Hits)
Roberto Clemente (1955 Topps)
Ty Cobb (1907 W600/1907-09 Wolverine/Dietsche/Taylor/Seamless Steel Tubes Postcards)
Mickey Cochrane (1926 Spalding)

Eddie Collins (1907 W600)
Jimmy Collins (1903 E107)
Earle Combs (1926 Exhibits)
Charles Comiskey (1887 Buchner/Old Judge/Gypsy Queen/Lone Jack)
Jocko Conlan (1955 Bowman)
Tom Connolly (1950-56 Callahan HOF)
Roger Connor (1886 N167/Kalamazoo Bats)
Andy Cooper (1923-24 Tomas Gutierrez/Billiken/Nacionales)
Stan Coveleski (1920 W520/W522)

Sam Crawford (1902 W600)
Joe Cronin (1931-32 4-on-1 Exhibits)
Candy Cummings (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)
Kiki Cuyler (1925 Exhibits)
Ray Dandridge (1945-46 Caramelo Deportivo)
George Davis (1894 N142)
Andre Dawson (1977 Topps)
Leon Day (1949-50 Toleteros)
Dizzy Dean (1933 Goudey/George C Miller/Tatoo Orbit)
Ed Delahanty (1889 Old Judge)

Bill Dickey (1931 W502)
Martin Dihigo (1927-28 Mallorquina) - Second Card (1931 Doble Aguila)
Joe DiMaggio (1936 World Wide Gum/R314/R312)
Larry Doby (1949 Leaf/Bowman)
Bobby Doerr (1937 R314)
Barney Dreyfuss (1910 Tip Top Bread)
Don Drysdale (1957 Topps)
Hugh Duffy (1888 Old Judge)
Leo Durocher (1929-30 4-on-1 Exhibits)

Dennis Eckersley (1976 Topps/Hostess/Kellogg’s/SSPC)
Billy Evans (1922 Exhibits)
Johnny Evers (1903 W600)
Buck Ewing (1886 N167/Kalamazoo Bats)
Red Faber (1916 M101-5/4)
Bob Feller (1937 R314/OPC/4-on-1 Exhibits)
Rick Ferrell (1931-32 4-on-1 Exhibits) - Second Card (1933 Goudey/Worch Cigars)
Rollie Fingers (1969 Topps)

Carlton Fisk (1972 Topps)
Elmer Flick (1903 E107)
Whitey Ford (1951 Bowman/Berk Ross)
Rube Foster (1974 Laughlin)
Willie Foster (1927-28 Mallorquina) - Second Card (1974 Laughlin)
Nellie Fox (1951 Bowman)
Jimmy Foxx (1925-31 Postcard-Back Exhbits)
Ford Frick (1959 Topps)
Frank Frisch (1920 W519)

Pud Galvin (1887 Old Judge/Gypsy Queen)
Lou Gehrig (1925 Exhibits)
Charlie Gehringer (1926 Exhibits)
Bob Gibson (1959 Topps)
Josh Gibson (1931 Harrison Studios Postcard) - Second Card (1950-51 Toleteros)
Warren Giles (1956 Topps)
Pat Gillick (1997 Canadian HOF)
Lefty Gomez (1932 US Caramel)
Joe Gordon (1939-46 Salutation Exhibits)

Goose Goslin (1922 E120/W573)
Rich Gossage (1973 Topps)
Frank Grant (1974 Laughlin)
Hank Greenberg (1934 Goudey)
Clark Griffith (1889 Old Judge)
Burleigh Grimes (1921 Exhibits/Oxford Confectionary)
Lefty Grove (1928 Star Player Candy)
Tony Gwynn (1983 Topps/Fleer/Donruss)
Chick Hafey (1928 Star Player Candy)

Jesse Haines (1921 Exhibits)
Billy Hamilton (1889 Old Judge)
Ned Hanlon (1887 Buchner/Old Judge/Gypsy Queen)
William Harridge (1956 Topps)
Bucky Harris (1921 Exhibits)
Gabby Hartnett (1922 E120/W573)
Doug Harvey (1984 Smokey the Bear)
Harry Heilmann (1917 Boston Store/Collins McCarthy/Standard Biscuit/Weil Baking)

Rickey Henderson (1980 Topps)
Bill Herman (1932 Denby Cigars Postcard)
Whitey Herzog (1957 Topps)
Pete Hill (1909 Cabanas) - Second Card (1910 Punch) - Third Card (1974 Laughlin)
Harry Hooper (1909-11 Colgan’s Chips)
Rogers Hornsby (1917 Boston Store/Collins McCarthy/Standard Biscuit/Weil Baking)
Waite Hoyt (1921 E121/Koester Bread)
Cal Hubbard (1955 Bowman)

Carl Hubbell (1929-30 R315)
Miller Huggins (1906 Fan Craze)
William Hulbert (1994 American Archives)
Catfish Hunter (1965 Topps)
Monte Irvin (1948-49 El Indio)
Reggie Jackson (1969 Topps/Milton Bradley)
Travis Jackson (1923 William Paterson)
Fergie Jenkins (1966 Topps)
Hugh Jennings (1894 Alpha Photo Engraving) - Second Card (1902 W600)

Ban Johnson (1906 Fan Craze)
Judy Johnson (1974 Laughlin)
Walter Johnson (1908 Rose Company Postcards)
Addie Joss (1903 E107)
Al Kaline (1954 Topps)
Tim Keefe (1886 N167/Kalamazoo Bats)
Willie Keeler (1902 W600)
George Kell (1947 Tip Top Bread)
Joe Kelley (1894 Alpha Photo Engraving) - Second Card (1902 W600)

George Kelly (1920 W520/W522/W516-1)
King Kelly (1887 Old Judge/Gypsy Queen/Four Base Hits/Buchner)
Harmon Killebrew (1955 Topps)
Ralph Kiner (1947 Tip Top Bread/Bond Bread/W602)
Chuck Klein (1925-31 Postcard-Back Exhibits)
Bill Klem (1922 Exhibits)
Sandy Koufax (1955 Topps)
Bowie Kuhn (1969 Topps Test Issue)

Nap Lajoie (1902 W600)
Kenesaw Landis (1944-52 Albertype HOF Postcards)
Barry Larkin (1986 Sportflics Rookies)
Tommy LaSorda (1954 Topps)
Tony Lazzeri (1926 Exhibits/Spalding)
Bob Lemon (1947 Van Patrick Postcards)
Buck Leonard (1974 Laughlin)
Fred Lindstrom (1925-31 W590)
Pop Lloyd (1910 Punch) - Second Card (1923-24 Billiken/Tomas Gutierrez)
Ernie Lombardi (1933 Tatoo Orbit)

Al Lopez (1930 Baguer Chocolate)
Ted Lyons (1924 Diaz Cigarettes)
Connie Mack (1887 Old Judge)
Biz Mackey (1924-25 Aguilitas)
Larry MacPhail (1973-80 TCMA All-Time Greats)
Lee MacPhail (1980-01 Perez Steele HOF Postcards)
Effa Manley (1996 Negro League Playing Cards)
Mickey Mantle (1951 Bowman)
Heinie Manush (1929 R316 Kashin)
Rabbit Maranville (1912 Boston Daily American Postcards)

Juan Marichal (1961 Topps)
Rube Marquard (1909-11 T206/Colgan’s Chips/E90-1)
Ed Mathews (1952 Topps)
Christy Mathewson (1903 E107)
Willie Mays (1951 Bowman)
Bill Mazeroski (1957 Topps)
Joe McCarthy (1909-11 Colgan’s Chips)
Tommy McCarthy (1887 Old Judge/Gypsy Queen)
Willie McCovey (1960 Topps)

Joe McGinnity (1902 W600)
Bill McGowan (1948 Safe-T-Card)
John McGraw (1894 Alpha Photo Engraving) - Second Card (1902 W600)
Bill McKechnie (1912 T207)
Bid McPhee (1888 Old Judge)
Joe Medwick (1933 Worch Cigars)
Jose Mendez (1910 Punch) - Second Card (1923-24 Tomas Gutierrez/Nacionales/Billiken)
Johnny Mize (1936 R312)

Paul Molitor (1978 Topps)
Joe Morgan (1965 Topps)
Eddie Murray (1978 Topps/Kellogg’s/Hostess)
Stan Musial (1946 Sears Cardinals Postcard)
Hal Newhouser (1939-46 Salutation Exhibits)
Kid Nichols (1889 Old Judge)

Phil Niekro (1964 Topps)
Hank O'Day (1887 Old Judge)
Walter O'Malley (1988 Rini Postcards)
Jim O'Rourke (1886 N167/Kalamazoo Bats/H812)
Mel Ott (1929 R316 Kashin/Leader Novelty Company)
Satchell Paige (1949 Leaf/Bowman)
Jim Palmer (1966 Topps)
Herb Pennock (1921-23 National Caramel)
Tony Perez (1965 Topps)
Gaylord Perry (1962 Topps)

Eddie Plank (1902 W600)
Alex Pompez (2006 Yellow HOF Postcards)
Cum Posey (2006 Yellow HOF Postcards)
Kirby Puckett (1984 Fleer Update)
Charles Radbourne (1886 Red Stocking Cigars)
Pee Wee Reese (1941 Double Play/Play Ball)

Jim Rice (1975 Topps)
Sam Rice (1917 Collins McCarthy/Boston Store/Standard Biscuit/Weil Baking)
Branch Rickey (1914 Cracker Jack)
Cal Ripken Jr. (1982 Topps/Fleer/Donruss)
Eppa Rixey (1916 M101-5/4)
Phil Rizzuto (1941 Double Play)
Robin Roberts (1949 Bowman)
Brooks Robinson (1957 Topps)
Frank Robinson (1956 Kahn’s)
Jackie Robinson (1947 Bond Bread)

Wilbert Robinson (1887 Kalamazoo Bats)
Bullet Rogan (1974 Laughlin)
Edd Roush (1915 Cracker Jack)
Red Ruffing (1924 Diaz Cigarettes)
Jacob Ruppert (1962 Topps)
Amos Rusie (1889 Old Judge)
Babe Ruth (1916 M101-5/4)
Nolan Ryan (1968 Topps)
Ryne Sandberg (1982 Red Lobster)

Ron Santo (1961 Topps)
Louis Santop (1974 Laughlin)
Ray Schalk (1914 Cracker Jack)
Mike Schmidt (1973 Topps)
Red Schoendienst (1946 Sears Cardinals Postcards)
Tom Seaver (1967 Topps)
Frank Selee (1904 Allegheny) - Second Card (1980-01 Perez Steele HOF Postcards)
Joe Sewell (1921-23 National Caramel)
Al Simmons (1923-24 Exhibits)

George Sisler (1916 M101-5/4)
Enos Slaughter (1941 Double Play/W754)
Hilton Smith (1948-49 Toleteros)
Ozzie Smith (1978 Family Fun Center)
Duke Snider (1949 Bowman)
Billy Southworth (1919-21 W514)
Warren Spahn (1947 Tip Top Bread/W602)
Albert Spalding (1888 G & B Chewing Gum) - Second Card (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)
Tris Speaker (1909-11 T206/Colgan’s Chips/E90-1)

Willie Stargell (1963 Topps)
Turkey Stearnes (1978 Laughlin)
Casey Stengel (1916 M101-5/Fleischmann Bakery)
Bruce Sutter (1977 Topps)
Mule Suttles (1974 Laughlin)
Don Sutton (1966 Topps)
Ben Taylor (1978 Laughlin)
Bill Terry (1925 Exhibits)

Sam Thompson (1887 Buchner/Old Judge/Gypsy Queen)
Joe Tinker (1903 W600)
Cristobal Torriente (1923-24 Billiken/Tomas Gutierrez/Nacionales)
Pie Traynor (1922 E120/W573)
Dazzy Vance (1924 Diaz Cigarettes)
Arky Vaughan (1933 Worch Cigars/Goudey)
Bill Veeck (1952 St. Louis Browns Postcards)
Rube Waddell (1902 W600)
Honus Wagner (1902 W600)

Bobby Wallace (1902 W600)
Ed Walsh (1904 W600)
Lloyd Waner (1927 York Caramel)
Paul Waner (1925-31 Postcard-Back Exhibits)
John Ward (1886 N167/Kalamazoo Bats)
Earl Weaver (1969 Topps)
George Weiss (1973-80 TCMA All-Time Greats)
Mickey Welch (1886 N167/H812/N-UNC)
Willie Wells (1974 Laughlin)
Zach Wheat (1909-11 T206)
Deacon White (1887 Buchner)

Sol White (1978 Laughlin)
Hoyt Wilhelm (1952 Topps)
J.L. Wilkinson (2006 Yellow HOF Postcards)
Billy Williams (1961 Topps)
Dick Williams (1952 Topps)
Joe Williams (1974 Laughlin)
Ted Williams (1939 Play Ball/R303A)
Vic Willis (1903 E107)
Hack Wilson (1925 W504)
Jud Wilson (1974 Laughlin)

Dave Winfield (1974 Topps)
George Wright (1939-43 HOF Sepia Postcards)
Harry Wright (1887 Old Judge)
Early Wynn (1948 Safe-T-Card/Gunther Beer Postcards)
Carl Yastrzemski (1960 Topps)
Tom Yawkey (1959 Ted Williams Set)
Cy Young (1893 Just So Tobacco) - Second Card (1902 W600)
Ross Youngs (1919-21 W514)
Robin Yount (1975 Topps/Hostess)

LATEST HOF INDUCTEES

Craig Biggio (1988 Score Traded/Fleer Update)
Bobby Cox (1967 Topps Venezuelan)
Tom Glavine (1988 Donruss/Fleer/Tops/Score)
Ken Griffey Jr. (1989 Upper Deck/Bowman/Fleer/Donruss)
Randy Johnson (1989 Upper Deck/Topps/Fleer/Donruss/Score)
Tony LaRussa (1964 Topps)

Greg Maddux (1987 Donruss/Leaf)
Pedro Martinez (1991 Upper Deck Final Edition)
Mike Piazza (1992 Bowman)
John Smoltz (1988 Fleer Update)
Frank Thomas (1990 Leaf/Bowman/Topps/Score)
Joe Torre (1962 Topps)

[jethrod3]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

After a tremendous amount of extensive research, I have come up with the below list as true Rookie Cards of each Baseball Hall of Famer

Thanks for the comprehensive list. Just one friendly amendment, as we say in some of our committee meetings! Unless I missed him, I didn't see Gil Hodges included in the list at the bottom. Was curious about his rookie card. (BTW, I know I would have missed a ton of people myself in building such a list, and probably messed up the cards---daunting task!)

[bcbgcbrcb]

You’re right, Hodges is missing along with all of the other electees for the past few years. My original list ran through 2011 and a few years ago I went back and updated again through that year. I’ll try to do that again soon.

As for Hodges, I would go with the 1947 Bond Bread issue for his rookie card of choice.

[Rhotchkiss]

Just like with Wagner, I think W600 Type 1 Mathewson is his rookie (e107 would be second with w600 type 2 and 1904 Allegheny thereafter)

Awesome list. Thanks for posting

[jethrod3]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

You’re right, Hodges is missing along with all of the other electees for the past few years. My original list ran through 2011 and a few years ago I went back and updated again through that year. I’ll try to do that again soon.

As for Hodges, I would go with the 1947 Bond Bread issue for his rookie card of choice.

Thanks. I contemplated buying the "other" Hodges rookie care option before his HOF election but sat on my hands and now I don't have either one! BTW, I agree with your parameters/criteria for rookie card determination!

[tobychin]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

The R311 DiMaggio is a paper premium and larger size than the max for the parameters that I stated (cabintet card size).

Phil T3’s are 8 by 5.75 inches and R311s are 8x6 so what is the cutoff. I really do appreciate the work you have done putting this listing together. Thanks.

[MACollector]

Makes sense. I don’t think I had heard people call Ruth’s 33 Goudeys his rookie card before but that’s the card they use for Ruth in registries probably since it’s more available as you suggested. Some true rookies just don’t have enough copies to go around! But it’s interesting people consider Musial Leaf or Bowman his rookie card but not the Feller Leaf!

[BobC]

Originally Posted by MACollector

Makes sense. I don’t think I had heard people call Ruth’s 33 Goudeys his rookie card before but that’s the card they use for Ruth in registries probably since it’s more available as you suggested. Some true rookies just don’t have enough copies to go around! But it’s interesting people consider Musial Leaf or Bowman his rookie card but not the Feller Leaf!

Yeah, go back and find some old Beckett price guides from a few decades back, or maybe Tuff Stuffs, or some other old price guides/books, and you'll see how Ruth's rookie was considered by some as his '33 Goudey cards. Was the same thing with that 48-49 Leaf set listing a ton of rookie cards for players that had been on many different issues years earlier, like the reference made to Feller's cards form the '30s.

[bcbgcbrcb]

I also thought that the W600 Matty was his rookie card but if I recall correctly, it was determined that the Type I Matty was initially released in 1903 as opposed to Wagner in 1902. Since the W600’s continued to be distributed over many years, I went with the E107 as the dating was more specific. I did the same thing with every situation on my list where there were multiple cards initially issued during the same year, I went with the one(s) with most specific dating to that year as opposed to date ranges.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Parameters

[T205 GB]

Works the same way as Ruth, Mantle, and Gehrig's rc cards. It is what the universe wanted. lol

[bcbgcbrcb]

Good pick-up, Val. I missed the Weil Baking Sam Rice. Card has now been added to the list.