BST transaction gone very bad with "lost" check

[itjclarke]

I've been delaying posting anything here, since I'd been holding out hope my issue would be easily resolved through my bank's fraud claims department, and with cooperation from the board seller. I also don't really like drama. As is, the seller has gone completely silent over the past 2-3 weeks, ignoring both my emails and direct correspondence from my bank. For now, I am choosing not to out this seller, however if I see he posts anything new for sale, that will probably change.

Here's a quick summary.
Oct 2013- I bought an item from him off BST. Seller requests check or MO. I mail check.
Nov 2013- seller says check has not arrived. Rather than send another check, I pay via Paypal and ask that he void/destroy the check if it arrives.
Nov 2013- I receive the item
Dec 2014- 14 months after the "lost check" is written, it is cashed or deposited.

Immediately after discovering this transaction has gone through, I contacted my bank and the seller. He responded 4-5 times to my initial email, claiming not to have known anything about the check, claiming to be totally trustworthy... however saying he was not at all surprised this had happened, saying his actual sig would not look like the one on the back of the check (no one had even told him the check had been endorsed), and that it was completely my responsibility for not "cancelling" the check.

His responses were strange to me, especially his not being surprised. I know if I had sold a large dollar item, I'd very surprised and worried that someone had ended up with my mail and cashed a check in my name over a year later. Being innocent, I'd go out of my way to cooperate. I was also annoyed by his pushing any/all responsibility on to me, since he'd requested payment by check and since my bank Wells Fargo doesn't really allow me to cancel checks. You pay $32 for a 6 month renewable hold, but it does not actually cancel the check. I've also since learned (and was surprised) checks do not technically expire over time. Some banks may choose not to accept checks that are 6 months old as being "stale", however it seems many, if not most will accept years old checks indefinitely. In this case, Citizen's Bank happily accepted a 14 month old check without question. After the 6 month, $32 hold expires, you owe another $32 if you want the hold to continue for 6 more months, and this can go on forever. It would have cost $96 to protect myself for the 14 months. Knowing what I know now, I will probably never again consider a seller (BST or AH) that requests a check in lieu of an instant Paypal, Wire or CC payment.

My honest, initial reaction to all this was that it seemed far far more likely that the payee/seller was involved, since he has access to his own bank cards, IDs, account numbers... whereas if a random person had received this check, they'd likely need to falsify and/or steal all that info. That said, I tried to consider the possibility he was not involved, and if he were to have shown good communication/cooperation, it would have probably made me give him benefit of the doubt.

Since those initial 4-5 emails however, I think he's responded to 1 or 2 of my 10+ emails and been silent for nearly 3 weeks. With that, I've become fairly certain he's involved given how uncooperative and plain shady he's been--- ex: I sent him an affidavit for check fraud that he needed to sign and mail in. I sent the form with a pre-addressed and stamped evenlope so it would be easy, but he told me his lawyer and a Wells banker had told him this form should never have been sent to him, and that the bank took it from him and "destroyed" it! WTF?!?!? My bank's fraud investigator said a branch teller should have never said or done anything like this and asked me to get the branch's location from him. He did not respond to that question, nor has he responded since. This was 3 weeks ago. My bank has since sent him the same form directly, but as far as I can tell he's ignoring the process.

I don't want to get into much more detail, including steps I'm currently and will be taking, as this process is ongoing... however I want to get others' feedback, mainly- would you think the seller is likely involved... and has anyone experienced a similar form of theft and/or fraud, if so, how did it turn out? I don't want to broadcast too much to this guy, so if there are any specific tactics you think I should take, etc, feel free to email me directly at itjclarke@yahoo.com

In posting, I would also like to compel this seller to do what he should be doing here and actually respond and do what the bank is asking. His silence is definitely not the way to earn benefit of the doubt IMO.

[bnorth]

Sorry to hear of your problem Ian, hope it works out for you. Please don't take it out on all us payment Through The Mail people. I have made over 100 transactions on Net54 by check/cash with 0 problems.

[DeanH3]

Man that stinks Ian. I do wish I had something helpful for you. Good luck and I hope this gets worked out for you soon.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Sorry to hear about your problem. Don't beat yourself up - you did nothing wrong.

I disgaree with not outing the seller, as it beneifts those of us who buy quite a bit on the B/S/T. However, that is your decision and I resepct it.

I hope it works out for you. Good luck!

[Exhibitman]

I have extensive work experience chasing financial fraudsters [NOT saying that there is fraud here, just providing a frame of reference for my suggestion]. The nice thing about checks is that they leave an auditable trail. Get a copy of the front and back of your cashed check. When you deposit a check the bank stamps it with information that can be reviewed to determine where it was deposited. If it went into an account that has nothing to do with the seller or originated from a place like a check cashing service that is not where the seller is located odds are the check was stolen and cashed by a third party and the seller really is innocent.

The law is stacked 100% in favor of the banks when it comes to checking accounts:

1. Banks do not have to dishonor a check you write just because you tell them it was stolen or lost. I just had to put one on a check at WFB [$31 for 6 months] but it is ineffective if the check is cashed anywhere other than at a branch of your bank. If the check is presented for deposit and sent to your bank while a hold is in effect it will be rejected, but that's the end of the protection.

2. Banks are not liable for not catching a stale check--or any other SNAFU or breach of their own account rules--if they have 'reasonable' methods in place to administer the account and one happens to slip through. That is in the Uniform Commercial Code, which has been adopted in nearly every state in some form. And you thought Little League was the last time in life you get a trophy for trying...

3. If the bank sends you a statement every month you may have as little as 30 days to catch even the most egregious fraud/bank error or the bank may not have liability for your losses. A client of mine recently caught an ex-employee embezzling funds over nearly three years by using a fraudulent transfer instruction and the bank was liable for just the prior month's unauthorized transaction.

Great info Adam!

Very sorry to hear of this trouble Ian. Straight theft IMO, that's frustrating to read how little recourse a victim has in cases of bank/check fraud. Good advice all.

[Brian Van Horn]

Ian,

Sorry to hear about the check situation, but two questions:

1. I am not meaning to offend you, but why didn't you put a stop payment on the initial check?

2. 14 months after the fact, the check was cashed? Most banks, if I am not mistaken, will not cash a check after 180 days following the date on the check.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Ian,

Sorry to hear about the check situation, but two questions:

1. I am not meaning to offend you, but why didn't you put a stop payment on the initial check?

2. 14 months after the fact, the check was cashed? Most banks, if I am not mistaken, will not cash a check after 180 days following the date on the check.

Both of the questions were answered in the initial post:

my bank Wells Fargo doesn't really allow me to cancel checks. You pay $32 for a 6 month renewable hold, but it does not actually cancel the check. I've also since learned (and was surprised) checks do not technically expire over time. Some banks may choose not to accept checks that are 6 months old as being "stale", however it seems many, if not most will accept years old checks indefinitely. In this case, Citizen's Bank happily accepted a 14 month old check without question. After the 6 month, $32 hold expires, you owe another $32 if you want the hold to continue for 6 more months, and this can go on forever. It would have cost $96 to protect myself for the 14 months.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Both of the questions were answered in the initial post:

My apologies. I was just skimming the article. Leave it to a bank to come up with a renewable charge to stop a check.

[D. Bergin]

Sorry this happened to you. I did not know that detail about banks not actually cancelling checks and extorting the process for perpetuity. That seems downright illegal, but then again the banks & CC companies have pretty much been given a blank check (pun intended), to do whatever the hell they want to do in the last 20 years or so.

[Runscott]

Ian, you know my thoughts on this, but posting to show my support.

As far as outing the guy, I wouldn't normally recommend it as it just leads to a lot of drama, but your bases are covered and this is a significant issue - possibly the worst I've seen on an internet forum transaction. I don't think he realizes how well-respected you are, and that you are one of the least-likely people to start a thread like this, meaning it's a big deal and thread-worthy by anyone's standards.

Personally, at this point I would fry him alive.

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Ian, you know my thoughts on this, but posting to show my support.

As far as outing the guy, I wouldn't normally recommend it as it just leads to a lot of drama, but your bases are covered and this is a significant issue - possibly the worst I've seen on an internet forum transaction. I don't think he realizes how well-respected you are, and that you are one of the least-likely people to start a thread like this, meaning it's a big deal and thread-worthy by anyone's standards.

Personally, at this point I would fry him alive.

This seems like a great way to use my 500th post.

+1

[oldjudge]

Do you know the branch that the check was cashed/deposit in? If so, I would call them and tell them that the check had been fraudulently cashed and ask them to pull the camera tapes. If these tapes are still available, this will disclose who did this. Also, report this fraud to your bank. They will reimburse your funds if the check was in fact fraudulently cashed. If the seller really cashed it himself he will have more problems than the money he made was worth.

[Leon]

For the record I have been involved in this and the seller went silent on me too, however, I didn't push it because I know Ian is working on some stuff. I am helping Ian as much as I can but there isn't a ton I can do. It seems to me if this was a legit "I really didn't cash it" then the seller would not only be helping when asked, but would be very PROACTIVE, since he is being held accountable for something someone else allegedly did.