T206 350/460 series (illustrated) and why certain T-brands are mutually-exclusive
 

"Pictures are worth 1000 words"....therefore, I have constructed these scans of the 350/460 series subjects in order to illustrate how the mutually-exclusive 460-type backs
in this series resulted from American Lithographic separating these 63 subjects into two print groups.

Group A of the 350/460 series includes 35 subjects printed and issued with these four 460-type backs (circa..late 1910 > early 1911).

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...tCap460x25.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...tCap460x42.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/rh.jpghttp://i529.photobucket.com/albums/d...eaf460back.jpg
Factory #25 VA ......................... Factory#42 N.C.


Conversely, these 35 subjects were NOT PRINTED with.... AMERICAN BEAUTY 460....UZIT


Group A

.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...1cards25xx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...14cards14x.jpg

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Group B
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...14cards13x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...14cards13x.jpg


Group B of the 350/460 series includes 28 subjects printed and issued with these two 460-type backs (circa..Feb-Mar 1911).


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...nbeauty460.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...leUZITx50b.jpg


Conversely, these 28 subjects were NOT PRINTED with.... SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 25....SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42....red HINDU....BROAD LEAF 460


Furthermore.....please note my use of the word " subjects " (instead of cards). We do not actually know how many cards were printed on a standard size sheet. These group
numbers (35 and 28 subjects) are rather small. It is very likely that the Group A subjects were Double-Printed, or even Triple-Printed on a standard size sheet. I have several
350/460 series T206's with double-same-names (indicative of vertically Double-Printed cards). This same multiple printing format applies to the Group B subjects.


Note
The LENOX brand....so far, 43 of these 63 subjects have been confirmed with the LENOX back. I haven't included LENOX in this analysis since a discernible pattern isn't quite
evident at this time. It's still a work in progress.


Your inputs on anything related to this subject are appreciated.


TED Z
.

PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42
 

With respect to the 350/460 series subjects, PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 back was printed on all 63 of these subjects.


TED Z
.

+ 1
 

I concur with Ted

I received an email from a Net54 reader regarding the CYCLE 460 cards.

Apparently, the CYCLE 460 cards were printed prior to American Lithographic separating into two groups the 63 subjects in the 350/460 series.

All these 63 subjects, and the 46 subjects in the 460-only series, were printed and issued with CYCLE 460 backs.


http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...e460cyoung.jpghttp://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...e460cyoung.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...le460x25bx.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ycle460x25.jpg



TED Z
.

Ted...
 

Thanks to Chris B !! hope this helps:)

yellow brown scrap collage 350/460 overprint missing.....these were prob concurrently printed with broadleaf 460??:confused::)

Hey Johnny V......
 

....you are the man !

Thanks for posting the scan of those 350/460 series cards. That group of cards is a perfect match for the group I have defined as "Group A" in my introductory post here.

I love it when empirical evidence matches theory.

Take care, good buddy.

TED Z
.

SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #30
 

Johnny V's post reminded me to comment on the 350/460 series subjects printed SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #30 backs.

These 63 subjects were initially printed with this back. However, these cards were never issued. Instead, these cards were overprinted with the Factory #42 N.C.
designation in anticipation of the impending divestiture of the American Tobacco Co. (ATC). The SWEET CAPORAL production was to be transferred from ATC's New
YORK plant (Factory #30) to the Liggett & Myers plant (Factory #42) in Durham, NC.



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...460Fac30bx.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...illetts75b.jpg




T206 collector's value these 350/460 incomplete "scraps" printed only with yellow and brown ink and with SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #30 backs.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...x460Fac30x.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...460Fac30bx.jpg




Post script
After the "break-up" of ATC in 1911, ATC retained the SWEET CAPORAL brand. The AMERICAN BEAUTY and PIEDMONT brands went to Liggett & Myers.



TED Z
.

As a novice collector of T206, I'm utterly confused with all the back variations. Maybe my brain is fried end of week but reading above is like reading chinese. Lol

Hi Ted,
Great work on these 350/460s. The bifurcation between regular prints and super prints was in need of further explication and you and others have taken the next steps by showing these mutual exclusivities among the entire 350/460 group. I'll be thinking about what you have posted here and provide thoughts publicly or privately.
Scot

Thanks to all who share with the hobby. Would like to hear your thoughts, Scot, on Ted's findings.

Hi Scot

You & I have talked about these 350/460 factors in the past. I thought it would be less complicated for new collectors to the T206 game, by illustrating with scans of these 63 subjects.

I look forward to your inputs.

Thanks,

TED Z
.

Ted

You need to gather all of your T206 threads and put them in book form. I'm down for at least three copies.

Leon -- thanks for the words of encouragement.

Ted -- for starters, can you remind me of the history behind you having Ames as a AB460 no-print whereas Tim and Jim list him as confirmed? (If there is a history, that is).

Thanks.

Also, a question for Ted and Adam:

Does Bergen Catching exist with P42, in your view?

How about Chance Batting?

Reason I ask is there are groups of 28 and 12 that keep popping up and without these 2 I count 11 460-only subjects confirmed with P42. (Not counting Kleinow Boston or Smith Chicago and Boston as 460-only)

Scot

OK, here's the history regarding the Ames (hands above head) card......
Approx. 10 years ago, when Bill Brown created his "super-set" Excel diagram, Tom Botticelli inputted to Bill the Ames (hands above head) card with an AB 460 back.

During that time period, I ran a long-term survey on AB 460 cards (since, I was working on completing an AB 460 run). And in 2010, I posted my AB 460 survey on
Net54 which included Ames as confirmed with this back (even though I questioned it)..

In Dec 2011 when "T206resource" was posted on Net54, Ames was on their list of confirmed AB 460 cards. I strongly doubt that they found such a card (most likely
they copied my list).

In 10 years of collecting AB 460 cards, I've never seen an Ames / AB 460 card. Furthermore, David Hall (whose master T206 set approaches 5000 cards, has never
seen this Ames.

As far as I'm concerned (as indicated in my 1st post in this thread) the fact that this Ames card has recently been verified with the SWEET CAP 460 Factory#42 back
absolutely verifies that this Ames card will NEVER be found with an AB 460 back. The AB 460 backs and the SC 460 (Factory #42) backs are mutually exclusive.

I fully expect that Ames (hands above head) will eventually be found with the red HINDU back.

That's my story, my good friend.


TED Z
.

I agree! Thanks for all your tremendous research!

Scot

Here is what my records (dating back to 2006) indicate regarding Bergen and Chance with " PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 " ......

Bergen (catching) ....... Brian Weisner reported this one, circa 2008

Chance (batting) ...... I have never seen this card. Also, David Hall has yet to see this card.

Back in Sept 2006....there was a thread posted regarding a Chance with a P 460/42 back on ebay. It was the Yellow portrait version of Chance.
And, I think as the years have transpired since then, this particular card has "morphed" into the Batting version in some peoples' minds.


TED Z
.

Scot

Incidentally, here are the 12 guys listed in my PIEDMONT thread. I have (or have had) Chase (trophy), Latham, Merkle, Schaefer, Schlei (batting), and Wiltse.
The other 6 subjects have been reported by Net54 members.

460-only Series......12 subjects

Bergen (catching)
Chase (Trophy)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...0factory42.jpg..http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...0factory42.jpg




TED Z
.

David

I appreciate your suggestion. It would be quite a project, as I have been posting T206 stuff for over 10 years on Net54.

Thank you for your complimentary words.


TED Z
.

VintageJay


Thanks....I appreciate your complimentary words.


TED Z
.

T206 350/460 series (illustrated) and why certain T-brands are mutually-exclusive
 

The six super-prints ** were the first group of T206 subjects that were printed with 350 series backs and 460 series backs. American Lithographic printed
these 6 cards in their SOVEREIGN 350 & SOVEREIGN 460 press runs. This was the start of the 350/460 series, which was expanded to include 63 subjects.

The SOVEREIGN 460 cards of these 6 super-prints are very tough to find. And, especially the red Cobb.



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...CobbSGCx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...obbSGCx50b.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eign350x25.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...gn350x25bx.jpg


http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...cematty25x.jpg. . . . . . . .http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...verssov460.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...ematty25xb.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...verssov460.jpg

.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eign350x25.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eign350x25.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...gn350x25xx.jpg
. .http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...gn350x25bk.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...gn350x25bk.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...gn350x25bk.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...chasedkcap.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...chasedkcap.jpg

** Note
In his book "Inside T206", Scot Reader's excellent analysis of the T206 set identifies these 6 subjects as the "super-prints".



TED Z
.

Hi Ted, I'm sorry for changing the subject, but I'm wondering if all of these Super prints were made with Red Hindu backs as well? I don't think that a Mathewson has ever been found?

I know that they aren't part of the exclusive twelve (I think that that's what you called them in another thread), but how difficult are these with a Red Hindu?

Hi Sean

Listed here is my up-to-date info regarding the red HINDU cards The cards in the 350/460 series are all very tough to find with the red HINDU back.
Whereas, the Exclusive 12 cards (460-only series) are more available with the red HINDU backs.

To date, 31 subjects have been confirmed with the red HINDU back in the
350/460 series.

Baker
Bender (no trees)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Chance (portrait-yellow).............super-print
Chase (blue).............................super-print
Chase (dark cap).......................super-print
Cobb (red portrait).....................super-print
Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)..........super-print
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)

Magee (bat)
Murphy (batting)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing)
CYoung (glove)


460-only series (Exclusive 12)

Crandall (cap)
Devore
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Hummel
McGraw (glove at hip)
Pfeffer
Sheckard (glove)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Wheat

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...anted86/rh.jpg

The following 350/460 subjects have yet to be confirmed with the red HINDU back. All four are possible with this back.

Ames (hands above head)
Mathewson (dark cap)................super-print
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Reulbach (no glove)


TED Z
.

Thanks Ted. :)

Hi Ted,

After surveying the situation, I believe the subject composition of all backs printed in the 460 series can be defined in relation to six groups, as follows:

Group A:
Baker – Young (Glove Shows)
(consists of 28 350/460 regular print subjects -- your Group A minus super prints minus Ames)

Group B:
Berger – Wiltse (Pitching)
(consists of 28 350/460 regular print subjects – your Group B)

Group C:
Abbaticchio (Blue Sleeves) – Wiltse (Portrait with Cap)
(consists of 22 460-only subjects not printed with P42 and not part of your "Exclusive 12")

Group D:
Chance (Portrait Yellow Background) – Mathewson (Dark Cap)
(consists of 6 350/460 super prints)

Group E:
Bergen (Catching) – Seymour (Portrait with Cap)
(consists of 12 460-only subjects printed with P42)

Group F:
Crandall (Portrait with Cap) – Wheat
(consists of your “Exclusive 12” 460-only subjects)

Rule-Breaker: Ames (Arms Above Head)

* * *

Subject Composition for Backs printed in 460 Series:

American Beauty 460: B, C, E, F
Broad Leaf 460: A, D
Cycle 460: A, B, C, D, E, F (+ Ames)
El Principe de Gales: A, B, C, D, E, F (+ Ames)
Hindu (Red): A, D, F
Lenox (Black): A, B, C, D, E (+ Ames)
Lenox (Brown): B, E
Old Mill: A, B, C, D, E, F (+ Ames)
Piedmont 460/25: A, B, C, D, E, F (+ Ames)
Piedmont 460/42: A, B, D, E (+ Ames)
Polar Bear: A, B, C, D, E, F (+ Ames)
Sweet Caporal 460/25: A, C, D, E (+ Ames)
Sweet Caporal 460/30: C, D, E, F
Sweet Caporal 460/42 No Overstrike: A, D, F (+ Ames)
Sweet Caporal 460/42 Overstrike: A, B, C, D, E, F (+ Ames)
Tolstoi: A, B, C, D, E, F (+ Ames)
Uzit: B, C, E, F (+ Ames)

The reason I have Ames as a "rule-breaker" is that he is available with both SC 460/25, which does not include Group B, and Uzit, which does not include Group A.

Please let me know if you see any errors in these proposed groupings.

Thanks.

Scot

(Note 1: Of course, EPDG, Old Mill, Polar Bear and Tolstoi were earlier-printed with subjects beyond those in the listed groups).

(Note 2: And, naturally, mutual exclusivity attaches with respect to backs which have none of Groups A-F, nor Ames, in common).

Hi Scot

Everything you listed looks good to me....with the exception of your references to Ames. Sorry, but I have to differ with you on Ames for the following reasons......

1.... After 10+ years of collecting American Beauty 460 (AB 460) cards (I now have 70 of the 74 that were printed), I have never seen Ames with this back. And, I
think you will agree that although AB 460 cards are very tough, they are not that scarce that in this day there may be some still "missing in action". Such as there
are with the Broad Leaf 460, red Hindu, or Uzit backs.

2.... Furthermore, I have never seen this Ames with a Uzit back. Nor do I know of anyone having seen this front/back combo. I'm curious where you got that from ?

3.... The collage that Johnny V posted in Post #5 here clearly indicates that Ames is one of the 35 subjects printed in Group A.

4.... Finally, pardon me for reiterating this....but, there are 4 subjects (in Group A) that have yet to be confirmed with the red HINDU back. All four are possible with
this back based upon what we know regarding the mutually-printed backs in the 350/460 series. Eventually, these four will de discovered with red Hindu backs.

Ames (hands above head)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Reulbach (no glove)

Therefore, I do not believe that Ames is a "rule-breaker".


TED Z
.

Hi Ted,

Thanks for your response.

I purposely did not say Ames is extant with AB460 or Red Hindu.

So we are really down to Uzit as a point of contention.

If Ames doesn't exist with Uzit it would make my life easier since he would not be a rule-breaker.

Tim and Jim say he exists with Uzit, so I guess that's the rub.

Do you know the history behind the Ames Uzit entry?

Scot

There are some non-YB scraps that made it out the back door too.

Hi Scot

Here's what I recollect regarding Ames with a "UZIT" back. Along with my numerous T206 surveys which I started on this forum back in 2006, I ran
a UZIT survey. The response to this survey by Net54er's was pretty good, as we accounted for 48 confirmed UZIT cards in the first 2 weeks.

During that time period, an advanced T206 collector (Don) came to my booth at the Philly Show in Ft Washington (PA). He showed me his binder of
T206's which included 15 UZIT cards in a plastic sheet. I was impressed and in the course of our conversation, he told me that he had 5 (or 6) more
UZIT cards back home.

A couple days later Don called me about a trade we had planned. Also, he described the other UZIT cards he had, one of which he claimed was Ames.
I guess I trusted that he had Ames, since he appeared to be a very forthright guy at the show.

So, I guess I'm guilty of posting Ames as confirmed in my UZIT survey back in 2006 without having seen this card. My bad !

Subsequently, I proposed my theory regarding the various 350/460 mutually-exclusive backs, which have withstood the test of time. I realized then
Ames could not have been printed with the UZIT back.

So, why others here show Ames confirmed with UZIT is something that I cannot speak for.


TED Z
.

Pat R

Some nice looking 350/460 series "scraps". Thanks for posting them.

It would have been nice if these 350/460 series cards with Sweet Cap 350-460, Factory #30 backs
were originally issued (instead of being overprinted as Factory #42 cards).


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...illetts75b.jpg



Your 5 cards bring my tally up to 16 of these scraps recently in circulation on ebay. And, I'm sure
there are more of them out there.


TED Z
.

T206 350/460 series (illustrated) and why certain T-brands are mutually-exclusive
 

Including the 5 cards posted by Pat (post #28), I have accounted for 16 of these Sweet Caporal Factory #30 "scraps" in circulation......

Berger
Bradley
Burch
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy
Crawford
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Leifield
Overall
Smith (Chi & Bos)
Steinfeldt
Doc White
Wilhelm
Willis (bat)
Wiltse

Very interesting, so far all these guys are from the 350/460 series print group that I have designated as Group B.


Group B

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...14cards13x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...14cards13x.jpg




If you know of more of these 350/460 series Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory #30 "scraps", please post them here.


Thanks,

TED Z
.

Further research has accounted for 27 of these Sweet Caporal Factory #30 "scraps"....all of which are from Group B.

Missing from this group is the Lajoie card.


Berger
Bradley
Burch
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy
Crawford
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan
Lake
Leach
Leifield
Manning
McQuillan
Mullin
Overall
Pelty
Pfeister
Smith (Chi & Bos)
Steinfeldt
Tinker
Wagner
Doc White
Wilhelm
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse


If anyone knows of a Lajoie with a Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory #30 back...... please show or tell us of this card.


Thanks,

TED Z
.

T206 AB460 Ames mystery
 

Thanks for doing this research Ted.

I have done as much research as I possibly can (my computer, with all of my scans etc., crashed ~ 5 years ago), on the confirmed AB460 with Ames. The only information I have are the threads here, eBay, AH sales and my email history. Here is my conclusion.

Back in 2005 until ~ 2006 I sold off my T206 collection, which consisted of near sets of Hindu's/Cycle's/AB's. Most of the collection was sold privately, however, I did sell quite a few to board members/eBay at the time. I found an email chain where I had listed 17 AB460's to a board member. Ames was on the list (Unfortunately no scans). I contacted the board member, and he has confirmed, although we never spoke about it at the time, my colossal error.

The card was a Cycle 460 not the AB460, so I must have accidentally cataloged and mistakenly sold the card as an AB460. One of these days I will spend the money to fix the failed hard drive to confirm, however, I am now 99% sure this was an error on my part, and to note, I should have confirmed the Cycle 460 on Bill's spreadsheet since I had multiple examples. My excel copy, at that time, did not have this card confirmed. Sorry for the confusion, and great job Ted on the research.

Thanks, Tom

T206 350/460 series (illustrated) and why certain T-brands are mutually-exclusive
 

Hi Tom

I really appreciate your response here. It resolves the mystery of the "American Beauty 460" card of Ames.

Since Ames was not printed with an AB 460 back, then I'd bet that Ames was not printed with a UZIT back.


Thanks again,

TED Z
.

T206 350/460 series (illustrated) and why certain T-brands are mutually-exclusive
 

http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/d...eaf460back.jpg



The BROAD LEAF 460 cards exist ONLY in the 350/460 series. And, only 35 of the 63 subjects in this series were theoretically printed with the BROAD LEAF 460 backs.

Group A

.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...1cards25xx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...14cards14x.jpg




As of today, these 27 subjects have been confirmed with the BROAD LEAF 460 back......

Baker
M. Brown (Chicago)
Cobb (red portrait)........................super-print
Davis (A's)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)...................super-print
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Mathewson (dark cap)....................super-print
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)

Seymour (throwing
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing)
Cy Young (glove)


There are 8 subjects from this group that have yet to be discovered. I expect these T206's will eventually be found with BROAD LEAF 460 backs......

Ames (hands above head)
Bender (no trees)
Chance (portrait-yellow).................super-print
Chase (blue).................................super-print
Chase (dark cap)...........................super-print
Donlin (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Magee (bat)


TED Z
.

Hi Ted,

Sorry for the belated response. You've convinced me that Ames is a Group A guy. So here is an updated 460 series profile on which I hope we agree:

Group A:
Ames (Arms High) – Young (Glove Shows)
(consists of 29 350/460 regular print subjects -- your Group A minus super prints)

Group B:
Berger – Wiltse (Pitching)
(consists of 28 350/460 regular print subjects – your Group B)

Group C:
Abbaticchio (Blue Sleeves) – Wiltse (Portrait with Cap)
(consists of 22 460-only subjects not printed with P42 and not part of your "Exclusive 12")

Group D:
Chance (Portrait Yellow Background) – Mathewson (Dark Cap)
(consists of 6 350/460 super prints)

Group E:
Bergen (Catching) – Seymour (Portrait with Cap)
(consists of 12 460-only subjects printed with P42)

Group F:
Crandall (Portrait with Cap) – Wheat
(consists of your “Exclusive 12” 460-only subjects)

* * *

Subject Composition for Backs Printed in 460 Series:

American Beauty 460: B, C, E, F
Broad Leaf 460: A, D
Cycle 460: A, B, C, D, E, F
El Principe de Gales: A, B, C, D, E, F
Hindu (Red): A, D, F
Lenox (Black): A, B, C, D, E
Lenox (Brown): B, E
Old Mill: A, B, C, D, E, F
Piedmont 460/25: A, B, C, D, E, F
Piedmont 460/42: A, B, D, E
Polar Bear: A, B, C, D, E, F
Sweet Caporal 460/25: A, C, D, E
Sweet Caporal 460/30: C, D, E, F
Sweet Caporal 460/42 No Overstrike: A, D, F
Sweet Caporal 460/42 Overstrike: A, B, C, D, E, F
Tolstoi: A, B, C, D, E, F
Uzit: B, C, E, F

Thanks.

Scot

(Note 1: Of course, EPDG, Old Mill, Polar Bear and Tolstoi were earlier-printed with subjects beyond those in the listed groups).

(Note 2: And, naturally, mutual exclusivity attaches with respect to backs which have none of Groups A-F in common).

Hi Scot

I like the way you presented the 460 series profile. And, it all looks good to me.


Thanks,

TED Z
.

Thanks Ted.

I'm not 100% sure about Bergen's availability with P42 (not sure where you are on that), but we can leave him in Group E for now.

Scot

Hi Scot

I too, am uncertain about Bergen.

My records dating back to 2006 indicate that his card was confirmed with Piedmont #42.

Then sometime (circa..2008) Bergen was unconfirmed. Then again, he was confirmed in 2010. But, I cannot find who reported this in 2010.


Incidently, with the exception of Overall & Schaefer, the other 10 guys are all New York based players. Is this a coincidence, or by design ?

Bergen (catching)
Chase (Trophy)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


TED Z
.

Hi Ted,

There are two ways we can confirm Bergen as a Group E guy (and not a Group C guy) -- (1) P42 or (2) Brown Lenox. I'm not holding my breath a Brown Lenox will pop up though. The other thing is that with Bergen in Group E we have 12 subjects in the group, which is a 2x multiple of Group D (super prints) and the same number as in Group F (Exclusive 12). This would seem to make sense from a printing perspective.

I don't think the NY heavy composition of Group E is a coincidence, but I don't have a great theory on that at the moment.

Take care,

Scot

Scot

If I understand what you are saying regarding Bergen with a brown LENOX back, it should be proof that he indeed was also printed with PIEDMONT 42....if Bergen
is found with a brown LENOX. Since, it appears that there is a coincidence between PIEDMONT 42's and brown LENOX cards in the 460-only series.


460-only series subjects with PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 and brown LENOX cards......

Bergen (catching)
Chase (Trophy) ..................Brown LENOX
Latham .............................Brown LENOX
Marquard (follow thru) ........Brown LENOX
Merkle (throwing) ...............Brown LENOX
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schlei (portrait) ..................Brown LENOX
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap) ............Brown LENOX


TED Z
.

Precisely.

Group E subjects were printed with both P42 and Brown Lenox. Group C subjects weren't printed with either P42 or Brown Lenox. Thus, if Bergen is found with either P42 or Brown Lenox, he is Group E and was printed with both. (Whether he SURVIVED with both is of course another question).

Hi Scot

Thanks for mentioning the "12 factor" ......which I think it is inherent in the series structure of the T206 set. This factor has become increasingly apparent
to me since I completed my 2nd T206 set in 2004.

In your book, "Inside T206", you further refined this factor by introducing the factor of 6 in the printing structure of the T206 cards (i.e., six Super-Prints,
6 - horizontal T206's, etc.).



TED Z
.

Speaking of six, your above post shows that exactly six of the 12 Group E guys are so far confirmed with Brown Lenox. It is possible I suppose that Group E needs to be further bifurcated into two subgroups of six each, half printed with Brown Lenox and half not, although I think it's more likely that the to-date confirmation of six Group E guys is mere coincidence. Time may tell.

Attachment 229871The seller that sold the large group of SC 350-460 Factory 30 "no print" scraps
also sold a large group of SC 350-460/30 subjects that were hand cut.

Attachment 229866

There were multiple sales of each subject from the "no print" group
and most of the regular subset subjects were sold in multiples too.

Attachment 229870
Attachment 229871

Attachment 229867
Attachment 229868
Attachment 229879
Attachment 229880
What's interesting is the subjects that didn't come up for sale.

Here's the list of "no prints" that were sold

Sold

Berger
Bradley
Burch
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy
Crawford
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan
Lake (no ball)
Leach
Leifield
Manning
McQuillan
Mullin
Overall (hands at face)
Pelty
Pfeister
Smith (Chi & Bos)
Steinfeldt
Tinker (bat Off)
Wagner
White
Wilhelm
Willetts
Willis (batting)
Wiltse (pitching)

No sale

Ames
Lajoie (bat)

The list of subset subjects

Sold

Abbaticchio
Ball (Clev)
Bell (follow through)
Bergen
Bescher
Bridwell (with cap)
Camnitz (arm at side)
Camnitz (hands above head)
Chance (batting)
Crandall (with cap)
Devore
Doyle (port)
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog
Howeell
Hummel
Lake (with ball)
McGraw (glove at hip)
McGraw (with cap)
Meyers
Murray (port)
Needham
Oldring
Overall (hands at waist level)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schulte
Sheckard
Smith (happy)
Stovall
Tannehill
Tinker (bat on)
Wheat


No sale

Chase (trophy)
Duffy
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle
Schaefer
Schlei (batting)
Schlei (port)
Seymour (port)
Wiltse (with cap)

Hi Pat,
Thanks for the input. This seems more or less consistent with what we've been saying in this thread since all of the SC460/30 no-prints among the scrap were Group B guys whereas Ames (Hands High) is a Group A guy. As for the yes-prints, maybe a little surprised that Bergen (Catching), Murray (Portrait) and Overall (Hands at Waist) were among the scrap when the other Group E guys weren't. Who knows what that's about.
Scot

Hi Scot,

There could be a number of reasons why but the no sale of Lajoie from the no
prints and Duffy from the subjects that were printed with this back stand out.

There were three Bergen & Overall's that sold and two Murray's.

Attachment 229925
Attachment 229926
Attachment 229927
Attachment 229928
Attachment 229929
Attachment 229930

T206 350/460 series (illustrated) and why certain T-brands are mutually-exclusive
 

Pat and Scot

I'm not sure I understand why these 460-only series subjects with Sweet Cap 460 Factory #30 backs are of interest here.
As we all know, these guys were normally issued with this Sweet Cap back (unlike the 350/460 series subjects).

What am I missing in this discussion ?


TED Z
.

T206 350/460 series (illustrated) and why certain T-brands are mutually-exclusive
 

In light of the 2 long anticipated, and recently discovered, rare T206 front/back combos** in the 350/460 series,
I'm reviving this thread in search of more missing rare T206's in this series.
I'll start this search with red HINDU cards.

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...anted86/rh.jpg

Thirty-one of the 35 subjects in the 350/460 series in Group A have been confirmed with the red HINDU back.
These 4 remaining subjects have yet to be confirmed with the red HINDU back.

Ames (hands above head)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Reulbach (no glove)

If anyone on this forum has (or has seen) any one of these 4 cards, please show or tell us of them. Thanks, in advance.


** Note....the 2 recently discovered T206's referred to above are: Tinker (bat off shoulder) / PIEDMONT 460, Fac. #42
and Donlin (bat) / LENOX


A following post here searches for the missing BROAD LEAF 460 cards.


TED Z
.

Reprising illustration of subjects in Group A
 

Group A of the 350/460 series includes 35 subjects printed and issued with these four 460-type backs (circa..late 1910 > early 1911).

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...tCap460x25.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...tCap460x42.jpghttp://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...anted86/rh.jpghttp://i529.photobucket.com/albums/d...eaf460back.jpg
Factory #25 VA ......................... Factory#42 N.C.


Conversely, these 35 subjects were NOT PRINTED with.... AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 .... UZIT



Group A

.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...1cards25xx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...14cards14x.jpg


TED Z
.

http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/d...eaf460back.jpg

The BROAD LEAF 460 cards exist ONLY in the 350/460 series. Only 35 of the 63 subjects in this series
were theoretically printed with the BROAD LEAF 460 backs.

There are 8 subjects from Group A that have yet to be discovered. I expect these T206's will eventually
be found with BROAD LEAF 460 backs......

Ames (hands above head)
Bender (no trees)
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Donlin (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Magee (bat)


If you have (or know of) any of these 8 guys with BROAD LEAF 460 backs, please show or tell us of them.


Thanks,

TED Z
.

Group B

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...14cards13x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...14cards13x.jpg



UZIT

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...TWiltse50b.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ITWiltse50.jpg



Unlike the missing BROAD LEAF 460 and red HINDU subjects in Group A, all 28 subjects in Group B have been confirmed with the UZIT back.


350/460 series...............................28 subjects

Berger
Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball-St Louis)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)

Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Doc White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)



TED Z
.

There sure was some nice eye candy in this thread. Thanks for sharing, everyone (especially Teddy Z)!!

T206 350/460 series (illustrated) and why certain T-brands are mutually-exclusive
 

Group B

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...14cards13x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...14cards13x.jpg



AMERICAN BEAUTY 460

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...obbbat50xb.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ffAB460x50.jpg



Unlike the missing BROAD LEAF 460 and red HINDU subjects in Group A, all 28 subjects in Group B have been confirmed with the AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 back.


350/460 series...............................28 subjects (complete)

Berger
Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball-St Louis)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)

Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Doc White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)



TED Z
.

Great Stuff
 

Great stuff guys. Thanks for keeping up with it all. In my experience with the PD 42's the ones not confirmed by sale or scan are:


Bergen Catching
Chance Batting
Murray Portrait
Overall Hands at Waist (Blue Sky)

I think the Cobb Red portrait and Joss pitching could of been double printed. Simply an observation based on the quantity seen and sold over the years.

Scot, i'm a year late on answering your question !!

Hi Adam

We ran a survey in April 2009 regarding the red Cobb vs its 30 backs (T206, T213, T214, T215, etc.).

The results of a survey clearly indicate that the red Cobb with Piedmont 460, Factory #42 must have been Double-Printed.
Check-it-out......
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...d+cobb&page=18


I cannot speak for the T206 Joss (pitching).


TED Z
.

Thanks, Leon

Quoting Jackie Gleason's favorite saying.... " How sweet it is ".... all this "eye candy" :)


TED Z
.

Pat,

It probably doesn't matter much to the point you were making, but I believe my Overall makes at least 4 (could be one of those, but looks slightly different). I bought it during the kw1b1 auctions.

T206 350/460 series (illustrated) and why certain T-brands are mutually-exclusive


Hey guys,

Let's stick with the topic of this thread......the 63 subjects in the 350/460 series cards. These cards are clearly illustrated in Group A and Group B.

Regarding these posted cards with SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #30 backs......

Bergen (catching)
Howell (hand on hip)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)

These 4 guys are 460-only series subjects of which the SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #30 is a normal back.

Injecting these 4 into the conversation in this thread tends to confuse readers who are trying to understand the complexities of the 350/460 series.

The 460-only series cards are for another thread on another day.

Thank you.

TED Z
.

Hey Guys,

Still hoping to get some inputs from you regarding the missing 8 subjects with BROAD LEAF 460 backs (post #51 )......and,
the missing 4 subjects red HINDU backs (post #49 ).


I'm traveling to the Valley Forge Philly Show today, perhaps I'll find some of them there :) :).


TED Z
.

Thanks
 

Thanks Ted. I can assure you I am familiar with all the Factory 42 posts on Net54.

Ted,

If you're concerned about confusing readers you should clear up this discrepancy involving your group A subjects for those that search the archives.

Your group A subjects are all AB460 no-prints but in this thread about the
AB460 subset you put together you have four of the group A subjects listed
in your set. Ames (hands over head), Baker, Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
and Snodgrass (Catching).
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...page=2&t=91361

Hey Pat

Don't worry guy, most readers of my threads are not confused. My T206 theory's and the empirical knowledge I've gained from putting together various sets (and sub-sets)
these past 37 years. And, my collecting experience that I have very generously shared with members of this forum speaks for itself.
Anyone here is free to check-out the T206 information posted in the "Consolidated access to the 15 - T206 T-brand (front/back) surveys....UPDATED " thread which
Leon has archived......
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=132611&page=6

And, I am surprised at your remarks regarding my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 information and the near complete run (70/74) of these cards that I have put together. It has all
been documented in this Net54 thread...... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=124927&page=5
Which you are up to date on, since you have posted on this thread in 2016.


However, you choose to go back 8+ years to a thread that I posted, in which I listed 4 mistakes (out of 70 cards). Three of which (Baker, Elberfeld, and Snodgrass) in which
I discovered later that they actually had to be AB 350 cards. Unfortunately, these 3 cards in my collection had back damage and it wasn't easy to tell whether they were 350
or 460 (Factory #25 or Factory #42, respectively). Furthermore, back then Bill Brown's T206 Super-Set Excel list indicated that these 3 subjects (plus Ames) were confirmed
AB 460 cards. And, I have since then proven that these 4 subjects could not be AB 460 cards.


Anyhow, I'll tell you what really "ticks me off" about your remarks. I heard these EXACT words from some one 8 years ago (who doesn't post on Net54 any more). I sense
that this person has put you up to posting his 8-year old remarks (it's typical of his sick style). So, I dare you to deny that this is why you posted these negative remarks ? ?

I didn't think this was your style !


TED Z
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________
LOOKING for these 4 - T206 guys to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (74 cards)

CAMNITZ (hands over head)....DOYLE (portrait)....McGRAW (portrait-cap)....TINKER (bat off shoulder)
.

[QUOTE=tedzan;1607413]Hey Pat

Don't worry guy, most readers of my threads are not confused. My T206 theory's and the empirical knowledge I've gained from putting together various sets (and sub-sets)
these past 37 years. And, my collecting experience that I have very generously shared with members of this forum speaks for itself.
Anyone here is free to check-out the T206 information posted in the "Consolidated access to the 15 - T206 T-brand (front/back) surveys....UPDATED " thread which
Leon has archived......
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=132611&page=6

And, I am surprised at your remarks regarding my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 information and the near complete run (70/74) of these cards that I have put together. It has all
been documented in this Net54 thread...... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=124927&page=5
Which you are up to date on, since you have posted on this thread in 2016.


However, you choose to go back 8+ years to a thread that I posted, in which I listed 4 mistakes (out of 70 cards). Three of which (Baker, Elberfeld, and Snodgrass) in which
I discovered later that they actually had to be AB 350 cards. Unfortunately, these 3 cards in my collection had back damage and it wasn't easy to tell whether they were 350
or 460 (Factory #25 or Factory #42, respectively). Furthermore, back then Bill Brown's T206 Super-Set Excel list indicated that these 3 subjects (plus Ames) were confirmed
AB 460 cards. And, I have since then proven that these 4 subjects could not be AB 460 cards.


Anyhow, I'll tell you what really "ticks me off" about your remarks. I heard these EXACT words from some one 8 years ago (who doesn't post on Net54 any more). I sense
that this person has put you up to posting his 8-year old remarks (it's typical of his sick style). So, I dare you to deny that this is why you posted these negative remarks ? ?

I didn't think this was your style !


TED Z


No Ted nobody put me up to posting this. I have noticed discrepancy's
in several of your posts. I refrained from posting about them but I have had
enough of your condescending remarks like uninformed, ignorant, naïve, ect...

There is no doubt that you have done a lot of research on this set but for
me it is negated by the fact that you can't admit when you make a "mistake".

By the way Snodgrass (catching) wasn't printed with any of the American
Beauty backs so your back damage excuse doesn't cut it with me.

[QUOTE=Pat R;1607544]Hey folks....if some one posts critical comments about you today that are identical to what you've heard from some one else 8 years ago, what is the probability
of this occurrence being just coincidental ? The probability is some where between 100,000 - Million to 1.

So....knowing you have a connection to that other party....you are not being truthful.

OK, you want to talk about mistakes....I admitted 8 years ago that I made on some of those T206 front/back cards. We were all still learning about The Monster.

And, what is more important is that my subsequent research resulted in significant information that is presented in this thread to Net54 members who appreciate
all this "nitty-gritty" stuff regarding T206's.

So, let's discuss your mistakes starting with this thread......in posts #45 and #47 you posted images of 460-only series subjects (Howell, Bergen, Overall, Murray)
that DO NOT pertain to the 350/460 series cards that this thread is devoted to. It is a distraction in the subject matter being discussed here.

If you want to talk 460-only series cards, why not simply start another thread.


TED Z
.

[QUOTE=tedzan;1607576]Well this statement is ironic Ted. I have been truthful, no one influenced what
I have said and frankly I don't care if you believe me . I'm sure
it's similar to what a few other members have posted in the past because it's
based on facts, you have said you owned cards that are no prints and when
confronted about them you continue to lie about it.

Now how about being truthful about the Snodgrass.

[QUOTE=Pat R;1607608]
Hey Pat

1st....I had Street (catching) mistakenly identified as Snodgrass (catching).

OK, I made an honest mistake....give me a break !

And, I don't believe you, Pat. You heard that "B-S" from your buddy, and you know it.

Can we now get back to Dec 2016....instead of harping on some thing in Nov 2008. This "B-S" of your's is insane (it's sick). ! !


TED
.

Group pic
 

Ted,

I would love to see a scan of the 460's you have put together. I am going after the no frames now as well. Needed a new conquest after almost being done with the PD 42's (lacking 1 based on my calculations).

Hello Adam

Sixty-six of my AB 460 cards can be seen in this thread I started 4 years ago titled......" Show off your AMERICAN BEAUTY's....T205's and/or T206's ".
Check-it-out......http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=158706


Please email me....I have some thing interesting to tell you.

tedzan11@comcast.net


TED Z
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________
LOOKING for these 4 - T206 guys to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (74 cards)

CAMNITZ (hands over head)....DOYLE (portrait)....McGRAW (portrait-cap)....TINKER (bat off shoulder)
.

Deleted
.

350/460 series Brown LENOX cards
 

While the Black LENOX "connection" is still a work in progress, the 17 confirmed Brown LENOX cards (to date) indicate a definite trend they are exclusively from Group B.

Group B
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...14cards13x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...14cards13x.jpg



350/460 series Brown LENOX......17 subjects (to date) confirmed

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Willetts
Willis (bat)

If this trend continues, eventually I expect that we will discover the remaining 11 subjects from Group B with Brown LENOX backs.

I would appreciate your inputs regarding this subject.

Thanks,

TED Z
.

Lenox Backs
 

Ted Z,

I'll have some Lenox backs on here tomorrow !! Looking forward to keeping this alive !!

Brown Example
 

Here is a good example of the Brown writing.

Hi Adam

It's an excellent and clear example of a brown LENOX.

Thanks for posting it,


TED Z
.

Futhermore, there are 6 subjects in the 460-only series that have been confirmed with brown LENOX backs.
They are......

Chase (trophy)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

I expect more brown LENOX from the 460-only series will eventually be discovered.


TED Z
.

Hi Adam

Consider the following....I have an idea that there may be a connection between the 9 subjects in the 460-only series
confirmed with PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 backs and the brown LENOX cards. What's your thinking on this linkage ?


PIEDMONT #42...................brown LENOX

Chase (trophy)......................Chase (trophy)
Latham.................................Latham
Marquard (follow thru)............Marquard (follow thru)
Merkle (throwing)...................Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)......................Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (batting).......................?
Schaefer (Washington)............?
Seymour (portrait)..................?
Wiltse (portrait-cap)................Wiltse (portrait-cap)


TED Z
.

Connection
 

At first glance I see that they are New York and Washington players...I will dig in a bit more this weekend to see what else I can find.