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The "Exclusive 12" of the T205 set
Hey guys....here is that recurring 12 factor again....that is found throughout the various white-bordered & gold-bordered sets' structure (1909-1914). These 12 subjects in the
T205 set differ from the "Exclusive 12" in the T206 set. There are several reasons why I refer to these 12 as such. For starters, they are the only Minor Leaguers in the T205 set. All 12 subjects represent teams in the Eastern League. They are found only with 2 advertising backs....HASSAN Factory #649 or POLAR BEAR. And their artistic designs are unlike the other T205 designs. I would speculate that the artist that that drew these 12 subjects is the same artist that created the T80 (Military Series) cards. However, these 12 Minor Leaguers were printed at the tail-end of the T205 press run....as, the bios on the backs of these cards detail events as late as the Summer of 1911. I do not claim to be an expert on T205's. However, we do have T205 experts on this forum, who have different theories than mine as to when these 12 guys were introduced into the T205 set. So, I would really appreciate if they would chime in here with their thoughts on this subject. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eneecadfri.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...tmerphecol.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...neecadfriB.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...erphecolBx.jpg T80 examples http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...HiAdjGen25.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...Tolstoi25b.jpg TED Z T206 Reference . |
Ted, I always enjoy your thoughts and questions. They always make us think. My thought is that the minor league cards are not a part of the T205 set but a part of the total of T205's. I know this sounds crazy but putting it out there for positive and negative criticism. I think the T205 set that we know of could be T205-1 since they mention the 1910 season and the minor league cards T205-2 and the remainder of the 400 designs maybe a combination of the T205-2 or maybe a T205-3 subset. I find it odd that the minor league cards mention the 1911 season as if it already passed. Kinda like the cards were issued late in the year of 1911 or early 1912. Maybe there were plans for the rest of the 400 designs when something happened and the rest of the 400 (T205-3) were called off. This is just a thought of mine. I just have a hard time believing that the 400 designs is the total of T205's, T80's and the gold border birds series. What does everyone else think? Be easy on me ;)
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I do believe the same artist did the fronts for the T43 birds, T80s, and minor league T205s, but the backs on the military series are all "more T206-like" than similar to T205s. Cairo, Uzit, Old Mill, Tolstoi, all brands we don't see in T205. The minor league T205ers have the same style backs as the T205s we know and love. I think the minor leaguers were printed at the same time as the other major league guys, whenever that was. Ron, I dunno man :)
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Ted and Ron,
I have mentioned this before but a little research into the backs of the minor leaguers pretty much proves that they were issued later in the set. Most probably in early 1912...Hick Cady was sold to the Red Sox in January of 1912 and it makes mention of this on his t205 card. Not to mention that many of the cards reference happenings towards the end of the 1911 season (Dunn talks about early August 1911 and Frick being sent to Troy which happened late in the season....he only played about 40 games with Troy). I have a feeling the fronts were created first but the back type was created later. Thus the mention of some of the team changes, stats, etc. from later in 1911/early 1912. There are also some other oddities about the teams mentioned on some of the backs of the MLers but they escape me at the moment. Joshua |
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Jimmy Collins card mentions he retired early 1911 so I also would assume the backs we created late 1911 or very early 1912.
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Also, Ted, that is a very nice Jimmy Collins card. He is my favorite card in the set. Is that auto real? If so then Jimmy had nice pensmenship.
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Peter
The guy I acquired this Jimmy Collins card from said he did not think it was an authentic autograph.
Perhaps, someone on this forum has an original Collins autograph that we can compare with ? Thanks, TED Z |
Ted, here's a piece on Collins autograph style.
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Eric
Thanks
The autograph on my card does not appear to be that far off from Jimmy's real autograph. I guess, the next time I see Jimmy Spence, I will have him check it out. Best reagards, TED Z |
love hearing more info of the T205 set! Great posts
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I think its a good possibility Ted. I'd love to see some miscuts of the Minor leaguers, it would help us to piece together the sheet. This old thread was a good start. I'd love to see that miscut Bergen again too...hint hint Adam.
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Thanks for bringing up my 6+ year old thread....you certainly did some searching. Anyhow, here are a some of my mis-cut T205's that tell us something about the printing of these specific cards. Most interesting is the Eddie Collins card, since it obviously indicates that this Collins was at least DOUBLE-PRINTED horizontally on its sheet. Whereas, the John Titus/Tony Smith mis-cut was printed as expected (as we know that these 2 subjects were in the same series (or sheet). http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...smiscut50x.jpghttp://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...insWCbk50x.jpg http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...titussmith.jpg TED Z |
T205 Minor Leaguers
As touched upon above, it has always been my feeling that the "Minor Leaguers" subset (if you will) was, in essence, a precursor of the "Topps Traded" set-- prepared late in the distribution process to account for some rookies who made it to the majors, as well as some of the players who were traded, subsequent to the initial issuance of the bulk of the set. Talk amongst yourselves.
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Love that Titus card Ted.....thanks for sharing...
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Have we found any top bottom miscuts of the same card? I know that there are some showing same colors but it could be 5+ different cards. We have seen several side by sides. I was able to confirm Joss side by side on Pied 25 last yr at nationals.
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Here's a Hoffman top bottom. I don't own it.
http://www.net54baseball.com/attachm...1&d=1334118409 |
That's awesome Eric. So far only the SP's are found side by side and looks like the commons may have been printed top to bottom. Any thoughts on that??
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Is there any kind of color pattern on the sheets? For instance yellow/reds on one side and blue/greens on the other. In the Titus/Smith example, both cards are reddish/yellow.
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I would say there was a color pattern. And, I tried to illustrate this in my 12-card scan............ http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...pscfdc1d32.jpghttp://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4227030d.jpg TED Z |
It seems that every side to side miscut of the short prints has the same card next to it...so I wouldn't say that the Collins in a double print...but that this series or class was printed in rows. I'd love to see more examples or something to disprove this idea...or hear other thoughts on it.
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Eric anything is possible. I have always been outside the box in saying that the fronts were printed first and then the backs. Also I do think that there were more than one back being printed at once.
It has kinda been proven that these so called SP's with more than 3 backs are nothing more than tougher cards that have been snatched up. When I discussed this before, specifically the K White, there was only a few available but still not unobtainable. Now there seems to be a flood of them available in multiple conditions. Maybe someone could find the SP list thread I made? I will see if I can find my documents I wrote. I know they are blasphemy to some collectors but who cares. They have some info regarding availability IMO. |
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Collins, Wiltse, white, and so on are not SP's. Way to common compared to a true SP like Grant or Dahlen. JMO |
I don't have my notes in front if me but I do feel that collins open wiltse one ear white sweeney and a few others are single prints. The back matrix sort of bears this out. I also believe that there is a second level of tougher single prints that include suggs grant turner wagner raymond and a few others and the back matrix bears this out as well....so really there are several layers of single prints (tougher cards). I think I made a list of these two subsets in a previous thread.
Joshua |
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This top/bottom miscut shows Brown and Shean, which with a Hassan back, would be the SP Cubs version. Not sure what info, if any, this could provide to the discussion but it would show that, on this sheet at least, the SP's were not duplicated top/bottom.
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Awesome miscut Marc.
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Was wondering why only the Hanford has the RED backgroumd by his name, any ideas?
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I have always found the Hanford card to be very odd because of the red background on the name and also the border design, both of which are unique to this card. All of the other minor leaguers have at least three subjects that share an identical border design and obviously the standard yellow background color on the name. It's quite curious to me that they would have drastically changed these things for a single card in the set.
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Just find it very interesting why thats the only card in the set with a red name background. There must be some reason. something made them pick that 1 card and mack such a different change.
Also the top border is different too. |
That's what makes this set the best
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The "Exclusive 12" of the T205 set
Hey guys
Some nice mis-cut cards. Thanks for posting them; and, show us some more of these T205's. TED Z |
Here's one that might help, Byrne over Sheckard. Again, I'm not the owner of this card.
http://www.net54baseball.com/attachm...1&d=1297091744 |
So far zero SP's have the top bottom miscuts making the assumption that SP's were DP side by side correct. I am going to step out on a limb and say its possible some commons could have been printed in blocks of 4. Cards like Wolter and Shean come right to mind.
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If the t205 minor leaugers were in fact distributed around the same time as the t80s, this catalog page shows that it was right at the end of the t206 print runs in early 1911. Here's the whole thread.
http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/ladypaper/T206.jpg |
Another top bottom miscut that I do not own. Camnitz.
http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=10494 |
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Hanford
I think that there were supposed to be many more T205 Gold Borders.
Obviously the backs indicate that there should be potentially 400. It is likely that many of the unissued cards were to be minor leaguers. Some here noted the red nameplate for Hanford. The border is unique for Hanford because he is on a different team than the other mL players. There would be more Jersey City players with that design if they issued them, which appears unlikely by now. The company likely created that border for JC team, anticipating issuing several other players. It just seems like an unfinished project to me, nothing more. This set is the best of all of them in my opinion, I wish they had finished it. |
interesting, its red cause hes on NJ, and like you said they probably were going to do more from that team but didnt finish.
When you say "Obviously the backs indicate that there should be potentially 400" Why do you think this? |
In a previous thread on T205's, Andrew (T205 GB) posted his theory regarding the "400 DESIGNS" printed on the backs of the T205's......
"I have had a theory that the T80 and T42 series were part of the "T205's" or Gold Boarder's thus adding to the 400 designs. That would add 150 more designs to the 220+ cards in the t205 set. That would take the total to 370 without considering any variations possible for these sets that are unknown. Back designs are similar also, especially the Sweet Caporal backs. Knowing that Mecca produced the T202 cards using the T205 designs as end panels in 1912 makes it possibly plausible since the T80 and 42's are found with Mecca backs also and were produced just after. Kinda like the 1880's A&G Series cards." This sounds like quite a plausible explanation for the "400 DESIGNS" to me. TED Z |
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Interesting, could be possable. The T80 are almost exact - and check this one out - http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-T80-Tob...item416a62139d
Have the red back of the name like in the, Hanford card |
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Definitely sounds plausible, but have reservations about that, as the T80s weren't distributed with the same tobacco companies that had the T205s. I would think that if they were going to be part, they would have been available with the same advertisement as their counterpart. Especially if they were to be included with the 400 design count. I'm a believer that there was supposed to be additional cards added during a later run. Nothing to prove that, just my opinion. r/ Frank |
I still think that it is an unfinished series. I am no expert here and maybe someone who has a little better grasp of the tobacco history might be able to fill in some gaps.
We know t205s were most likely distributed at the end of 1911...one really large thing happened during this time. The ATC breakup happened in November of 1911. This could have affected several things with relation to printing of the t205s. Here are some ideas of mine...if anybody can confirm or deny, please help... 1st. When the ATC broke up the ATC consolidated its holdings in NC, VA, and KY. These are where the Hassan cards were printed and if I recall, Hassan was a brand that remained with the ATC. 2nd. Polar Bear was to become part of the Lorillard Tobacco company after the split. I was wondering if the Polar Bear and Hassan ML cards were printed prior to the breakup (fronts) and issued and packed before the breakup was finalized. These being the last of the t205s issued. If the breakup never happened...would the 400 designs promise be upheld? Just wondering what impact the breakup had on this issue that was clearly produced right in the middle of the ATC anti-trust suit. Joshua |
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Now we get the back issues. Who really cared what some foreign general or a bird's bio was. Much easier to use what was already made for backs and they were in very short print runs anyways. SC does show up the same on these backs though. Thats what lead me to this theory. I was incorrect on some of what I wrote and during a conversation with Ted Z this was brought to light. I did not however go back and change it . Sorry about that guys. |
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None of us really know and are only speculating anyways. The fact zero cards have been found unfinished of unconfirmed players says a lot also with no documentation either. The military and bird series are the same time frame, same boarder design, and only lack bios. The bigger companies paid to be advertised on the baseball subjects while the smaller took the non important ones. Who knows really.
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Some T42s and T205s backs side by side for comparison. Sorry no scanner:o
http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=10513 http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=10514 |
I would ask those who believe that these comprise one large 400 card series, why they think that the bird cards would state "Bird Series 1 to 100" on the backs? If the logic is that "Base Ball Series 400 Subjects" means that there are 400 TOTAL subjects among baseball/bird/military cards, wouldn't it follow that the bird series would state the same "400 subjects"? And the T80s also, for that matter?
Of course it's all just speculation, so I'm not saying that anybody is right or wrong here. All we have to go by is logic and circumstantial evidence. To me, it feels like these are all different releases, albeit with some obvious similarities. |
The bird series was the first 100. Then military series and then the great baseball series:D
I do think if it was all baseball for the 400 then it would say "subjects" and not "series". The word "series" leads me to look elsewhere for the 400 thus the thought about bird and military series being included. |
"subjects" and "series" really does not matter to me...that is just how they designated them on certain cards...t42 is certainly related to the gold borders in that they were issued with certain packages of cigarettes and printed by the same lithographer. But, the t42 bird series is indeed 100 subjects...or a series of 100. I have a feeling that the baseball was to be extended at some point to 400 and that something happened. It could have been anything really...break up of the ATC, problems at the printer...machine issues, ink issues, etc. The gold borders were almost certainly more expensive to produce than t206s...maybe after the ATC breakup the money was not there for such a project and it was abandoned. Who knows?
I would really wish there was more information about how and why certain cards were included with certain brands. Did they feel that people that smoked certain brands would be more apt to buy them because they had baseball cards or fish cards? Was the marketing that sophisticated back then? (I suspect it was). Would love to have been in those meetings. Joshua |
I have no basis for this but I would tend to think that there were Supposed to be 400 baseball cards. Probably the break up of the company derailed the making fot the rest of the cards. Looking at the current set there are many players, that im sure they didnt leave out on purpose.
The T80's really do have the same look to them though |
Honest Long Cut
Baseball Series Assorted Designs You can read that many ways. To me it says it part of something else. I don't think they only half completed the intended set though. They did print for nearly 2 yrs correct. Just lesser amounts. |
Honest Long Cut, Drum, Broadleaf, and Polar Bear all read: Baseball Series Assorted Designs...to me that reads that in the baseball series there are assorted designs (ie national league, american league, minor league designs). I have a feeling if they were talking about different sets they would have led with Assorted Designs Baseball Series.
Cycle, Hassan, American Beauty, Sweet Caporal, Piedmont, and Hindu all read: Baseball Series 400 Designs. Again...sounds to me like there are 400 baseball designs...otherwise they would have led with 400 designs baseball series. It is all semantics...and let us not forget that the set designations were completely arbitrary and created nearly 40 years after these sets were produced. Although looking at the other sets produced by the ATC that list the series and number of cards on the back at the time like the birds, fish, military, leaders, etc. nearly all of them if I recall correctly listed the amount of cards or series on the back and were fairly accurate with the number. I do not recall different assorted series being linked across the subjects. Maybe the non-sports guys could comment on this. Joshua |
T58 1st series & T205 side by side for comparison. There were 2 series of T58s IIRC, 1-50 and 50-100.
http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=10516 |
I collect a lot of the non-sports sets and I am not aware of any ATC sets that link different series of unrelated subjects into one set. There are a (very) few from this era like the T227s that have assorted athletes beyond just baseball players, but I can't think of any ATC release that combines and self-identifies athletes and non-athlete cards into a single set.
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The "Exclusive 12" of the T205 set
1911 was a very ambitious year for American Lithographic in terms of Tobacco premiums. For starters they finished off the T206 set. Then started their Gold-Boarded sets.
These T80 Military Men were first. Here are some of my nicer T80's. I wish the T205 cards looked as pretty as these guys. Followed by the T42 Birds set and of course the T205's. Furthermore, the T201 cards, the T77 Lighthouse series, etc., etc. Can anyone here name some more 1911 sets ? http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...ps081620ee.jpg http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5274f434.jpg http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...ps088f5c56.jpg http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...ps8bcafe80.jpg http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...ameccacobb.jpg http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...hassant205.jpg Hey guys....imagine opening a UZIT or LENOX cigarette pack in the Spring of 1911 and finding a T206 card and a T80 card. UZIT pack http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...zogUZITx50.jpg. .http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...ps0cdff612.jpg http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/t...ogUZITx50b.jpg. . http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...psf850733f.jpg LENOX pack http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...ps6cc89446.jpg .http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3d99c1af.jpg TED Z |
I definitely agree that it seems odd that they stopped so far short of 400 subjects, but there are so many inexplicably missing players (Lajoie, Wood, Alexander, Flick, McKechnie, Jackson, Carey, Waddell, Plank, Crawford, Cole, Coombs, just to name a few big ones) as well as examples from other sets where the T205 artwork was used for players NOT in the T205 set:
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=163810 It is quite plausible that there was another major series intended to be produced that simply never got off the ground for whatever reason. Given what we know from various contemporary writings, there was significant demand for the baseball player cards at that time. So I have to believe that the better option would have been to continue the baseball series with at least some of the aforementioned very popular players rather than change course and put 100 bird cards into the set instead. I mean, I like the Ruffed Grouse as much as the next guy, but I imagine I'd have much rather pulled a Nap Lajoie. |
althought this will never happen, but it would be amazing, if there was a new find of the uncirculated cards that never made it into the cigarette packs, ie, "the millsing 192" or whatever. ahhhh the dreams of a T205 collector.
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So perhaps they were a bit unpopular either as old fashioned or if art nouvaux, just not all that good. They were also probably expensive to produce. The silver border T220s may have been a set cut short for the same reason, but were finished witout the silver borders. T207s would have been much cheaper to make. Using maybe half as many colors. And 200 less 8 pose variations plus 200 T207s also comes in right at 400. (And yes, that's a huge stretch given nearly no shared backs between those two sets) Steve B |
Steve, its not that far of a stretch, they have broad leaf and cycle backs in common. Maybe they were transitioning to newer brands, we don't see as many cycle and even less broad leafs in t205 compared to piedmont, sweet cap, etc.
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I've always found the possibility intriguing that the T207 set was meant to be the final series of T205 as the numbers would be very close to matching 400. The thing that always pulls me away from that conclusion though, is the player duplication. There are 80+ subjects, including quite a few players who were scarcely even minor stars, in the T207 set which are also in the T205 set. Some duplication would be expected, especially with the more popular players, as is seen with the different T206 series. But to repeat nearly half the set's players, with only a few of those overlapping players being top stars, seems unlikely to me.
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Wasn't Shoeless Joe's first full season 1911? If there were T205s issued early 1912 doesn't it seem logical that a guy batting .400 the season before would be included in the set? So, maybe there were other T205s planned for early 1912 along with the minor leaguers...
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Shoeless Joe
Bob:
They didn't want to put an "X" for Joe's facsimile autograph on the front of the T205. That's why he wasn't included in the set :D Michael |
Actually, I recall another explanation for the lack of Shoeless Joe and other A's stars of the time on another thread from several years ago. Something about a caramel company and player rights. Can't remember the exact thread...anybody else remember this?
Joshua |
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Joshua I think you are alluding to my "Plank theory" thread in 2006, when I proposed a theory to try to explain why Plank was yanked....and, certain Phila A's players (including Joe Jackson) did not appear in the 1st series of the T206 set......http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...y+plank+theory More recently, I have attributed the removal of Plank from the T206 set due to the fact that he was a strong anti-tobacco guy. Hey guys, Regarding your linkage of T207's as an extention of the T205's....I have always suspected that the T207 cards were not produced by American Lithographic. The printing style of the T207's is not typical of American Litho. Furthermore, the lack of the usual T206 subjects in the T207 set makes me more suspicious that ATC contracted out this project to some other printing firm. Anyhow, that's my thinking regarding T207's....I would be very interested in your's ? TED Z |
Steering this back to T205, I think it's a stretch to combine T207 series with T205 to reach the 400 design number. There are too many holes in that theory for me.
I also don't think the Birds or the Generals or any other non-sport set were the missing designs either. It still remains a possibility and all we can do is speculate, but this is just not the thory I choose to side with:p I am sticking with the "unfinished set" theory where they simply didn't complete their original intention. Perhaps the ATC breakup contributed to this. Maybe the cost of these ornate designs simply caused the new bosses to change their minds. I don't think it would be too difficult (albeit a bit time consuming) to propose the remaining ~192 players into the set. There are lots of established stars missing from T205, likely dozens of fringe players and practically the entire Eastern League to choose from (less 12). Let's take a crack at it... |
t42 birds and t80 military are not added to t205s to get to 400. Even if you add them all together they still don't come up to 400.
The t42 set has 50 white borders and 50 gold borders. The t80 set is 50 so you would only have 100 gold to ad to your 205 total. T80s are issued with Cairo Monopol, Lenox, Old Mill, Tolstoi and Uzit. 205 are not issued with these brands and are not related. Also there are Uzit and Tolstoi letters that say to issue 1 baseball and 1 military subject in each pack of cigarettes. There is no Lenox letter. |
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T44 Birthday Horoscopes https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-v...k/s889/T44.jpg T56 Emblem Series https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Q...45/Emblem1.jpg T57 Fable Series (First Series) https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-b...8/T57+50+7.jpg T69 Historic Homes https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-k...s988/Home1.jpg |
So maybe I wasn't to far fetched to think the T205's were part of the T206 set. As you said Jim the T42's went from white to gold boarders.
Either way no one has proof to disclaim my theory or theirs. So no one really can really say for sure. |
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Some colorful cards....especially the T69 Historic Homes. TED Z |
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Great thread, Ted. |
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