That's a reasonable analysis but then why is Orlando/Sloan's first statement on the matter an obvious effort to protect against the possibility of a big payout by trying to minimize the scope of the problem, and telling people to go to their sellers with a problem and not PSA? Unless of course the seller is "unknown." Right, I buy lots of cards from unknown people on street corners. Why not just own up to the issue, do their best to help defrauded collectors, institute some positive changes, and move forward? If they truly can afford to deal with this, their instincts are very poor in my opinion.

I know these threads are long but the info is largely all there at this point. In their recent stockholders statement they say that they have no insurance that would cover their guarantee.

Yes it's in the risk factors section of the K.

This is from their 10k

In the case of trading cards, in fiscal 2018, the authentication and grading fees ranged from approximately $1 to $3,575 but averaged $8.74, per trading card. As a
general rule, collectibles dealers and, to a lesser extent, individual collectors, request faster turnaround times and, therefore, generally pay higher fees for more valuable, older
or “vintage” collectibles than they do for modern collectibles.


It is a publicly traded company with stockholders. I would expect them to try and protect the fort. We will know more in the coming months as stories from affected individuals will make it online. I posted a copy of the info my friend Rob (Wrestlingcardking) got from PWCC and it looks to me like it isn't going to be a slam dunk that he sees a refund quickly or at all. Time will tell. In his case the card is in his registry set so many collectors might be faced with the choice to send back the card and break up their set. I could see a scenario where some keep the cards.

Reading through it now and will find it and post it.

This is interesting.


We do not provide a warranty with respect to our opinions regarding the authenticity or quality of autographs or memorabilia.

it is a company that ultimately depends on the faith of the collecting community. I would expect them to do what it takes to restore and preserve that faith even at the expense of a short term hit to the bottom line. The corporate culture seems to be one of secrecy and an ostrich-like stance vis a vis the community. Poof -- kinda says it all.

Here it is


We could suffer losses on authentication and grading warranties.
In general, we issue an authenticity or grading warranty for coins and trading cards that we authenticate or grade. Those warranties provide that:
■ if a coin or trading card that we authenticated and sealed in one of our tamper-evident plastic holders are later determined by us not to have been genuine, we
would have to purchase the collectible at its current market value had it been genuine; or
■ if a coin or trading card that we graded and sealed in one of our tamper-evident plastic holders later receives a lower grade upon resubmission to us for grading,
we would be obligated either to purchase the collectible at the market value at its original assigned grade or to pay the difference between that value as
compared to the value at the lower grade.
We have no insurance coverage for claims made under these warranties, and therefore we maintain reserves for such warranty claims based on historical experience.
However, there is no assurance that these warranty reserves will prove to be adequate, and as we expand our services in overseas markets, we may incur higher warranty
claims than we have experienced in the past. If our warranty reserves prove to be inadequate, our gross margin and operating results could be harmed. As a result, we monitor
the adequacy of our warranty reserves on an ongoing basis.

Hey Ben hope you are doing well. I am sure if you go back a few years you would remember O'Keefe.

I am very curious to see what happens with the Musial PSA 10. It appeared that some ink was added to the card and if they can't tell when it is in hand I could see the grade standing.

If it gets refunded I could also see them going after this Moser guy and trying to recoup their money that way.

Time will tell.

I hope the hell PSA goes down the drain. They created a product so people would be sure their cards are real and turned it into a money making ripoff. I wouldn't send a card to PSA again if the price for grading was $1.00. They have turned into an absolute joke. And yes I have a number of cards graded by them, but never again. Frank.

Maybe the author of this book is the referenced O'Keefe?

It's a good book and came out in 2007 - I wish I had paid more attention to it. There is a whole chapter where the author visits a card doctor who shows him examples of cards he gets past TPGs.

https://www.amazon.com/Card-Collecto.../dp/0061123927

That be he.

I can only speak from cards I have seen ink added to or altered in some way. What I have noticed is the ink actually forms a layer over the adjoining ink and is identifiable under magnification. When holding it back and looking at the card from arms distance these spots sometimes show up as surface marks, wax stains, halos, or scuffs and passed off as such. If the person reviewing does their due diligence they will review the spots individually. Stop to think about the time it will take a person to review that much data. How many cards will go by before one is legit altered? There are a lot of ink altered cards out in holders old and new simply due to the variable ratio schedule. BUT, Such high end cards should be given to a couple of specialized graders that are given ample time to review regardless of turn times.

I am amazed at how much focus is being made on the inks dots when the biggest tell its altered is blatant. Never in the history of ever did these cards come from the factory clean shaved. The paper cutting guillotine machines didn't allow for it to occur. The real collectors know this and so do all the graders familiar with this time frame of cards. Yes some are prettier than others but all have fiber pull and none will ever come off razor sharp without the factory rolled edge. The card has been altered for a while and its a shame it made it back this far.

Interesting theory posted on blowout......

“Aren't the cards surfaced after printing? This is how Moser has been able to get recoloring past PSA graders -- after recoloring, he's been resurfacing the gloss on the cards, so that whatever work he's done appears to have occurred before the card's original surfacing was applied.”

Could that be possible?

From PSA's most recent 10-Q (qtr ended 3/31/19), pg 11 https://q10k.com/CLCT

Warranty Costs



We provide a limited warranty covering the coins and trading cards that we authenticate and grade. Under the warranty, if any collectible coin or trading card that was previously authenticated and graded by us is later submitted to us for re-grading and either (i) receives a lower grade upon that re-submittal or (ii) is determined not to have been authentic, we will offer to purchase the collectible or, in the alternative, at the customer’s option, pay the difference in value of the item at its original grade, as compared to its value at its lower grade. However, this warranty is voided if the collectible, upon re-submittal to us, is not in the same tamper-evident holder in which it was placed at the time we last graded it. We accrue for estimated warranty costs based on historical trends and related experience. We monitor the adequacy of our warranty reserves on an ongoing basis for significant claims resulting from resubmissions receiving lower grades or deemed not to have been authentic. Warranty expense recognized in the three and nine months ended March 31, 2019 was $73,000 and $402,000, respectively, as compared to $128,000 and $343,000, respectively, in the three and nine months ended March 31, 2018.


Also from that same 10-Q page 12

Their accrued warranty reserve at the end of 3/31/19 looks to be $728,000.

Wherever there is money to be made, there will be a shady side.

4 to 7 Beliveau RC

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2873

It's very possible. What usually trips up the people who regum stamps (a similar process) is that the new gum runs just over the edge and soaks into the side, where it's often really obvious.

Is nothing sacred with this guy?? I'm blown away at how many tainted cards are apparently out there!

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2878

That viewable difference is what I'd expect. I believe it's possible to do it better, so it's less obvious.

All TPGs need to reverse the in house time tiered pricing, and review the card as long as it takes to get it right nearly every time.

That rolled edge is the key for sure. A newly sharpened blade won't have much roll, and one side of the cut rolls a bit more than the other. And that roll survives a ton of abuse, I have cards that are P-F and it's still easy to spot.

:cool:MOST Bought from PWCC
ALL sold by PWCC

What's sacred?

wait for it

Money

Bump. Any answers, Brent?

Jerry Springer voice: And the lie detector test said, "That was a lie."

They're not going to bury their head in the sand, but by not logging into Blowout or Net54 in 20 days, I think they've basically done just that.

Yeah that was very sincere remorse.

That’s Maury Povich, with the lie detector. Springer would involve a brawl between buyers, trimmers, graders and PWCC.

Good call; I thought him at first, but then I thought he couldn't still have a show. ;-)

There are no signs of this slowing down. So many cards.

If you guys are waiting on a response from Brent.....GOOD LUCK, he's still laughing his ass off along with Probstein....

This is a good a place as any to mention BODA found a 2008 Moser purchase trimmed, graded, and sold by PWCC in Feb 2012.

I suppose that scam was fully operational them, those cards are just harder to find wading through 1000s of pages of old scans.

Their relationship goes back to at least the mid 2000s.

Not aimed at a particular post, just at this thread (and the others) in general.

Thank you Adam for adding to my enjoyment.

Doug

So whats the normal time period before we start to see what happened and how it happened. 2 years?

Sotheby's restorer claims to work on baseball cards, shows altered 1933 Goudey Gehrig as repaired on Facebook:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...297351&page=39
Scroll down a couple.

This is a thread (very old net54), I just came across, involving Beckett, PWCC and a re-backed t206 red Cobb Drum. Interesting in today's Context.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=90096

Doctors will deny, prove it, it’s slabbed in a holder.

Auction Houses.....I didn’t know ?? Card was slabbed in a holder when was consigned to us.

PSA...brings no mention of it up....we are hiring graders and improving security measures along with taking pictures of all higher end cards submitted for grading. When you’re paying for a Opinion that’s all you get theirs is what it is....hard to be held accountable.

Outcomes from all this ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. ZERO ACCOUNTABILITY OR PUNISHMENT FOR THOSE INVOLVED.

Card Trimmers and Doctors we all know who many of them are have Never been charged or found guilty of any crime.

People will still buy and submit to Newport Beach and SGC Hand over fist. People will still give their stuff to auction houses. Doctors will still be doing whatever they want....never been criminally prosecuted no consequence so why stop trying.

This cycle will continue to go on.....

Wait, who's Hans?

Type Hand ie hand over fist

Hans Overfist. German boxer from the 1880s.

Lmao !!!