T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>In light of the most recent "phony" T206 Red Cobb with a DRUM back, I thought it would be informative to post the following<br /> list of DRUM cards. In addition, I have observed a commonality between four of the tougher T-brand backs that I feel is worth<br /> discussing here.<br /><br /><br />1st.....Shown here are the four T206 backs produced for the 350 Series that have identical stylized FRAME and lettering. It<br /> is probably safe to conclude that the same artist at American Lithographic Co. (ALC) designed these four backs. The design<br /> is exactly the same....just the name of the T-brand differs.<br />These tougher T206 cards were very likely inserted in their respective cigarette packs at the end of the 350 Series run. Scot<br /> Reader's "Inside T206" book identifies the release of American Beauty 350 cards in the Summer of 1910 (quite later than the <br />availability of the Piedmont, Sweet Caporal, and Sovereign 350 cards). The Cycle, Broad Leaf, and Drum cards, I would theor-<br />ize, were available simultaneously with the American Beauty's, or in the Fall of 1910.<br />Therefore, due to this late date, the T206's in particular with Broad Leaf, and Drum backs were very Short-Printed.....as ALC<br />was more involved in producing their last (460) Series of cards to be released at the end of 1910 and early 1911.<br /><br />However, there appears to be an emerging pattern, that all 4 of these backs were printed on certain Subjects. For example:<br />Dineen is found with AB 350, BL 350, Cy 350, and DRUM. If this observation is valid, then it can prove to be very valuable in<br /> predicting the availaility of a DRUM (or a Broad Leaf) back. Incidently, this "rule" is only applicable to Subjects (approx. 200<br /> cards) in the 350-only Series and the six Super-Prints.<br /> <br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/ambtybl350cycledrum.jpg"><br /><br /><br />This list reflects 28 years of recorded DRUM backs......there are a total of 80 Subjects.<br />Of these, 30 are from the 350/460 Series. <br /><br />Arellanes<br />Atz<br />Baker<br />Barbeau<br />Barry (Milwaukee)<br />Becker<br />Bender (no trees)<br />Berger<br />Burch (fldg)<br />Burke<br />Carr<br />Chance (yellow)<br />Chase (dark cap)<br />Collins (Minnesota)<br />Crawford (bat)<br />Delehanty (Louisville)<br />Dineen<br />Donovan (throw)<br />Doolan (bat)<br />Dorner<br />Downs<br />Larry Doyle (bat)<br />Elberfeld (Washington-fldg)<br />Engle<br />Evers (Chi-yellow sky)<br />Fiene (portrait)<br />Graham (Boston)<br />Griffith (bat)<br />Hallman<br />Hinchman (Toledo)<br />Hoblitzell<br />Hofman<br />Huggins (hds/mouth)<br />Jackson<br />Jennings (dance)<br />Johnson (pitch)<br />Jordan (bat)<br />Killian (portrait)<br />Knabe<br />Konetchy (glove lo)<br />Krause (portrait)<br />Lake (no ball-St Louis)<br />Lattimore<br />Maddox<br />Magee (bat)<br />Marshall<br />Mathewson (dark cap)<br />McAleese<br />McBride<br />McQuillan (bat)<br />Milan<br />Moeller<br />Moran<br />Moriarty<br />Murray (bat)<br />Myers (fldg)<br />Overall (yel sky)<br />Pfeister (throw)<br />Phillippe<br />Pickering<br />Quinn<br />Reulbach (no glove)<br />Randall<br />Rudolph<br />Seymour (throw)<br />Speaker<br />Stahl (glove)<br />Steinfeldt (bat)<br />Stephens <br />Street (fldg)<br />Sweeney (bat)<br />Sweeney (fldg)<br />Taylor<br />Thielman<br />Titus<br />Wagner (bat/right)<br />Wilhelm (bat)<br />Willetts<br />Willis (bat)<br />Zimmerman<br /><br /><br />Net54er's....feel free to add to this list any T206 DRUM cards that do not appear on it.<br /><br /><br />TED Z<br />

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Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>Ted - an authentic red Cobb w/ Drum sold last year in a SGC AUT slab.<br /><br />- Jon<br /><br />Edited to add: it was lot 646 in the November 2007 Hunt Auction... <a href="http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=32&lot_num=646&lot_qual" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=32&lot_num=646&lot_qual</a>=

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Posted By: <b>Adam</b><p>"You will note that an original (authentic) Red Cobb with a DRUM back has yet to be sighted."<br /><br />Does this mean SGC got it wrong in labeling the one Jon pointed out as authentic?<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>I believe Brian Weisner noted knowing of more than one legitimate example of the red Cobb/Drum. Perhaps he will chime in here before long.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Are u ignoring me?

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Guys,<br /> I will post scans of 2 legit Cobb/Drum's when I get back home... I don't think my wife could find them in my massive scan gallery. Be well Brian<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jim Rivera</b><p>Ted,<br />Here is a list I have on file and you can add Slagle and Strang. Also this list does not include the Hunt find.<br /><br />114 I think<br /><br />350 subjects:<br />Bill Abstein<br />Frank Arellanes<br />Jake Atz<br />Jap Barbeau<br />Shad Barry ML (Milwaukee)<br />Emil Batch ML<br />Beals Becker<br />Jimmy Burke ML<br />Charley Carr ML<br />Doc Casey ML<br />Josh Clark ML<br />Jimmy Collins Minneapolis (HOF)<br />Bunk Congalton ML<br />Paul Davidson ML<br />Frank Delehanty ML (Delahanty, Louisville)<br />Bill Dineen (Dinneen)<br />Wild Bill Donovan (throwing)<br />Gus Dorner ML<br />Jerry Downs ML<br />Clyde Engle<br />Jerry Freeman ML<br />Peaches Graham (Boston)<br />Bill Hallman ML<br />Harry Hinchman ML (Toledo)<br />Dick Hoblitzell<br />Solly Hofman<br />Miller Huggins Hands at Mouth (HOF)<br />Jimmy Jackson ML<br />Joe Kelley (HOF)<br />Ed Killian (portrait)<br />Otto Knabe<br />Harry Krause (pitching) "White" cap<br />Harry Krause (portrait)<br />Rube Kroh<br />Bill Lattimore ML<br />Jimmy Lavender ML<br />Ed Lennox<br />Paddy Livings tone (Livingston)<br />Nick Maddox<br />Billy Maloney ML<br />Doc Marshall<br />John McAleese<br />George McBride<br />Dan McGann ML<br />Clyde Milan<br />Fred Mitchell ML (Toronto)<br />Pat Moran (Chicago)<br />George Moriarty<br />Red Murray (batting)<br />Billy Nattress ML<br />Simon Nichols (Nicholls) (batting)<br />Deacon Phillippe<br />Ollie Pickering ML<br />Jack Quinn<br />Newt Randall ML<br />Bob Rhoades (Rhoads) (hands at chest)<br />Charlie Rhodes<br />Lou Ritter ML<br />Dick Rudolph ML<br />Boss Schmidt (portrait)<br />Jim Scott<br />Jimmy Slagle ML<br />Fred Snodgrass (batting)<br />Tris Speaker (R) (HOF)<br />Charlie Starr<br />Sam Strang ML<br />Gabby Street (portrait)<br />Bill Sweeney (Boston)<br />Jake Thielman ML<br />John Titus<br />Bob Unglaub<br />Jack Warhop<br />Heinie Zimmerman<br /><br />350/460 subjects:<br />Home Run Baker (R) (HOF)<br />Chief Bender No Trees (HOF)<br />Heinie Berger<br />Al Burch (fielding)<br />Frank Chance Yellow Portrait (HOF)<br />Hal Chase Black Cap<br />Ty Cobb Red Portrait (HOF)<br />Ty Cobb Bat off Shoulder (HOF)<br />Sam Crawford With Bat<br />Mickey Doolan (batting)<br />Larry Doyle (N.Y. Natl., with bat)<br />Kid Elberfeld (Wash., fielding)<br />Johnny Evers Chicago (yellow sky) (HOF)<br />Lou Fiene (portrait)<br />Lou Fiene (throwing)<br />Clark Griffith Batting (HOF)<br />Hughie Jennings Two Hands (HOF)<br />Walter Johnson Glove at Chest (R) (HOF)<br />Tim Jordan (Brooklyn, batting)<br />Red Kleinow Boston<br />Ed Konetchy (glove near ground)<br />Joe Lake (St Louis. No ball, r.h. visible)<br />Sherry Magee (with bat)<br />Rube Manning (pitching)<br />Christy Mathewson Dark Cap (HOF)<br />George McQuillan (with bat)<br />Danny Murphy (batting)<br />Orval Overall (hand face level)<br />Barney Pelty (vertical photo)<br />Jake Pfeister (Pfiester) (throwing)<br />Ed Reulbach (no glove showing)<br />Cy Seymour (throwing)<br />Harry Steinfeldt (with bat)<br />Jeff Sweeney (New York)<br />Heinie Wagner (bat on right shoulder)<br />Kaiser Wilhelm (with bat)<br />Ed Willetts (Willett)<br />Vic Willis Batting<br />Hooks Wiltse (pitching)<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Millerhouse</b><p>I can add a Purtell with a Drum back to the list.<br /><br />Millerhouse

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Thanks JON,<br />1st time I have seen a Red Cobb/Drum in 28 years that I have confidence in, that it wasn't a re-backed one.<br /><br />I'll add this card to the list.<br /><br />TED Z<br />

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Thanks JIM R<br /><br />This a is great start....let's keep adding more T206 Subjects with DRUM backs to the list..<br /><br />Also, Guys and Gals <br /><br />I would appreciate any of your thoughts on my "American Beauty-Broad Leaf-Cycle-DRUM (ABCD) connection" ? <br /><br />With the added DRUM's to the tally, this "ABCD connection" is proving to be more than just a "wild" hypothesis.<br /><br /><br />BRIAN W<br /><br />I look forward to your inputs.<br /><br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>Jim Rivera</b><p>1 more addition<br />there was a Herbie Moran on ebay a couple weeks ago<br /><br />If you check the 54 archive there was a thread on this and between Art M., Brian W. and Bill H. the list was a little over 100. I am sure that is where I got my list.

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Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>Knabe to the mix.

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Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>Ted,<br /><br />With regard to asking for opinions on the backs, although all four are near matches, I do feel that the AB back is slightly different which makes me wonder is the AB were released before the other 3 - possibly summer of 1910 with Drum, Cycle and Broadleaf coming later.<br /><br />Specifically, when you look at the 3: Drum, Cycle and Broadleaf - they are perfect matches. You could literally paste one over the top and everything lines up. While AB is very close, there are differences between the AB backs and the other 3:<br /><br />1.) 350 Subjects appears on 1 line, not 2 lines<br />2.) the "g" in Cigarettes is slightly less stylized<br />3.) the "a's" in "American Beauty" do not match the "a" in "Broad Leaf"<br />4.) The "r" in "American" does not match the "r's" in "Broad" or "Drum"<br /><br />Thoughts?<br /><br />- Jon

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>My 1st order comparison is the Frame design, which I think you will find is perfectly repeated on all four brands,<br /><br />Now, I believe I said that the AB's were most likely issued first (Summer of 1910); and, subsequently the BL, Cy,<br /> and DRUM. And, the proof of this is in their sheer numbers. AB's are considerably more plentiful than Cycle, and<br /> of course Broad Leaf and DRUM.<br /><br />My theory is simple....the later that year that these 350 series cards were produced....the less of them that were<br /> printed (hence, less are available 99 years later).<br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>I did quite a few searches and couldn't find any threads that had extensive DRUM lists. Perhaps, I didn't search enough. So,<br /> I posted my list.<br />Do you have the URL link to the Net54 thread you referred to ?<br /><br />TED Z<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jim Rivera</b><p>Ted,<br /><br />I will try to find it.<br />I just remember copying the Drum list from a thread. There was a list of 70 or so, then Bill H. gave his input and the list wentover 100.

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Posted By: <b>David R</b><p>Ted,<br /><br />The one opposing piece of evidence on your American Beauty-Broadleaf-Drum connection seems to be the Bresnahan with bat card. I have it with an American Beauty back and I just saw that card sell on eBay this week with a Broadleaf back. I noticed that card, however, is not on your Drum back list. Does it exist with the Drum back and, if not, does that disprove the connection? <br /><br />David R <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1212448843.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1212448821.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1212448977.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Your......<br />"The one opposing piece of evidence on your American Beauty-Broadleaf-Drum connection seems to be the Bresnahan with bat card."<br /><br />Not so....I have a Bresnahan (Cycle 350 back). Therefore, given your two backs, I fully expect a DRUM back to show up eventually.<br /><br />I am going to post all the known T206's that conform to my "A-B-C-D connection".<br /><br />TED Z<br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jim Rivera</b><p>Here you go Ted<br /><br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1191807064/last-1192475008/Re-+T206+DRUM+backs+population+report" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1191807064/last-1192475008/Re-+T206+DRUM+backs+population+report</a>

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Thanks much......I was searching back 3 to 5 years ago.<br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Ted,<br /> I don't have access to my data at the moment, but I can tell you that there are many similiarities with these four brands. I do not believe they are perfect matches, just as most of the other patterns in this "release" have abnormalities. Bresnahan batting is an interesting example... As I have always felt that it was the "Super Print" of the 350 series... <br /><br />I have the following (Bresnahan) tougher backs, and I have seen several of each, but NO Drum's... <br /><br />2 Broad leaf's <br />1 Carolina Bright<br />2 American Beauty's<br />1 Cycle<br />1 EPDG<br />1 Old Mill<br /> <br /> Personally, I believe that Drum's are scarce because they were only introduced as a Cigarette brand in late 1910 and had little or no time to develop a customer base before the 1911 ATC breakup. Drum had always been a loose tobacco brand before Duke aquired it, and it returned to a loose brand after the breakup. <br /> <br /> PS I'll add more whe I get home.........<br /><br />Ted, here's a real Drum/Cobb<br /><img src="http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q257/hogan6g/Scan0001-1.jpg"><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Here is a list of the 350-only cards that conform to the "A-B-C-D connection"....they cover all four bases.<br />As time goes by more T206's will show up with all four backs.<br /><br />I'm looking for a CHASE (blue portrait) with a DRUM back to touch all "four bases".<br /><br />Abstein<br />Arellanes<br />Barbeau<br />Batch<br />Clark<br />Congalton<br />Davidson<br />Delehanty (Louisville)<br />Dineen<br />Downs<br />Engle<br />Hinchman (Toledo)<br />Ed Killian (portrait)<br />Knabe<br />Kroh<br />Maloney<br />Milan<br />Mitchell (Toronto)<br />Moran (Chicago)<br />Nattress<br />Purtell<br />Randall<br />Rhodes<br />Slagle<br />Speaker<br />Strang<br />Unglaub<br /><br />And, here are the Super-Prints (Am Bty 350 with Frame) that conform to the "A-B-C-D connection"......<br /><br />Chance (portrait-yellow)<br />Evers (yellow sky)<br /><br /><br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>You are a good ole buddy....you always come thru with the good stuff.....thanks for the info.<br /><br />TED Z<br />

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>Moran - Providence

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Posted By: <b>barry arnold</b><p>Ted,<br />This ABCD connection is most interesting and may well be as seminal a contribution to the hobby as your Primacy of Piedmont theory.<br /><br />I would like to reraise Jon Canfield's question, if I may. In your initial<br />premise, you maintained that the 4 backs have identical stylized Frame and<br />lettering. You go on to say that it is probably safe to conclude that that same artist at ALC designed these four backs---the design is exactly the same...just the brand name differs.<br />Jon agrees that D,C, and B are perfect matches but underscores that while<br />AB is close, there are differences... . <br />Your response to Jon is that your 1st order of comparison is the Frame design.<br /><br />Since it is clear, I believe, that Jon's nuancing of the ABCD connection is correct, do you continue to maintain that the same artist designed these 4 backs? Do you think that the differences which Jon elucidates simply point to the AB's being printed at a different date from the other 3, providing corroboration for your point regarding BCD's printing simultaneity.<br /><br />great work, Ted<br />best,<br />Barry

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Hey Guys,<br /><br />This frame discussion has me wondering about the dimensions of the frame. I have one Broadleaf, no Drums... so I'm not able to make a precise comparision.<br /><br />What I'm thinking is that the AB frame is done first. Look at how nicely "Beauty" fits in between those curly-ques (Barry, how do I spell that?). Then the other brands come along... "Cigarettes" looks a bit cramped in there, doesn't it?<br /><br />The American Beauty cards are not as wide, as we all know, 'cause the American Beauty cigarette packages were slimmer. And it seemed that from a thread about Broadleaf not long ago that they too are a bit slimmer. My one Broadleaf looks ever so slightly thinner than a normal card. Cycle cards are full size, I think. And I suspect Drums are but I do not have one. If American Beauty cards came before B, C, & D, it seems American Litho could have either kept the same size frame for all cards, the easiest; or engrave a new frame that would better fit the normal size cards, requiring additional work.<br /><br />So... do the frames on all the cards seem exactly the same size? Are AB frames smaller? And are Broadleaf frames slightly smaller too??<br /><br />Frank.

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Always great to hear from you, you are certainly one who appreciates these subtleties regarding the Monster.<br /><br />OK, there is no argument regarding the Frame design on these four brands. Incidently Barry....of all basic 15<br /> T-brands.....AB, BL, Cy, and DRUM are the only backs that share the same design. <br /><br />Let's look at the lettering style (I show these two for illustrative purposes)....what words all 4 have in common:<br /><br />1....CIGARETTES<br /><br />2....Base Ball Series<br /><br />3....the type style is identical for "350 SUBJECTS".....but, AMERICAN BEAUTY requires 2 lines, therefore "350<br /> SUBJECTS" is printed on one line.<br /><br />4....all four T-Brands are "Factory No. 25, 2nd Dist. VA"<br /><br /><br />Now, regarding the trivial differences in the large lettering of the T-brands......<br /><br />1....the "A" variability between "American Beauty" and "Broad Leaf", I attribute to economy of space.<br /><br />2....I see no difference in the "E" in "AMERICAN" and "LEAF"....and, an extremely minor difference in the "E"<br /> in "BEAUTY".<br /><br />3....The "R" differs (slightly) between "AMERICAN", "LEAF", and "DRUM".<br /><br /><br />Barry, I am no expert on artwork; however, I have a great friend who is a professional artist. I will seek his<br /> opinion on this subject. And, I will report back to you.<br /><br />In any event, whether it was the same artwork (or not), the thrust of my point on the "A-B-C-D connection"<br /> was meant to provide some insight into why certain T-brand backs are much tougher than others....based on<br /> the time frame when they were issued.<br /><br />Best regards,<br /><br />TED Z <br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/abcdesignstyle.jpg"><br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/cycle460murrayb.jpg"><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Great question.....<br /><br />All four T-brand FRAMES are identical in size.....2 7/16" by 1 1/4"<br /><br />Best regards,<br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>RayB</b><p>Once again Ted Z energizes a scholarly post on the beloved Monster.<br />Thanks Ted. Great reading.<br />RayB

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Good to hear from you. How's that EPDG set coming along ?<br /><br />TED Z<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barry arnold</b><p>Many thanks, Ted, for your carefully articulated and cogent response.<br />I look forward to hearing the contributions of your professional artist friend,too.<br />You continue to help us see the excitement available to all of us when scholarly research is done.<br />many thanks for your scholarly efforts,<br /><br />best,<br /><br />barry

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Posted By: <b>Chris</b><p>The nuances of T206 are not something that I know a lot about, but based on the posts in this thread, I thought the following images might be of interest. I took the above posted backs and superimposed the AB over the others. #2 is mostly to show the different in the "Cigarettes" text (and similarity in "Base Ball Series" text), though the border otherwise matches.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.ffcosearch.com/t2061.gif"><br /><img src="http://www.ffcosearch.com/t2062.gif"><br /><img src="http://www.ffcosearch.com/t2063.gif"><br /><br />Let me know if there's a better/different combo that you'd like to see.

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Now if someone would work on a Drum list of T205s, I'd be eternally grateful!

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Thanks, Chris, for the fancy image work.<br /><br /><br />So Ted, others....<br /><br />Is this correct?<br /><br />1 - American Beauty cards were the first of the 4 ABCD's to be printed and distributed.<br /><br />2 - Broad Leaf cards (2 separate words) are not of normal width, nor are they as slender as American Beauty cards; AB's are 1/16th of an inch skinnier, and BL's 1/32nd of an inch skinnier, than normal cards. I think this from that other Broad Leaf thread, personal observation, and the scan above Chris provided. I suggest that a lack of awareness of this odd dimension would be why SGC has graded several as 'Authentic', when in fact they really weren't trimmed.<br /><br />3 - The printing sequence was AB 350 w/o frame, AB 350 w/ frame, Cycle 350, BL 350, Drum 350, AB 460, Cycle 460, BL 460.<br /><br />4 - I speculate that the sequence above ended before Drum 460s would have been issued, hence there are none.<br /><br /><br />I'm just guessing and wondering about these 4 points. Comments?<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>1st....I'm not sure what to make of Chris' efforts and what they tell us. The Lettering on the backs of these four T-brands<br /> were not typeset by American Litho. This lettering was hand sketched by an artist and then transfer onto printing plates.<br /><br />2nd....Sorry buddy, but I have to change the order of sequence of the different T206 backs. Here is how I see it (and why).<br /><br />AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (Frame) Fac. #25 VA....Summer 1910 (re. Scot Reader's T206 book)....Includes 350-only series and<br /> the Six Super-Prints<br /><br />CYCLE 350 Fac. #25 VA......Summer/Fall 1910....350-only series<br /><br />BROAD LEAF 350 Fac. #25 VA....Summer/Fall 1910....350-only series<br /><br />DRUM 350 Fac. #25 VA....Fall 1910....350-only series and 350/460 series<br /><br />AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (No Frame) Fac. #25 VA....Fall 1910....350/460 series<br /><br />CYCLE 460 Fac. #25 VA....Fall/Winter 1910....350/460 series and 460-only series<br /><br />BROAD LEAF 460 Fac. #25 VA....Fall/Winter 1910....350/460 series and 460-only series<br /><br />AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 Fac. #42 NC....Spring 1911....350/460 series and 460-only series (Except the 6 Super-Prints)<br /><br /><br />TED Z<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>You asked...."Now if someone would work on a Drum list of T205s, I'd be eternally grateful!"<br /><br />Have you read Kevin Struss' T205 article in the VCBC (circa mid-1990's) ?<br /><br />Kevin has put together several T205 sets and if I recall correctly, his article might have an<br />answer to your ?<br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Hey Ted,<br /><br />I'm ok with that sequence... wonder why AB went from frame to no frame then back to frame?<br /><br /><br />And what do you think about the width of Broad Leaf cards, might they be 1/32 wider than ABs and 1/32nd narrower than the other cards?

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>AB 460 is Frame-less<br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/bambty460wheat.jpg"><br /><br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>Marc</b><p>Ted,<br />I don't post much but read the board every day. I always especially enjoy your thoughtful and thought provoking research and posts. Regarding back designs, I have always felt that the Piedmont and Tolstoi backs were identical as well. I don't know what, if anything, that adds to this discussion but I think it's interesting to note. I have also noticed the ABCD similarities and feel that your explanation makes a lot of sense. Keep up the great work!<br /><br /><img src="http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u313/marcdelpercio/piedback-1.jpg"><br /><br /><img src="http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u313/marcdelpercio/tolback-1.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>"1st....I'm not sure what to make of Chris' efforts and what they tell us."<br /><br />I'm not really sure either, other than it shows that the frames do match up exactly. I thought that was interesting.

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Excellent observation of the similarity between the PIEDMONT and TOLSTOI artwork.<br /><br />Furthermore, I'm impressed with the darker BLUE color of your Piedmont 460/42 back. I have several of these backs;<br /> and, everyone of them is a very light Blue.<br /><br />I'm curious....who is on the front of this card ?<br /><br />Thanks for your kind words,<br /><br />TED Z<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Chris</b><p>Re: Tolstoi/Piedmont, I did the same with the two images provided. As you can see, the frames are very similar to be sure, but at least on these two examples, do not match perfectly.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.ffcosearch.com/piedtolstoi.gif">

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>OK, if my rule is valid on the "A-B-C-D connection", there should be a DRUM back for my all-time favorite T206 card......the blue Chase ?<br /><br />I have this Chase with 15 of his T206 backs......including AB 350 (Frame), CYCLE 350, and BROAD LEAF 350. So, the Chase/DRUM would<br /> complete the A-B-C-D "homerun".<br /><br />But, so far all the data we have regarding DRUM backs indicates that this Chase card has not been found.<br /><br /> Any help on finding this Chase would be greatly appreciated.<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />TED Z<br /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/chase14brands.jpg"><br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/abchaseepdg.jpg"><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Marc</b><p>Ted,<br />The front of the Piedmont card is Lajoie (with bat). I agree that this example is a darker blue than most others I have seen.<br /><br />On a side note, the scan of the backs that you just posted above made me realize the similarity in frame design of Polar Bear and Old Mill backs. Not identical but close enough to make the case that it was likely the work of the same artist.<br /><br />Also, I have noticed that Cycle backs (especially the 460 series) seem to be much tougher than they are often given credit for. Most rankings I have seen place them in the middle range of scarcity with Tolstoi, EPDG, AB, Old Mill, etc but I have seen and owned far more of all of these backs than Cycles. I don't pay much attention to the population reports but I would go so far as to say that I even see more Hindus than Cycles. This would seem to corroborate your theory that Cycles are most akin to Broadleaf and Drum backs though they are clearly not quite to that level of scarcity.

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Great find on the Lajoie (bat) with the Piedmont 460/42 back....a very rare card, indeed.<br /><br />Your observation on the Frame of the Old Mill and Polar Bear backs is a good one, as these two were available about the same time. <br /><br />The CYCLE 350 cards are tougher than most give them credit for. The CYCLE 460 cards are very tough and I feel that these T206's<br /> are more difficult to find than they are currently ranked.<br /><br />TED Z<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>Ted- goto sleep!<br /><br />just kidding...seriously tho, great research and insights, as always.<br /><br />MS

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Just get in from partying ?<br /><br />Isn't 2 AM is a little early for you......<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Be good,<br />TED

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>actually last night was an early one for me...my night off, if you will...<br /><br /><img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Getting back to you after getting my artist buddy's opinion on the A-B-C-D designs. The lettering on all four of these backs <br />is definitely hand sketched. The BROAD LEAF, CYCLE, and DRUM designs are identical and suggest that they were drawn by<br /> the same artist.<br /><br />The American Beauty differs ever so slightly that it might have been drawn by the same artist, or by another. In any event,<br /> the AB design certainly set the style for the other three. Given the fact that the AB 350 (Frame) cards are more available <br />than either the BL 350, CY 350, or DRUM....it appears to suggest that there was an appreciable lead time for this AB brand.<br /><br />One very surprising fact evident here, is that as scarce as the DRUM cards are.....approx. 80 from the 350-only Series and<br /> 40 (of the possible 56 subjects) in the 350/460 Series....for a total of 120 have been confirmed. And, I think more 350-only<br /> Subjects will eventually be found.<br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>barry arnold</b><p>many thanks for the very helpful information from your artist friend and yourself.<br />the conclusions drawn are very convincing methinks.<br />many thanks for a most illuminative thread, Ted.<br /><br />best,<br /><br />barry

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>I'm reprising the theme of this thread for those of you who clicked onto the "bottom of page" link and have not read it.<br /><br />Also, I have updated the list of T206's that conform to the T206 back Rule that I refer to as the "A-B-C-D connection". <br /><br />The "A-B-C-D connection" is illustrated here with the four tougher T206 backs designed for the 350 Series that have identical<br /> stylized FRAME and lettering. It is probably safe to conclude that the same artist at American Lithographic Co. (ALC) designed<br /> these four backs. The design is exactly the same....just the name of the T-brand differs.<br />These tougher T206 cards were very likely inserted in their respective cigarette packs at the end of the 350 Series run. Scot<br /> Reader's "Inside T206" book identifies the release of American Beauty 350 cards in the Summer of 1910 (quite later than the <br />availability of the Piedmont, Sweet Caporal, and Sovereign 350 cards). The Cycle, Broad Leaf, and Drum cards, I would theor-<br />ize, were available simultaneously with the American Beauty's, or in the Fall of 1910.<br />Therefore, due to this late date, the T206's in particular with Broad Leaf, and Drum backs were very Short-Printed.....as ALC<br />was more involved in producing their last (460) Series of cards to be released at the end of 1910 and early 1911.<br /><br />However, there appears to be an emerging pattern, that all 4 of these backs were printed on certain Subjects. For example:<br />Dineen is found with AB 350, BL 350, Cy 350, and DRUM. If this observation is valid, then it can prove to be very valuable in<br /> predicting the availaility of a DRUM (or a Broad Leaf) back. Incidently, this "rule" is only applicable to Subjects (approx. 200 <br />cards) in the 350-only Series and the six Super-Prints.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/ambtybl350cycledrum.jpg"><br /><br /><br />Here is a list of the 350-only cards that conform to the "A-B-C-D connection"....they cover all four bases.<br />As time goes by more T206's will show up with all four backs.....current total = 48<br /><br />Abstein<br />Arellanes<br />Barbeau<br />Batch<br />Becker<br />Burke<br />Casey<br />Clark<br />Congalton<br />Davidson<br />Delehanty (Louisville)<br />Dineen<br />Donovan (throw)<br />Downs<br />Engle<br />Freeman<br />Hinchman (Toledo)<br />Jackson<br />Ed Killian (portrait)<br />Knabe<br />Krause (pitch)<br />Kroh<br />Lennox<br />Livingstone<br />Maddox<br />Maloney<br />McAleese<br />Milan<br />Mitchell (Toronto)<br />Moran (Chicago)<br />Moran (Providence)<br />Nattress<br />Phillippe<br />Purtell<br />Randall<br />Raymond<br />Rhodes<br />Rudolph<br />Schrim<br />Scott<br />Slagle<br />Speaker<br />Starr<br />Strang<br />Titus<br />Unglaub<br /><br />Here are two of the six Super-Prints (Am Bty 350 with Frame) that conform to the "A-B-C-D connection".......<br /><br />Chance (yellow portrait)<br />Evers (bat-yellow sky)<br /><br /><br />And, I am still looking for a Blue portrait Chase with a DRUM back to complete my "A-B-C-D connection" of this,<br /> my favorite, T206 card. <br /><br /><br />TED Z<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Ted,<br /> I haven't had time to read the entire thread, but I do have the following Drum's that are not on your list:<br /><br />Raymond<br />Schrim<br /><br />PS I'll try to catch up tomorrow. <br /><br /> Be well Brian<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>You hit back-to-back HR's with Raymond ans Schirm....they are part of the "A-B-C-D club". I added them to the list.<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>ty_cobb</b><p>Haven't had much time for participation on the board, as I'm mostly on<br />the baseball diamond with my 8yr old son these days!<br /><br />but some thoughts;<br />Cycle 350 is a July 1910 issue, and whether or not AB's were issued<br />concurrently or slightly before is a given in my mind.<br /><br />most of the A-B-C-D pattern already exists in Bill Heitmans pamphlet<br />'The Monster' and I don't expect to see any variation from that...<br /><br />I'm going to enjoy owning the Broadleaf 350 Bresnahan, and yes <br />'theoretically' there should be a Drum<br /><br />Cheers guys!<br />an interesting post as always Ted!<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Anyone here would like to venture a guess to this question....Why did the T206 designers drop the FRAME design for their add-<br />itional T-brand backs in their last Series....American Beauty 350 & 460, LENOX, UZIT ?<br /><br />And of course, they added the Red HINDU back in the 460 series; but, the HINDU design was a repeat of the 150 series HINDU.<br /><br />My guess is they fired the Frame designer....what's your guess ?<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/array15brandst206.jpg"><br /><br /><br /><br />TED Z<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>My guess is that it was a mistake - the Uzit, AB 460 series and Lenox were all intended to have the same frame design as the AB 350, Cycle, etc but somehow, it got overlooked and the cards rolled off the presses without the frame being added.

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Posted By: <b>David Reis</b><p>Ted,<br /><br />In terms of rarity, how do the frameless AB 350 and 460 cards compare to the versions with the frames? It does seem odd to me that there would be two versions in the same series unless it was a mistake.<br /><br />David R

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I never really noticed my AB 350's had a border and borderless version.....<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1213031112.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>JON<br /><br />It might have been just a simple matter of omission as you suggest.<br /><br />I think it is more complicated than that. The complexity of the Monster suggests that ATC and their "buddies" at ALC<br />appear to have left very little to chance in the design of these 522 cards (Magie & Joe Doyle being the exceptions to<br /> this premise).<br /><br /><br />LEON<br /><br />Where's your CYCLE 350 ?<br /><br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I don't think I even have a Cycle 350 yet. I have never really focused on the T206 backs because of the few that will be impossible to find...the ones that are more difficult than BL460 or Drum. I am sure there will be one in the future..

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>If you are interested in acquiring a CYCLE 350 in the "nearer future"....email me and I'll offer you several to choose from.<br /><br />TED Z<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>The American Beauty 460's are much tougher to find the either of the American Beauty 350's.<br /><br />TED Z<br />

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Also, I can personally tell you how tough the AB 460 cards are. I have been collecting a sub-set of these backs.<br />My homework indicates that there are approx. 75 possible AB 460's....and, so far I am only 1/3 the way there.<br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>David R</b><p>Thanks Ted. Probably explains why I have a bunch of AB 350s (frame and no frame) but no 460s <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> Does the 460 come with a frame?

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Posted By: <b>Darren</b><p><img src="http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm40/drdduet/th_t213r.jpg"><br /><br />I believe this fits right into the ABCD (ABCCD)connection.

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>A T213-1.....a great observation, guy. And, if I recall correctly, these Coupon cards were issued in 1910.<br /> Coinciding with the time the T206 American Beauty-Broad Leaf-Cycle-Drum (A-B-C-D) cards were issued.<br /> So now you've re-named this "connection" as the "A-B-C-C-D" one....very interesting. I have to give this<br /> new discovery some more thought. <br /><br />These T213-1 cards are very tough to find; and, another interesting coincidence is that the T213 cards<br /> are narrow like the AB cards....hmmmm !<br /><br />Here my lone Coupon card, a T213-3 Chase.....<br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/at213chase1.jpg"><br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/achasecoupon.jpg"><br /><br /><br />Thanks for your great input to this subject,<br /><br />TED Z<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Darren</b><p>Compare Coupon type 1 backs to T206 Cycle backs...the borders are exactly the same...down to that "frilly" little design midway on each side.

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>The Frame, the Lettering style, and the 1910 date of this Coupon card are all identical to the A-B-C-D T206's.<br />Also, this early Coupon issue was produced at American Lithographic, so it all jives. If it was not for the blue<br />typography in the captions, we might just consider these Coupon Cigarette cards as a "16th T-brand" sub-set<br />of the T206 set.<br /><br />Once again....thanks for checking this out.<br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>Ted - the 1910 Type 1 Coupons from 1910 didn't have blue lettering on the front - they had brown. <br /><br />Only the Type 2 and 3 Coupon's from 1914/15 and 1919 respectively had blue lettering.<br /><br />Edited to add Type 1 photo:<br /><br /><a href="http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j263/jon_canfield/?action=view&current=t213.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j263/jon_canfield/t213.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

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Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>I think it would be a good idea to explore the 68 subjects that appear in the Coupon Type 1 set and to see if they match up with some other T206 series. I never quite understood why it is always assumed that the Type 1's were not part of the T-206 distribution. In fact, I always thought there is a more evidence that they were part of the T-206 distribution than to not be included.

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>You make a good point. Coupon cigarettes were part of the American Tobacco Trust.<br /> And, as I said previously....the T213-1 cards were produced by American Lithographic.<br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>Ted - I'm with you buddy. I also feel like your points regarding the "scarcity" of the type-1's and their sizing are important. I will freely admit, however, that I am unsure who the subjects in the Type 1's include, the poses, etc. I would like to see if the 68 cards are similar to some other back... for example, if the Type 1's match up with the 150 SC distribution (or any other combination of back and series, etc). I truly feel that if it is explored in more detail, we may be able to come up with very good evidence that Coupon Type 1's should be included in the T-206 set.<br /><br />The fact that there are also Type 2's and 3's does not change my thinking. Type 2's and 3's are different in form. The fronts have blue type as you pointed out and the backs are different (with different framing that does not match any T-206 back design). The type-set is also different, as is the paper stock, etc. Sweet Caporal, Piedmont and AB all went on to produce T205's. Coupon went on to produce Type 2's and 3's (IMO).

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Posted By: <b>Darren</b><p>See Ted's ABCD thread.<br /><br />I've compared T213-1's to T206's in hand. T213-1 is the standard T206 size. T213-1 does have name on front inked in brown. T213-1 does appear to be on a thinner card stock than the standard T206. In my opinion T213-1 is a subset to T206; if anything they are more closely related to T206 than they are to T213-2 & T213-3.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1213138088.JPG"> <br /><br />Now let's see what subjects we have. Post'em if you got'em.<br /><br />Edited to say OOPS! meant to start a new thread for T213-1 images and list.

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Posted By: <b>Darren</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1213138691.JPG"> <br /><br />Here they are (x for drum) side by side.<br /><br />Edited to add....<br />(+)<br />1--same size as standard T206<br />2--same images as T206's<br />3--identical inking for front caption<br />4--identical advertiser frame on reverse<br />5--same overall card design<br />6--same maker<br />7--born in 1910<br />(-)<br />1--thinner card stock<br />2--historically associated with T213-2 and T213-3 (perhaps incorrectly)<br /><br />If one were to analyze some of the other T206 brands (American Beauty, Broadleaf, for example) one would find just as many differences from the "standard" T206.

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>The Subjects of the T213-1's that I am familiar with are from the T206 350 & 350/460 Series.<br />So far, this is coincident with the T206 Subjects associated with A-B-C-D connection.<br /><br />Is this the info that you were asking for ?<br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>Greg B.</b><p>There was a complete T213-I set sold in Mastro within the past 3 years, can't remember the details, but if someone has the catalogue it would give a pretty difinitive list...interesting topic.<br />Greg B.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Dave Hornish</b><p>I wonder if the designation is different for Coupons because they are a Louisiana issue. There always seemed to be a bright line drawn between ATC and Louisana collectors way back in the day.

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Dave,<br /> No line drawn.... ATC owned Coupon before the breakup and Ligget& Myers afterward, but the same manager Mr. Irby was still in charge. In fact Mr. Irby was in charge before ATC bought him out, so nothing really changed much in LA. In fact I believe that much of the Tobacco wars in LA after the breakup between ATC and People's Tobacco contributed to the continuation of the cards being released as premiums. The 2 companies fought hard over LA and sued each other a number of times. Thank God, otherwise we might never have seen the t213's or t216's.... Be well Brian<br /><br /><br />PS Ted, pretty easy to add to your earlier thoughts<br />

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Posted By: <b>Dave Hornish</b><p>Brian, I'm sorry-your post is not specific enough and I'm going to need more detail <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Dave,<br /> I'm sorry... I used to have time to finish my research projects, but now I only have enough info to be dangerous. Be well Brian

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>The following 20 (T206) Subjects from the Southern League (8 teams) are included in the T213-1 set.<br /><br />Bay (Nashville)<br />Bernhard (Nashville)<br />Breitenstein (New Orleans)<br />Carey (Memphis)<br />Cranston (Memphis)<br />Ellam (Nashville)<br />Fritz (New Orleans)<br />Greminger (Montgomery)<br />Hart (Little Rock)<br />Hart (Montgomery)<br />Hickman (Mobile)<br />Jordan (Atlanta)<br />Lentz (Little Rock)....sic..(Sentz)<br />Molesworth (Birmingham)<br />Perdue (Nashville)<br />Persons (Montgomery)<br />Reagan (New Orleans)<br />Rockenfeld (Montgomery)<br />Smith (Atlanta)<br />Thornton (Mobile)<br /><br /><br />TED Z<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>Thanks Ted - that's exactly what I was looking for.

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Posted By: <b>Darren</b><p>Ted,<br /><br />As usual, you deliver the goods.<br /><br />Thanks for sharing!

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Try reading this document regarding the PEOPLE'S TOBACCO CO. of Louisana and it should provide more detail regarding Brian W's post. <br /><br /><a href="http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=246&invol=79" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=246&invol=79</a><br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>The majority of T213-1's (except the 20 - So. Lgers.) are the same Subjects that fit the A-B-C-D pattern of the T206's.<br />I don't think this is a mere coincidence....it was by design.<br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Ted,<br /> Happy Father's Day.... It took you a few more days than I thought...<br /> But you are still the man. Keep searching there's more to the story.<br /><br /> Be well Brian

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>And, a Happy Father's Day to you, too....ole Buddy.<br /><br />I've been tracking this connection for some time now....ever since I became interested in the People's Tobacco Co. (T216) cards;<br /> and, the Louisana connection.<br /><br />You and I should compare our notes.<br /><br />Be good,<br /><br />TED Z<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Ted,<br /> I look forward to it... <br /> Be well Brian<br /><br /><br />PS Who has the time machine this week???? You or me???

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>John Scott emailed me with an interesting point. John feels that the T213-1 cards should really be classified as an "ASSORTED"<br /> brand in the T206 set. As a long time Brooklyn collector, John has all five T213-1 Brooklyn players (Dunn, Hunter, Lennox, Mar-<br />shall and McElveen).<br />Furthermore, he has observed that these same five Subjects in the T206 set are very difficult to find with ASSORTED backs (or<br /> they just don't exist). <br /><br />After some consideration, I think his point regarding the T213-1's makes very good sense......what do you think ?<br /><br />TED Z<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>I've always wondered why carve out the same-front type 1s from T206 and group them with the quite different type 2 and type 3 cards. <br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>While Burdick definitely made a few mistakes (W503, H801-7 etc...) I still feel the T213's are correctly categorized. All 3 series got put in with Coupon Cigarettes and should be in the same category...to me it still makes the most sense. regards

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>T213-1 is a fascinating issue because it seems to straddle two different sets. It's shares a Coupon ad back with the later series 2 and 3, and it conforms to the design of the T206 A-B-C-D backs, making it appear to be a T206. <br /><br />I lean towards it being part of T206, but there is a compelling argument the other way too.

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Your T206 Brooklyn guys....Dunn, Hunter, Lennox, Marshall, and McElveen are only found with one ASSORTED brand....TOLSTOI.<br />I scanned several T206 surveys to determine this.<br /><br />TED Z<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Ted,<br /> Here's a Marshall for you....<br /><br /><img src="http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q257/hogan6g/Scan0018-7.jpg"><br /><img src="http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q257/hogan6g/Scan0019-6.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Show us some more of your DRUM's......we don't often see enough of them.<br /><br />Best regards ole Buddy,<br /><br />TED Z<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Four Frank Delehanty cards illustrating an actual example of the A-B-C-D connection.<br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/delehantyabblcydrum.jpg"><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/abblcydrumbacks.jpg"><br />TED Z<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>One of my several A-B-C combinations waiting for a DRUM to complete the connection.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/abblcygrimshaw.jpg"><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/abblcygrimshawbks.jpg"><br /><br />TED Z<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Another one of my several A-B-C combinations waiting for a DRUM to complete the connection.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/abblcytannehill.jpg"><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/abblcytannehillbks.jpg"><br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>johnny</b><p>TED!!!<br /><br />u noticed the darker color pied fact 42 "dark blue"....they are a variation of the "light" blue!!!!!!....i have been following them ...I THINK I HAVE 2 DARK BLUE PIED 42'S, took me a while to get...i'll check who they are , but they are like 5% of the total, kinda like a "brown" lenox or a a back color variation...in any case, they are pretty tuff!!!<br /><br /><br />johnny

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>That Piedmont 460 Fac. 42 caught my eye instantly. I have never seen one with a dark blue back<br /> like the one that Marc posted on this thread. I have four of these rare backs and they all look like <br />they are "faded" blue.<br /><br />I would be interested in knowing what T206 Subjects are on your dark blue versions.<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />TED Z<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Campbell is one tough T206 with any back, other than a Piedmont 350.<br /><br />Also, note the difference in the sunsets between each of these three cards.<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/abblcycampbell.jpg"><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/abblcycampbellbks.jpg"><br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>J Hull</b><p>Nice Campbells, Ted.<br /> <br />I suspect the amount of red in the sky relates to the strength of the red ink layer on the card. Looks to me like the red in the "C" on his sleeve is much stronger and darker in the first card, which is also the one with more red clouds in the sky.<br /> <br />Jamie

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Ted,<br /> You might add a Drum if you are really lucky, but it's easier to add one of these:<br /><br /><img src="http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q257/hogan6g/Scan0026-3.jpg"><br /><img src="http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q257/hogan6g/Scan0027-4.jpg"><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> Be well Brian<br /><br /><br />PS You have been buying too many rare backs....

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>I once had 8 - CAROLINA BRIGHTS....but, now I have just one. A sharp looking Clymer.<br /><br />I should have kept the others and built a sub-set of them. I acquired them years ago<br /> when they were inexpensive.<br /><br />TED Z<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Hey BRIAN<br /><br />There has to be a DRUM out there on this Blue Chase. The other 5 super-prints all have been<br /> confirmed with DRUM backs.<br /><br />What say you ?<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/abblcychaseblue.jpg"><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/abblcychasebluebks.jpg"><br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>Darren</b><p>Calling Scot Reader, Calling Scot Reader,<br /><br />Scot, I'd like to see an addendum to your T206 synopsis to include the T213-1 issues and speculation that it is really a T206 issue. Regardless, I enjoy your work regularly and have shared it extensively.