T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia

[Rhotchkiss]

Ron -- sounds good. I too will keep my eye out for twins!

Pat -- theoretically, yes. If I come across a no-print, I would like to add it to the collection. However, I have spent enough $$ on this endeavor, and I know the AB 460 will cost a pretty penny, so my interest in the no-print is somewhat directly connected to the price tag; although, I do have mucho to trade.

[Sean]

Ryan, I love that Uzit. It's only a matter of time until you get that AB 460.

[greco827]

Ted, and/or anyone who knows ...

In regards to the Elite 11, I have read through the threads and the posted thread from 2006-2007, but I was hoping you could help me understand a few things and educate me.

- What factors led to the exclusion of Conroy and Pastorius from the ranks of the Elite 11? Was it a matter of regionality? (Is that a word?)
I may have answered my own question on this. Both of these two cards also have SC350 confirmed backs, which I assume is the reason for their exclusion.

- If they are not part of the Elite 11, what is the thoughts/theories on why they are scarce in the typically common P350 set? Pastorius was released in Aug 1909, which could explain his short run as part of the 350 series, but Conroy remained with Wash. through 1911, and his variation (With Bat) wasn't produced until PG3, which was late 1910.

- What factors led to the inclusion of Schaefer, Spencer, and Shaw?

- With the EPDG backs being found at a much higher rate than the P350's, is it possible that EPDG back run started later in the 150 series, prior to the the 350 series starting up? It would make sense that these players would be more common with an EPDG back if that were the case.



I'm sorry if this has been addressed, I've attempted to absorb a large amount of T206 information over the past few weeks! :D

[tedzan]

Ted, and/or anyone who knows ...

In regards to the Elite 11, I have read through the threads and the posted thread from 2006-2007, but I was hoping you could help me understand a few things and educate me.

- What factors led to the exclusion of Conroy and Pastorius from the ranks of the Elite 11? Was it a matter of regionality? (Is that a word?)
- If they are not part of the Elite 11, what is the thoughts/theories on why they are scarce in the typically common P350 set?
- What factors led to the inclusion of Schaefer, Spencer, and Shaw?

I'm sorry if this has been addressed, I've attempted to absorb a large amount of T206 information over the past few weeks! :D

#1....The only 350 series backs that the Elite 11 were printed with are PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG.

Conroy and Pastorius were printed with PIEDMONT 350, EPDG, and, SWEET CAP #25 & #30.


#2.... " What factors led to the inclusion of Schaefer, Spencer, and Shaw ? "

In recent years, Scot Reader's vast T206 survey indicated that Schaefer, Spencer, and Shaw are also part of the Elite 11 group.


TED Z
.

[greco827]

Thanks Ted. I came across the Elite 12 thread from last year after posting my original questions and updated my post. You're knowledge, and willingness to share, is greatly appreciated!

[Luke]

That's an incredible back run Ryan! Nice work. An AB460 will turn up someday. That Tinker Uzit and Ted's McGraw Uzit being on the same page is almost too much eye candy!

Good questions Jason. Ted pretty much answered already, but I'd add that Pastorius and Conroy fielding were both also printed with Old Mill backs. I hadn't noticed that those two were tough with Piedmont 350 backs. If they are, that adds an interesting wrinkle to the puzzle.

I think you're on the right track with the idea that EPDG backs were printed at the end of the 150 portion of the 150-350 Series. But, there's no consensus as of yet. There are some recent threads where we've been debating it on here. Pat R has done some great research on the topic recently.

[greco827]

Good questions Jason. Ted pretty much answered already, but I'd add that Pastorius and Conroy fielding were both also printed with Old Mill backs. I hadn't noticed that those two were tough with Piedmont 350 backs. If they are, that adds an interesting wrinkle to the puzzle.



Thanks Luke. I'm trying to pose intelligent questions, most of which I'm sure have been answered or at leased inquired about at some time or another, but I'm still in the very early phases of learning.

In regards to the Pastorius and Conroy, I focused on them because of their initial inclusion in the Elite 11, back in 2006. Though they have since been excluded for reasons already covered, they are much harder to find in Piedmont 350 than 150 series. Based on the limited number graded by PSA which denote the factory, 39 150's have been graded, but only two 350's. 19.5:1 ratio is pretty high. Again, small sample size, but telling. With Conroy, it's a ratio of almost 8:1, with 37 150's and only four 350's.

Pastorius can be explained away by his August release, but the reason the Conroy may be harder to find seems less obvious.

[greco827]

Interestingly, Neither Pastorius nor Conroy have a confimed graded example, at least not from PSA, SGC, or BVG, of an EPDG card for either of these players. t206 resource does list the Pastorius/EPDG as confirmed and the Conroy as possible, but I find this to be noteworthy.

SGC does have a single EPDG Conroy, which is not specified as Fielding or With Bat, and could possibly be the Fielding version, but I find that doubtful. They do both have PSA graded examples of both Old Mill and Sovereign 150 however.

Lots of interesting wrinkles, as this actually contradicts the thought that EPDG was printed earlier than Piedmont 350.

Maybe someone here has EPDG cards of these two they can share?

[tedzan]

Hey Ryan

Fantastic display of your Tinker run. Thanks for sharing it with us.

I've been searching for his AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 card for many years to complete my AB 460 run (74 cards).
So when the next one shows up there be at least 4 of us contending for it. It should be very interesting.

I enjoyed talking with you at the Philly Show last month.


TED Z
.

[Luke]

Interestingly, Neither Pastorius nor Conroy have a confimed graded example, at least not from PSA, SGC, or BVG, of an EPDG card for either of these players. t206 resource does list the Pastorius/EPDG as confirmed and the Conroy as possible, but I find this to be noteworthy.

SGC does have a single EPDG Conroy, which is not specified as Fielding or With Bat, and could possibly be the Fielding version, but I find that doubtful. They do both have PSA graded examples of both Old Mill and Sovereign 150 however.

Lots of interesting wrinkles, as this actually contradicts the thought that EPDG was printed earlier than Piedmont 350.

Maybe someone here has EPDG cards of these two they can share?

I don't think those two being left off the EPDG print run contradicts anything. Plenty of poses were not printed with EPDG and then later printed with all the other 350 series backs. If they were left off EPDG print runs and then pulled early from P350 production, I think that would just be a coincidence.

[Rhotchkiss]

Thanks Ted, and great meeting you too! Yes, it appears that tinker AB is quite a hot commodity!

[tedzan]

Hey guys,

Tougher than the T206 AB 460 card of Tinker (bat off shoulder) is his T215-1 card.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206EddiePlankSC150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/MattyWCxSweetCap11xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChanceDahlenWaddellCYoung12x.jpg
........... Two Pennsylvanians ........



I have a few cards which are missing one of the ink passes in the 6-color process of the T206 cards. I know of numerous T206 color error cards, so if you have some
post them here.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/acobb8.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206orangeCobbPinlWillis.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Sovereign150Willis.jpg




The rightmost Lundgren card is missing the Blue ink pass. This is a very rare occurrence with T206's....since the Blue ink was an intervening application in the 6-color
printing process.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/alundgren4versions.jpg

. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/blundgren4versions.jpg



TED Z
.

[Roulette44]

Have really enjoyed reading all the great posts in this thread, and a huge kudos to TedZ for all you do to keep the eye candy and knowledge flowing (equally fun from this collector's perspective).

I collected cards (and comics) as a kid but never reached the echelon of T-cards. I quit and sold them when I was 18, wanting money for college-related fun (what a stupid move!). Anyhow, fast forward 15 years and I got back into comic books agressively. Put together the #1 registry set for Superman #1-423, among some other prized possessions. Then, more recently, I caught the card bug again and went straight to the T-206 set as I always wanted any and every card from the set, but especially the Toronto players (hometown as a kid)

And here we are today, where my quest continues....have a set of 522 but working on a fully PSA graded set in 4+. I think I'm 27th or 28th on the registry, but still filling in some holes, too. I know that the registry is not everyone's bag, I just enjoy the hunt and competition, I suppose. I am dumbfounded by the registry's top set, with an average grade of 8....pretty darn close to the highest grade extant on every card!

My goal is to ultimately upgrade to a set of PSA 6-7 (but will probably remain a set of 522....we'll see).

The variety of T206 is wonderful. The different leagues and from two countries, the backs, the poses, and so many epic players who have legacies that will withstand the test of time!

I know this is a lame post without pictures ("PICS OR IT DIDNT HAPPEN!") but I promise I'm working on them! Trying to create some group shots of the set, and might have to start posting while holes still remain in the set. But I also don't want to use up too much bandwidth on this tremendous thread with multiples, so I figured better to wait!

Finally, to all our veterans - Thank you for your service!

Please keep all the information coming!

Best
Joey

[Sean]

294531

294532

294533

294534

294535

Ted, I have a bunch of these missing color cards, mostly missing red. Too many to post all of them. I also threw in a scrap, which isn't really the same.

[Sean]

Here's a Baker missing most of the blue pass, and of course the Plank is missing the dark blue.


294537


294536

[Sean]

Ted, about that Willis of yours that is missing color:what is the back? Mine is a Hindu, and they frequently seem to be much lighter.

[tedzan]

Hi Joey

I really appreciate your complimentary words. I've learned a lot these past 40 years completing sets.....1887 Allen & Ginter > 1987 TOPPS (multiple sets of many of the major sets).
I believe in sharing information which I have gleaned from extensive research in such sets as the 1888 N162, the T205 & T206, the 1933 Goudey, the 1941 Play Ball, the 1949 Leaf,
and the 1948-1953 Bowman (BB & FB) sets. Oh, and I cannot forget 1952 Topps.

And, this forum is a great stage for the exchange of meaningful info regarding all aspects of this hobby.


Thanks again,

TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Ted, about that Willis of yours that is missing color:what is the back? Mine is a Hindu, and they frequently seem to be much lighter.

Hi Sean

I'm familiar with the Red > Orange / brown HINDU phenomena. I've had some of these color error T206's in the past.

Anyhow, my color error Willis is a PIEDMONT 150 card. The normal Willis is a SOVEREIGN 150.


Thanks for posting your color errors.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/acobb8.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206orangeCobbPinlWillis.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Sovereign150Willis.jpg
.................................................. .................................................. .................................. PIEDMONT 150 .................................. SOVEREIGN 150


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Another T206 color error.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/WrightPolarBearSovereign350x.jpg
...................... POLAR BEAR .......................................... SOVEREIGN 350


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Here's a color printing error not seen too often.

Hey guys,
How's about showing off some of your unusual T206's ?


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206AdkinsOrangeYellow50.jpg
..................... PIEDMONT 350 ......................................... PIEDMONT 350


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

A few more color printing errors......
http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/beckleydevlinklingpink.jpg



TED Z
.

[steve B]

Missing colors can be tough sometimes.

Beck is missing two colors, Huggins isn't, but is from a group I don't see often that always has the player looking very pale. Downey and Lobert are both faded.
http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=18319

Meyers with a really odd but factory cut. The result of either debris in the stack of cards being cut, or a sheet somewhere below it in the stack being folded over.
http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=7029

And a weird handcut but I don't think trimmed card. There must have been more in the group, but I didn't know enough at the time to find and buy them.
http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=1877

[slipk1068]

Missing yellow?

[Sean]

Nice pink Bradley. :)

[tedzan]

Hi David S.

Here is a Huggins printing error that is very similar to your Bradley card......

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/HugginsPiedmontSovereign50x.jpg


TED Z
.

[Luke]

Steve,

Do you think this Clarke is factory-cut? I've always thought it might be. The image came out smaller than I expected, but if you save it and look at in Paint, it's big enough to get a good look at. The top and bottom both have the same notch. Kind of like your Myers above.

[Leon]

Missing colors can be tough sometimes.

Beck is missing two colors, Huggins isn't, but is from a group I don't see often that always has the player looking very pale. Downey and Lobert are both faded.
http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=18319

Meyers with a really odd but factory cut. The result of either debris in the stack of cards being cut, or a sheet somewhere below it in the stack being folded over.
http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=7029

And a weird handcut but I don't think trimmed card. There must have been more in the group, but I didn't know enough at the time to find and buy them.
http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=1877
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1910-T206-Bill-Hart-SGC-Authenticated-Piedmont/182853341021?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


That Ewing card is what a trim would look like if I did it.:eek: I too think it's a hand cut and not a "trim"..

[tedzan]

Orange (instead of Red) 150-Series Chance (portrait) cards are often found with brown HINDU backs.
This one is a PIEDMONT card.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChanceOrangePiedmont150.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChanceRedSovereign150.jpg
............ PIEDMONT 150 ......................... SOVEREIGN 150



TED Z
.

[Charger74]

You mention a Group B in Post 181, are these the only 28 with this back or are there others, in another group. Thanks in advance for your answer.

[tedzan]

You mention a Group B in Post 181, are these the only 28 with this back or are there others, in another group. Thanks in advance for your answer.


Hi

The 350/460 series comprises of 63 subjects. Towards the end of the T206 production (circa..early 1911), American Lithographic divided these cards into the 2 print groups (which I've
designated as Group A and Group B)......



Group A

.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AmesKonet21cards25xx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/MageeYoung14cards14x.jpg

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Group B
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BergMann14cards13x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McQuiWiltse14cards13x.jpg


All 63 of these cards were printed with the SWEET CAP, Factory #30 backs. But, they were NEVER issued to Factory #30 in New York to be inserted into cigarette packs. Instead,
they were stamped with Factory #42 overprints and shipped to the Liggett & Myers plant in Durham, NC. This change was done by ATC in anticipation of their divestiture in 1911.

Apparently, a recent find of a sheet (or several sheets) containing these 28 subjects (Group B) was discovered and (unfortunately) it was cut into individual cards.

Some years ago, a "scrap" sheet containing the 35 subjects in Group A was discovered with SWEET CAP, Factory #30 backs. Unfortunately, it was cut into individual cards.


This "proof" card of Johnson is an example of the 35 cards that were on the Group A sheet......


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206Johnson350x460Fac30x.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206Johnson350x460Fac30bx.jpg



Also, check-out Posts #4, 5, and 8 in this thread for more info regarding the 350/460 series cards.



TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AB350JohnsonCrawfdBaker12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChaseRedHINDUx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AB460JenningsSGC60x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CobbBatSovereign350x13.jpg


Back in 1980, when Bill Heitman published his famous book "the Monster", red HINDU cards very virtually unknown. The red HINDU back is not mentioned in "The Monster".
My understanding is that only a half a dozen of these very rare cards were known back in the 1970's, and T206 collectors did not really know what to make of them.

Since then, red HINDU cards have "trickled out of the woodwork". In recent years, a find of 13 red HINDU cards occurred in Texas. Ten of these 13 cards are subjects in the
460-only series Exclusive 12 group. The red HINDU's in the 350/460 series are considerably more difficult to find than the Exclusive 12 guys with red HINDU.

For you rare back collectors here are factors (rules) to keep in mind when you are chasing after certain T206 front/back combos......

In the 350/460 series......the red HINDU cards are "matched pairs" with the BROAD LEAF 460 cards (printed circa..late 1910).

Furthermore, T206's with these backs are mutually-exclusive with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 and UZIT cards (printed early 1911).

This hypothesis was first presented on this forum in April 2010 in this fascinating thread.... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=122474&page=2

This mutually-exclusive factor is the result of American Lithographic dividing the 63 subjects in the 350/460 series into 2 print groups (at the end of their T206 production.
Circa..late 1910 > early 1911. I have designated these 2 print groups as Group A and Group B. The red HINDU's and BROAD LEAF 460 backs were printed on these subjects
in Group A.

Group A
.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AmesKonet21cards25xx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/MageeYoung14cards14x.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/rh.jpg

Checklist…...total = 44

To date, 32 subjects have been confirmed with the red HINDU back in the 350/460 series.

Baker
Bender (no trees)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)

Magee (bat)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Murphy (batting)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Street (fielding)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing)
CYoung (glove)

The following 3 subjects have yet to be confirmed with the red HINDU back. I expect all three will eventually be found.

Ames (hands above head)
Mathewson (dark cap)
Reulbach (no glove)


460-only series......Exclusive 12

These 12 confirmed subjects are the only red HINDU cards in the 460-only series. Furthermore, these 12
are definitely more available with the red HINDU back than the above listed subjects in the 350/460 series.
.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1stEx12gpSC460x42x25x.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/2ndEx12gpSC460x42x25x.jpg

Crandall (cap)
Devore
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Hummel
McGraw (glove at hip)
Pfeffer
Sheckard (glove)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Wheat



Red HINDU is one of my favorite T206 backs. Currently, I have 14 of them. Here's a sampling of HINDU's in my collection.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/ChaseRedHINDUx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/ChaseRedHINDUx50b.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/CrandallTannehillRedHINDUx50.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/CrandallTannehillRedHINDUx50b.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/Ex12DuffyRHx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/Ex12DuffyRHx50b.jpg



My first red HINDU (acquired in the 1980's)

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/MikeDonlinRedHINDUx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/DonlinRedHINDUx50.jpg



Hey guys...... how's about posting some of your red HINDU cards here....let's see how many different cards we can come up with ?



TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[Sean]

Ted, here's a quote from Heitman:

Most Hindu backs are printed in brown and according to the theory contain only fronts which were issued with the Series 150 cards. However, recently at least six Hindu backs with a distinct red rather than brown back printing have been found. All six fronts correspond to player poses issued only in the 460 series. Unfortunately, not enough is known about this apparent anomaly to theorize about the Hindu red printed backs."

So Heitman was aware of them, but had only the most basic information about them. I'll try to post a scan of my only RH in a couple days.

[tedzan]

1st Issue (Nov-Dec 1962)

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1962SPORTHOBBYIST.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1962SPORTHOBBYISTpage8FN.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/BillHeitmanTheMonsterBook.jpg


Hi Sean

I mixed up my information. Frank Nagy, who was one of the first collectors to publish a checklist the T206 set in the Sport Hobbyist,
made no mention of the red HINDU back.

Bill Heitman told me that only half a dozen red HINDU cards were known back in the 1970's.

Sorry, about the mix-up.

Anyway, don't you find it very strange that red HINDU's were virtually unknown 50-60 years after they were printed and issued ?



TED Z
.

[Sean]

1st Issue (Nov-Dec 1962)

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1962SPORTHOBBYIST.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1962SPORTHOBBYISTpage8FN.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/BillHeitmanTheMonsterBook.jpg




Anyway, don't you find it very strange that red HINDU's were virtually unknown 50-60 years after they were printed and issued ?



TED Z
.
As a matter of fact, I find it very surprising. I can understand why a Piedmont Fact 42 or Doyle variation could go unnoticed, but the Hindu Red should stand out from the Hindu Browns. And while rare, there were still plenty of them around, especially the exclusive twelve , which are easy to find with a RH back.

Cobb backs were incredibly rare, and even the MAGIE is relatively rare and easy to miss, yet they were known. How could no one ever see a Red Hindu and say Hey, this back is different? :confused:

[Sean]

By the way, I love that Donlin. I sometimes think about doing a Donlin back run. He's my favorite player from that era... a stereotypical drunk Irishman who could really hit. :D

[tedzan]

By the way, I love that Donlin. I sometimes think about doing a Donlin back run. He's my favorite player from that era... a stereotypical drunk Irishman who could really hit. :D


Hey Sean

You forgot to add acting to "Turkey" Mike's resume. His desire to perform on a stage (or in the movies) prevented him
from being in the BB Hall of Fame (.333 lifetime BA). Any, given week when the TCM channel is featuring Silent Movies
you most likely will see Donlin in the cast. The most notable movie he is in is "The Great Train Robbery" (a classic).

I have a head-start on you.....here are some of my Donlin cards. I have some more somewhere.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/DonlinBatPiedmont42x25.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/DonlinCycle460x25.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/DonlinCycle460x25bx.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/DonlinT213Fact8ovpt50x.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/DonlinT213Fact8ovpt50xb.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/adonlincoupsovrhp460sc42pb.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/bdonlincoupsovrhp460sc42pb.jpg


TED Z
.

[Sean]

Great Donlins Ted. Don't you also have a Red Cross or Victory somewhere?

[Sean]

And you and Pete each have a Factory 8 overprint as well. :cool: Excellent.

[Sean]

I finally got around to scanning my Red Hindu. This is my only RH; it's part of my Cubs set.


296918 296919

[tedzan]

I finally got around to scanning my Red Hindu. This is my only RH; it's part of my Cubs set.


296918 296919

Hey Sean

Your red HINDU Chance would fit perfectly in my Chance run. Currently, I have approx. 14 different backs with this Chance (yellow portrait).
Perhaps we can work out a trade.

Anyhow, continuing from my last post, here's a show of the red HINDU cards of my Exclusive 12 guys.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/WheatRedHINDUx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/WheatRedHINDUx50b.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/Ex12GandilRHx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/Ex12GandilRHx50b.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/DevoreHindu25bx.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/DevoreHinduSovereign25x.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/Ex12FordRHx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/Ex12FordRHx50b.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/RedHinduHummel50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/RedHinduHummel50b.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/GeyerRedHINDUx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/GeyerRedHINDUx50b.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/Ex12PfefferRHx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/Ex12PfefferRHx50b.jpg



TED Z
.

[greco827]

I finally got around to scanning my Red Hindu. This is my only RH; it's part of my Cubs set.


296918 296919

May sound odd, but that's a really solid PSA 1!!!

[tedzan]

Whoops....I forgot my beat-up McGraw. If anyone on this forum has a Vg to Ex red HINDU McGraw (for sale or trade) please contact me......
tedzan11@comcast.net


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/Ex12McGrawRHx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/Ex12McGrawRHx50b.jpg


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Some years ago, I observed that the rare red HINDU cards were more available with the Exclusive 12 subjects. To prove this point,
I began to acquire Exclusive 12 red HINDU cards starting October 2013. Within 2 months, I had 11 of them with red HINDU backs.
I still needed Sheckard (glove) to complete this run of 12.
Well, this elusive card took me 17 months to finally complete (April 2015) this sub-set.



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/Ex12SheckardRHx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/Ex12SheckardRHx50b.jpg


TED Z
T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[obcbeatle]

OK ... I'll bite :) I think I've asked this before in another thread ... but no one seemed to know at the time.

Is there any reference to how the T206 cards were were packaged and shipped to the different factories from the ALC? For instance ... were the sheets put in cardboard boxes, loaded on a train and then sent to each of the different factories in NY, Virginia, Ohio, etc? I'm trying to imagine a train load of T-206's passing through the Virginia country-side on their way to a Piedmont factory :)

[obcbeatle]

OK ... I'll bite :) I think I've asked this before in another thread ... but no one seemed to know at the time.

Is there any reference to how the T206 cards were were packaged and shipped to the different factories from the ALC? For instance ... were the sheets put in cardboard boxes, loaded on a train and then sent to each of the different factories in NY, Virginia, Ohio, etc? I'm trying to imagine a train load of T-206's passing through the Virginia country-side on their way to a Piedmont factory :)

Actually ... after re-reading my post from last night ... I got to realizing that the T206 cards were cut by the ALC ... correct? That is ... the ALC printed the fronts ... the ALC printed the various factory backs ... and then the ALC cut the sheets ... yes? Then the T206's were probably sent to all the different factories via rail. And then who knows how they got to the factories after reaching the rail station (car, horse/carriage, trolley ...?). Just curious. But not sure anyone else is :) Thanks!

[tedzan]

Actually ... after re-reading my post from last night ... I got to realizing that the T206 cards were cut by the ALC ... correct? That is ... the ALC printed the fronts ... the ALC printed the various factory backs ... and then the ALC cut the sheets ... yes? Then the T206's were probably sent to all the different factories via rail. And then who knows how they got to the factories after reaching the rail station (car, horse/carriage, trolley ...?). Just curious. But not sure anyone else is :) Thanks!

Hi Jerry
You got it right....these gems we love so much were designed, printed, cut into 1 7/16 by 2 5/8 inch rectangles in this building in downtown New York City.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpg

......and then sent by rail to the various Tobacco Factory's. Most (if not all) of these factory's had railroad lines adjacent to them.



TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[obcbeatle]

Thanks for the clarification Ted. Not sure why I'm so interested in the logistics ... but I have been reading an online newspaper from 1908 (NY Tribune) and it has peaked my interest in what everyday life was like during the Deadball Era. This all started when I began collecting "T" cards ... and then re-playing the 1908 NY Giants season via Strat-O-Matic baseball. There sure were a lot of suicides and traffic fatalities in 1908. Apparently it was a pretty brutal time period to live in. At least in NY City.

Anyway ... whenever I hold a raw T206 in my hand I often wonder where all that card has traveled during its life. Kind of strange I know. But the history of these little pieces of cardboard ... and the players they depict I find fascinating :) Thanks for the reply. And Merry Christmas to all!

[tedzan]

MERRY CHRISTMAS



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/redHINDUbk25xa.jpg..http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/AB350davyjones50xab.jpg



And, HAPPY HOLIDAYS to all of you Net54er's



TED Z
.

[Sean]

Happy Holidays to all...

299885

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206EddiePlankSC150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Sovereign460CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/amattyab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AB350JohnsonCrawfdBaker12x.jpg



Post #1......Introduction....starting with Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, Inside T206 (http://www.oldcardboard.com/t/t206/insidet206-centennial-edition.pdf)
An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series.

Plus, an early and very significant T206 thread was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=81906&highlight=epdg)
Lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's in this thread exploring various aspects of the T206 series (including surveys). Resulting in 363 meaningful posts.

In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start
in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=82317&highlight=super+set)

Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle
"error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=87180)


Click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted


Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)

Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816) (apple green cards)

Post #5......350/460 series backs identified (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)

Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)

Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=1)

Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=1)

Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=1)

Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=1)

Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=1)

Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=1)

Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=1)

Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=1)

Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=1)

Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=2)

Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=2)

Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=2)

Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=2)

Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's ! (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=2)

Post #93.....T206 "Proofs" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=2)

Post #96.....UZIT checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=2)

Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=2)

Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)

Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=13)

Posts #128 - 131..Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=5)

Posts #231 >> 234.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=5)

Posts #242 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=5)

Post #262.....T206 Southern League cards (re-visited) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=6)

Posts #263 >> 270.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=6)

Posts #271 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=6)

Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=6)

Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=7)

Posts #328 >> 330.....T206 150-only subjects...... (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=7)


In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors.
However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s).


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

I acquired a Magie card for my first T206 set many years ago. It was before the grading "craze" started.
I graded this Magie fairly as a Vg-Ex card. It cost me only $600 back then. Eventually I sold it to a good
friend. Then, when I started working on my all-PIEDMONT T206 set, I acquired this Magie......

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206MagieSGC10.jpg





The Magie card is only found with the PIEDMONT 150 back. American Lithographic caught this error quite early in their press
runs.Typically, their 150 series press runs printed the PIEDMONT backs first (on the pre-printed sheets of the fronts).

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/CYoungPiedmont150b.jpg



So, let's see how many how many Magie cards we can display here ?

Show-n-tell us about your Magie cards.


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[Rhotchkiss]

Fun thread Ted. Happy New Year.

Here is my Magie (sorry it's sideways, doing this off phone waiting for kid's wrestling practice to end). No magic story to this one- when I got back into collecting about 3 years ago, I went right for the t206s. First I bought a high-grade cy young with glove (my favorite), and this was my second purchase - just bc its iconic. I still think it's undergraded (a PSA 3) but what's in a grade?

[Pat R]

Here ya go Ryan nice Magie.
301870

[Sean]

Fun thread Ted. Happy New Year.

Here is my Magie (sorry it's sideways, doing this off phone waiting for kid's wrestling practice to end). No magic story to this one- when I got back into collecting about 3 years ago, I went right for the t206s. First I bought a high-grade cy young with glove (my favorite), and this was my second purchase - just bc its iconic. I still think it's undergraded (a PSA 3) but what's in a grade?

It is a nice Magie, but I have to add that the Cy Young glove card is one of my least favorites. But to each his own.

Here's my Magie, purchased in 2003, about a year after I began the set:

301873

[Rhotchkiss]

Thanks Pat, for straightening me out. Sean, I think the cy young with glove is one of the ugliest cards around - I think he looks like a bloated bum with a big round head. And, I think that's I why I love it so much (that and it was the first big t206 I owned as a kid).

[rats60]

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4364/36095079484_175f2af050.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/WZAHAC)

[Sean]

Thanks Pat, for straightening me out. Sean, I think the cy young with glove is one of the ugliest cards around - I think he looks like a bloated bum with a big round head. And, I think that's I why I love it so much (that and it was the first big t206 I owned as a kid).

Hey Ted, not to derail your thread, but maybe in the future we could all post our five favorite T206 cards. :)

[njdunkin1]

Yowzas. Beautiful cards and Magies, gentlemen!


What's the going rate for an entry level one nowadays? 5k?

[Sean]

Yowzas. Beautiful cards and Magies, gentlemen!


What's the going rate for an entry level one nowadays? 5k?

I think that it's about $7-8K for a decent PSA 1.

[tennisguy]

I think that it's about $7-8K for a decent PSA 1.

I agree with Sean. 6K lower conditioned Magie/8K better conditioned SGC 10-PSA 1. I love the Magie error, such an iconic card! I think without a doubt this card will continue to appreciate in value regardless of condition.

[Roulette44]

301930

[tedzan]

Some nice MAGIE's, guys. Thanks for posting them here.

Here's another Sherry Magee error card of a different type for you....this time it's a picture problem (uncorrected).

The 1910 NADJA Caramels (E104) card of Bris Lord actually portrays Magee.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/E104brislord1910WC.jpg


TED Z
.

[Rhotchkiss]

Ted, interesting that His hair part is on the other side from the t206 pic.

[tedzan]

Hey Ryan

Which Magee image is correct ?

Is the 1910 NADJA the reverse of the T206 image....or vice-versa ? ?


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/E104brislord1910WC.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206MageePiedmont150.jpg


TED Z
.

[Rhotchkiss]

I think they both are correct. Each uniform had a different hair style to fit the clothes. I definately like the A uniform better than the P, so if I had to choose, I take the 1910 hairdo

[tedzan]

I will start this show with my 6 sentimental favorites (displayed in order of when I acquired them)......


My first T206, which I acquired at the Willow Grove Show in 1981.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1stT206Chaseblue50x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1stT206Chaseblue50xb.jpg





FYI....the majority of the Piedmont 150 green Cobb's are offset (top-to-bottom) as this card is.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206greenCobbPiedmont150.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/CobbGreenPiedmont150b.jpg





http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/CobbBatOffAB460x50.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/AB460JenningsHand50xbx.jpg




http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206EddiePlankSC150x30.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206PlankSC150x30xb.jpg





This McGraw / UZIT card is unique (if anyone else on this forum knows of another one, please respond).

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/McGrawGloveUZITxSGC30x.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McGrawGloveUZITxb.jpg




http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/ChaseRedHINDUx25.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/rh.jpg


TED Z
.

[iowadoc77]

Yes, please, if someone else knows of another Uzit McGraw, please sell it to me! I would really appreciate it. Great stuff Ted.

[tedzan]

Hi Eric

I'm regularly searching for another McGraw with a UZIT back. If I find one before you do, I will immediately contact you.


TED Z
.

[iowadoc77]

Hi Eric

I'm regularly searching for another McGraw with a UZIT back. If I find one before you do, I will immediately contact you.


TED Z
.

Much appreciated Ted. And a spare Plank would be great as well!

[tedzan]

I must add my Walter Johnson to this mix. This picture is absolutely the best looking image in the entire T206 set.
It's certainly my most favorite T206 card.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/T206JohsonSGC40.jpg



Hey guys......how's about posting some of your favorite T206's here.


TED Z
.

[Sean]

Ted, here is my favorite card from the entire set. It's a good representation of Cobb, and I like the colors:

302263

[Sean]

A couple of other favorites are of course the Walter Johnson portrait, the nicest portrait in the set, and the Matty Black Cap. The Mathewson looks so well done that it could almost pass for a photograph.


302264

302265

[Sean]

My favorite front/back combo is the Merkle Brown Lenox. It's a 1 of 1, and I mean to keep it until I die.


302266

302267

[Sean]

And finally there's Mitchell:

302268


This one needs an explanation. I began collecting cards in 1965, when I was eight. Of that first set, my favorite card was Yastrzemski. I love the pose. Of course I know now that it was staged, but at the time I really thought that they had photographed him in the act of catching a fly ball.

The Mitchell card reminds me so much of my first favorite card that it has become a favorite as well:

[Sean]

Here's the two cards for comparison:


302269

[tedzan]

Hey Sean

Some nice cards, thanks for posting them.



OK, here's another unique T206 card, which until recently was in my collection. Now, it is in David Hall's master set.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/UZITHerzogSGC45.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/herzogUZITx50b.jpg


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE......Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Bk150PdSovSC25SC30Hindu12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpg
Only these five T-brands were printed on the backs of the 150-only T206's

American Lithographic initially printed 12 subjects which were the first T206's (issued circa Spring 1909). Depicted here are these 12 guys......



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Piedmont150AmesMBroGBroBurchDonlin.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Piedmont150LDoylEversPattPeltyReul.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206WagnerRpt15x.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206EddiePlankSC150x30.jpg





TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE......Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Bk150PdSovSC25SC30Hindu12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpg
Only these five T-brands were printed on the backs of the 150-only T206's


Contrary to the conventional thinking, it's my opinion that Mike Powers should not be considered a 150-only T206 subject. American Lithographic actually
printed Powers battery mate, Eddie Plank, with this 1st series of 12 cards. This we know for certain, since a partial sheet of Piedmont 150 cards were dis-
covered in Eastern Long Island (NY) in the mid 1980's.
Included on this sheet were Eddie Plank and Honus Wagner (subsequently referred to as the Gretzky Wagner). For more info on this, check-out this 2009 thread....http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=111871

Since the 1970's, several theory's (such as the "broken printing plates" myth, etc.) have been proposed to explain the "short-printing" of the Plank card.
Well, my take on this mystery is very simple....having read Connie Mack's ** response to a Philadelphia sports writer (circa 1910) regarding Plank........

"The secret of Plank's pitching is no secret at all. It is a good strong arm, a powerful constitution to back it, and neither drinks, smokes,
chews tobacco, nor swears...."

My guess is Eddie Plank informed the American Tobacco Co. (ATC) that he did not want his image portrayed on Tobacco cards. And, being the low-keyed
guy that he was, Plank did not "hype-up" his anti-tobacco stance (as Wagner did). Most likely, a brief "cease and desist" order was issued to ATC.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206EddiePlankSC150x30.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206PlankSC150x30xb.jpg


Furthermore, why ATC continued issuing the Plank card with a SWEET CAPORAL 350, Factory #30 back for a short period of time is anyone's guess. ?
I have some thoughts regarding this; however, I'm curious what your's may be ? ?

The majority of T206 Plank cards in circulation are the SWEET CAPORAL 350, Factory #30 versions. And, it is interesting to note that the colors of the
majority of these particular Plank cards are quite pale in comparison with the rich-looking colors of the PIEDMONT 150 or SWEET CAPORAL 150 cards.


Footnote **
"Connie Mack" (Biography), by Norman Macht


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE......Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Bk150PdSovSC25SC30Hindu12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpg
Only these five T-brands were printed on the backs of the 150-only T206's


Mike Powers was the preferred battery mate of Eddie Plank. Unfortunately, on Opening Day of Shibe Park (April 12 1909) in Philadelphia, Mike Powers was
injured on the field. In the hospital, the doctors discovered he had serious intestinal system problems. Mike passed away 2 weeks later (re....Net54 thread
posted 2008).


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/1909OpeningDayShibe25.jpg


My theory regarding the Mike Powers card is....he was subsequently printed in press runs which included 33 other subjects. This appears evident, as the
backs of these 34 subjects were also overprinted with the SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #649 stamp. My point here is that the Powers card was actually
printed with this group of 34 subjects. Of which, 33 of them became 150/350 series cards. The Powers card was discontinued due to his untimely death;
therefore, he was not printed with any 350 series backs. As he would have been printed, had he continued in his BB career.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/6powersbacks.jpg
TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206EddiePlankSC150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Sovereign460CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/amattyab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AB350JohnsonCrawfdBaker12x.jpg



Post #1......Introduction....starting with Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, Inside T206 (http://www.oldcardboard.com/t/t206/insidet206-centennial-edition.pdf)
An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series.

Plus, an early and very significant T206 thread was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=81906&highlight=epdg)
Lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's in this thread exploring various aspects of the T206 series (including surveys). Resulting in 363 meaningful posts.

In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start
in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=82317&highlight=super+set)

Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle
"error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=87180)


Click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted


Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)

Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816) (apple green cards)

Post #5......350/460 series backs identified (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)

Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)

Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=5)

Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=6)

Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=7)

Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=7)

Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=8)

Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's ! (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=8)

Post #93.....T206 "Proofs" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)

Post #96.....UZIT checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)

Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)

Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)

Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=11)

Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=11)

Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=11)

Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=13)

Posts #128 - 131..Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=13)

Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=14)

Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=15)

Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=15)

Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=17)

Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=17)

Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=18)

Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=19)

Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=19)

Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=20)

Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=20)

Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=21)

Posts #231 >> 234.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=24)

Posts #242 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=25)

Post #262.....T206 Southern League cards (re-visited) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=27)

Posts #263 >> 270.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=27)

Posts #271 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=28)

Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=29)

Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=31)

Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects...... (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=33)

Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=34)


In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors.
However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s).


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE......Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Bk150PdSovSC25SC30Hindu12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpg
Only these five T-brands were printed on the backs of the 150-only T206's


Presented here is a theory of which I presented some years ago, that I expect will stir up some controversy on this forum.

When American Lithographic was forced to remove the Wagner image on their 150-only series sheet, they replaced him with the Schulte (front view) image.

The criticism that I expect of my theory, is that this Schulte is part of the Elite 11 group. Well, I say do not be so quick to dismiss my proposition. For it has
not been proven that one lonely Schulte card with a PIEDMONT 350 back is not just a mis-printed error. Cards of the Elite 11 group are defined by having a
PIEDMONT 350 back and an EPDG back.

Therefore, until I see this Schulte card with an EPDG back, which would prove it belongs to the Elite 11 group, I consider this card a 150-only series subject.

Feel free to discuss this issue.



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206WagnerRpt15x.jpg > > > > > > http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Piedmont150Schulte.jpg




TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE......Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Bk150PdSovSC25SC30Hindu12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpg
Only these five T-brands were printed on the backs of the 150-only T206's


There is another card in this 150-only series that interests me, besides the Plank and Wagner cards. Check-out the Al Burch image.

It's my guess that the Statue of Liberty and Ellis Island are pictured in the distant background.

The picture of Burch appears to have been taken at the old Brooklyn Heights field when he played for Brooklyn. The Statue of Liberty is can be seen from this venue.

Anyone here would like to venture another guess as to what buildings are in this card's background ? ................................v

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Piedmont150AmesMBroGBroBurchDonlin.jpg


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Name a T206 guy who pitched a No-Hitter in his 1st Major League start ?


First one here who posts the correct answer to this Trivia quiz is rewarded with a T206 card.


TED Z
.

[HawkFan70]

Ted-

Is it Ted Breitenstein?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Phillippe threw one his first year, not sure if it was his first start

[tedzan]

Ted-

Is it Ted Breitenstein?


Congratulations Chris....you are the Trivia King.

Ted Breitenstein's 1st Major League start was on October 4, 1891. He faced the minimum number of 27 batters pitching a no-hitter
for the St. Louis Browns (his hometown team). He allowed just one Walk, which was erased by a double play. During Ted's 20-year
career (Major and Minor Leagues), he pitched 3 no-hitters.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/BreitensteinOMxHINDUxP350xCOUPON.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/BreitensteinOMxHINDUxP350xCOUPONb.jpg



Chris......email me and we'll talk about the T206 card that I'm going to send you..... tedzan11@comcast.net



TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Name the T206 guy who holds a pitching record that I think has never been equaled. Most total games WON in his first two Major League seasons ?

First one here who posts the correct answer to this Trivia quiz is rewarded with a T206 card.


TED Z
.

[Cliff Bowman]

Name the T206 guy who holds a pitching record that I think has never been equaled. Most total games WON in his first two Major League seasons ?

First one here who posts the correct answer to this Trivia quiz is rewarded with a T206 card.


TED Z
.

Vic Willis?

[mrdbrooks77]

Howie Camnitz?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[nat]

Joe McGinnity?

[Sean]

Joe McGinnity?

Rube Marquard?

[Thromdog]

Larry Corcoran had 74!!! Of course not a t206

[tedzan]

OK guys,

So far Joe McGinnity leads the pack. At this point, Nat (post # 341) appears to be the winner of this quiz.

56......Joe McGinnity (1899-1900)
52......Vic Willis (1898-1899)
48......Russ Ford (1910-1911)
37......Eddie Plank (1901-1902)
37......Ed Reulbach (1905-1906)
36......Cy Young (1890-1891)

We'll see if there are any more responses by 9 PM (EST) tonite. Then, I will declare the winner.

Thanks to everyone who participated in this quiz.


TED Z
.

[njdunkin1]

McGinnity seems right to me.

Great contest!

[tedzan]

Joe McGinnity?


Nat you are the Trivia King tonite.

Email me and we'll talk about the T206 card that I'm going to send you..... tedzan11@comcast.net



TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Ted-

Is it Ted Breitenstein?



Joe McGinnity?


Chris and Nick

The T206 cards awarded to you for the correct answers to the Trivia quiz #1 and #2 will be in the mail to you today.

Thanks for participating in these Trivia quizzes.


TED Z
.

[HawkFan70]

I received the card today. Thanks so much, Ted!

[tedzan]

Double post.

[BoyWonder089]

Apologies if this is not the correct thread for this question, but I didn't want to start a new thread for what is probably a basic question.

My monster number is 1, so my T206 knowledge is very limited. I recently picked up a Bill Clymer in rough shape. I just happened to notice that there appears to be extra bright red spots on his face and hands. I have heard of missing red ink, but never extra red ink? Does anybody have an explanation as to what might cause this discoloration? Does it change any thing from a value standpoint?

Apologies for the photo, I am currently unable to take a decent scan.

[tedzan]

Apologies if this is not the correct thread for this question, but I didn't want to start a new thread for what is probably a basic question.

My monster number is 1, so my T206 knowledge is very limited. I recently picked up a Bill Clymer in rough shape. I just happened to notice that there appears to be extra bright red spots on his face and hands. I have heard of missing red ink, but never extra red ink? Does anybody have an explanation as to what might cause this discoloration? Does it change any thing from a value standpoint?

Apologies for the photo, I am currently unable to take a decent scan.


Hi

The "redness" that appears on Clymer's cheeks, lips, and left hand varies from card to card. On some Clymer cards it is very faint, while others (like yours) it is more intense.

Good luck on collecting the T206's.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206EddiePlankSC150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Sovereign460CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/amattyab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AB350JohnsonCrawfdBaker12x.jpg



Post #1......Introduction....starting with Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, Inside T206 (http://www.oldcardboard.com/t/t206/insidet206-centennial-edition.pdf)
An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series.

Plus, an early and very significant T206 thread was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=81906&highlight=epdg)
Lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's in this thread exploring various aspects of the T206 series (including surveys). Resulting in 363 meaningful posts.

In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start
in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=82317&highlight=super+set)

Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle
"error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=87180)


Click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted


Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)

Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816) (apple green cards)

Post #5......350/460 series backs identified (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)

Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)

Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=5)

Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=6)

Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=7)

Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=7)

Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=8)

Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's ! (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=8)

Post #93.....T206 "Proofs" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)

Post #96.....UZIT checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)

Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)

Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)

Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=11)

Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=11)

Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=11)

Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=13)

Posts #128 - 131..Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=13)

Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=14)

Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=15)

Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=15)

Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=17)

Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=17)

Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=18)

Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=19)

Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=19)

Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=20)

Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=20)

Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=21)

Posts #231 >> 234.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=24)

Posts #242 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=25)

Post #262.....T206 Southern League cards (re-visited) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=27)

Posts #263 >> 270.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=27)

Posts #271 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=28)

Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=29)

Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=31)

Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects...... (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=33)

Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=34)

Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=36)


In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors.
However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s).


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/tedzan77/Piedmont150WagnerX.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206EddiePlankSC150x30xz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206LajoieBatP350x460x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206MarquardP350x11.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206ChanceBatP460x11.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206MAGIEx13.jpg


522 of the 524 subjects** which comprise a complete T206 set were printed with PIEDMONT backs. The PIEDMONT brand
dominates the T206 population to the tune of 52 - 55%. The following is a complete list of the PIEDMONT cards with respect
to the Series they were printed in.

The SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 sub-set ranks 2nd in this category....as it consists of 469 subjects printed with this back.


PIEDMONT 150

150 Series..................156 subjects


Abbaticchio (brown sleeves)
Alperman
Ames (hands at chest)
Ames (portrait)
Ball (New York)
Bates
Beaumont
Bell (hands over head)
Bender (portrait)
Bergen (bat)
Birmingham
Bowerman
Bradley (portrait)
Bransfield
Bresnahan (portrait)
Bridwell (portrait-no cap)
M. Brown (Cubs)
M. Brown (portrait)
G. Brown (Chicago Nat'l)
Burch (batting)

Camnitz (arms folded)
Chance (red portrait)
Chase (pink portrait)
Chase (white cap)
Chesbro
Cicotte
Clarke (portrait)
Clarke (bat)
JJ Clarke
Cobb (green)
Cobb (bat on shoulder)
Conroy (fielding)
Coveleski
Crandall (no cap)
Crawford (throwing)
Criger
Criss
Dahlen (Boston Nat'l)
George Davis (Chicago)
Harry Davis (A's)

Delehanty (Washington)
Devlin
Donlin (fielding)
Donlin (seated)
Donohue
Donovan (portrait)
Dooin
Doolin
Dougherty (portrait)
L. Doyle (throwing)
Durham
Elberfeld (New York)
Evers (bat-blue sky)
Evers (portrait)
Ewing
Ferris
Flick
Ganley
Gibson
Gilbert

Goode
Griffith (portrait)
Hahn
Hemphill
Herzog (New York)
Hinchman (Cleveland)
Isbell
Jacklitsch
Jennings (portrait)
Johnson (portrait)
F. Jones (portrait)
F. Jones (hands at hips)
Tom Jones
Jordan (portrait)
Joss (portrait)
Karger
Keeler (portrait)
Keeler (bat)
Killian (pitching)
Kleinow (bat)

Kling
Konetchy (glove high)
Lajoie (portrait)
Lajoie (throwing)
Lake (New York)
Leach (portrait)
Leifield (pitching)
Liebhardt
Lindaman
Lobert
Lumley
Lundgren (Cubs)
Magie (portrait)....[ERROR]
Magee (portrait)
Manning (bat)
Marquard (hands at side)
Mathewson (portrait)
Mathewson (white cap)
McGraw (portrait-no cap)
McGraw (pointing)

McIntyre (Brooklyn)
McQuillan (ball in hand)
Merkle (portrait)
Mullin (throwing)
Murphy (throwing)
Nicholls (hands on knees)
Niles
Oldring (fielding)
O'Leary (portrait)
Overall (portrait)
Owen
Parent
Pastorius
Pattee
Pelty (horizontal)
Plank
Powell
Powers
Reulbach (glove)
Ritchey

Rucker (portrait)
Schaefer (Detroit)
Schlei (catching)
Schmidt (throwing)
Schulte (front view)
Seymour (batting)
Shaw (St Louis Nat'L)
Sheckard (no glove)
Shipke
F. Smith (Chicago)
Spade
Spencer
Stahl (no glove)
Steinfeldt (portrait)
Stone
Stovall (portrait)
Sullivan
L. Tannehill (Chicago)
Tenney
Tinker (portrait)

Tinker (hands on knees)
Turner
Waddell (portrait)
Waddell (throwing)
Honus Wagner
Wagner (bat on left)
Wallace
Walsh
Weimer
Doc White (portrait)
Wilhelm (hands at chest)
Williams
Willis (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-no cap)
CYoung (portrait)
CYoung (bare hand)



** Note......The Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis variations) were printed only with POLAR BEAR backs.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

PIEDMONT 350


350-only Series..................Major League subjects = 123

Abstein
Arellanes
Atz
Barbeau
Barry (A's)
Beck
Becker
Bender (trees)
Bescher (portrait)
Bliss
Bresnahan (bat)
G. Brown (Washington)
Burns
Bush
Byrne
Campbell
Carrigan
Charles
Collins (A's)
Cree

Dahlen (Brooklyn)
Demmitt (New York)
Dineen
Donovan (throwing)
Doolan (fielding)
Downey (fielding)
Joe Doyle (NY Nat'L)......[ERROR]
Joe Doyle (New York)
Dubuc
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Dygert
Easterly
Egan
Elberfeld (portrait-Washington)
Engle
Evans
Ferguson
Fiene (portrait)
Fiene (throwing)
Fletcher

Fromme
Gasper
Graham (Boston)
Graham (St Louis)
Gray
Groom
Hartsel
Hoblitzell
Hoffman (St Louis)
Hofman
Howard (Chicago)
Howell (portrait)
Huggins (portrait)
Huggins (hands at mouth)
Hulswitt
Hunter
Jones (Detroit)
Killian (portrait)
Kleinow (catching--New York)
Knabe

Knight (portrait)
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Krause (pitching)
Kroh
Laporte
Lennox
Livingstone
Lord
Maddox
Marquard (portrait)
Marshall
Mattern
McAleese
McBride
McCormick
Mc Elveen
McIntyre (Detroit)
McLean
Milan

Miller (Pittsburg)
Mitchell (Cinci)
Moran (Chicago)
Moriarty
Mowery
Mullen (portrait)
Murray (bat)
Myers (bat)
Myers (fielding)
Nicholls (bat)
Oakes
O'Hara (New York)
Paskert
Perring
Pfeister (seated)
Phelps
Phillippe
Purtell
Quinn
Raymond

Rhoades (arm extended)
Rhoades (hands at chest)
Rhodes
Rossman
Schmidt (portrait)
Scott
F. Smith (Chicago--white cap)
Snodgrass (bat)
Speaker
Stanage
Starr
Stephens
Street (portrait)
Summers
Sweeney (Boston)
J. Tannehill (Washington)
Thomas
Titus
Unglaub
Warhop

Willett
Wilson
Zimmerman



350-only Series..................Minor League subjects = 86

Abbott
Adkins
Anderson
Armbruster
Arndt
Barger
Barry (Milwaukee)
Batch
Beckley
Blackburne
Brain
Brashear
Burchell
Burke
Butler
Carr
Casey
Cassidy
Chappelle
Clark

Clancy
Clymer
Collins (Minneapolis)
Congalton
Cravath
Cross
Davidson
Delehanty
Dessau
Dorner
Downs
Dunn (Baltimore)
Flanagan
Freeman
Ganzel
Grimshaw
Hall
Hallman
Hannifan
Hayden

Hinchman (Toledo)
Hoffman (Providence)
Jackson
Kelley
Kisinger
Kruger
Lattimore
Lavender
Lennox
Lundgren (KC)
Malarkey
Maloney
McGann
McGinley
McGinnity
McGlynn
Milligan
Mitchell (Toronto)
Moeller
Moran (Providence)

Nattress
Oberlin
O'Brien
O'Neill
Phelan
Pickering
Poland
Puttman
Quillen
Randall
Ritter
Rudolph
Schirm
Schlafly
Schreck
Shannon
Sharpe
Shaw (Providence)
Slagle
Smith (Buffalo)

Strang
Taylor
Thielmann
White (Buffalo)
Wright
Irv Young



Southern League Series..................48 subjects

Bastian
Bay
Bernhard
Breitenstein
Carey
Coles
Cranston
Ellam
Foster
Fritz
Greminger
Guiheen
Hart (Little Rock)
Hart (Montgomery)
Helm
Hickman
Hooker
Howard (Savannah)
Jordan (Atlanta)
Kiernan

King
Lafitte
Lentz
Lipe
Manion
McCauley
Miller
Molesworth
Mullaney
Orth
Otey
Paige
Perdue
Persons
Reagan
Revelle
Rockenfeld
Ryan
Seitz
Shaughnessy

Sid Smith (Atlanta)
Smith (Shreveport)
Stark
Thebo
Thornton
Violat
Westlake
White (Houston)



Information on the PIEDMONT 350/460 series and the 460-only series will follow.



TED Z
.

[Rich Falvo]

Ted - I think the 350-only minor league list needs Moran (Providence) in place of Maddox.

Thanks for putting together these lists. Great information.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AB350JohnsonCrawfdBaker12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChaseRedHINDUx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AB460JenningsSGC60x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CobbBatSovereign350x13.jpg
A sample of 6 subjects from the 350/460 series


Initially, these 63 subjects were printed with PIEDMONT 350 backs. Circa Fall 1910, American Lithographic continued printing these guys with 460 series backs (AB 460,
BL 460, CY 460, LENOX, UZIT, red HINDU, PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42, etc.)
Illustrated here is my concept of the 72-card sheet depicting 66 subjects (including the 6 super-prints). The arrangement of these cards is arbitrary, however it is valid,
as it is based on the fact that all of these cards were printed with the "apple green" SOVEREIGN 350 backs.
Three of these guys (Joe Doyle, Simon Nicholls, Bob Rhoades) were not continued into the 460 series, since their Major League careers had ended.


v.................................... Six super-prints ....................................v
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AT206superprints9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AmeBakBenCobConDav9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AT206superprints9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BurDonDooJDoyLDoyElb9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BerBraBroCraDouDow9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/GrifJennJenJosLajLak9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ManJohnMagMcQMurpNich9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/KleJorKonLeaMcInMul9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/LeifOLeOvePelPfeReul9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/RhoSmitRucSeySnoSta9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/WagWilSweStrCYoSte9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/WilhTinWillWilWillWhi9x.jpg



PIEDMONT 350-460


350/460 Series..................63 subjects


Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Davis (A's)
Crawford (bat)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)

Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (both hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)

Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)

Willis (throwing)
Wiltse (throwing)
CYoung (glove)


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

350/460 series backs


A picture is worth 1000 words......so, here are the 22 tobacco advertisement backs that are available on the T206 Subjects in the 350/460 Series......


460-type backs

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/10cardCollage460series25xx.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChaseP460factory42b.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206xLENOXx37_1.jpg

............. Factory #42 .............



350-type backs

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206ElberfeldDRUMx25b_1.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/ABxPDxSOVxSCxSC350x25.jpg


Assorted backs

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/EPDGxOMxPBxTolstoi25x.jpg




Stay tuned for the PIEDMONT 460-only Series info


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

460-only series

The 460-only T206 cards were issued in late 1910 thru early 1911. American Lithographic documents appear to place the last T206 press runs in Feb - Mar 1911.
The AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, UZIT, red HINDU, LENOX, and PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 cards were printed in the final press runs of T206's.

Two print runs make up the 460-only series. The 1st group includes the 12 subjects which I refer to as the "Exclusive 12". These 12 guys were printed separately
on their own sheet. I base this hypothesis on several factors. Foremost being that these 12 subjects are the only ones in the 460-only series of 46 subjects found
with the red HINDU backs.

The 2nd group lists the other 34 subjects in this series.


PIEDMONT 460


460-only Series..................46 subjects


Group 1 (Exclusive 12)

Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Hummel
McGraw (glove at hip)
Pfeffer
Sheckard (glove)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Wheat


Group 2

Abbaticcio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (pitching)
Bergen (catching)
Bescher (arms above)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (arms at side)
Camnitz (arms over head)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Doyle (portrait)
Frill
Herzog (Boston Nat'l)
Howell (hands at waist)
Lake (with ball)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers (portrait)

Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (bat)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Schaefer (Washington)
Schulte (back view)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Seymour (portrait)
H. Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)



Illustrated here is my concept of an Exclusive 12 printed sheet....based on American Lithographic's 19-inch wide press.
And a standard size 19" x 24" cardboard sheet.

.. v ............................................ 19" x 24" sheet .............................................v
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/Ex12sheet96cards38x.jpg



TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Ted - I think the 350-only minor league list needs Moran (Providence) in place of Maddox.

Thanks for putting together these lists. Great information.


Hi Rich
Thanks for catching the Moran omission.
Haste makes waste when doing lots of "cut-n-paste" :)

And, thanks for the kind words.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

This T206 trivia quiz, I think may be somewhat tougher than the previous ones on this thread. Unless one of you Net54 T206 geniuses are already aware of it.


There is one (and only one) T206 subject in the set that was not printed with a period after it's team letter Y in it's caption.

Can you identify this T206 subject (and it's pose) ?

First correct answer wins a T206 card.


TED Z
.

[njdunkin1]

Can you identify this T206 subject (and it's pose) ?




TED Z
.

Mr. Ted,

Great question--is it Wiltse (pitching)?

I looked through some cards and initially thought it was a trick question--Crandall (cap) has "New York" spelled out, but then I noticed that Devore, Ford, and McGraw (G@H) all have this.

[mybuddyinc]

Hooks Wiltse (Pitching)


:)

Of course he was at the end of going through entire set ..... :p


311467

[mybuddyinc]

Looks like NJ's edit beat my initial response ...........

............. way to go NJ !!!! ............. ;)

[Sean]

Nice going N.J. and Scott. I couldn't find anyone missing the period.

[HobokenJon]

Now wait a second, before we declare any winners . . . What about all of the players for Jersey City, Kansas City and Montgomery? Their team names end in Y. The team names on their cards are in all capital letters. There’s no period after the Y at the end of their team names. The question didn’t say the team had to be New York or be abbreviated. What do you say, Ted? Do I win? :-)

[tedzan]

NJ Dunkin is the winner of this quiz and the T206 card.


Email me NJ....and we'll talk about the T206 card that I'm going to send you..... tedzan11@comcast.net


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/SovereignWiltsePitching.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/CobbSovereign350x25b.jpg



Mr. Ted,

Great question--is it Wiltse (pitching)?

I looked through some cards and initially thought it was a trick question--Crandall (cap) has "New York" spelled out, but then I noticed that Devore, Ford, and McGraw (G@H) all have this.




TED Z
.

[tedzan]

.* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206EddiePlankSC150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Sovereign460CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/amattyab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AB350JohnsonCrawfdBaker12x.jpg



Post #1......Introduction....starting with Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, Inside T206 (http://www.oldcardboard.com/t/t206/insidet206-centennial-edition.pdf)
An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series.

Plus, an early and very significant T206 thread was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=81906&highlight=epdg)
Lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's in this thread exploring various aspects of the T206 series (including surveys). Resulting in 363 meaningful posts.

In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start
in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=82317&highlight=super+set)

Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle
"error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=87180)


Click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted


Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)

Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816) (apple green cards)

Post #5......350/460 series backs identified (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)

Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)

Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=5)

Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=6)

Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=7)

Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=7)

Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=8)

Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's ! (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=8)

Post #93.....T206 "Proofs" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)

Post #96.....UZIT checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)

Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)

Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)

Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=11)

Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=11)

Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=11)

Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=13)

Posts #128 - 131..Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=13)

Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=14)

Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=15)

Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=15)

Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=17)

Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=17)

Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=18)

Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=19)

Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=19)

Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=20)

Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=20)

Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=21)

Posts #231 >> 234.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=24)

Posts #242 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=25)

Post #262.....T206 Southern League cards (re-visited) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=27)

Posts #263 >> 270.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=27)

Posts #271 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=28)

Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=29)

Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=31)

Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects...... (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=33)

Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=34)

Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=36)

Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=34)

Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=37)


In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors.
However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s).


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * *

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/tedzan77/Piedmont150WagnerX.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206EddiePlankSC150x30xz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206MAGIEx13.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/JoeDoylePiedmont350x13.jpg


It's interesting to look back on what our thinking was regarding the Wagner, Plank, Magie, and Joe Doyle Nat'L cards 12+ years ago.

Check-out this Net54 thread (Oct 8, 2005)...... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=78693

It is early Net54 threads (such as this one) that "sparked" our imagination and research which have resulted in developing a keen
understanding of the complexities of the T206 "Monster".

Any one here want to reminisce some more about this subject......feel free to chime in.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

This quiz involves 2 ballplayers which were not featured in the T206 set.

Although, they should have been in this set.

Can you identify these 2 guys ? And, explain the strange situation why they were traded for each other ? ?


TED Z
.

[rats60]

This quiz involves 2 ballplayers which were not featured in the T206 set.

Although, they should have been in this set.

Can you identify these 2 guys ? And, explain the strange situation why they were traded for each other ? ?


TED Z
.

Bris Lord and Joe Jackson?

[nat]

Just looked up that deal. Who would have thought that Joe Jackson would be a player to be named later?

[tedzan]

Bris Lord and Joe Jackson?


You correctly guessed the 2 ballplayers that were involved in one of the most bizarre trades in BB history.

Email me and we'll talk about the T206 card which I will send you..... tedzan11@comcast.net




http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/E104brislord1910WC.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/HinduJoeJacksonNewOrleans.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/HinduJoeJacksonNOb.jpg



Bristol Lord traded (July 23, 1910) by the Cleveland Naps to the Philadelphia A's for a player to be named later. July 30, 1910, the Philadelphia A's
sent Shoeless Joe Jackson to the Cleveland Naps to complete the trade.


Connie Mack was a great Manager with a keen talent for recruiting some great ballplayers (especially from the College ranks) for 50 years.
However, Connie Mack certainly did not give Shoeless Joe a chance to show his extraordinary hitting ability with the A's.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/1950conniemackprogram.jpg


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/conniemacke96.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1940PbConnieMack.jpg



Connie Mack believed that ballplayers in College received better training **......than the ones in the Minor League Farm system.
Connie had a keen sense of talent, and he (and his brother) would scout out young recruits from College campuses.
Here is a list of the A's in the T206 set who started on College teams......


Jack Barry (Holy Cross)
Chief Bender (Dickinson)
Eddie Collins (Columbia)
Harry Davis (Girard College)
Harry Krause (St Mary's College)
Simon Nicholls (Maryland)
Eddie Plank (Gettysburg College)
Doc Powers (Holy Cross)

and, missing from the T206 set
Andy Coakley (Holy Cross)
Jack Coombs (Colby College)......(1910 W-L = 31-9, ERA = 1.30)



** Note....Connie Mack (the Early Years of Baseball), Norman Macht

Hey guys....I highly recommend this book.
While reading it, you'll imagine the guys in your T206 set come alive. Almost every player from that era is covered in this book.


TED Z
.

[slipk1068]

I read somewhere that Connie Mack knew exactly what he had in Joe Jackson. He basically gave him away as a gift to Charles Somers, owner of the Cleveland Naps.

Without Somers support, the American League would have folded in its early years. Around 1910, Somers was struggling financially, so Connie Mack sent him Joe Jackson as a gift. There should probably be a Charles Somers monument in every American League ballpark :)

I don't remember where I read this, but I believe it was Connie Mack's own words. Maybe someone else can confirm this?

[Sean]

Without Somers support, the American League would have folded in its early years. Around 1910, Somers was struggling financially, so Connie Mack sent him Joe Jackson as a gift. There should probably be a Charles Somers monument in every American League ballpark :)



If this is true there should be a Connie Mack statue in every American Ballpark. Except perhaps Chicago, where Joe Jackson's tenure didn't end well.

Still, if they could keep Comiskey's name on the ballpark for 80 more years, perhaps they've forgiven Jackson as well.

[tedzan]

I read somewhere that Connie Mack knew exactly what he had in Joe Jackson. He basically gave him away as a gift to Charles Somers, owner of the Cleveland Naps.

Without Somers support, the American League would have folded in its early years. Around 1910, Somers was struggling financially, so Connie Mack sent him Joe Jackson as a gift. There should probably be a Charles Somers monument in every American League ballpark :)

I don't remember where I read this, but I believe it was Connie Mack's own words. Maybe someone else can confirm this?


David
With all due respect to you, I cannot buy this bit regarding the American League folding. In the first decade of the 20th Century, the American League under the command
of Ban Johnson outdrew the National League in attendance by wide margins.
For example, check out these headlines of Opening Day at Shibe Park (April 12 1909) in Philadelphia..........................

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/1909OpeningDayShibe25.jpg



Shoeless Joe Jackson's performance with Greenville (.346) in 1908, and Savannah (.358) in 1909 impressed Connie Mack. However, Joe Jax just couldn't "hack" it playing
with the College bred guys on the A's. In part, because some of them were not too kind to this "rebel rookie" who they considered "illiterate".
Believe it or not....some were still "fighting the Civil War in the beginning of the 20th Century. You can check-out this fact....during the T206 era there were very few Major
Leaguers that hailed from the "Deep South" (SC, GA, ALA, Miss). Of course, Ty Cobb was one, and therein lies a lot of his problems.

Connie Mack saw a chance to recover Bristol Lord from the Cleveland Naps, so he traded away Joe Jax. Very quickly, Joe's Cleveland teammates took a liking to him and his
performance reflected this as he batted .408 in 1911.

That's the story, as I understand it.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

.* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206EddiePlankSC150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Sovereign460CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/amattyab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AB350JohnsonCrawfdBaker12x.jpg



Post #1......Introduction....starting with Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, Inside T206 (http://www.oldcardboard.com/t/t206/insidet206-centennial-edition.pdf)
An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series.

Plus, an early and very significant T206 thread was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=81906&highlight=epdg)
Lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's in this thread exploring various aspects of the T206 series (including surveys). Resulting in 363 meaningful posts.

In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start
in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=82317&highlight=super+set)

Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle
"error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=87180)


Click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted


Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)

Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816) (apple green cards)

Post #5......350/460 series backs identified (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)

Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)

Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=5)

Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=6)

Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=7)

Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=7)

Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=8)

Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's ! (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=8)

Post #93.....T206 "Proofs" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)

Post #96.....UZIT checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)

Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)

Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)

Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=11)

Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=11)

Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=11)

Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=13)

Posts #128 - 131..Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=13)

Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=14)

Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=15)

Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=15)

Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=17)

Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=17)

Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=18)

Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=19)

Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=19)

Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=20)

Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=20)

Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=21)

Posts #231 >> 234.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=24)

Posts #242 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=25)

Post #262.....T206 Southern League cards (re-visited) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=27)

Posts #263 >> 270.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=27)

Posts #271 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=28)

Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=29)

Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=31)

Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects...... (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=33)

Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=34)

Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=36)

Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=34)

Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=37)

Posts #369 >> 376.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=37)

Post #378.....Remembering Jantz Morey (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=38)


In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors.
However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s).


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Thanks to Net54, I first met Jantz Morey at the 2008 National. And, I looked forward to each subsequent National to get together with him.
We became instant friends, talking T206 cards and trading them. Our conversation started by Jantz bringing up the subject of my "Elite 11"
thread (posted in the Fall of 2007). He was fascinated by these rare PIEDMONT 350 cards. He was happy to show me 8 of these cards that
he had acquired in less than a year. Plus he had two duplicates (Lindaman and Mullin).

I mentioned to him that I was missing Mullin with the PIEDMONT 350 back. He gave me his extra Mullin and did not want anything in return.
That's the kind of guy Jantz was.
Subsequently, I returned the favor by sending him POLAR BEAR cards for his T206 run.

At the National's, we would talk T206's for what seemed like hours. Jantz really impressed me with his keen insight into the complexities of
the T206 set. We would delve into the nitty-gritty details of this set. Also, Jantz loved finding printing anomalies in T206's. He would contact
me when he found one, so we could compare notes. Here's an example where he noticed that occasionally a Mullin card would be found with
a printer's mark above the arm. Between the two of us, we found 8 of these cards with this identical printer's mark.

.............................................v
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/T206mullinP350x150SOVx50x_1.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/T206mullinP350x150SOVx50bx_1.jpg



There is so much more that I could write about regarding our 11 year old friendship. I still cannot believe Jantz is not with us anymore.


GOD Bless his soul....and, may GOD comfort his family.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Approx. 12 weeks before a tragic event in BB....there was an occurrence in Griffith Stadium which eerily portends this tragic event.

#1....What "tragic event" am I referring to ?

#2....can you describe this occurrence in Washington ?


Note......
I changed the time between these 2 events, and corrected the Stadium where the 1st event occurred. The story remains the same.
So, give this another try. Please excuse my error due to my hasty posting.


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[Noy]

I assume the tragic event in question was Carl Mays hitting and killing Ray Chapman with a pitch, but I have no idea what the foreshadowing event might have been. Interested in finding out.

[tedzan]

I assume the tragic event in question was Carl Mays hitting and killing Ray Chapman with a pitch, but I have no idea what the foreshadowing event might have been. Interested in finding out.

Noy

Your answer for the 1st question is correct....Ray Chapman died Aug 17, 1920 after having been struck by a ball pitched by Carl Mays the previous day.

Stay tuned for the story regarding the 2nd question. You'll find it very interesting.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Well, is this quiz that tough......or is there just no interest in this topic ? ?

Come on, some of you guys on this forum are pretty damn smart, so I'm puzzled that no one has offered an answer here.

Noy has got us off to a good start with Ray Chapman. I'll give you guys 2 more hours to figure out the answer.


Trust me, you will find the final answer quite thought-provoking.


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[t206kid]

Did a player get struck by lightning during a game? I vaguely recall that happened around the time Chapman passed away

[tedzan]

Hi Jay

That may have happened, but it's not the answer to this quiz.


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[tedzan]

Approx. 12 weeks before a tragic event in BB....there was an occurrence in Griffith Stadium which eerily portends this tragic event.

QUIZ

#1....What "tragic event" am I referring to ?

#2....can you describe this occurrence in Washington ?


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.


On May 26, 1920 Ray Chapman was at bat vs Walter Johnson (who was pitching in relief) in the late innings. The fog started rolling into Griffith Stadium.
Chapman, who usually crowded the plate, had two quick strikes against him. At that point he stepped out of the batter's box and told the Umpire that he
cannot see the ball. He refused to face another pitch from Walter Johnson for fear of his life. The Umpire insisted he get back in the batters box.

Then Walter Johnson approached the Umpire, handed him the ball, and told him he was done pitching.

Now, I ask you....is this occurrence some sort of strange omen....or what ?


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206EddiePlankSC150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/SOVEREIGN150Johnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CYoungPiedmont150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/amattyab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Sovereign460CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McGrawGloveUZITxSGC30xx.jpg




This topic has intrigued me ever since I started collecting T206's in 1981. My following theories regarding this subject is based on my experience collecting uncut sheets
of Goudey's, Play Ball's, Leaf's, Bowman's, & Topps cards. Also, I have written articles on uncut sheets in The Baseball Cards Magazine, SCD, VCBC, and Old Cardboard.

So, I will start with American Lithographic's (ALC) original printing of the T206 cards (circa Spring/Summer 1909). ALC operated large printing presses for Artwork and
Advertising Banners. My research indicates that ALC used 19" inch track presses to print the T206 cards. These same size presses were used to print the T205's, T213's,
T214's, t215's, etc. cards

OK, let's start with the structure of the T206 set. The very first press run comprises of 12 subjects (which includes the famous Wagner card). It's the group of T206's we
refer to as the 150-only Series.

150-only Series
..http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/150onlyABBBDDx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/150onlyEPPRPlaWag12x.jpg..
l<.................................................. ...................... 19" inch wide sheet .................................................. .........................>l


Furthermore, there are 144 additional subjects that comprise the 150 Series. And, 144 is certainly a factor of 12.



A standard size sheet of cardboard in that era was 19" inch wide by 25" inches long. As many as 108 cards could be printed on this size sheet.

For example, shown here is my concept of a printed sheet of the Exclusive 12 cards in the 460-only Series. It's been proven that this group of 12 subjects in this series
of T206's was printed separately from the other subjects in the 460-only series.


.. v ............................................ 19" x 25" sheet .............................................v
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/Ex12sheet96cards38x.jpg




Stay tuned for more specific info regarding how the "12 factor" figures into the printing of the various series in the T206 set. The Southern League series
and the 350 Series will follow in the next post.



TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206EddiePlankSC150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/SOVEREIGN150Johnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CYoungPiedmont150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/amattyab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Sovereign460CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McGrawGloveUZITxSGC30xx.jpg



Southern Leaguer series

Originally, during the 150 series press runs, 34 - Southern Leaguers were printed. These 34 cards were issued with Brown HINDU backs. Then, ALC added 14 more
Southern Leaguers. All 48 of these cards were printed in a 12 across x 4 row format. These were issued 1st with OLD MILL backs, followed by PIEDMONT 350 backs.


350 Series

The 1910 COUPON set provides us an insight into the printing of T206's early in this series. Shown here is my simulated sheet of the 48 - Major Leaguers in the
1910 COUPON set. This sheet of 48 cards represents an early (circa Spring 1910) regular press run of T206 cards. ALC also used this T206 sheet to produce the
1910 COUPON cards.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1stQuad350seriesSheet12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/2ndQuad350seriesSheet12xxx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/3rdQuad350seriesSheet12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/4thQuad350serieSheet12xx.jpg




Stay tuned regarding how the "12 factor" figures into the printing of the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (No Frame) series, and the 460-only series in the next post.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206EddiePlankSC150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/SOVEREIGN150Johnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CYoungPiedmont150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/amattyab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Sovereign460CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McGrawGloveUZITxSGC30xx.jpg


AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (no frame) series

"The AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (no frame) subjects were printed on a 36-card sheet."

I posted this statement on Net54 quite a number of years ago. I was instantly questioned by another Net54 member who said there are 37 subjects in this series.
I replied....Very true. However, when ALC initially printed this series there were 36 guys, which included Simon Nicholls. Nicholls retired from BB on Apr 25, 1910.
Shortly afterwards, ALC replaced the Nicholls image on this 36-card sheet with Jake Stahl. My proof of this is by empirical means, and by Pop report data **

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/AB350NicholsStahl.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/AB350NicholsStahlB.jpg



460-only series

This last series of T206's is comprised of 46 subjects. The Exclusive 12 guys and 34 other subjects. I contend that ALC printed these 34 subjects on a 36-card sheet.
They Double-Printed (D-P) two subjects to fill out the 36-card sheet. This is standard practice in the printing trade. Which two guys were D-P ? From my experience
putting together 5 - T206 sets, my best guess is Tinker was D-P. And, I tend to think Needham was also D-P. Perhaps, one of you will chime in here was some other
guesses as to which two subjects may have been D-P.



** Note
While I realize POP report data cannot be considered as absolute, I think it's fair to say that the POP data
is representative of the relative availability of certain cards with respect to other cards within that group.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206EddiePlankSC150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/SOVEREIGN150Johnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CYoungPiedmont150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/amattyab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Sovereign460CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McGrawGloveUZITxSGC30xx.jpg


Continuing the "12 factor" in the printing of T206 sheets. It appears that the PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 cards were printed on a sheet formatted 12 cards across by
6 rows of cards down. Listed here are the 72 confirmed PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 cards. It has been my experience (and several serious collectors of this particular
PIEDMONT back) that 72 cards complete this run.



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/PIEDMONTfactory42bottomline50x.jpg


PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 confirmed list......72 subjects

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Chase (Trophy)
Cobb (red portrait)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Davis (A's)
Crawford (bat)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)

Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (both hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Latham
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Marquard (follow thru)
Mathewson (dark cap)

McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Merkle (throwing)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)

Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Willis (throwing)
Wiltse (throwing)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)
CYoung (glove)


OK, there are more examples forthcoming which support the "12 factor". However, with the examples already presented here in these 4 posts, if you are not convinced
that ALC printed the T206 sheets with 12 cards horizontally on a given sheet, then feel free to post your counter to my premise of how these cards were printed.
The "12 factor" jives with the mathematical structure of the various T206 series.



TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206EddiePlankSC150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/SOVEREIGN150Johnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CYoungPiedmont150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/amattyab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Sovereign460CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McGrawGloveUZITxSGC30xx.jpg


Switching to tobacco sets other than the T206 for the moment. Here are examples of the "12 factor" as it applies to the T205 set and the 1910-1912 T215 set.

The printing of the T205 set is quite complex. But, one series of this set is very clear. This series of T205's were printed circa Fall/Winter 1911............

T205 Minor Leaguers (12 subjects)

..http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205adkdunleeneecadfriX.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205mcahanbatmerphecolX.jpg...

.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205adkdunleeneecadfriBx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205mcahanbatmerphecolBxx.jpg..

l<.................................................. ...................... 19" inch wide sheet .................................................. .......................>l




The 1910-1912 T215 RED CROSS set consists of 96 subjects. My guess is ALC printed the first run of these cards on a 48-card sheet in 1910.
Followed by a 2nd printing of 48 different cards (circa 1911-1912).

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T215RedCross50xb.jpg


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206EddiePlankSC150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/SOVEREIGN150Johnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CYoungPiedmont150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/amattyab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Sovereign460CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McGrawGloveUZITxSGC30xx.jpg


Now, let's consider the T206 group we refer to as the Elite 11. Actually, 12 subjects are in this group when we include the one Frank Schulte card with the
rare PIEDMONT 350 back. Is this card a printer's anomaly, or was it legitimately issued ? Only time can provide us the answer to this question. So, for now
this series of guys conform with the magic "12 factor".


Elite 11.....plus Schulte
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/Elite12DahlenLindaman12x.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/Elite12LundgrenSchulte25x.jpg




SWEET CAPORAL 150, Factory #649 (overprint) sheet

The make-up of an early 150 Series sheet is known by virtue of the SWEET CAPORAL 150, Factory #649 overprinted cards. It is my firm opinion that the
34 subjects in this group were printed on a 36-card sheet, in which ALC included two Double-Printed (D-P) cards.

The number "34" does not in any way fit into the 150 Series structure of 156 subjects.

Regarding the two D-P cards, my 1st guess would be Johnson and Mathewson. Does anyone here want to venture a guess which 2 subjects were D-P ?


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/WJohnsonSweetCap150.jpg .http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/SweetCap150ovptFactory649.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/MattyWCx25x.jpg




TED Z
.

[gregr2]

Hi Ted, thanks for always providing such top notch T206 information. I notice you say you “speculate” about such things as players next to each other on a sheet and other things. My question is, did the printers not keep records or have they all been destroyed? Sorry if this has been answered before.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[tedzan]

Hi Ted, thanks for always providing such top notch T206 information. I notice you say you “speculate” about such things as players next to each other on a sheet and other things. My question is, did the printers not keep records or have they all been destroyed? Sorry if this has been answered before.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Thanks Greg, and, you ask a great question. Apparently, nothing was saved from American Litho's printing days of their various sets of tobacco cards (1909 - 1919).
Millions and millions of cards were produced, and not even a single sheet of cards has been discovered. This is really very strange. The only example which I know of
players horizontally adjacent to each other on a sheet is Chance (yellow portrait) and Cobb (red portrait), because I have seen a mis-cut T206 indicating this.

Years ago I was in downtown Manhattan, so I ventured over to Park Ave. and E 19th Street where the American Lithographic building still stands. I entered it, hoping
to find a showroom (or some kind of museum) displaying all the great stuff this great printing Company produced in the early 20th Century. What I found were many
professional offices, but no showrooms and no displays of any kind. The only thing I got out that visit was this photo I took of the building's entrance.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpg


One of the competitors to American Lithographic (ALC) was Schmidt Lithography in San Francisco. They produced the OBAK cards. If you go to San Francisco,
visit the museum that Schmidt Lithography has on display. It's a real shame that ALC did not do the same.


TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Thanks Greg, and, you ask a great question. Apparently, nothing was saved from American Litho's printing days of their various sets of tobacco cards (1909 - 1919).
Millions and millions of cards were produced, and not even a single sheet of cards has been discovered. This is really very strange. The only example which I know of
players horizontally adjacent to each other on a sheet is Chance (yellow portrait) and Cobb (red portrait), because I have seen a mis-cut T206 indicating this.

Years ago I was in downtown Manhattan, so I ventured over to Park Ave. and E 19th Street where the American Lithographic building still stands. I entered it, hoping
to find a showroom (or some kind of museum) displaying all the great stuff this great printing Company produced in the early 20th Century. What I found were many
professional offices, but no showrooms and no displays of any kind. The only thing I got out that visit was this photo I took of the building's entrance.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpg


One of the competitors to American Lithographic (ALC) was Schmidt Lithography in San Francisco. They produced the OBAK cards. If you go to San Francisco,
visit the museum that Schmidt Lithography has on display. It's a real shame that ALC did not do the same.


TED Z
.


There are several horizontal miscut T206's

Here are the ones I have scans of...

Stephens with a part Of Rossman
317936

Sheckard with Part of Goode, these two are also Neighbors on
a plate scratch sheet.

317937
317945

Bergen with part of Herzog (Boston) that Jantz picked up at last years national

317938

horizontal sheet mates can also be found on many of the ghosts...

317939
317940

on scraps such as the test print scrap....

317941

and on all of the plate scratch sheets

317943
317944

[jerrys]

Hi Ted,

Well worth reading is an article written by Andy Broome - Printing The Monster.

The article explores the logistics of assembling the player permission and images needed to produce such an enormous checklist anticipated and the clever way it was done. The connection between Joseph P. Knapp, the founder and head of the American Lithographic Company, and James B. Duke, head of the American Tobacco Company, for the printing of nearly all T-cards inserted into ATC products.

Explains the chromolithography process where T206 card sheets are passed through the printer six times for the six different layers of colors and the accuracy needed to keep perfect alignment. Blurry and ghost images as a result of any misalignment. Included in the engineering is the necessary ink color sequence of the layers in the printing.

Beside the image of the entrance to the ALC building there are pictures of a 10 ton lithopress and cutters that cut finished cardsheets of the T206 cards.

Published by Beckett Vintage Collector April, 2018.

[tedzan]

Thanks Jerry,

I will check out Andy Broome's article.


TED Z
.

[RedsFan1941]

i always enjoy seeing the latest research uncovered by the plate scratches. awesome groundbreaking work patrick

[tedzan]

Hi Pat

Thanks for posting those horizontal mis-cut T206's.

Many years ago I saw a horizontal mis-cut T206 with the Chance (yellow portrait) adjacent to the red Cobb.


TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Thanks Ronnie.

I've heard of the Chance/Cobb Ted but I have never seen the card
or a scan. I think Brian W still has the Sheckard/Goode which I think
is one of the coolest T206 cards.

[edhans]

[QUOTE=Pat R;1782169]

Bergen with part of Herzog (Boston) that Jantz picked up at last years national

317938

I sold that one to Jantz. Sad to think I won't be seeing him again.

[Pat R]

I sold that one to Jantz. Sad to think I won't be seeing him again.[/QUOTE]

Hi Ed,

Yes I remember when he posted it that he said he had bought it off you.

Jantz was one of those few people that you never heard anyone
that had anything bad to say about him. I used to meet up with him at
all the nationals that I went to and I've lost interest in going
this year after hearing about his passing.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206EddiePlankSC150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/SOVEREIGN150Johnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CYoungPiedmont150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/amattyab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Sovereign460CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McGrawGloveUZITxSGC30xx.jpg


Continuing on the "12 factor" theme. There are also some subtle examples of the "12 factor" regarding the printing of T206 backs in certain Series.
One example that comes to mind is the EPDG cards in the 350 Series. Exactly 108 subjects were printed with the EPDG back. Therefore, creating a
possible sheet which is formatted with 12 cards across by 9 rows down.

350 Series .................... 108 subjects printed with EPDG backs

Abbott
Anderson
Atz
Barbeau
Barger
Batch
Beck
Bender (trees)
Blackburne
Bliss
Brain
Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell
Burke
Burns
Bush
Campbell
Casey
Chance (yellow portrait)

Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Collins (A's)
Collins (Minneapolis)
Congalton
Cravath
Cree
Davidson
Demmitt (New York)
Dineen
Joe Doyle (arms over head)
Dubuc
Dunn (Baltimore)
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Easterly
Egan
Evans
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Fiene (portrait)

Fiene (throwing)
Flanagan
Freeman
Fromme
Gasper
Graham (Boston)
Graham (St Louis)
Gray
Groom
Hallman
Hannifan
Hartsel
Hinchman (Toledo)
Hoblitzell
Hofman
Hoffman (Providence)
Hulswitt
Jackson
Kelley
Kisinger

Kleinow (catching-NY)
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Kruger
Lattimore
Lavender
Livingstone
Lord
Lundgren (Kansas City)
Maddox
Mathewson (dark cap)
Mattern
McAleese
McCormick
McLean
Miller (Pittsburg)
Milligan
Myers (fielding)
Nattress
Oakes

Oberlin
Pfeister (seated)
Phillippe
Purtell
Puttman
Quillen
Rhoades (arm extended)
Rhodes
Rudolph
Schlafly
Scott
Shannon
Sharpe
Shaw (Providence)
Smith (Buffalo)
F. Smith (Chicago)
Stanage
Stephens
Sweeney (Boston)
Jesse Tannehill

Taylor
Thomas
Titus
White (Buffalo)
Willett
Wilson
Wright
Zimmerman


http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/aadvepdg.jpg



TED Z
.

[Jobu]

Thanks for continuing to post all of this great information Ted. It is nice to have a thread at the top of the board that deals with something other than complaining.

[tedzan]

Hi Bryan

I appreciate the complimentary words, good buddy.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChanceSovereign460x209.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/amattyab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Sovereign460CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChaseRedHINDUx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206MarquardP350x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/JoeDoylePiedmont350x13.jpg


In post #25 here, I present the A-B-C-D connection. ALC printed these T206 backs during the Summer of 1910. Theoretically, 190 subjects in the 350 Series
were printed with each of these 4 backs. The AMERICAN BEAUTY and CYCLE backs have been confirmed with all 190 subjects. The tougher BROAD LEAF back
has (so far) been confirmed with 177 subjects. And, the rare DRUM back has (so far) been confirmed with 151 (350 Series) subjects.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/FrankDelahantyABCDx50.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/FrankDelahantyABCDx50b.jpg


Here's the current list of the 177 subjects which have been confirmed with the BROAD LEAF 350 back:

Abbott
Abstein
Adkins
Anderson
Arellanes
Armbruster
Arndt
Barbeau
Barry (A's)
Barry (Milwaukee)
Batch
Beck
Becker
Beckley
Bender (trees)
Bescher (portrait)
Blackburne
Bliss
Brain
Bresnahan (bat)

Burchell
Burke
Burns
Bush
Butler
Campbell
Carrigan
Casey
Cassidy
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chappelle
Charles
Chase (portrait-blue)
Clancy
Clark
Clymer
Eddie Collins
Congalton
Cravath
Cree

Davidson
Delehanty (Louisville)
Dessau
Dineen
Donovan (throwing)
Doolan (fielding)
Dorner
Downey (fielding)
Downs
Dubuc
Jack Dunn (Baltimore)
Joe Dunn (Brooklyn)
Dygert
Egan
Engle
Evers (yellow sky)
Fiene (portrait)
Fiene (throwing)
Flanagan
Fletcher

Freeman
Fromme
Ganzel
Gasper
Graham (Boston)
Graham (St Louis)
Grimshaw
Hall
Hallman
Hannifan
Hartsel
Hayden
Hinchman (Toledo)
Hoblitzell
Hoffman (Providence)
Hoffman (St Louis)
Hofman
Howard (Chicago)
Howell (portrait)
Huggins (portrait)

Huggins (hands at mouth)
Hulswitt
Hunter
Jackson
Jones (Detroit)
Kelley
Killian (portrait)
Kisinger
Knabe
Knight (portrait)
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Krause (pitching)
Kroh
Kruger
LaPorte
Lattimore
Lavender
Lennox
Livingstone

Lord
Maddox
Malarkey
Maloney
Marquard (portrait)
Marshall
McAleese
McBride
McCormick
McElveen
McGinley
McGinnity
McGlynn
McIntyre (Detroit)
Merritt
Milan
Miller (Pittsburg)
Milligan
Mitchell (Cinci)
Mitchell (Toronto)

Moeller
Moran (Chicago)
Moran (Providence)
Moriarty
Mullen (portrait)
Murray (bat)
Myers (bat)
Myers (fielding)
Nattress
Oakes
Oberlin
O'Brien
O'Neill
Paskert
Perring
Pfeister (seated)
Phelan
Phelps
Phillippe
Poland

Purtell
Quillen
Quinn
Randall
Raymond
Rhoades (hands at chest)
Rhodes
Ritter
Rudolph
Schirm
Schreck
Scott
Sharpe
Shaw (Providence)
Slagle
Smith (Buffalo)
Snodgrass (bat)
Speaker
Stanage
Starr

Strang
Street (portrait)
Summers
Sweeney (Boston)
J. Tannehill (Washington)
Taylor
Thielman
Thomas
Titus
Unglaub
Warhop
White (Buffalo)
Willett (bat)
Wilson
Wright
Irv Young
Zimmerman


Hey guys,
Let's see some BROAD LEAF 350 cards. Especially, if you have one that does not appear on this list. I expect that eventually we'll find the 13 missing BL 350 guys.


TED Z
.

[Rhotchkiss]

Hi Ted, I hope all is well.

Totally off-topic, so please forgive me. I notice lately on ebay there are many Brown Hindus and Black Lenox (what is plural of Lenox??), that have paper loss on the back from where it seems the cards we glued to an album. My gut is that many of these cards must have come from the same collection, because its just too coincidental that this many of these backs are around at the same time, all with back damage. So, two questions:

1. Was there ever a large find of Broen Hindus or Black Lenox that all had back damage?

2. Were Brown Hindus and Black Lenox only released in certain parts of the country (like I think Drum and Nadja (in e cards) was St. Louis?

[tedzan]

Hi Ted,

So, two questions:

1. Was there ever a large find of Broen Hindus or Black Lenox that all had back damage?

2. Were Brown Hindus and Black Lenox only released in certain parts of the country (like I think Drum and Nadja (in e cards) was St. Louis?


#1......Most LENOX cards that I have, or have seen, don't have back damage.
Brown HIMDU cards occasionally are found with back damage. Shown here is
the last remaining one I have from a lot of brown HINDU's with back damage
that I picked up some years ago.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BrownHinduShawBk.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BrownHinduShaw.jpg



#2.....Factory #30 in New York manufactured the LENOX brand. LENOX brand
tobacco products were mainly marketed in the New York area & New England.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Continuing on with the BROAD LEAF 350 (BL 350) theme....certain T206's with BL 350 backs are extremely rare. Much more rare than
a good majority of the T206's with the BL 350 backs. An excellent example of this is my blue Chase BL 350 card. I traded for this card
in 1990 with my old buddy, Ralph. Ralph was great at finding rare T206 front/back combos in his neck of the woods (the Great Smoky
Mountains region).

This BL 350 blue Chase card was the only known one for many years. It's my understanding that another one was recently discovered.
Although, I have not seen it yet. Furthermore, PSA and SGC pop reports do not indicate any blue Chase / BL 350 cards graded.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/T206ChaseQuintuplcate75x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/ChaseABxBLxCOxCYx25.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206DRUMx50bx.jpg

If a DRUM card of Mr. Chase ever shows up, I will have a chance to complete this A-B-C-C-D sub-set.


The following 13 subjects have yet to be confirmed with BL 350 backs. I expect these cards will eventually be discovered.

Atz
Brashear
Carr
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Easterly
Ferguson
Mathewson (dark cap)
McGann
Pickering
Schlafly
Schmidt (portrait)
Stephens


So, come on guys, show-off your BL 350 cards. And perhaps, some one on this forum may come up with one of these missing 13 guys.



TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Here are Two Blue Chase Broad Leaf 350's that are graded
by PSA Ted.

318482

318483

[frankbmd]

https://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/frankbmd/t206-bvg/10011/abbott-bl-350

Abbott is #1 -------------alphabetically at least.

[tedzan]

https://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/frankbmd/t206-bvg/10011/abbott-bl-350

Abbott is #1 -------------alphabetically at least.


Hey Frank

Great looking BROAD LEAF 350 Abbott.....thanks for posting.

Excuse me for correcting you, but #1 is actually Abbaticchio.



Here are Two Blue Chase Broad Leaf 350's that are graded
by PSA Ted.

318482

318483


Hi Pat
Thanks for posting the BROAD LEAF 350 blue Chase cards.

But, I don't see these two cards listed in the PSA pop report data ? ?



TED Z
.

[Rhotchkiss]

My sole BL 350; it now resides in an SGC 55 case.

[tedzan]

Hi Ryan

Great looking BROAD LEAF 350 Evers.

and,

I'll add to these 2 guys to our gallery of BROAD LEAF 350 cards......

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/BroadLeafWrightMullenA.jpg

. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/BroadLeafWrightMullenB.jpg


TED Z
.

[rats60]

Here is my only Broadleaf.

[frankbmd]

Hey Frank

Great looking BROAD LEAF 350 Abbott.....thanks for posting.

Excuse me for correcting you, but #1 is actually Abbaticchio.

Well Ted, on your list of 177 possibles Abbott is #1. Mr. Abbaticchio is not on the

list.:p:D

[tedzan]

https://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/frankbmd/t206-bvg/10011/abbott-bl-350

Abbott is #1 -------------alphabetically at least.


Frank, good buddy, you are absolutely correct.

Don't mind me....it's been a long day :)


TED Z
.

[tsalem]

I recently found a Frank Chance portrait yellow Broad Leaf 350 in a collection purchased. It is at PSA right now. Grade should have popped already, still waiting. PSA pop report shows only 1 ever graded.

[Pat R]

Hey Frank

Great looking BROAD LEAF 350 Abbott.....thanks for posting.

Excuse me for correcting you, but #1 is actually Abbaticchio.






Hi Pat
Thanks for posting the BROAD LEAF 350 blue Chase cards.

But, I don't see these two cards listed in the PSA pop report data ? ?



TED Z
.


Hi Ted,

They're in the pop reports maybe it's whatever browser you're using.

318618

[tedzan]

Hi Ted,

They're in the pop reports maybe it's whatever browser you're using.

318618


Hi Pat

Thanks for the current PSA pop report data.

I guess I've been clicking on an old PSA link.

Please email me the PSA link you are using.

tedzan11@comcast.net

Thanks again,


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

rats60

Good looking BROAD LEAF 350 Kruger....thanks for posting it.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Just a friendly bump, showing off another BL 350 of mine. So, let's see some more of your BL 350 cards.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/bt206broadleaf350.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/at206grimshawbl350.jpg


TED Z
.

[Sean]

I don't know why these came out different sizes: :confused:


318670 318671

[Luke]

Beautiful Broad Leafs guys. Love that Mullen!

[tedzan]

Just posting my McGinley in order to pop this to the top of the Net54 page.
And perhaps, we'll have some more members of this forum displaying their
BROAD LEAF 350 cards.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/amcginley.jpg


TED Z
.

[MR RAREBACK]

No front pic

[tedzan]

MR RAREBACK

Can you show the fronts of those nine BROAD LEAF 350 cards ?

Or, at least tell us which T206's these 9 cards are ?

Thanks,


TED Z
.

[MR RAREBACK]

don't know off hand will have to get back to you

[usernamealreadytaken]

A few

[tedzan]

Hey guys

It's important to show the fronts of your BROAD LEAF 350 cards....or, at least tell us which T206 guys are their fronts.

Recall, that we are also interested in finding any of the missing 13 guys that would complete this 190 card run.

Listed here are the missing 13 subjects we are looking to find with BROAD LEAF 350 backs......

Atz
Brashear
Carr
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Easterly
Ferguson
Mathewson (dark cap)
McGann
Pickering
Schlafly
Schmidt (portrait)
Stephens

Well, having said all this....show us some more of your BROAD LEAF 350 cards.

Thanks,

TED Z
.

[Dpoolem3]

Long time reader, first time poster

I'm in no way well versed on the t206 set though I have been collecting it for a few years(monster number around 400 or so) and a little while back I wanted to add more disappointment to my life and began a Tolstoi sub set which I am about 70 cards into.....and one thing I have noticed is out of those 70 cards roughly 50 of them have the ghost image of the Tolstoi back showing on the front of the card, far more rate of occurrence than other backs it's seems and it made me wonder....why?

What was different....did they use a different ink that dried slower? Did the guy that moved the sheets just not care about his job anymore? Was the ink used similar to newspaper ink and possibly a collector stacked them together in a humid area and it led to the ink bleeding onto the card behind it, a wet transfer but in an attic? Am I just imagining this whole thing?

I have noticed I have zero ghost images on any card with a red background.

[tsalem]

3 1 40701092 GOOD 2 1909-11 T206 Broad Leaf 350 Frank Chance Portrait-Yellow

Grade just posted, only the 2nd PSA card graded. Small light spot on back that has paper loss, otherwise looks like 4+

https://image.ibb.co/kmxN9S/rsz_29983013_1772166516159513_3604976150420950448_ o.jpg

[irishdenny]

Long time reader, first time poster

I'm in no way well versed on the t206 set though I have been collecting it for a few years(monster number around 400 or so) and a little while back I wanted to add more disappointment to my life and began a Tolstoi sub set which I am about 70 cards into.....and one thing I have noticed is out of those 70 cards roughly 50 of them have the ghost image of the Tolstoi back showing on the front of the card, far more rate of occurrence than other backs it's seems and it made me wonder....why?

What was different....did they use a different ink that dried slower? Did the guy that moved the sheets just not care about his job anymore? Was the ink used similar to newspaper ink and possibly a collector stacked them together in a humid area and it led to the ink bleeding onto the card behind it, a wet transfer but in an attic? Am I just imagining this whole thing?

I have noticed I have zero ghost images on any card with a red background.

GreetiNs to ya Kind Sir!,

I do believe that is you started a NeW Thread Wit this as a Topic...
"TOLSTOI BLACK INK QUESTION"

or one to your more liking :)
The T206 Gents Will Arise to the Occasion!!!

I do have an Opinion...
Howevar, as they have said ~"When iN Rome"

Good Day to Ya!

[tedzan]

Long time reader, first time poster

I'm in no way well versed on the t206 set though I have been collecting it for a few years(monster number around 400 or so) and a little while back I wanted to add more disappointment to my life and began a Tolstoi sub set which I am about 70 cards into.....and one thing I have noticed is out of those 70 cards roughly 50 of them have the ghost image of the Tolstoi back showing on the front of the card, far more rate of occurrence than other backs it's seems and it made me wonder....why?

What was different....did they use a different ink that dried slower? Did the guy that moved the sheets just not care about his job anymore? Was the ink used similar to newspaper ink and possibly a collector stacked them together in a humid area and it led to the ink bleeding onto the card behind it, a wet transfer but in an attic? Am I just imagining this whole thing?

I have noticed I have zero ghost images on any card with a red background.


Hi Dpoolem3

Welcome to the club.

Stacking these 108 year old cards together in a humid area (attic or otherwise) would not result in the ink bleeding onto the card behind it.

Would you mind listing these 50 cards in your collection that have this wet-ink "Tolstoi" transfer image on their fronts ?

I have an idea of how this occurred and I'm looking for a pattern in these cards that may tell us why.


TED Z
.

[Dpoolem3]

Hi Dpoolem3

Welcome to the club.

Stacking these 108 year old cards together in a humid area (attic or otherwise) would not result in the ink bleeding onto the card behind it.

Would you mind listing these 50 cards in your collection that have this wet-ink "Tolstoi" transfer image on their fronts ?

I have an idea of how this occurred and I'm looking for a pattern in these cards that may tell us why.


TED Z
.


Having a yard sale this morning, as soon as I'm done I will get them out of the safe and post a list of each card and either yes or no in regards to the wst. Realistically it's going to be about half and half probably. I also have 2 Tolstoi's that I bought from separate people that were in the same box at one point because both have a water stain in the exact same area like they were stored upright and water got into whatever they were in and stained both cards(of the same player) in the exact same spot. Be after lunch but I'll have the list posted up by then.

[tsalem]

Just in the door...


https://image.ibb.co/cWURPd/Inkedimg272_LI_50.jpg
https://image.ibb.co/cZ3BPd/rsz_inkedimg273_li.jpg

[tedzan]

Double post.

[tedzan]

Just in the door...


https://image.ibb.co/cWURPd/Inkedimg272_LI_50.jpg
https://image.ibb.co/cZ3BPd/rsz_inkedimg273_li.jpg


Great looking card, Tom. Thanks for posting it.


TED Z
.

[Luke]

Here are most of mine:

[tedzan]

Having a yard sale this morning, as soon as I'm done I will get them out of the safe and post a list of each card and either yes or no in regards to the wst. Realistically it's going to be about half and half probably. I also have 2 Tolstoi's that I bought from separate people that were in the same box at one point because both have a water stain in the exact same area like they were stored upright and water got into whatever they were in and stained both cards(of the same player) in the exact same spot. Be after lunch but I'll have the list posted up by then.


Hi Dpoolem3

When you get a chance, could you provide a list of only the wet-ink "Tolstoi" transfer cards you have.

It's not necessary to list all your Tolstoi cards.


Thanks,

TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Hi Luke

Thanks for posting your BROAD LEAF cards.

I like the Willett....I'm doing an A-B-C-C-D run of his cards.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AB350frameX.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/FDelehantyBROADLEAF350b.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CYCLE350HaydenX.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206ElberfeldDRUMx25b.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpg
Due to their very close affiliation, I refer to these 350 Series T206's as the A-B-C-D connection


Time to switch off to a side-track in order to compare similar printing patterns between the T206 & T205 sets. In the Summer of 1910, American Lithographic (ALC)
introduced a new set of T-brands (AMERICAN BEAUTY, BROAD LEAF, CYCLE, and DRUM). My research shows that ALC printed 190 subjects from the 350 series with
each of these 4 backs. I like the similar stylistic design of these backs, and I refer to this pattern as the "A-B-C-D connection". For more info check-out thread......
T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=90139)


In 1911, when ALC was producing the T205 cards, they repeated the A-B-C-D connection for 32 subjects in this set. More info regarding this, check-out this theory
presented on this forum in a November 2014 thread....... T205 DRUM vs HINDU...... (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=197200&highlight=t205+hindu)


T205 A=B=C=D pattern

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205BergenABbk25x.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BroadLeafLobert25bx.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205CycleHuggins25bxx.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205WolterDRUMx25bx.jpg

The key factor in this A = B = C = D equation is the Black American Beauty back. NOTE that a T205 subject with a Green American Beauty back
will NOT be found with a DRUM back.


T205 A-B-C-D connection.......32 subjects

James Austin
John Bates
Beals Becker
George Bell
William Bergen
Russell Blackburne
Albert Bridwell
Mordecai Brown
Harold Chase (border on shirt)
Frank Corridon
Thomas Downey
Louis Evans
George Graham (blue signature)
Buck Herzog
Richard Hoblitzell
Miller Huggins
Jack Knight
A. Latham
Thomas Leach
John Lobert

Briscoe Lord
Patrick Moran
Frederick Olmstead
George Paskert
Fred Payne
Edward Phelps
John Quinn
Lewis Richie
David Shean
George Stone
Zach Wheat
Harry Wolter

The above 5 subjects in bold letters have yet to be confirmed with the DRUM back. But, they already have been confirmed with the A - B - C backs.
Therefore, I expect these 5 subjects will eventually be discovered with the DRUM back.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205WolterDRUMx50x.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205Drum25xb.jpg


Hey guys,
If perhaps you may have any one of these 5 missing DRUM cards....please by all means chime in here. Especially, if you have Huggins or Lobert.



Furthermore, after completing my 209-card T205 set [including the Hoblitzell (no stats)]......I continued my T205 "hunt" by forming these A-B-C-D sub-sets.
Here is an example of my favorite......


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/ABCDxT205Huggins25x.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/ABCDxT205Huggins25bx.jpg



TED Z
.

[Dpoolem3]

Lake no ball Y
Ball Y
Elberfield Y
J Collins N
H Smith N
Camnitz arm side N
Krause N
Davidson N
Ames hands above head N
Chance yellow N
Cobb red N
Rucker N
Doyle w bat Y
Sheckard glove show Y
McQuillan Y
Devore Y
Magee N
Rucker N
Milan Y
Pelty vertical Y
McGraw glove hip Y
Merkle throwing Y
Bergen catching Y
Shannon N
Manning pitching N
Campell N
O'Leary hands knees Y
Wiltse pitching N
Rudolph N
Pfeffer Y
Overall Y
Needham N
Stovall bat Y
Sheckard N
Ferguson N
Ferguson N
Stahl N
Donlin N
McIntyre N
Street N
Street N
Dygert N
Huggins Y
Pfeffer N
O'Leary knees N
Lord N
Perring Y
Ford N
Geyer Y
Reulbach Y
Ames N

So like I said..I have 20 wst out of my 50 Tolstois...meh close enough for government work.

How does Tolstoi compare to other brands as far as wst's, seem more common with Tolstoi.

[tedzan]

Hi Dpoolem3

Here's the break-down of your YES cards with respect to the series they were printed in.

I was looking for a consistent series pattern to explain your Tolstoi wet ink transfers.
And, there really doesn't appear to be a pattern.

350-only series
-----------------
Huggins
Milan
Perring

350/460 series
-----------------
Doyle w bat Y
Elberfield Y
Lake no ball Y
McQuillan Y
O'Leary hands knees Y
Overall Y (yellow sky) ........ ?
Pelty vertical Y
Reulbach Y

460-only series
-----------------
Ball
Bergen catching Y
Devore Y
Geyer Y
McGraw glove hip Y
Merkle throwing Y
Overall (blue sky) .............. ?
Pfeffer Y
Sheckard glove show Y
Stovall bat Y

By the way, which Overall card do you have listed ? ?


TED Z
.

[Dpoolem3]

Hi Dpoolem3

Here's the break-down of your YES cards with respect to the series they were printed in.

I was looking for a consistent series pattern to explain your Tolstoi wet ink transfers.
And, there really doesn't appear to be a pattern.

350-only series
-----------------
Huggins
Milan
Perring

350/460 series
-----------------
Doyle w bat Y
Elberfield Y
Lake no ball Y
McQuillan Y
O'Leary hands knees Y
Overall Y (yellow sky) ........ ?
Pelty vertical Y
Reulbach Y

460-only series
-----------------
Ball
Bergen catching Y
Devore Y
Geyer Y
McGraw glove hip Y
Merkle throwing Y
Overall (blue sky) .............. ?
Pfeffer Y
Sheckard glove show Y
Stovall bat Y

By the way, which Overall card do you have listed ? ?


TED Z
.

Hands at waist level

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


.. v ................................ 19" x 24" standard size sheet ...................................v
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/Ex12sheet96cards38x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/americanlithographicbldg.jpg
.... Simulated sheet of the T206 "Exclusive 12" subjects in the 460-only series


I refer to the Minor Leaguers as the Exclusive 12 of the T205 set. As is obvious, their front designs differ considerably from the Major League subjects in the T205 set.
These cards were printed at the tail-end of the T205 production run in the Fall/Winter of 1911. This timeline is evident from the bio descriptions on the backs of these
cards. And, they were printed with only two T-brand advertisements on their backs....either HASSAN or POLAR BEAR.

Illustrated here is my concept of a printed sheet of 96 cards which fit on a 19" x 24" standard size cardboard sheet of that era.

T205 Minor Leaguers (12 subjects)

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205adkdunleeneecadfriX.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205mcahanbatmerphecolX.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205adkdunleeneecadfriX.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205mcahanbatmerphecolX.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205adkdunleeneecadfriX.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205mcahanbatmerphecolX.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205adkdunleeneecadfriX.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205mcahanbatmerphecolX.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205adkdunleeneecadfriX.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205mcahanbatmerphecolX.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205adkdunleeneecadfriX.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205mcahanbatmerphecolX.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205adkdunleeneecadfriX.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205mcahanbatmerphecolX.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205adkdunleeneecadfriX.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T205mcahanbatmerphecolX.jpg




TED Z
.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Ted,

That T205 Minor League concept sheet is eye candy for sure man!

[tedzan]

Hi Andy

Love your avatar....brings back memories of the grand ole Ft. Washington Show days when we first met.

If I recall correctly, on the front of the HINDU card is Doc Powers.

Take care,


TED Z
.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Good memory Ted. Wow. You're right about Powers. And I still think you gave me a heck of a deal on that Hindu.

AndyH

[atx840]

Hi Pat

Thanks for posting those horizontal mis-cut T206's.

Many years ago I saw a horizontal mis-cut T206 with the Chance (yellow portrait) adjacent to the red Cobb.


TED Z
.

Only copy I have ever seen of this Ted.

https://i.imgur.com/6Kzjayr.jpg

[tedzan]

Only copy I have ever seen of this Ted.

https://i.imgur.com/6Kzjayr.jpg


That is exactly the mis-cut Chance/Cobb I referred to in Post #398.

Thanks Chris for posting it.

Will we see you at the National in Cleveland ?



TED Z
.

[atx840]

Unfortunately not this year Ted, but I am really hoping for the next one in Chicago. :(

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206EddiePlankSC150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/SOVEREIGN150Johnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CYoungPiedmont150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/amattyab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Sovereign460CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McGrawGloveUZITxSGC30xx.jpg
... Sweet Caporal ..... Sovereign .......... Piedmont____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards__American Beauty ... Sovereign .......... UZIT ..........



This thread will provide references to major contributions posted on Net54 these past 12 years that have formed a better understanding of "The Monster" [as Bill Heitman
so aptly coined his T206 book (circa 1980)].

POST #1......So, we'll start with the 2005-2006 publication of Scot Reader's Inside T206 (http://www.oldcardboard.com/t/t206/insidet206-centennial-edition.pdf)
An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series.

One of the early and very significant T206 threads was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=81906&highlight=epdg)
This thread sparked lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's. It included surveys; and, various aspects of the T206 series were explored.....resulting in 363
meaningful posts. Furthermore, between many of us Net54ers, it was "the start of of a beautiful friendship" (to quote Claude Raines to Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca).

In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start
in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=82317&highlight=super+set)

Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle
"error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=87180)


Subsequent posts in this thread will expand on theory's regarding the structure of the T206 series and the front/back permutations that have resulted. A fair number of the
theory's presented on Net54 (since 2006) have withstood the test of time. Providing accurate lists of which front/back combos were printed. And, which ones are No-Prints.

So, stay tuned......many more T206 "oldies but goodies" References and Reflections will be posted here.

And, feel free to contribute any meaningful T206 stories, or experiences collecting T206's that you have.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________

INDEX (updated)

Post #1......Introduction....plus Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, and 3 significant T206 threads (circa..2006-2007) for starters.


Click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted


Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)

Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816) (apple green cards)

Post #5......350/460 series backs identified (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)

Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)

Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) sub-set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=5)

Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=6)

Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=7)

Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=7)

Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=8)

Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's ! (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=8)

Post #93.....T206 "Proofs" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)

Post #96.....UZIT checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)

Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)

Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)

Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=11)

Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=11)

Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=11)

Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=13)

Posts #128 - 131.....Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=13)

Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=14)

Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=15)

Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=15)

Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=17)

Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=17)

Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=18)

Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=19)

Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=19)

Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=20)

Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=20)

Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=21)

Posts #231 >> 234.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=24)

Posts #242 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=25)

Post #262.....T206 Southern League cards (re-visited) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=27)

Posts #263 >> 270.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=27)

Posts #271 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=28)

Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=29)

Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=31)

Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects...... (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=33)

Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=34)

Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=36)

Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=34)

Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=37)

Post #378.....Remembering Jantz Morey (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=38)

Posts #379 >> 385.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=38)

Posts #386 >> 402.....T206 printed sheet structure (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=39)

Posts #405 >> 440.....Show us your BROAD LEAF 350 cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=41)

Posts #441 >> 451.....Comparable printing patterns of the T206's and T205's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=45)

Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=46)

Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=46)

Posts #469 >> 470.....Guess the selling price of a COMPLETE SOVEREIGN set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=47)

Posts #471 >> 474.....Guess selling price of a near complete PIEDMONT set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=48)

Posts #476 >> 477.....Guess selling price of a complete SWEET CAP, F#30 set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=48)


In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors.
However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s).


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AB350JohnsonCrawfdBaker12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BreitensteinShaughnessyFoster11x.jpg


Searching all the way back to 2001 on Net54, you will find some interesting threads on acquisitions of "near complete" T206 sets. For example, check-out this one..... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=76778 .....What price this set was purchased for back in 2005 is anyone's guess.

Anyway, in 2004, I acquired a 521-card set which also included 32 different T206 backs. Condition of the cards were 80% Ex, 20% Vg-Ex, and the Magie was Vg.

So how much did I pay for this set in 2004 ? Hey guys, I leave it up to you to guess what I paid for this set ? ?

I will tell you the $$$$$ cost after I receive some guesses.


Here's the green Cobb from this set. The majority of the stars were in similar condition as this Cobb (but better centered). Most PIEDMONT 150 green Cobb's are off-center
as this one is.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206greenCobbPiedmont150.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/CobbGreenPiedmont150b.jpg




Stay tuned for the sale price of a T206 "near complete" 521-card set in 1997.


TED Z
.

[brianp-beme]

Wild guess...$18,000

Brian

[Hellwig]

$25,000 just a guess

It’s amazing since I started collecting in Jan of 2017 to now.I use to be able to get nicely graded 3s for high 20s/low $30s with shipping now for the most part it’s 35/40 easy.

It’s disgusting to think what I could have been picking up 10 or 15 years ago instead of what I did.

[riggs336]

I'm gonna say $13,500.
I bought a mid-grade 520 set in 2008 for $16K plus 15% vig.

[RedsFan1941]

So how much did I pay for this set in 2004 ? Hey guys, I leave it up to you to guess what I paid for this set ? ?

I will tell you the $$$$$ cost after I receive some guesses.

....


Stay tuned for the sale price of a T206 "near complete" 521-card set in 1997.




2004 or 1997?

[tedzan]

I have not discussed the 1997 set yet. As I alluded to, it will be in a forthcoming post.

So, why you are asking.... " 2004 or 1997? "


TED Z
.

[fduran27]

Ted - I am going to say $9,503.34

[RedsFan1941]

I have not discussed the 1997 set yet. As I alluded to, it will be in a forthcoming post.

So, why you are asking.... " 2004 or 1997? "


TED Z
.

thanks guy

[Bpm0014]

I've been putting a raw PR-G-VG-EX T206 set together from 2008-present. Currently at 512. Cost me roughly $40,000 so far. I have all 4 Cobbs, the Demmit and O'Hara, 2 signed Larry Doyles, a NY Joe Doyle partial NY, all the Southern Leaguers, etc. The remaining 8 or so are all readily available. I would be willing to bet that if you started today, the cost would be $50,000+

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AB350JohnsonCrawfdBaker12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BreitensteinShaughnessyFoster11x.jpg


Brian....Rob....riggs336....Felipe....Brendan

I appreciate your responses and I will comment on them after I post this set here which I sold in 1997.


I started collecting T206 cards in 1981. And by the 1990's, I had put together a 521-card set. The overall grading of this set was Vg-Ex. The Demmitt and O'Hara were both Vg.
Also a Vg Magie, and it included 5 cards of Ty Cobb....green Cobb, Bat on, Bat off, red Cobb, and an Orange (red) Cobb.

So how much did I sell this set for in 1997 ? Once again, I leave it up to you to guess what this set sold for ? ?

I will reveal the $$$$$ amounts for my purchase in 2004 and this sale in 1997 in a subsequent post. Then we can compare our numbers here.



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/RedCobb460x50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206orangeCobbPinlWillis.jpg



TED Z
.

[Bpm0014]

I will say you sold it for about $22,000

[Hellwig]

I was probably high in my last guess, so I’ll guess you sold this for $12,500 in 1997.

[KingFisk]

2004 - bought for $14,000
1997 - sold for $8,000

[brianp-beme]

1997 sold for $9,000 (I previously guessed 2004 purchase price of $18,000).

Brian

[tedzan]

Purchase price of my T206 set (521 cards) in 2004 guesses.....


Brian
Wild guess...$18,000

Rob
$25,000 just a guess


riggs
I'm gonna say $13,500.
I bought a mid-grade 520 set in 2008 for $16K plus 15% vig.


Felipe
Ted - I am going to say $9,503.34

Brendan
I would be willing to bet that if you started today, the cost would be $50,000+



Here is a sampling of some of some of the cards in this set......

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206JohsonSGC40.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/COBBbatoffOLDMILLx50.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/UZITWiltse50.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/AB460ZachWheat50x.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/MikeDonlinRedHINDUx50.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206ElberfeldDRUM.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/AB460ZachWheat50xb.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/DonlinRedHINDUx50.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206ElberfeldDRUMx25b.jpg



Thanks guys for participating in this game. And, I wish I would have acquired this set in 2004 for any of your guesstimates. This T206 set cost me quite a bit of $$$$$.....$40,000.
Anyhow, the consolation prize was getting the 32 different T-brands.



Stay tuned for the sale of the 1997 set.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Guesses on the SOLD price of my T206 set (521 cards) in 1997.....


Brendan
I will say you sold it for about $22,000

Rob
I was probably high in my last guess, so I’ll guess you sold this for $12,500 in 1997.

Carl
2004 - bought for $14,000
1997 - sold for $8,000

Brian
1997 sold for $9,000 (I previously guessed 2004 purchase price of $18,000).

Brian



Thanks guys for participating in this game. I like Brendan's guess. Unfortunately, I sold 520 cards from this set for $16,000. And, I sold the Magie separately for $2000.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/GreenCobbSovereign12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/JohnsonPitchingSovereign12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/DuffySovereign460x14.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/MattyWCxSweetCap12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChaseRedHINDUx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CobbBatSovereign350x13.jpg
These six are examples of some of my nicer SOVEREIGN cards


OK, let's play this game again.... If I were to sell my complete all-SOVEREIGN set (402 cards), what price would you guess it would sell for ?

This set's overall condition averages Vg-Ex, with some of the stars being Ex.....see examples shown above and below.

Exactly 122 subjects in the basic 524 card T206 set were NOT printed with SOVEREIGN backs (Wagner, Plank, Lundgren, Demmitt, O'Hara,
Magie, Joe Doyle error, the 48 Southern Leaguers, etc.)


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/CobbBatSovereign150.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/SOVEREIGN150JohnsonPSA4.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/asov460chancematty25x.jpg




TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/GreenCobbSovereign12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/JohnsonPitchingSovereign12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/DuffySovereign460x14.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/MattyWCxSweetCap12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChaseRedHINDUx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CobbBatSovereign350x13.jpg
These six T206's are samples of some of my nicer SOVEREIGN cards


I consider that a true complete SOVEREIGN set includes the Six Super Prints **......with the Sovereign 460 backs. Thus, my Sovereign set is actually complete with 408 cards.

During the Sovereign press runs, American Litho (ALC) introduced an intermediate series into the T206 set....the 350/460 series. ALC selected 6 subjects from the 350 series;
and, printed them with Sovereign 460 backs during the press runs of the Sovereign 460-only series.

FYI.... that the Sovereign 460 versions of these 6 subjects are considerably tougher to find relative to the regular 46 subjects in the 460-only series.


So guys, try guessing the selling price of this set with 402 cards......or, with 408 cards ?
Trust me, these 6 super-prints (with the Sovereign 460 back) go for "Big $$$$". Especially the red Cobb, which appears to be much tougher than the other 5 cards.


Shown here are these Six Super Prints with their SOVERIGN 350 backs and their SOVEREIGN 460 backs......

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1911SovereignCobbSGCx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1911SovereignCobbSGCx50b.jpg

. . https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/tedzan77/RedCobb25x.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CobbSovereign350x25b.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/asov460chancematty25x.jpg............http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/everssov460.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/bsov460chancematty25xy.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/beverssov460.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/absov3x4bluechasedk.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/babsov3x4bluechasedkcap_1.jpg



** Note.. Scot Reader's excellent research revealed that these 6 subjects were printed in larger quantities, and with more Tobacco brands than any of the other subjects
in the T206 set. In his book titled "Inside T206", Scot identifies these 6 guys as the " Super-Prints ".



TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChanceDahlenWaddellCYoung12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChaseRedHINDUx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CobbBatSovereign350x13.jpg
Sample star cards in this PIEDMONT set...........


OK, so no one is interested in playing the "guessing game" with the SOVEREIGN set. I can understand that, as the SOVEREIGN set is complicated with all it's No-Prints.

So, how's about trying to guess what price my PIEDMONT set would sell for ? It's straight forward, as all 519 cards (includes MAGIE) in this set have PIEDMONT backs.
No Wagner, Plank, or Joe Doyle NY Nat'l. No Demmitt or O'Hara St Louis variations (printed only with POLAR BEAR backs). This set's condition ranges from Vg to Ex.

I look forward to your guesses....be reasonable with them :)

And, have a great time at the National this week......and, find some time to check-out the Rock-n-Roll Hall of Fame Museum near Lake Erie.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/piedmontpackjohnson.jpg


Sample star cards......
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206greenCobbPiedmont150.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/MattyPIEDMONT460x50.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/LundgrenPiedmont150x12.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/CobbGreenPiedmont150b.jpg..http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/PIEDMONT460%20x50b.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/CYoungPiedmont150b.jpg



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/T206JohnsonS350xP460x50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/P350x460RedCobb50xx.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/T206JohnsonS350xP460x50b.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/P350x460redCobb50x.jpg



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206JohsonSGC40.jpg



TED Z
.

[Bpm0014]

$50,000

[tedzan]

Hi Brendan

Sounds like a reasonable selling price. I like those numbers.

Thanks for posting your guess.


TED
.

[BLongley]

$50,000

I'll go a bit higher... $63,000

[tedzan]

I'll go a bit higher... $63,000


Hi Brian

Your guess is quite reasonable.

Thanks for posting your guess.


TED
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/GreenCobbSovereign12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/MattyWCxSweetCap12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/JohnsonPitchingSovereign12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CYoungPiedmont150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206LajoieBatP350x460x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206MarquardP350x11.jpg


Last, but not least......If I were to sell my "complete" SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set....what do you think it would sell for ?

Actually, a complete SC f#30 set comprises of 469 cards. The following lists the 55 subjects which were never issued with the SC f#30 back............
524 - [Joe Doyle Nat'L, Kleinow (Boston), Lundgren (Cubs), Magie, Smith (Chi & Bos), Demmitt & O'Hara (St Louis vars.), Southern Leaguers (48)] = 469

Now, I consider my set "complete" with 468 cards, because I will never have the Wagner card. The cards in this set range from Vg to Ex.

So, I look forward your guesses as to what I can expect if I sell this set ? ? Please be reasonable with your estimates :)


And, have a great National this week. I hope to see you all in Chicago next year.



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/SweetCapFactory30xNYpackX.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206PlankSC150x30x.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/OLearySC150F30x50b.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/McGrawGloveSweetCapFactory30xx12.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/acobbsweetcap42ovpt.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/FordSCfactory30.jpg


TED
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/GreenCobbSovereign12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/MattyWCxSweetCap12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/JohnsonPitchingSovereign12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CYoungPiedmont150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206LajoieBatP350x460x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206MarquardP350x11.jpg



The majority of the cards in this SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set are in plastic pages in an album. Only about a dozen cards are graded. The cards in this
set range from Vg to Ex....and, of course the Eddie Plank card is graded an "A".

If I were to sell any of my T206 sets, this one would be the set I'd sell. So, come on guys, I'm waiting for some of your guesses on the selling price of this one.


Here's a page from the album displaying some of this set's stars. Followed by back scans of their respective Series......

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/asweetcap30stars.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/bsweetcap30stars.jpg



TED Z
.

[Bpm0014]

$82,000

[tedzan]

WOW !

Brendan, that's some big $$$$$.

Very tempting to sell this set, if I was offered that amount.

Thanks for posting.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206EddiePlankSC150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/SOVEREIGN150Johnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CYoungPiedmont150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McGrawGloveUZITxSGC30xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Sovereign460CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/amattyab350x19x.jpg

... Sweet Caporal ..... Sovereign ......... Piedmont ____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards______ UZIT .............. Sovereign ... American Beauty



This thread will provide references to major contributions posted on Net54 these past 14 years that have formed a better understanding of "The Monster" [as Bill Heitman
so aptly coined his T206 book (circa 1980)].

Let's start with the 2005-2006 publication of Scot Reader's Inside T206 (http://www.oldcardboard.com/t/t206/insidet206-centennial-edition.pdf)
An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series.

One of the early and very significant T206 threads was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=81906&highlight=epdg)
This thread sparked lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's. It included surveys; and, various aspects of the T206 series were explored.....resulting in 363
meaningful posts. Furthermore, between many of us Net54ers, it was "the start of of a beautiful friendship" (to quote Claude Raines to Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca).

In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start
in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=82317&highlight=super+set)

Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle
"error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=87180)


Subsequent posts in this thread will expand on theory's regarding the structure of the T206 series and the front/back permutations that have resulted. A fair number of the
theory's presented on Net54 (since 2006) have withstood the test of time. Providing accurate lists of which front/back combos were printed. And, which ones are No-Prints.

So, stay tuned......many more T206 "oldies but goodies" References and Reflections will be posted here.

And, feel free to contribute any meaningful T206 stories, or experiences collecting T206's that you have.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________

INDEX

Post #1......Introduction....plus Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, and 3 significant T206 threads (circa..2006) for starters.


Click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted


Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)

Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816) (apple green cards)

Post #5......350/460 series backs identified (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)

Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)

Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=1)

Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=1)

Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=1)

Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) sub-set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=1)

Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=1)

Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=1)

Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=1)

Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=1)

Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=1)

Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=1)

Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=2)

Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=2)

Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=2)

Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=2)

Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's ! (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=2)

Post #93.....T206 "Proofs" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=2)

Post #96.....UZIT checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=2)

Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=2)

Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=2)

Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=33)

Posts #128 - 131.....Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=19)

Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=5)

Posts #231 >> 234.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=5)

Posts #242 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=5)

Post #262.....T206 Southern League cards (re-visited) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=6)

Posts #263 >> 270.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=6)

Posts #271 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=6)

Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=6)

Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=7)

Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects...... (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=7)

Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=7)

Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=8)

Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=8)

Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=8)

Post #378.....Remembering Jantz Morey (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=8)

Posts #379 >> 385.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=8)

Posts #386 >> 402.....T206 printed sheet structure (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=8)

Posts #405 >> 440.....Show us your BROAD LEAF 350 cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=9)

Posts #441 >> 450.....Comparable printing patterns in T205's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=9)

Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)

Posts #469 >> 470.....Guess the selling price of a COMPLETE SOVEREIGN set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)

Posts #471 >> 474.....Guess selling price of a near complete PIEDMONT set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)

Posts #476 >> 479.....Guess selling price of a complete SWEET CAP, F#30 set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)

Posts #481 >> 490.....Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)


In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors.
However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s).


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/SOVEREIGN150Johnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CYoungPiedmont150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/LundgrenPiedmont150x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BreitensteinShaughnessyFoster11x.jpg


For 38 years I've been collecting T206's, completing sets, and seeking out rare front/back combos. In this process, I've been quite fortunate in acquiring several T206 "finds".

Before I tell you of my stories....it would be interesting to hear of yours....show and/or tell us of your T206 "finds" ?


TED Z
.

[barrysloate]

Back about 25 years or so ago I bought a modest collection of what appeared to be an original T206 find- maybe it had 200-250 cards- and after I sat down to go through each card carefully discovered two Drum backs sitting adjacent to each other. In the eighties and nineties I bought many original collections, but this is the only one that ever had a Drum, much less two of them.

Ted- I think you bought one of them so I'm guessing you remember both cards. Sadly, I remember neither player.:(

[tedzan]

Hi Barry

I love reminiscing, I do remember the find you are referring to with the two DRUM's. Except, I think it was back in the late 1980's.

Anyhow, I was making great progress on my T206 T-brand collection. And, if I recall correctly, you bet me $100 that I would not acquire a
DRUM card within that year.

BINGO ! A few months after our bet, you picked-up this T206 collection. And, you were gracious enough to give me one of the DRUM cards.
And, here it is......

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/amoellerdrum.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/bmoellerdrum.jpg



Furthermore, check this out....this DRUM card went from Barry >> Ted >> Barry (Arnold).



TED Z
.

[barrysloate]

I remembered the missing corner, but didn't know it was Moeller. Late 80's could be right, making it more like 30 years ago.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/SOVEREIGN150Johnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CYoungPiedmont150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/LundgrenPiedmont150x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BreitensteinShaughnessyFoster11x.jpg



My most major T206 find was very timely. It occurred in early 2006 when I was putting together my all-PIEDMONT set. This find of approx. 400 assorted PIEDMONT cards
was from South Carolina. The owner of these cards got them from his Grandfather, who collected them in his youth from 1909 to mid 1910. This was evident to me, since
there were no PIEDMONT 350-460 series cards in this find. Included in this group were 29 - Southern League cards with OLD MILL backs.
Most of these cards (80 %) graded Vg-Ex. The other 20 % were Ex cards. There were 284 different cards in this group, of which I needed 192....expediting my progress in
completing this all-PIEDMONT set.

Here is a sample of the cards from this find which are still in my PIEDMONT set......

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/Piedmont150series15cds25x.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/Piedmont150series15cds25B.jpg



Barry's story is...."is the stuff that dreams are made of" (quote from Humphrey Bogart in the last scene in the movie "The Maltese Falcon".

So come on guys, I'm sure you have some interesting stories of your "finds" to share with us


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Gee, 24 hours have transpired since I posted my T206 "find" last nite, and I am quite surprised (or perhaps disappointed) that no one has posted their "finds" here.

Whatever, I will continue with another of my T206 "finds". During the 1980's I was lucky to pick-up several "finds" at the Willow Grove Show, all of which consisted
of BOWMAN and TOPPS cards. In the 1990's, I picked up two T-card "finds". A T205 collection of 144 cards. And a T206 collection comprising of 220 different cards.
The T206 collection was from a "walk-in" at the Cooperstown Show. My table was set-up at the entrance to the VFW Hall, and I made a generous offer to the owner
of these T206's. Then I told him to go around to the other dealers and get the best offer. About an hour (or so) later he returned to my table and we made the deal.

The cards varied from Vg to Ex. Some of the major stars in this collection were the red Cobb, all three Cy Young's, all three Matty's, Lajoie portrait, all four Tinker's,
all three Evers's, all three Chance's, all five Chase's, all three Willis's, and both Collins cards. Plus, 24 - Southern Leaguer's.


Once again......how about sharing with us here of your T206 "finds" in this glorious hobby.


TED Z
.

[dbrown]

Back in the early 1980s, I was a 12 or 13 year old and obsessed with cards. My dad got into the hunt, and he would place wanted ads in the local Bay Area penny savers. Had a number of really good finds, and of course it was cheap. Those were the days.

One night we went to visit an older teenager in Atherton or Palo Alto or nearby - fancy neighborhood, fancy house. According to him, his dad was Alan Rosen, and he would give him cards when he saw him. (Divorced.) The kid had a sense of the value of things but was still selling at reasonable prices. What I remember buying - this was a long time ago - was a 1969 Super Reggie Jackson (still a favorite card, it’s so pure) and all four T206 Cobbs, in a nice 4-window plexiglass screw-down holder. We paid him $225 for the four. The green one was a bit rough, some creasing in it, the other 3 were what we would have called excellent back then, or vg-ex+.

Should have kept them, of course. It took a couple years to sell them, finally got $700 or $750 for the four. I might take a run at the Monster if I had kept them.

David

[Rhotchkiss]

Ted, I wish I had a “find” story for you, but unfortunately most of my t206s were “found” at REA, Heritage, LOTG, Goodwin, Mile High, EBay, and I even found a few on Net54’s BST!!

My best acquisition story was getting a tip on a brown old mill, which ultimately led to me driving up to New Jersey with a bag of cash to meet Johnny V on his lunch break and doing a 5-figure deal in a parking lot - bought a great card and met an awesome T206er.

Another acquisition (and disposition and acquisition and disposition) story was getting ahold of a Solly Hofman Drum, which I later traded to Mike S. for his Chance Lenox, only to buy it back from Mike and then later sold back to Mike. In less than a year, Mr Hofman lived in NJ, MD, NJ, MD, and NJ where he currently resides.

[tedzan]

Hi David

Interesting story, thanks for posting it.

And yes, you should have kept the four T206 Cobb's.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Ted, I wish I had a “find” story for you, but unfortunately most of my t206s were “found” at REA, Heritage, LOTG, Goodwin, Mile High, EBay, and I even found a few on Net54’s BST!!

My best acquisition story was getting a tip on a brown old mill, which ultimately led to me driving up to New Jersey with a bag of cash to meet Johnny V on his lunch break and doing a 5-figure deal in a parking lot - bought a great card and met an awesome T206er.

Another acquisition (and disposition and acquisition and disposition) story was getting ahold of a Solly Hofman Drum, which I later traded to Mike S. for his Chance Lenox, only to buy it back from Mike and then later sold back to Mike. In less than a year, Mr Hofman lived in NJ, MD, NJ, MD, and NJ where he currently resides.


Nice going good buddy. And, Johnny V is one great guy.

You probably have all the various T206 backs by now ?

I gave you a nice deal on this one at the Philly Show.....


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/



TED Z
.

[Rhotchkiss]

Hola Ted. I do have all the T206 backs, at this point just trying to upgrade. But my Red Hindu is an Evers yellow sky, I never owned that red hindu; but I look forward to getting a good a deal at the next philly show for sure!!!

[tedzan]

At that Philly Show there was a guy who resembled you, and I did sell the red HINDU Pfeffer to him.
Excuse me, I had a "senior moment" :)

Look forward to seeing you and talkin' T206's again next month at the Philly Show.


TED Z
.

[Rhotchkiss]

No worries! I have been mistaken for others before! Catch up soon.

[t206kid]

You sold me the Pfeffer Ted. Still love it

[tedzan]

Hey Jay

Don't mind me, at my age, you can expect a miscue (or two) :)

TED Z

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * T206 Reference....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * *


. . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/LundgrenPiedmont150x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/SOVEREIGN150Johnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CYoungPiedmont150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BreitensteinShaughnessyFoster11x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpg


In 2008, I acquired quite a number of T206's from an Antique dealer in Atlanta. These cards were from an original collection in a town nearby Atlanta. This collection was strictly
PIEDMONT cards; and, I was pleasantly surprised to find 7 of the "Elite 11" cards in this group.

Subsequently, another original collection of T206's was discovered in the Atlanta area by a friend of mine. And, this collection also included the "Elite 11" cards (6 or 7 of them).

And very recently, Turner reported of another T206 find consisting of the "Elite 11" cards. This marks the 4th discovery in the surrounding area of Atlanta of an original collection
of T206's that included these very rare PIEDMONT 350 cards.


Elite 11....plus Lundgren
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/Elite12DahlenLindaman12x.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/Elite12LundgrenSchulte25x.jpg


Initially, I was fascinated by the Lundgren (Cubs) card which I discovered with a seldom seen PIEDMONT 350 back. I have been tracking these rare T206's since 2006.
In the process of putting together a PIEDMONT-only set, I discovered some more rare PIEDMONT 350 cards and this led me to post this thread.... check-it-out http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=87180 for more info. on the "Elite 11".

It appears that Factory #25 shipped PIEDMONT cigarette packs containing 1st print run PIEDMONT 350 cards to Georgia. I say this because some Joe Doyle Nat'l cards
have also been discovered in T206 collections originating in the nearby area of Atlanta, Georgia. The best example of this being Senator Richard Russell's original T206
collection. It's the first known source of the "Elite 11" cards. His set includes the Joe Doyle Nat'l card. Russell grew up in Winder, Georgia (nearby Atlanta). He collected
Tobacco cards as a teenager during 1909 - 1910.


Note
Although Lundgren was not printed with HINDU, SOVEREIGN, nor SWEET CAPORAL, this card is very similar to the "Elite 11" with respect to the initial 350 press runs
of PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG backs. Therefore, I have included Lundgren in with this group.


Hey guys,
I'm not the only guy on this forum who's been fortunate to acquire T206 "finds"....so, how's about sharing your "finds" with the rest of us.


TED Z
.

[Bpm0014]

Would love to hear about some finds!

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206EddiePlankSC150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/SOVEREIGN150Johnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CYoungPiedmont150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/amattyab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Sovereign460CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McGrawGloveUZITxSGC30xx.jpg
.... Sweet Caporal .... Sovereign .......... Piedmont____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards__American Beauty ... Sovereign .......... UZIT



This thread will provide references to major contributions posted on Net54 these past 14 years that have formed a better understanding of "The Monster" [as Bill Heitman
so aptly coined his T206 book (circa 1980)].

Let's start with the 2005-2006 publication of Scot Reader's Inside T206 (http://www.oldcardboard.com/t/t206/insidet206-centennial-edition.pdf)
An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series.

One of the early and very significant T206 threads was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=81906&highlight=epdg)
This thread sparked lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's. It included surveys; and, various aspects of the T206 series were explored.....resulting in 363
meaningful posts. Furthermore, between many of us Net54ers, it was "the start of of a beautiful friendship" (to quote Claude Raines to Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca).

In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start
in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=82317&highlight=super+set)

Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle
"error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=87180)


Subsequent posts in this thread will expand on theory's regarding the structure of the T206 series and the front/back permutations that have resulted. A fair number of the
theory's presented on Net54 (since 2006) have withstood the test of time. Providing accurate lists of which front/back combos were printed. And, which ones are No-Prints.

So, stay tuned......many more T206 "oldies but goodies" References and Reflections will be posted here.

And, feel free to contribute any meaningful T206 stories, or experiences collecting T206's that you have.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________

INDEX

Post #1......Introduction....plus Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, and 3 significant T206 threads (circa..2006) for starters.


Click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted


Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)

Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816) (apple green cards)

Post #5......350/460 series backs identified (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)

Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)

Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) sub-set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)

Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)

Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=5)

Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=6)

Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=7)

Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=7)

Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=8)

Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's ! (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=8)

Post #93.....T206 "Proofs" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)

Post #96.....UZIT checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)

Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)

Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)

Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=11)

Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=11)

Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=11)

Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=13)

Posts #128 - 131.....Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=13)

Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=14)

Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=15)

Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=15)

Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=17)

Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=17)

Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=18)

Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=19)

Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=19)

Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=20)

Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=20)

Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=21)

Posts #231 >> 234.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=24)

Posts #242 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=25)

Post #262.....T206 Southern League cards (re-visited) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=27)

Posts #263 >> 270.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=27)

Posts #271 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=28)

Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=29)

Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=31)

Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects...... (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=33)

Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=34)

Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=36)

Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=34)

Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=37)

Post #378.....Remembering Jantz Morey (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=38)

Posts #379 >> 385.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=38)

Posts #386 >> 402.....T206 printed sheet structure (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=39)

Posts #405 >> 440.....Show us your BROAD LEAF 350 cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=41)

Posts #441 >> 450.....Comparable printing patterns in T205's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=45)

Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=46)

Posts #469 >> 470.....Guess the selling price of a COMPLETE SOVEREIGN set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=47)

Posts #471 >> 474.....Guess selling price of a near complete PIEDMONT set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=48)

Posts #476 >> 479.....Guess selling price of a complete SWEET CAP, F#30 set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=48)

Posts #481 >> 514.....Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=49)


In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors.
However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s).


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/UZITHerzogSGC45x25.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McGrawGloveUZITbk.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McGrawGloveUZITx.jpg


1st Tale......
My old-time friend, Ralph, discovered the Herzog UZIT in a collection he acquired (circa 1990's) in his hometown in the Great Smoky Mountain area of North Carolina.
He knew what kind of a "nut" I am about T206's with scarce backs, so we did a nice trade. But, he did not know how scarce this Herzog card was, until I subsequently
informed him that it was the only known Herzog with a UZIT back. So we arrived at an additional cash amount (to him) to complete the deal. As of this date, this card
remains unique.


2nd Tale...…
About two years ago, I acquired a T206 collection from an long-time collector who attended Philly area shows (circa 1970's). He had acquired a small T206 collection at
the Philly Show which included this McGraw / UZIT card.
The McGraw (glove) card is in the "Exclusive 12" group of the 460-only series. So far, only 5 of these 12 subjects have been found with the UZIT back. And each one of
these 5 subjects are unique T206 UZIT cards. This front / back combo is extremely scarce with the Exclusive 12 group.


T206's with the UZIT back were issued in the Spring of 1911. The UZIT and AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 cards were printed together at the tail-end of the T206 press runs.

It's my opinion that the UZIT back is 2nd to the BROAD LEAF 460 in terms of scarcity (normally printed T206 T-brands).


58 subjects with the UZIT back have been confirmed to date (Sept 7, 2018).

350/460 series...............................28 subjects

Berger
Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball-St Louis)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)

Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Doc White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)

I am 100% confident that the above list of 28 of the 350/460 subjects is complete (as it coincides with the confirmed list of AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 subjects for
the 350/460 series).


460-only series..............................30 subjects

Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Howie Camnitz (arms up)
Harry Camnitz (arms side)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap) **
Frill
Geyer **
Herzog (Boston)
Hummel **
Lake (ball-St Louis)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip) **
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)

Oldring (bat)
Overall (blue sky)
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Schulte (back view)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove) **
Tinker (bat on)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

** Exclusive 12


The 460-only series list is still a work in progress....I expect that as many as 16 more UZIT cards from this series will eventually be discovered.



TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Double post due to power failure.