View Full Version : T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia
tedzan
04-03-2017, 03:55 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE...Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206EddiePlankSC150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/SOVEREIGN150Johnson25xx.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/amattyab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CYoungPiedmont150x12xxx.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/tedzan77/Cobb1910COUPON.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McGrawGloveUZITxSGC30xx.jpg
.... Sweet Caporal ..... Sovereign ... American Beauty__The "House" that created these Tobacco cards___PIEDMONT ........ COUPON .....….... UZIT
This thread will provide references to major contributions posted on Net54 these past 14 years that have formed a better understanding of "The Monster" [as Bill Heitman
so aptly coined his T206 book (circa 1980)].
Let's start with the 2005-2006 publication of Scot Reader's Inside T206 (http://www.oldcardboard.com/t/t206/insidet206-centennial-edition.pdf)
An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series.
One of the early and very significant T206 threads was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=81906&highlight=epdg)
This thread sparked lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's. It included surveys; and, various aspects of the T206 series were explored.....resulting in 363
meaningful posts. Furthermore, between many of us Net54ers, this thread was...."the beginning of a beautiful friendship" (to quote Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca).
In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start
in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=82317&highlight=super+set)
Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle
"error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=87180)
Subsequent posts in this thread will expand on theory's regarding the structure of the T206 series and the front/back permutations that have resulted. A fair number of the
theory's presented on Net54 (since 2006) have withstood the test of time. Providing accurate lists of which front/back combos were printed. And, which ones are No-Prints.
So, stay tuned......many more T206 "oldies but goodies" References and Reflections will be posted here.
And, feel free to contribute any meaningful T206 stories, or experiences collecting T206's that you have.
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INDEX
Set your user settings to display 50 posts per Page. Then click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted.
Post #1......Introduction....plus Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, and 3 significant T206 threads (circa..2006) for starters.
Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816) (apple green cards)
Post #5......350/460 series backs identified (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=1)
Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=1)
Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=1)
Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) sub-set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=1)
Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=1)
Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=1)
Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=1)
Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=1)
Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=1)
Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=1)
Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=2)
Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=2)
Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=2)
Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=2)
Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's ! (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=2)
Post #93.....T206 "Proofs" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=2)
Post #96.....UZIT checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=2)
Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=2)
Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=2)
Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)
Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)
Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)
Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)
Posts #128 - 131.....Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)
Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)
Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)
Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=3)
Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)
Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)
Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)
Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)
Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)
Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)
Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=4)
Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=5)
Posts #231 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=5)
Posts #263 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=6)
Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=6)
Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=7)
Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects...... (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=7)
Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=7)
Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=8)
Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=8)
Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=8)
Post #378.....Remembering Jantz Morey (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=8)
Posts #379 >> 385.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=8)
Posts #386 >> 402.....T206 printed sheet structure (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=8)
Posts #405 >> 440.....Show us your BROAD LEAF 350 cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=9)
Posts #441 >> 450.....Comparable printing patterns of the T206's and T205's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=9)
Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)
Posts #469 >> 470.....Guess the selling price of a COMPLETE SOVEREIGN set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)
Posts #471 >> 474.....Guess selling price of a near complete PIEDMONT set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)
Posts #476 >> 479.....Guess selling price of a complete SWEET CAP, F#30 set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)
Posts #481 >> 515.....Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=10)
Posts #516 >> 536....."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=11)
Posts #537 >> 551.....Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis cards exist ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=11)
Posts #553 >> 554.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=12)
Posts #561 >> 570.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=12)
Posts #571 >> 572.....FYI: 350 Series Minor Leaguer's checklist and trivia (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=12)
Posts #573 >> 573.....T206 Southern League cards illustrated (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=12)
Posts #574 >> 579.....T206 "Monster" obsession ? ....Check-out this one ! (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=12)
Posts #580 >> 597.....Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=12)
Posts #598 >> 600.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=12)
Posts #601 >> 603.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=13)
Posts #605 >> 621.....the TOLSTOI story (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=13)
Posts #622 >> 623.....Meet me at Philly, we can Talk T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=13)
Posts #624 >> 635.....CYCLE 460 checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=13)
Posts #636 >> 650.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=13)
Posts #651 >> 664.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=14)
Posts #665 >> 669.....UPGRADING T206 cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=14)
Posts #671 >> 674.....And then, there are times to down-grade your T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=14)
Posts #675 >> 692.....Black LENOX checklist (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=14)
Posts #693 >> 697.....Check-out Jamie B's multi-brand T206 card (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=14)
Posts #698 >> 700.....Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=14)
Posts #701 >> 713.....Reprising the Ty Cobb / TY COBB card debate (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=15)
Posts #714 >> 726.....CYCLE 350 checklist..... where have all the CYCLE 350 cards gone ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=15)
Posts #727 >> 741.....the enigmatic Lajoie (with bat)..... Post your inputs and/or cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=15)
Posts #742 >> 750.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=15)
Posts #751 >> 760.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=16)
Posts #761 >> 800.....How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=16)
Posts #801 >> 823.....How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=17)
Posts #824 >> 832.....Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=17)
Posts #833 >> 850.....T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=17)
Posts #851 >> 853.....T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=18)
Posts #854 >> 883.....What backs are your favorite(s), and do you collect runs of them ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=18)
Posts #884 >> 900.....Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=18)
Posts #901 >> 916.....Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=19)
Posts #917 >> 944.....MISSION (99%) ACCOMPLISHED American Beauty 460 run. Show your favorite run (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=19)
Posts #945 >> 950.....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=19)
Posts #951 >> 961.....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=20)
Posts #962 >> 984.....Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards (Re-visited) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=20)
Posts #985 >> 1000....... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=20)
Posts #1001 >> 1002..... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=21)
Posts #1004 >> 1034.....Reminiscing about your 1st BB card Show where you acquired T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=21)
Posts #1035 >> 1050.....Show T206's with same name on top or different player's name on top (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=21)
Posts #1051 >> 1066.....Show T206's with same name on top or different player's name on top (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=22)
Posts #1068 >> 1070.....Imagine the T206 guys come alive, great read about the 1904 season (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=22)
Posts #1071 >> 1086....."pet peeves" regarding certain T206's...and tell us of your's ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=22)
Posts #1087 >> 1100.....Unique Antique CAR(ds).....Show us your "One of a Kind" T206(s) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=22)
Posts #1101 >> 1150.....Unique Antique CAR(ds).....Show us your "One of a Kind" T206(s) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=23)
Posts #1151 >> 1160.....Unique Antique CAR(ds).....Show us your "One of a Kind" T206(s) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=24)
Posts #1161 >> 1193.....ATC's "signature" white-border T-card. Post your favorite Red Cobb (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=24)
Posts #1194 >> 1198.....Questionable action poses on certain T206's. Show us a questionable pose (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=24)
Posts #1199 >> 1200....."You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=24)
Posts #1201 >> 1207....."You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=25)
Posts #1208 >> 1213.....Revisiting the 150-only Series.....and, let's see your cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=25)
Posts #1214 >> 1225.....The "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card survey (Updated) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=25)
Posts #1226 >> 1237.....The "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card and related subjects (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=25)
Posts #1238 >> 1250....."fat" AMERICAN BEAUTY cards....If you have any, let's see them (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=25)
Posts #1251 >> 1262....."fat" AMERICAN BEAUTY cards....If you have any, let's see them (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=26)
Posts #1263 >> 1281.....T206-like T209 (CONTENTNEA) 1st series....show us your T209 cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=26)
Posts #1283 >> 1294.....TRIVIA....Iffy call cost Team the Pennant. Who's the T206 player involved ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=26)
Posts #1295 >> 1300.....Interesting similarities between T206 Doyle Nat'L and T207 Hoff (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=26)
Posts #1301 >> 1302.....Interesting similarities between T206 Doyle Nat'L and T207 Hoff (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=27)
Post #1303....................INDEX (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=27)
Posts #1305 >> 1310.....Interesting similarities between T206 Doyle Nat'L and T207 Hoff (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=27)
Posts #1311 >> 1314.......... THREAD HI-JACKED .....
(http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=27)
Posts #1316 >> 1318.......... THREAD HI-JACKED .....
(http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=27)
Posts #1328 >> 1332.......... THREAD HI-JACKED .....
(http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=27)
Posts #1335 >> 1341.......... THREAD HI-JACKED .....
(http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=27)
Posts #1342 >> 1350.....Can't afford the orange Wagner, then the blue Wagner will do (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=27)
Posts #1351 >> 1373.....Can't afford the orange Wagner, then the blue Wagner will do (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=28)
Posts #1374 >> 1376.....Interesting association of AB350 (no-frame) T206's and AB460 T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=28)
Posts #1377 >> 1398.....Fun run....PIEDMONT 350-460 Fact 25....Give it the old college try (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=28)
Posts #1399 >> 1400.....TRIVIA....Pitcher, Reliever, Infielder & good hitter. Name this T206 guy ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=28)
Posts #1401 >> 1402.....TRIVIA....Pitcher, Reliever, Infielder & good hitter. Name this T206 guy ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=29)
Post #1403....................INDEX (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=29)
Posts #1412 >> 1434.....To Grade, or not to Grade....that is the Question regarding T206 set(s) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=29)
Posts #1435 >> 1450.....Anti-tobacco guys....Connie Mack and Eddie Plank (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=29)
Posts #1451 >> 1459.....Anti-tobacco guys....Connie Mack and Eddie Plank (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=30)
Posts #1460 >> 1472.....Stamps, BB cards, old Cars, which of them did you collect 1st ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=30)
Posts #1476 >> 1500.....Re-visiting PIEDMONT 460 Fac. #42 cards....are there any more than 72 of them ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=30)
Posts #1501 >> 1537.....Re-visiting PIEDMONT 460 Fac. #42 cards....are there any more than 72 of them ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=31)
Posts #1538 >> 1550.....TRIVIA.....the NAME's the SAME..a T206 guy's name "coincides" with 1950's TOPPS guy (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=31)
Posts #1551 >> 1570.....TRIVIA.....the NAME's the SAME..a T206 guy's name "coincides" with 1950's TOPPS guy (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=32)
Posts #1571 >> 1578.....T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816&page=32)
In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors.
However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s).
TED Z
.
tedzan
04-03-2017, 04:01 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AB350JohnsonCrawfdBaker12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AB350JennBendWillis12x.jpg
Nov 2006, Barry Sloate informed me that he had acquired a T206 collection including 300 cards with Sovereign backs. These cards would be in his November auction. I won
262 of these cards (including 38 HOFers). Having 60 - Sovereign cards to start with, I was determined to complete this set. I do not need the "Big 6", nor Lundgren, nor the
Southern Leaguers (48 cards), I thought this project would be easy. However, early in this game I realized that the big challenge would be to figure out which subjects were
Not Printed with Sovereign backs.
By the Fall of 2007, I had completed this Sovereign set....and, I was confident that I had figured out which T206's were not printed with Sovereign backs. And, I am happy
to say that my list of No-Prints have withstood the test of time.
A complete SOVEREIGN-only set comprises of 402 different subjects. And, if you are really "gung ho"....go for a master SOVEREIGN set comprising of 476 cards.
During the Sovereign press runs, American Litho (ALC) introduced a new feature into the T206's....the 350/460 series. ALC selected from the 350-only series 6 subjects **.
And, printed them with Sovereign 460 backs during the printing of the 460-only series (46 subjects).
Note that the Sovereign 460 versions of these 6 subjects are considerably tougher to find relative to the regular 46 subjects in the 460-only series.
Shown here are the Six Super-Prints with their SOVEREIGN 350 backs and their SOVEREIGN 460 backs......
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1911SovereignCobbSGCx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1911SovereignCobbSGCx50b.jpg
https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/tedzan77/RedCobb25x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CobbSovereign350x25b.jpg ------- https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/EversSovereign350x25bk.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/EversSovereign350x25xx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/asov460chancematty25x.jpg............http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/everssov460.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/bsov460chancematty25xy.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/beverssov460.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/absov3x4bluechasedk.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/babsov3x4bluechasedkcap_1.jpg
The 350/460 story continues in the following post with a complete array display of the 66 subjects (with Sovereign 350 backs) which ALC designated for the 350/460 series.
** Note.. Scot Reader's excellent research revealed that these 6 subjects were printed in larger quantities, and with more Tobacco brands than any of the other subjects in
the T206 set. In his book titled "Inside T206", Scot identifies these 6 guys as the " Super-Prints ".
TED Z
.
This thread has become historic on our forum over time. Nicely done, Ted. Thanks for sharing!!
tedzan
04-04-2017, 06:28 PM
* * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/GreenCobbSovereign12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/JohnsonPitchingSovereign12x.jpg<<http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpg>>http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/MattyWCxSweetCap12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CobbBatSovereign350x13.jpg
Continuing from post #2, illustrated here are the 66 subjects that American Lithographic selected for the 350/460 series. American Litho printed
the backs of these 66 cards using an apple green colored ink (instead of the deep green seen on the backs of all the other SOVEREIGN cards).
For more info on this topic, check-out this thread posted in 2009....Sovereign phantom "350/460" series (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=116576)
Here is my concept of a 72-card sheet arrangement of these 66 subjects (Super-Prints are double-printed **) http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/MattySovereign350x25bx.jpg
v.................................... Six super-prints ....................................v
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AT206superprints9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AmeBakBenCobConDav9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AT206superprints9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BurDonDooJDoyLDoyElb9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BerBraBroCraDouDow9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/GrifJennJenJosLajLak9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ManJohnMagMcQMurpNich9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/KleJorKonLeaMcInMul9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/LeifOLeOvePelPfeReul9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/RhoSmitRucSeySnoSta9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/WagWilSweStrCYoSte9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/WilhTinWillWilWillWhi9x.jpg
The next two posts will get more into the "nitty-gritty" of this mystifying 350/460 series......especially regarding their front/back combos.
** Note
I show the super-prints Double-Printed (D-P) on this sheet, since several large T206 surveys have indicated that the 6 super-prints were D-P.
TED Z
.
tedzan
04-05-2017, 09:59 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/JohnsonPitchingSovereign12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Sovereign460CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/amattyab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChaseRedHINDUx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AB460JenningsSGC60x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CobbBatSovereign350x13.jpg
350/460 series subjects
A picture is worth 1000 words......so, here are the 22 tobacco advertisement backs that are available on the T206 Subjects in the 350/460 Series......
460-type backs
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/10cardCollage460series25xx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChaseP460factory42b.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206xLENOXx37_1.jpg
............. Factory #42 .............
350-type backs
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206ElberfeldDRUMx25b_1.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/ABxPDxSOVxSCxSC350x25.jpg
Assorted backs
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/EPDGxOMxPBxTolstoi25x.jpg
Stay tuned for the "rhyme-n-reason" of the mutually-exclusive front/back combos found with the 460-type backs in this 350/460 series.
TED Z
.
tedzan
04-06-2017, 12:41 PM
Nicely done, Ted. Thanks for sharing!!
Thanks, I really appreciate your compliments, Leon.
TED Z
.
ullmandds
04-06-2017, 01:55 PM
Very cool Ted...It's awesome to see so many of your t's in a bunch! This is the best I can do for now...a few odd remaining t's!
tedzan
04-06-2017, 09:24 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/JohnsonPitchingSovereign12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Sovereign460CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/amattyab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChaseRedHINDUx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AB460JenningsSGC60x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CobbBatSovereign350x13.jpg
350/460 series subjects
Now, continuing our study of the 63 subjects in the 350/460 series.....although 22 T-brands were illustrated in the previous post, not all the 63 subjects were printed
with the rare AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, BROAD LEAF 460, Red HINDU, and UZIT backs.
A theory was first presented in a thread posted April 2010 which hypothesized that the AB 460 and UZIT cards were printed as pairs. Also, BL 460 and red HINDU cards
were printed as pairs. Furthermore, these two sets of pairs are mutually exclusive. Refer to.... 350/460 mutually-exclusive cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=122474&page=1) ....post #14.
I've constructed the following scans of the 350/460 series subjects in order to illustrate how the mutually-exclusive 460-type (rare) backs in this series resulted from
American Lithographic separating these 63 subjects into two print groups.
Group A of the 350/460 series includes 35 subjects printed and issued with these four 460-type backs (circa..late 1910 > early 1911).
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/MurphySweetCap460x25.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/FordSweetCap460x42.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/rh.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/broadleaf460back.jpg
Factory #25 VA ......................... Factory#42 N.C.
Conversely, these 35 subjects were NOT PRINTED with.... AMERICAN BEAUTY 460....UZIT
Group A
.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AmesKonet21cards25xx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/MageeYoung14cards14x.jpg
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Group B
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BergMann14cards13x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McQuiWiltse14cards13x.jpg
Group B of the 350/460 series includes 28 subjects printed and issued with these two 460-type backs (circa..Feb-Mar 1911).
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AmericanBeauty460b34.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McGrawGloveUZITxb.jpg
Conversely, these 28 subjects were NOT PRINTED with.. SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 25.. SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42.. red HINDU.. BROAD LEAF 460
Refer to post #5 in this thread which displays a T206 collection of 33 different "scrap subjects" coinciding with the cards of Group A shown above......
....why certain T-brands are mutually-exclusive (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=220948)
Stay tuned for the next Reference or Reflections. New topic....I'll surprise you ?
TED Z
.
tedzan
04-07-2017, 06:08 PM
Very cool Ted...It's awesome to see so many of your t's in a bunch! This is the best I can do for now...a few odd remaining t's!
Hey Pete
Thanks for the "awesome"....it's one of my favorite adjectives.
Judging from your scan, we both collect similar pieces of colorful cardboard (besides BB cards).
Take care......hope to see you at the National this summer.
TED Z
.
sreader3
04-08-2017, 06:08 PM
Good stuff Ted. Here's a snippet from one of my favorite T206 discovery threads. It was a 2008 thread--started by you--where what I call the "southern league paradox" was resolved collectively by the Net54 research community. Jamie Hull was a major contributor.
Scot
http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1229117871/3/Why+the+scarcity+of+certain+T206+Southern+Leaguers +-
I'll link a few more of my favorite T206 discovery threads later.
sreader3
04-08-2017, 07:16 PM
Ted,
Here is another gem where the 350/460 back profile was fleshed-out.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=220948&page=4
I think this thread is groundbreaking in describing the back profile for each and every subject in the 350/460 RP group, the superprint group and the 460-only group.
Scot
tedzan
04-09-2017, 09:04 AM
Good stuff Ted. Here's a snippet from one of my favorite T206 discovery threads. It was a 2008 thread--started by you--where what I call the "southern league paradox" was resolved collectively by the Net54 research community. Jamie Hull was a major contributor.
Scot
http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1229117871/3/Why+the+scarcity+of+certain+T206+Southern+Leaguers +-
I'll link a few more of my favorite T206 discovery threads later.
Hi Scot
That thread was very informative. Thanks for referencing it.
And, I do miss Jamie Hull, he would chime in with some very meaningful info regarding T206's.
TED Z
.
sreader3
04-09-2017, 10:00 AM
Hi Ted,
I would be remiss if I failed to mention my "Possible Heitman Errors" thread from February 2005 where I was taken to task by the late Joe P. for daring to question "The Monster" checklist, which at the time was regarded as gospel by some.
[I think this was the first public "outing" of Ames (Hands at Chest) and Doyle (Throwing) as potential 150-onlys and Abbaticchio (Blue Sleeves), Latham, Overall (Hands at Waist), Schaefer (Washington) and Tannehill (No "L") as potential 460-onlys--hard to believe that this has only been public information for 12 years since it is is now so commonly accepted].
http://t.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=76172
Have to chuckle now about Joe P.'s blowback. I'll always be grateful to the Net54 guys who came to my defense (including Brian Weisner, Joshua Levine, Rhett Yeakley and the late, great Jim Blumenthal) even though I was a newbie. And even Joe P. eventually came around.
Scot
sreader3
04-09-2017, 11:38 AM
Hi Ted,
Also have to cite the Net54 "Elite" surveys you spearheaded in 2007-2008 confirming that certain 150/350 guys were only available in the 350 series with the Piedmont 350 back. Those were classic.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1206061155/2/T206+%26quot%3BElite+Eleven%26quot%3B....their+var ious+backs+%26amp%3B++SURVEY
Scot
sreader3
04-09-2017, 12:21 PM
TedZ wrote:
** Note.. Scot Reader's excellent research revealed that these 6 subjects were printed in larger quantities, and with more Tobacco brands than any of the other subjects in the T206 set. In his book titled "Inside T206", Scot identifies these 6 guys as the " Super-Prints ".
Lastly, Ted, thanks for this acknowledgement. The existence of the six "superprints" was probably the most interesting of the discoveries revealed in my first (2006) version of Inside T206.
tedzan
04-10-2017, 09:30 AM
Hi Scot
Joe P. was quite a character, here's my story. In the early 1980's, I published several articles in Bob Lemke's BASEBALL CARDS magazine regarding 1948 - 1953 BOWMAN BB & FB
sets. There were variations and certain printing anomalies regarding cards in these sets that were not well understood in the hobby back then....and, I clarified them.
Joe P. was a serious collector of these sets, and when he read my articles, he thought I was a "genius". We met at the 1984 National in New Jersey. He was such a friendly guy who
could talk about the various aspects of sports cards for hours.
Twenty years later when I joined the Net54 forum, and began posting my collecting experiences and ideas regarding the T206 set, Joe turned against me by telling me that "I didn't
know what I was talking about". When I posted some of my early theory's (or surveys), Joe would respond with negative comments. If I did not respond to his posted comments, he
would then call me at home and tell me in no uncertain terms that I was wrong. And, there was no way that I could converse with him in a meaningful manner.
Joe had a good life, in the Military, Airlines, and as an Actor. I like to think of Joe when we first met in the 1980's. And, then again in the 1990's at Sotheby's (when they conducted
the auction that sold the "Gretzky Wagner").
TED Z
.
parkerj33
04-10-2017, 11:01 AM
Ted,
Confused...i post #2 you say "ALC selected from the 350-only series 6 subjects.."
then in post #4 you state there are "66" subjects in 350/460 series...then further on in post #8 you mention "63" subjects. maybe i am misreading subtle differences in each context?
Good stuff, thanks for compiling in one thread.
jim
tedzan
04-10-2017, 11:29 AM
Ted,
Confused...i post #2 you say "ALC selected from the 350-only series 6 subjects.."
then in post #4 you state there are "66" subjects in 350/460 series...then further on in post #8 you mention "63" subjects. maybe i am misreading subtle differences in each context?
Good stuff, thanks for compiling in one thread.
jim
Hi Jim
The array of 66 subjects (in post #4) includes Joe Doyle, Simon Nicholls, and Bob Rhoades (who initially were intended to be continued into the 350/460 series).
However, the Major League careers of these 3 guys ended prior to American Litho printing the 460-type backs. Thus, the 350/460 series consists of 63 subjects.
TED Z
.
parkerj33
04-10-2017, 11:33 AM
understood now...so the "6" in post #2 is a typo and should be "66" selected by ALC for 350/460, and then later 3 were not printed in the 460....
tedzan
04-10-2017, 01:28 PM
understood now...so the "6" in post #2 is a typo and should be "66" selected by ALC for 350/460, and then later 3 were not printed in the 460....
In post #2......I introduce the 6 super-prints....then in post #4, I illustrate the 66 subjects that were intially selected to be included in the 350/460 series.
These 66 guys are composed of the 6 super-prints and 60 additional subjects.
But, as I have said, 3 of the 60 additional subjects were not printed because their Major League BB careers had ended. Therefore, the resulting 350/460
series comprises of the 6 super-prints and 57 other subjects
v.................................... Six super-prints ....................................v
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AT206superprints9x.jpg
V
V
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AT206superprints9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AmeBakBenCobConDav9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AT206superprints9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BurDonDooJDoyLDoyElb9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BerBraBroCraDouDow9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/GrifJennJenJosLajLak9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ManJohnMagMcQMurpNich9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/KleJorKonLeaMcInMul9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/LeifOLeOvePelPfeReul9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/RhoSmitRucSeySnoSta9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/WagWilSweStrCYoSte9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/WilhTinWillWilWillWhi9x.jpg
TED Z
.
sreader3
04-10-2017, 05:47 PM
Ted,
Great story. Joe was a character. We had some good laughs on the phone before he passed. He was super friendly one-on-one. And, he had the ONLY copy of Schulte (Front View) Piedmont 350 in existence! (As you know he also had the Doyle Error). For years, Joe kept insisting on our calls that he had a copy of the then unconfirmed Schulte (Front View) with Piedmont 350 but could not figure out how to send me a scan! I believed he had the card, but was blown-away that he didn't have a scanner (or at least couldn't figure out how to use it). He was old school -- which is actually endearing considering we are talking about old baseball cards that are cherished across generations.
Good stuff.
Scot
Hi Scot
Joe P. was quite a character, here's my story. In the early 1980's, I published several articles in Bob Lemke's BASEBALL CARDS magazine regarding 1948 - 1953 BOWMAN BB & FB
sets. There were variations and certain printing anomalies regarding cards in these sets that were not well understood in the hobby back then....and, I clarified them.
Joe P. was a serious collector of these sets, and when he read my articles, he thought I was a "genius". We met at the 1984 National in New Jersey. He was such a friendly guy who
could talk about the various aspects of sports cards for hours.
Twenty years later when I joined the Net54 forum, and began posting my collecting experiences and ideas regarding the T206 set, Joe turned against me by telling me that "I didn't
know what I was talking about". When I posted some of my early theory's (or surveys), Joe would respond with negative comments. If I did not respond to his posted comments, he
would then call me at home and tell me in no uncertain terms that I was wrong. And, there was no way that I could converse with him in a meaningful manner.
Joe had a good life, in the Military, Airlines, and as an Actor. I like to think of Joe when we first met in the 1980's. And, then again in the 1990's at Sotheby's (when they conducted
the auction that sold the "Gretzky Wagner").
TED Z
.
tedzan
04-10-2017, 06:56 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CobbBatOnSovereign150x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/LundgrenPiedmont150x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChanceSovereign460x209.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/DonlinBatPiedmont42x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChaseRedHINDUx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CobbBatSovereign350x13.jpg
T206 Plank has been a mystery for 108 years. In Dec 2006, after a lot of research, my "wild imagination" formed a theory for this card's scarcity..... T206 Plank theory (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=84132)
It was a popular thread with 113 responses; and, it is somewhat intricate. But I think you'll find it quite interesting.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206EddiePlankSC150x30.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206PlankSC150x30xb.jpg
I waited a long time to acquire this Plank, simply because I wanted one whose back was a SWEET CAPORAL 150, Factory #30.....in order to
complete my all--Sweet Cap, Factory #30 set. The majority of the Plank cards have Sweet Cap 350 backs.
OK, Plank's card is really no mystery in my mind anymore, since I read Connie Mack's response to a Philadelphia sports writer circa 1910.....
"The secret of Plank's pitching is no secret at all. It is a good strong arm, a powerful constitution to back it, and neither drinks, smokes,
chews tobacco, nor swears...." **
Eddie Plank most likely informed ATC that he did not want his image portrayed on Tobacco cards. Being the low-keyed guy that he was,
he didn't "hype" it up like Wagner did. Let's hear your thoughts on this subject ?
**
"Connie Mack", by Norman Macht
TED Z
.
tedzan
04-10-2017, 08:15 PM
Hi Scot
One of Joe's early squabbles with me was over the Schulte card. It wasn't that I questioned whether he had this card,
I simply told him it was either a "scrap", or an anomaly.
Also, I noted that if an EPDG card of Schulte were to appear, then I would be convinced that it was a legitimate issue.
Well, we have yet to see an EPDG card.
TED Z
.
sreader3
04-10-2017, 08:31 PM
It's hard to say whether the card is scrap. Looking at the card it is difficult to tell. And there are other unique front/back combos in T206. Heck, there are only two or three confirmed copies of Spencer with Piedmont 350 (although I recognize he exists with EPDG). I remain agnostic on Schulte 350's "scrapness."
tedzan
04-12-2017, 12:37 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206EddiePlankSC150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Sovereign460CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/amattyab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/MattyWCxSweetCap11xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/DuffySovereign460x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/JoeDoylePiedmont350x13.jpg
In 2008, a thread regarding an interesting 350-only series design that I refer to as the "A-B-C-D connection"...... T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=90139)
Here are the 4 new Tobacco brands introduced during the printing of the 350-only Series....circa Spring / Summer 1910. The American Lithographic Co. artist designed
the backs of the AMERICAN BEAUTY, BROAD LEAF, CYCLE, and DRUM having identical stylized FRAME and lettering. American Litho printed 190 subjects (listed here) to
fill out the 350-only series (as confirmed with the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 and CYCLE 350 cards). Currently, the scarcer BROAD LEAF 350 and DRUM cards fall short of
this 190 intended design by 13 subjects, and 65 subjects, respectively. More new BROAD LEAF 350 and DRUM cards have surfaced in recent years, and will continue to
be discovered in the future.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/ABCDxT206.jpg
The 190 subjects included in this series of these four T-brands
Abbott
Abstein
Adkins
Anderson
Arellanes
Armbruster
Arndt
Atz
Barbeau
Barry (A's)
Barry (Milwaukee)
Batch
Beck
Becker
Beckley
Bender (trees)
Bescher (portrait)
Blackburne
Bliss
Brain
Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell
Burke
Burns
Bush
Butler
Campbell
Carr
Carrigan
Casey
Cassidy
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chappelle
Charles
Chase (portrait-blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Clancy
Clark
Clymer
Cobb (portrait-red)
Collins (A's)
Congalton
Cravath
Cree
Davidson
Delehanty (Louisville)
Dessau
Dineen
Donovan (throwing)
Doolan (fielding)
Dorner
Downey (fielding)
Downs
Dubuc
Dunn (Baltimore)
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Dygert
Easterly
Egan
Engle
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Ferguson
Fiene (portrait)
Fiene (throwing)
Flanagan
Fletcher
Freeman
Fromme
Ganzel
Gasper
Graham (Boston)
Graham (St Louis)
Grimshaw
Hall
Hallman
Hannifan
Hartsel
Hayden
Hinchman (Toledo)
Hoblitzell
Hoffman (Providence)
Hoffman (St Louis)
Hofman
Howard (Chicago)
Howell (portrait)
Huggins (portrait)
Huggins (hands at mouth)
Hulswitt
Hunter
Jackson
Jones (Detroit)
Kelley
Killian (portrait)
Kisinger
Knabe
Knight (portrait)
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Krause (pitching)
Kroh
Kruger
Laporte
Lattimore
Lavender
Lennox
Livingstone
Lord
Maddox
Malarkey
Maloney
Marquard (portrait)
Marshall
Mathewson (dark cap)
McAleese
McBride
McCormick
Mc Elveen
McGann
McGinley
McGinnity
McGlynn
McIntyre (Detroit)
Merritt
Milan
Miller (Pittsburg)
Milligan
Mitchell (Cinci)
Mitchell (Toronto)
Moeller
Moran (Chicago)
Moran (Providence)
Moriarty
Mullin (portrait)
Murray (bat)
Myers (bat)
Myers (fielding)
Nattress
Oakes
Oberlin
O'Brien
O'Neill
Paskert
Perring
Pfeister (seated)
Phelan
Phelps
Phillippe
Pickering
Poland
Purtell
Quillen
Quinn
Randall
Raymond
Rhoades (hands at chest)
Rhodes
Ritter
Rudolph
Schirm
Schlafly
Schmidt (portrait)
Schreck
Scott
Sharpe
Shaw (Providence)
Slagle
Smith (Buffalo)
Snodgrass (bat)
Speaker
Stanage
Starr
Stephens
Strang
Street (portrait)
Summers
Sweeney (Boston)
J. Tannehill (Washington)
Taylor
Thielmann
Thomas
Titus
Unglaub
Warhop
White (Buffalo)
Willett
Wilson
Wright
Irv Young
Zimmerman
Here's my Frank Delehanty A-B-C-D connection......these are tough sub-sets to complete......so, let's see yours ?
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/FrankDelahantyABCDx50.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/FrankDelahantyABCDx50b.jpg
Stay tuned....the next post here will expand on this sub-set.
TED Z
.
tedzan
04-13-2017, 06:20 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206EddiePlankSC150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Sovereign460CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/amattyab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/MattyWCxSweetCap11xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/DuffySovereign460x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/JoeDoylePiedmont350x13.jpg
Expanding on the A-B-C-D sub-set, Darren (posts #65 & 73) of T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=90139) added the 1910 COUPON cards, whose backs are
identical to the stylized design of the A-B-C-D cards. Providing us proof that the timeline of 1910 COUPON (T213-1) set was issued Spring / Summer of 1910.
The blue Chase is my favorite T206 subject. If a DRUM card of Mr. Chase ever shows up, I might have a chance to complete this A - B - C - C - D sub-set.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/T206ChaseQuintuplcate75x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/ChaseABxBLxCOxCYx25.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206ElberfeldDRUMx25b.jpg
TED Z
.
2dueces
04-14-2017, 06:54 AM
Hi Ted,
I would be remiss if I failed to mention my "Possible Heitman Errors" thread from February 2005 where I was taken to task by the late Joe P. for daring to question "The Monster" checklist, which at the time was regarded as gospel by some.
[I think this was the first public "outing" of Ames (Hands at Chest) and Doyle (Throwing) as potential 150-onlys and Abbaticchio (Blue Sleeves), Latham, Overall (Hands at Waist), Schaefer (Washington) and Tannehill (No "L") as potential 460-onlys--hard to believe that this has only been public information for 12 years since it is is now so commonly accepted].
http://t.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=76172
Have to chuckle now about Joe P.'s blowback. I'll always be grateful to the Net54 guys who came to my defense (including Brian Weisner, Joshua Levine, Rhett Yeakley and the late, great Jim Blumenthal) even though I was a newbie. And even Joe P. eventually came around.
Scot
The new members of the board need to read this thread from 12 years ago to get an insight of how this monster we call the T206 came about. Bill adds two posts one below and one that he receives packages with 2000 T206's at a time. Truly a hobby legend.
Posted By: William Heitman
This is Bill Heitman. Most, if not all, of the errors referred to were caught within about a year of publication of The Monster. They were all errors made by the publisher that I didn't catch in proofing the book. He also added the Farrah pictures without my knowledge. But, Denny was a great friend, and I let that slide. My original working checklist does not have these "errors". I notified everyone via articles in Trader Speaks of the publishing errors. Incidently, I have probably had in excess of 1,000,000 T206s in my possession. My collection was able to fill about 4800 spots on my working checklist. Also--thanks for the compliments.
Bill
tedzan
04-14-2017, 09:27 AM
* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/AT206superprints9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpg
There has been much controversy on this forum as to whether the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards belong to the T206 "family". And, much of this is due to mis-information.
So, here are the facts.... as Detective Sergeant Joe Friday (from the TV series, Dragnet) would ask...." Just the facts, man ? "......
The Macon (Georgia) Telegraph newspaper was running advertisements introducing ATC's COUPON cigarette brand in the Spring of 1910. And, as shown, in the prior post
here, the 1910 COUPON cards' backs were printed with the same stylized design as the backs of the AMERICAN BEAUTY, BROAD LEAF, CYCLE, and DRUM cards (which we
know were issued in the Spring / Summer of 1910). The group of 48 subjects (Major Leaguers) were selected from an early print run of the 350-only series (illustrated in
the 48-card array shown here). And, the Southern Association subjects (20 cards) were printed from the 48 - Southern Leaguers in the T206 set. Furthermore, unlike the
T213-2 and T213-3 cards (with blue captions), the 1910 COUPON cards' captions were printed with Brown ink.
The minor exception with the 1910 COUPON (with respect to the T206 cards) is that American Litho printed the 1910 COUPON cards on "thinner" cardboard. This was done
simply because these cards were not intended to serve as Cigarette pack " stiffeners ". The initial marketing of the COUPON cigarette brand was not in packs, instead these
cigarettes were packaged in the standard cigarette cartons (11" x 3" x 2") of that era, which were labelled " COUPON Cigarettes ", and contained 100's of cigarettes. The
1910 Coupon cards were placed inside these cartons, or "spot-glued" on the outside of the carton (indicative of the red Cobb's paper loss on its back, as shown below).
Jefferson Burdick didn't have the benefit of the "Internet" when he included the 1910 COUPON set in with his classification of the T213-2 and T213-3 sets which were cards
issued 1914 - 1915 (his stated timeline). It's my opinion that Burdick would have included the T213-1 in his classification of the T206's, had he known what we now know.
Furthermore, we now know that the T213-2 and T213-3 cards were actually issued 1914 - 1919.
Click on this thread for the 1910 COUPON checklist.... FYI....1910 COUPON checklist (T213-1) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=132360&page=3)
1910 COUPON (T213-1) Major League (48) subjects
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1stQuad350seriesSheet12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/2ndQuad350seriesSheet12xxx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/3rdQuad350seriesSheet12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/4thQuad350serieSheet12xx.jpg
The Six Super Prints are seldom seen with the 1910 COUPON advertisement.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/1910couponcobb50x.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/1910COUPONredCobb75xb.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/1910CouponChance.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/1910CouponChanceBx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/1910couponmattyeverschase.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/1910couponmattyeverschase25xb.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1910COUPONchasedkcap38x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1910COUPONdkcapChase50b.jpg
TED Z
.
tedzan
04-15-2017, 04:06 PM
The new members of the board need to read this thread from 12 years ago to get an insight of how this monster we call the T206 came about. Bill adds two posts one below and one that he receives packages with 2000 T206's at a time. Truly a hobby legend.
Posted By: William Heitman
This is Bill Heitman. Most, if not all, of the errors referred to were caught within about a year of publication of The Monster. They were all errors made by the publisher that I didn't catch in proofing the book. He also added the Farrah pictures without my knowledge. But, Denny was a great friend, and I let that slide. My original working checklist does not have these "errors". I notified everyone via articles in Trader Speaks of the publishing errors. Incidently, I have probably had in excess of 1,000,000 T206s in my possession. My collection was able to fill about 4800 spots on my working checklist. Also--thanks for the compliments.
Bill
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/BillHeitmanTheMonsterBook.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/TheMonsterBookFarahFawcett.jpg
This pamphlet size book by Bill Heitman started it all for many of us BB card collectors in the early 1980's. T206 cards were "hot" at the famous Willow Grove Show
in Pennsylvania in 1981. It is where and when I became "addicted" to collecting these gems. A T206 Vg-Ex common sold for only $2. And, a green or red Cobb sold
for only $15 - $20, each. Furthermore, if you were lucky to find a dealer at the Show selling a DRUM....you could get it for a mere $100.
Incidentally,
Dennis Eckes was the publisher of Jim Beckett's BB Card Price Guide (1st edition, 1979). Dennis published Bill Heitman's 32-page book "T206 The Monster" in 1980.
Dennis was fascinated with Farrah Fawcett. So what guy wasn't when she appeared on the scene in the late 1970's. Dennis included 6 poses of Farrah in Bill's book.
TED Z
.
tedzan
04-17-2017, 05:59 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206EddiePlankSC150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/SOVEREIGN150Johnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CYoungPiedmont150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/amattyab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Sovereign460CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McGrawGloveUZITxSGC30xx.jpg
Jim Blumenthal started the "ball rolling" regarding the Ty Cobb/TY COBB card when he posted this thread in T2006...... Senator Russel's tobacco card collection...... (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=83473)
Jim never waivered in his belief that this Ty Cobb card should have been classified as a T206.
Seven years ago this month, Jon Canfield posted this Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb thread that sparked some spirited discussion......including information revealing that the Ty Cobb
Cut Plug Smoking Tobacco was marketed in the Spring of 1910...... What We Have Learned About Ty Cobbs With a Ty Cobb Back (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=122677)
Check-it-out :)
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/bcobbtycobb.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/acobbtycobb.jpg
TED Z
.
tedzan
04-19-2017, 07:01 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CobbBatOnSovereign150x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/LundgrenPiedmont150x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChanceSovereign460x209.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/HerzogEPDGsgc60x11.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/DuffySovereign460x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/JoeDoylePiedmont350x13.jpg
This project has been a work in progress on Net54 since 2005. Additional inputs (or corrections) to these checklists are greatly appreciated.
In Jan 2011, for ease of access, I consolidated into a single thread the T206 front/back surveys which were previously conducted on Net54.
Furthermore, included is the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) and RED CROSS (T215-1) checklists, as these sets fall under the "T206 rubric" in that
they are White-Bordered, Brown-Captioned Tobacco cards printed and issued by American Lithographic within the 1909 - 1911 timeline.
And included is the Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back (issued Spring/Summer 1910), since it also conforms to the above stated T206 rubric.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/array18tt206bk.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/bcobbtycobb.jpg
T206 confirmed front/back surveys with respect to T-brand.
AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 & 460 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=124927)
BROAD LEAF 350 & 460 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=125062)
BROAD LEAF 460 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=234078)
CAROLINA BRIGHTS (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=133154)
CYCLE 350 & 460 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=125615)
DRUM (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=125269
)
EL PRINCIPE de GALES (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=125165)
Brown HINDU (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=127039
)
Red HINDU (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=125087
)
LENOX (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=125040
)
OLD MILL (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=125226
)
PIEDMONT (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=124959
)
POLAR BEAR (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=126471
)
SOVEREIGN (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=125041)
SWEET CAPORAL (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=125458)
TOLSTOI (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=125242)
UZIT (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=125104)
1910 COUPON (T213-1) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=132360&page=3)
1910-1912 RED CROSS (T215-1) (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=132552)
Ty Cobb / "TY COBB" Tobacco (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=92026)
TED Z
.
Rich Falvo
04-19-2017, 07:57 PM
Thanks to Ted and all the others who contribute to these general knowledge threads. They are a very valuable resource, especially for new collectors.
tedzan
04-22-2017, 06:22 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206WagnerRptx207.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206EddiePlankSC150x30xz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206LajoieBatP350x460x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206MarquardP350x11.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206ChanceBatP460x11.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206MAGIEx13.jpg
Pictured here are the 6 major T206 cards missing in Sen. Russell's near complete set
Imagine pulling a Joe Doyle Nat'l card from a Piedmont pack when you were a teenager. Or, your Dad's visit to Atlanta in 1910 acquiring a Ty Cobb/TY COBB card for you ? ?
One of the most unique T206 collections in the hobby is on display at the University of Georgia (Athens). Former Georgia Senator Richard Russell's collection of approx. 1000
tobacco cards were donated to Georgia U. in 1983 (along with Russell's historical papers).
Russell was an avid BB fan as a youngster. At the age of 13 (1910), he started smoking cigarettes (Piedmont was the available brand in his area of Georgia). He pulled 100's
of T206 cards from the packs he purchased. Furthermore, Old Mill brand was available in his home town, of which he accumulated 100's of T210 cards. His T206 set has 497
different cards. As depicted in the header illustration above, no Wagner or Plank in his collection. Not unusual, since these two gems were not marketed with Piedmont backs.
Also missing in his set (as shown) are Lajoie, Marquard, Chance, and the Magie error.
His teenage smoking habit came to an abrupt end in Fall of 1911, when his parents enrolled him into Gordon Military Institute. It is my impression that his BB card collecting
also ended at that point (judging from the fewer number of T205 cards in his collection).
For more info, you can check out this thread posted in 2008......Senator Russell's collection incl. Joe Doyle error & Ty Cobb back (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=90251&highlight=ty+cobb%2Fty+cobb+back)
And, here's the link to an excellent website regarding Russell's collection...... http://baseballcards.galib.uga.edu/about/
P.S.
In 2008, I became very interested in this story regarding Richard Russell's collection, since I acquired 40 cards (duplicates) from his original collection. A distant relative of his
had consigned approx. 200 cards (mostly T206's) to a dealer in Atlanta (who listed the cards on ebay). She was selling many of his duplicates which she had found in a box in
a desk drawer from Russell's estate. The T206's were all Piedmont 350 backs. Including 7 of them from the "Elite 11" group. I was thrilled to acquire all 7 of these rare cards.
Furthermore, I called the dealer in Atlanta and he was a wealth of information regarding the Russell collection.
TED Z
.
tedzan
04-24-2017, 06:40 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206WagnerRptx207.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206EddiePlankSC150x30xz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206LajoieBatP350x460x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206MarquardP350x11.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206ChanceBatP460x11.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206MAGIEx13.jpg
Pictured here are the 6 major T206 cards missing in Sen. Russell's near complete set
WOW ! I am happy to see someone out in the hinterland is interested in this good stuff. I received an email from a Net54 reader who is fascinated with the Russell collection.
One of the questions he asked me...... "Which additional cards are missing from Russell's set ?"
In the above post regarding this collection, I posted 497 different PIEDMONT cards (the number mentioned in the Russell Collection website). However, I double-checked the
cards in this set and my count is 507 different cards. Listed here are the missing 17 cards......
Plank and Wagner (The PIEDMONT 150 cards of these two subjects were printed by American Lithographic, but never issued in cigarette packs).
Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis variations) were printed only with POLAR BEAR backs. POLAR BEAR cigarettes were not marketed in Georgia (circa 1910-1911).
Magie error
Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Chance (batting)
Davy Jones
Kiernan
Lajoie (with bat)
Manning (pitching)
Marquard (portrait)
McQuillan (ball in hand)
Moriarity
Pfeister (seated)
Stark
Furthermore, Russell's T206 set approaches a master all-PIEDMONT set, since it includes most of the additional PIEDMONT 350 cards of the 150/350 series subjects.
If anyone has anymore questions regarding this set....or questions about Mr. Russell....don't be shy about asking them. I will try to answer them.
TED Z
.
tedzan
04-27-2017, 07:59 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Ex12UzitHinduAB460x13.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Ex12Cy460xEPDGxOMx13.jpg
Pictured here are the 6 toughest backs that were printed on the Exclusive 12 cards
The Exclusive 12 story
Feb 2013, I posted a theory regarding 12 subjects in the 460-only series that were exclusively printed on their own sheet. I base this hypothesis on several factors. Foremost
being that these 12 subjects are the only ones in the 460-only series found with red HINDU backs. Furthermore, the availability of the Exclusive 12 with the red HINDU backs
considerably out-numbers any of the 350/460 series cards with red HINDU backs
Also,, while most of the other subjects in the 460-only series were printed with LENOX backs, the Exclusive 12 are LENOX no-prints. DITTO, regarding the PIEDMONT 460 F#42
cards. This tells us that these 12 subjects were printed in a separate press run from their other "cousins" in the 460-only series. Check-out this thread...... The Exclusive 12 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=163949)
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1stEx12gpSC460x42x25x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/2ndEx12gpSC460x42x25x.jpg
Crandall (cap)
Devore
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Hummel
McGraw (glove at hip)
Pfeffer
Sheckard (glove)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Wheat
Illustrated here is my concept of an Exclusive 12 printed sheet....based on American Litho's 19" wide press, and a standard size 19" x 24" cardboard sheet.
.. v ............................................ 19" x 24" sheet .............................................v
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/Ex12sheet96cards38x.jpg
More specific info and T-brand back runs regarding the Exclusive 12 group will follow in the next post.
TED Z
.
tedzan
04-28-2017, 10:22 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Ex12UzitHinduAB460x13.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Ex12Cy460xEPDGxOMx13.jpg
Pictured here are the 6 toughest backs that were printed on the Exclusive 12 cards
Exactly 13 - T206 backs were printed on each of the Exclusive 12 subjects in the 460-only series. Illustrated here is the complete run of the McGraw cards.
Needless to say, the red HINDU and UZIT are the toughest cards to find in this run. And fortunately, there were no LENOX or PIEDMONT 460 (Factory #42)
cards printed in this group. Incidentally, this McGraw (glove) with UZIT is a brand new find.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/McGrawRedHINDUsgcX.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/McGrawGloveUZITxSGC30x.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McGrawGloveUZITxb.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/McGrawRedHINDUsgcB.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/McGrawSC42xSC42optSOVxPd4xPBxx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/McGrawSC42xSC42optSOVxPd4xPB.jpg
Factory #42.....................Factory #42
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/McGrawEPDGxTOLxAB460xOM.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/McGrawEPDGxTOLxAB460xOMb.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McGrawGloveSweetCapFactory30xx12.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McGrawCYCLE460x18.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McGrawCYCLE460x18b.jpg
Factory #30
:) Call me "nuts"....or, whatever....but, I'm having fun engaging in a long-term project to complete the back runs of the Exclusive 12 subjects. There
are 156 possible permutations, I now have 123 of them. The UZIT cards are virtually impossible to find, so I don't expect to complete this mission :)
To date, there are only five Exclusive 12 confirmed UZIT cards......
Crandall
Geyer
Hummel
McGraw
Sheckard
Stay tuned for more.
TED Z
.
Ronnie73
04-29-2017, 12:34 AM
Go for it Ted!! Your almost there. I'm only at 41 without trying and no Piedmont or Sweet Caporal's. I'm gonna have to put a little more effort into these. Thank you for all your T206 research.
tedzan
04-29-2017, 06:12 PM
Go for it Ted!! Your almost there. I'm only at 41 without trying and no Piedmont or Sweet Caporal's. I'm gonna have to put a little more effort into these. Thank you for all your T206 research.
Hi Ron
I really appreciate your words of encouragement......Thank you.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Ex12UzitHinduAB460x13.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Ex12Cy460xEPDGxOMx13.jpg
Pictured here are the 6 toughest backs that were printed on the Exclusive 12 cards
And here's my Russ Ford back run from the Exclusive 12 group. I just need the EPDG and UZIT to complete this 13-card run.......
Factory #30
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/FordSCfactory30.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/Ex12FordRHx50.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/tedzan77/FordRHb.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/FordABxCYxPDxSovSCxOMxTolx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/FordABxCYxPDxSovSCxOMxTol.jpg
Factory #42
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/FordSC42ovptPBx25.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/FordSC42ovptPBx25b.jpg
Factory #42
Factory #30
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/FordSCfactory30.jpg
TED Z
.
tedzan
04-30-2017, 08:16 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AB350JohnsonCrawfdBaker12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AB350JennBendWillis12x.jpg
HOFers in the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 NF // DRUM sub-set
Tim Cathey posted a thread in July 2010 which presented that the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame (NF) and the DRUM cards were a "matched set". Tim's exact words were:
" If a 350/460 player can be found with an American Beauty 350 No Frame back they should also be found with a Drum back and visa versa. " And, this rule has withstood the
test of time as new DRUM cards have been discovered these past 7 years. The one exception to this rule is Mullin (bat), who has not yet been confirmed with a DRUM back.
I completely expect that the Mullin / DRUM card will eventually surface. Refer to Tim's thread...... Matching set....American Beauty 350 (No Frame) and Drum (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=125926)
Posted in 2015, the following theory regarding the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (NF) series of 37 subjects is based on my long term experience tracking down these AB 350 cards.
Especially, the Nichols (with bat) card and the Stahl (glove) card. These 2 cards have proven to be considerably tougher to find with the AB 350NF back (and the DRUM back)
than the other 35 guys in this group. My theory suggests this group was printed in a 36-card (12 x 3) format. Nichols was in the initial print runs, while Stahl was not. Nichols
retired April 25, 1910. American Litho replaced him on their 36-card format with Jake Stahl. This theory has been proven by empirical means, and by Pop report data **
Nicholls AB 350NF POP report (SGC + PSA) is 7 cards.
Stahl AB 350NF POP report (SGC + PSA) is 8 cards.
The POP report (SGC + PSA) of any of the remaining 35 subjects in this group averages 14 cards each.
For further info on this subject refer to thread...... Theory regarding AB 350 NF printing (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=210558)
350-only series example
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/AB350xDelehantyElberfeldDRUM.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/AB350xDelehantyElberfeldDRUMb.jpg
350/460 series example
AMERICAN BEAUTY 350NF // DRUM (37 subjects) checklist
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Burch (fielding)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Downey (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lake (St Louis-no ball)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (with bat) *
Murphy (bat)
Nichols (bat) ..................... initial press runs
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Stahl (glove) ..................... replaced Nichols in subsequent press runs
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (New York)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)
* NOTE
Mullin (with bat) has yet to be confirmed with DRUM. I feel certain this card will eventually be discovered.
** Note
While I realize POP report data cannot be considered as absolute, I think it's fair to say that the POP data
is representative of the relative availability of certain cards with respect to other cards within that group.
TED Z
.
Posted in 2015, the following theory regarding the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (NF) series of 37 subjects is based on my long term experience tracking down these AB 350 cards.
Especially, the Nicholls (with bat) card and the Stahl (glove) card. These 2 cards have proven to be considerably tougher to find with the AB 350NF back (and the DRUM back)
than the other 35 guys in this group. My theory suggests this group was printed in a 36-card (12 x 3) format. Nicholls was in the initial print runs, while Stahl was not. Nicholls
retired April 25, 1910. American Litho replaced him on their 36-card format with Jake Stahl. This theory has been proven by empirical means, and by Pop report data **
Nicholls AB 350NF POP report (SGC + PSA) is 7 cards.
Stahl AB 350NF POP report (SGC + PSA) is 8 cards.
The POP report (SGC + PSA) of any of the remaining 35 subjects in this group averages 14 cards each.
Ted the combined Pops for Nichols and Stahl are:
Nichols 13 (PSA-9 & SGC -4)
Stahl 14 (PSA-7 & SGC-7)
Not trying to shoot your idea down. I just recently wrote an article about this subset and looked at the Pops for all 37 cards, so I remembered that neither of these cards were in the single digits.
tedzan
05-01-2017, 12:00 PM
Ted the combined Pops for Nichols and Stahl are:
Nichols 13 (PSA-9 & SGC -4)
Stahl 14 (PSA-7 & SGC-7)
Not trying to shoot your idea down. I just recently wrote an article about this subset and looked at the Pops for all 37 cards, so I remembered that neither of these cards were in the single digits.
Hi Luke
I just reviewed my records of 2 years ago and the Pop numbers I had posted in my thread did not include the PSA data (although I stated that in that thread).....my bad.
So, the average Pop number for the 35 subjects in the AB 350NF group increases to 19 when PSA + SGC are totaled. Therefore, when we consider your Pop numbers for
Nicholls and Stahl, I say they do support my contention. So. what say you about this ?
Nichols 13 (PSA-9 & SGC -4) See note below
Stahl 14 (PSA-7 & SGC-7)
Note
PSA has 2 distinct AB 350NF listings for Nichols. The listing you didn't cite has only 3 graded. Please explain why you chose the 9 data ? And, what is the difference ?
Thanks,
TED Z
.
Hey Ted,
PSA used the generic "American Beauty" for all ABs regardless of series when they first started noting the backs on the flip. Recently, they got more specific and now they will note "American Beauty 350 no frame" on the flip.
The generic "American Beauty" heading below shows how many total Nichols American Beautys have been graded (9) and the more specific heading below that shows how many have been graded more recently and given the more specific "American Beauty 350 no frame" flip.
If you look at the individual entries in the "AB 350 no frame" listing, you'll see that those 3 cards are also counted as part of the 9 total cards graded under the generic heading.
Since we know that all Nichols ABs are the AB 350nf, we know that all 9 have the same back.
It's the same for Sovereign and Cycle. The Pop reports are not of much value for finding how many Sov150 have been graded if the same pose exists with Sov350. The generic heading will have say 30 listings, and the specific Sov150 and Sov350 listings might only have 2 or 3 each.
Here is my copy. You can see that it is listed in both the generic and the specific headings.
tedzan
05-02-2017, 01:19 PM
Hi Luke
Thanks for clarifying the two PSA listings on the same Nichols card.
TED Z
.
tedzan
05-03-2017, 09:33 AM
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/LundgrenPiedmont150x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/EPDGx13.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AB350JohnsonCrawfdBaker12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AB460CobbBat12xzz.jpg
My 1st adventure into rare F/B combos
I will begin with my 1st set of T206 cards. I started collecting T206's in 1981, when I acquired the Hal Chase card (displayed here) at the Willow Grove Show in Pennsylvania.
I've always been an avid set collector (completed sets of 1887 A & G, 1888 N162, T205, T207, Goudey's, Dia Stars, PlayBall's, Leaf's, Bowman's and 1952 Topps-1987 Topps.
So, this T206 set was not high priority for me. I completed this 521-card set circa 1996. I was smart about buying the Cobb's (and other major stars) in the early 1980's.
The Cobb's were selling for only $20 back then for VgEx to Ex condition. Also, I acquired a MAGIE (Vg) for only $600 (circa 1987).
Furthermore, note the Lundgren / EPDG at the top of this page. I thank Barry Sloate for starting me searching for rare front/back combos with this one in the early 1980's.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1stT206Chaseblue50x.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1stT206Chaseblue50xb.jpg
Anyone want to guess what I paid for this card in 1981 ?
OK guys, that's my initial T206 story......would love to hear your experiences in the quest to (near) complete "The Monster" ?
TED Z
.
I'm guessing you paid $6.That include a premium for the rare Old Mill back. :D
Hot Springs Bathers
05-03-2017, 01:52 PM
I was paying $25.00 for 50 different in 1977 so I will guess $1.00 Ted
tedzan
05-03-2017, 09:28 PM
I'm guessing you paid $6.That include a premium for the rare Old Mill back. :D
OK, Sean and Mike
I paid $8 for the Chase.
Back then, unless it was a T206 DRUM back, not much consideration was given to "rare" backs by most dealers.
TED Z
.
tedzan
05-04-2017, 07:59 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BreitensteinShaughnessyFoster11x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AB350JohnsonCrawfdBaker12x.jpg
Gee, I thought some of you would chime in here and share your experience(s) of putting together your T206 sets.
Oh well....I sold my first T206 set in 1997 to a close friend. Then in 2004, a long-time friend of mine from Florida called me to say they were driving up to Pennsylvania to visit
relatives. And, he was bringing his T206 collection with him. He asked me if I was interested in it ? Of course, I said yes !
We worked out a nice cash/trade deal (his T206's for my Goudey's and Diamond Stars and a stack of Ben Franklin's). Afterward, we celebrated by treating them to an exquisite
dinner at the near-by Washington Crossing Inn.
This T206 collection comprised of approx. 500 cards, including the St Louis variations of Demmitt & O'Hara, and 29 different T206 backs (no BL 460 or DRUM). Within a month,
I acquired the needed Stars and Commons to make it a 520-card set.
Stay tuned, my 3rd set is an interesting adventure. Meanwhile, I do look forward to hearing of your set experiences.
TED Z
.
Ronnie73
05-04-2017, 09:50 PM
I got somewhat of a late start on my T206 collection. I didn't get serious about the cards and the set until 2010. Before that, I spent time collecting post-war cards, coins, stamps, and comic books from 1982 to 2009. I had a small number of T206's before really being interested in them. All low grade commons. I don't really count them as the start. My start and what I still call my first T206 set purchase in 2010 was a Hooks Wiltse Pitching. I remember scanning the pages of ebay looking for something special to officially start my set. Viewing the scans of the fronts & backs and looking for hidden gems. Then I found it. Wiltse Pitching PSA 2 with a blurry scan of the Piedmont 350-460 back. Even with the blurry scan, I could tell the factory line was longer (factory 42) than all the other Piedmont backs. So I hit the Buy It Now for $44.95 and have been hooked ever since. My first 5 purchases over the first month consisted of four Piedmont 42's and a Bob Groom Tolstoi Back. In my second month on my ninth purchase, I bought a Bob Groom Polar Bear. Nine cards in and i'm playing with the idea of a Front/Back combo set. I'm currently at 1249 different Front/Back combo's and that number has no Piedmont's except for Factory 42's and no Sweet Caporals. Within the 1249 cards, I'm ten cards away from a 520 set. The only complete back sub-set within the 1249 is the Old Mill SL set. I'm 5 away from a Sovereign 460 set, 3 being super prints and 2 others. I'm 40 away from a Polar Bear set and have the Demmitt St Louis. One sub-set I have that I don't count in my 1249 different cards is the Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 "No Print" Scraps, 27 different cards including Cobb Bat Off. When these were listed on ebay, only 27 different cards showed up even though I believe it is a 28 card set. I believe this is the most complete set intact. I also know David Hall has a decent amount of the set too but don't know which ones he's missing. All I can say is its been a fun 7 years since starting this set and I owe Net54 and the experts for much of it. Thank you.
Bpm0014
05-05-2017, 09:10 AM
OK, I'll post mine. Used to collect cards when I was younger in the late 80's. My last name is Mullen. At that time I bought a T206 Mullen portrait for about $20 and a Tinker, Evers, Chance for about $25 each (the same missing red Tinker in my avatar). Fast forward to 2007 when I happened to go thru some old things and I found these 4 cards. I was just getting started with playing poker and I told myself that it would be a fun project to try and put the set together. Fast forward to today and I'm at 506. My set consists of some rare backs (Lenox), 2 signed (both Larry Doyle), a scrap (Lucky Wright), a blank back, a card with a ton of extra color that bled all over the card, and a Harry Davis Phila. Amep (instead of Phila. Amer.). My set (and my overall collection) has solely been built with poker and sports betting winnings. Although I'm up a good amount overall, it hasn't been all smooth sailing (as I've had to sell 2 green Cobb's, a signed Larry Doyle, a Lenox, and a couple others hahaha).
Pat R
05-05-2017, 11:37 AM
OK, I'll post mine. Used to collect cards when I was younger in the late 80's. My last name is Mullen. At that time I bought a T206 Mullen portrait for about $20 and a Tinker, Evers, Chance for about $25 each (the same missing red Tinker in my avatar). Fast forward to 2007 when I happened to go thru some old things and I found these 4 cards. I was just getting started with playing poker and I told myself that it would be a fun project to try and put the set together. Fast forward to today and I'm at 506. My set consists of some rare backs (Lenox), 2 signed (both Larry Doyle), a scrap (Lucky Wright), a blank back, a card with a ton of extra color that bled all over the card, and a Harry Davis Phila. Amep (instead of Phila. Amer.). My set (and my overall collection) has solely been built with poker and sports betting winnings. Although I'm up a good amount overall, it hasn't been all smooth sailing (as I've had to sell 2 green Cobb's, a signed Larry Doyle, a Lenox, and a couple others hahaha).
Brendan,
Since we last talked about the Davis "AMEP" I've seen several new ones.
Previously all of them were PD150's but recently I've seen a couple of SC150/649's.
272101
These are all PD150's
272102
272103
272104
272105
Bpm0014
05-05-2017, 12:49 PM
Brendan,
Since we last talked about the Davis "AMEP" I've seen several new ones.
Previously all of them were PD150's but recently I've seen a couple of SC150/649's.
Wow. I think this is a pretty neat card that hasn't really got any respect yet. It's truly no different than the 'nodgrass or the Dopner, and there may be less examples.
tedzan
05-06-2017, 06:22 PM
Hi Ron and Brendan
Some very interesting stories, thanks for sharing them with us.
TED Z
.
tedzan
05-08-2017, 09:33 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
v......................... PIEDMONT 150 ..........................v....................... .... PIEDMONT 350.........................v
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/LundgrenPiedmont150x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/SOVEREIGN150Johnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CYoungPiedmont150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BreitensteinShaughnessyFoster11x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpg
Jan 2006....The novelty of completing a 2nd set was short-lived. Indeed, The Monster had me "hooked". Going thru set #2, I noticed that 44% of the cards were Piedmont's.
This fact inspired me to embark on a new adventure....PIEDMONT-only set. I figured that it should be somewhat easy, since American Litho printed over 50% of the T206's
they produced with the Piedmont advertisements. In the 1st decade of the 20th Century, Piedmont was the "Flagship" brand of the American Tobacco Company.
I broke up this set and started converting Sweet Caporal, Sovereign, Polar Bear, etc. cards to Piedmont cards. The first smart move in this process was getting together with
Dave Czuba (who I had helped complete his 520-card set). We had a great trading session, trading his Piedmont T206's for whatever other T206 brands in my set. When the
"smoke" cleared, my new set's Piedmont population increased to 67%.
My first milestone was reached in May 2006 upon completing the run of the...... PIEDMONT 150 series (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=81135)
Example sheet from my album
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/PIEDMONT150sheet1x50.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/Piedmont150sheet1x50b.jpg
It was more or less "smooth sailing" from that point on to acquiring the remaining Piedmont Stars and Commons to achieve the goal of a 518-card set. The only dif-
ficult cards I encountered were certain Southern Leaguers with Piedmont 350 backs. Three of them are shown at the top of this page (Breitenstein, Shaughnessy and
Foster). In fact, most of the Southern Leaguers (which were originally printed with brown HINDU backs) were tough to find with Piedmont 350 backs.
Nov 2006....initial Mission Accomplished...... 518-card PIEDMONT-only set.
Eventually, I acquired a MAGIE to update this set to 519 cards.
June 2007....I found a card which I refer to as a "poor man's" substitute for the Joe Doyle Nat'L. Check out this thread regarding.... "Poor man's" Joe Doyle error (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=87066)
Finally, my PIEDMONT set was complete with 520 cards.
https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/at206joedoylenatl.bmphttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/JoeDoyleDotP350xSOV350.jpg
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -^ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Printer's Mark - - - -^ (remnant of "N" in Nat'L)
Stay tuned for my 4th set, which was quite a challenge. Meanwhile, I look forward to hearing of your T206 set experiences.
TED Z
.
Ronnie73
05-08-2017, 10:17 PM
Ted, those cards look great in the pages. Since i'm more of a PSA Registry kinda collector, I do at some point plan on building a raw good condition set for a binder. I probably will build with Piedmont, Sweet Caporal, Polar Bear, Sovereign's and Old Mill. I'll probably keep it at 520.
tedzan
05-09-2017, 07:09 AM
I got somewhat of a late start on my T206 collection. I didn't get serious about the cards and the set until 2010. Before that, I spent time collecting post-war cards, coins, stamps, and comic books from 1982 to 2009. I had a small number of T206's before really being interested in them. All low grade commons. I don't really count them as the start. My start and what I still call my first T206 set purchase in 2010 was a Hooks Wiltse Pitching. I remember scanning the pages of ebay looking for something special to officially start my set. Viewing the scans of the fronts & backs and looking for hidden gems. Then I found it. Wiltse Pitching PSA 2 with a blurry scan of the Piedmont 350-460 back. Even with the blurry scan, I could tell the factory line was longer (factory 42) than all the other Piedmont backs. So I hit the Buy It Now for $44.95 and have been hooked ever since. My first 5 purchases over the first month consisted of four Piedmont 42's and a Bob Groom Tolstoi Back. In my second month on my ninth purchase, I bought a Bob Groom Polar Bear. Nine cards in and i'm playing with the idea of a Front/Back combo set. I'm currently at 1249 different Front/Back combo's and that number has no Piedmont's except for Factory 42's and no Sweet Caporals. Within the 1249 cards, I'm ten cards away from a 520 set. The only complete back sub-set within the 1249 is the Old Mill SL set. I'm 5 away from a Sovereign 460 set, 3 being super prints and 2 others. I'm 40 away from a Polar Bear set and have the Demmitt St Louis. One sub-set I have that I don't count in my 1249 different cards is the Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 "No Print" Scraps, 27 different cards including Cobb Bat Off. When these were listed on ebay, only 27 different cards showed up even though I believe it is a 28 card set. I believe this is the most complete set intact. I also know David Hall has a decent amount of the set too but don't know which ones he's missing. All I can say is its been a fun 7 years since starting this set and I owe Net54 and the experts for much of it. Thank you.
Hi Ron
This is a very impressive story, and thanks for sharing it with us.
It's interesting that you noted that your T206 collection does not have any Piedmont Factory #25 cards; and, I just posted my story regarding my Piedmont (Factory #25) set.
I'm curious....regarding your Sweet Cap 350-460 Factory 30 Scraps (27 cards)....are these all the same subjects (in post #8 here) which I identified as the Group B subjects ?
TED Z
.
Bpm0014
05-09-2017, 07:41 AM
"poor man's" substitute for a Joe Doyle Nat'L. Check out this thread regarding the.... "Poor man's" Joe Doyle error
Ted, I have one of these. Pretty pronounced. I bought it solely based on your thread. Do these command a premium?
tedzan
05-09-2017, 08:30 AM
Hi Brendan
I haven't tracked these Joe Doyle (with the printer's mark) cards in recent times, so I cannot really give you a good answer to your question.
When we first (circa 2007) brought attention to this printer's mark, I recall that cards advertised with it were selling for a premium.
Perhaps, some one on this forum can chime in and give you a current response to your question.
Thanks,
TED Z
.
Bpm0014
05-09-2017, 09:51 AM
Thanks Ted, I would appreciate it. I always enjoy your knowledge and the hard work you put into your T206 stories, and theories, etc. Good job.
Thromdog
05-09-2017, 09:55 AM
My story isn't overly interesting. I started collecting the monster in June of 2013 while on vacation in Destin, Florida. I bought a Tim Jordan batting PSA 3 from PWCC. Paid $26. I basically bought anything I felt was a good price for the condition and then started buying lots to help knock off the needed list. Condition varied.
Last card I bought to get to 520 was a Cobb red portrait with an Old Mill back. It's a PSA 2mk with a stamp on the back. Beautiful card for the grade.
Since then I've been upgrading my set when I find good deals.
Also, back in 2014, I won about 15 EPDGs that were individually listed auctions from JustCollect. Either they or their consignors had purchased a large EPDG lot from REA and was breaking it up. I sat on those until the fall of 2015 and decided to try to get to 100 EPDGs. Then it became 200 EPDGs. Not sure how far I will go but I currently am at 217 unique ones. I need to update my collage, 3 more need to be added.....apologies on the size of the picture if it skews the screen. I've only added about 5 this year. Been tough finding ones I need. Condition varies from trimmed sides and top to highest graded examples.....Lindaman SGC 70, Fiene throwing PSA 6, and my favorite Frank Smith PSA 6. Don't have any of the biggest HOFers, and probably won't end up buying those, but am happy I've gotten this far. Gonna have to sell them off at some point.
http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab121/thromdog/t206/total.jpg
KingFisk
05-09-2017, 01:45 PM
I picked up four T206s this week, all with HOF subjects and my first EPDG back. These four cards put me at 260 - squarely in the middle of what I hope to achieve will be a 520 card set.
I started collecting the T206s last year, when I picked up a Walter Johnson (Hands at Chest) to complete my 3,000 strikeout club collection. Owning that very old piece of cardboard caused a sea change in what I wanted to focus on.
I went on a tear of buying, centered around buying about 200 PSA 3 cards, mostly commons, off of a guy on eBay. This was where the bulk of my acquisitions came from. By all VCP accounts, this was a good deal and gave me an instant collection.
In a lot of ways I regret how I've approached the Monster so far. I wish I had spent the money from the lot on Ty Cobbs, and other expensive cards instead. I don't own any of the Cobbs and the prices on the portraits as we all know have gone insane recently. I am now afraid I am priced out of getting nice low grade ones, especially the green. I also regret not looking at a few of the cards I bought on eBay more closely. In my newness and eagerness to acquire, I did not put a careful eye on cards that look to be trimmed in their slabs. I am somewhat certain that a couple of my moderately pricy HOF cards may have had a little haircut along the way.
So almost one year later I am much farther along than I expected to be at this point thanks to that lot. But I am recalibrating my approach - slowing down and going for the HOF and SL cards first, banking on the hope that most of the VG commons will stay relatively stable in price.
This has been such a joy to collect so far - connecting with the game's past, and America's past, really. I have loved following the the threads on here and am constantly referring back to the work that guys like Scot Reader and Ted Z have done. And I am really loving Luke's blog. It's an amazing quilt of research and detective work, and my hats off to all of you.
I am a small time, JV player in the Monster game but the thrills are immeasurable whenever I acquire a new little piece of 108 year-old cardboard. Thanks to Net 54 for the inspiration and the knowledge.
Ronnie73
05-09-2017, 03:50 PM
Hi Ted, Yes, the 28 cards in Group B. Lajoie With Bat never showed up but all the others came up with between 2 and 8 cards each.
Hi Ron
This is a very impressive story, and thanks for sharing it with us.
It's interesting that you noted that your T206 collection does not have any Piedmont Factory #25 cards; and, I just posted my story regarding my Piedmont (Factory #25) set.
I'm curious....regarding your Sweet Cap 350-460 Factory 30 Scraps (27 cards)....are these all the same subjects (in post #8 here) which I identified as the Group B subjects ?
TED Z
.
Ronnie73
05-09-2017, 03:57 PM
Incredible EPDG collection. I'm only at 97 different with Carl Lundgren Chicago SGC 60 as the highlight of my EPDG set. Still searching for a Dahlen Boston EPDG to complete my Elite 11. Keep up the great progress.
Ron
My story isn't overly interesting. I started collecting the monster in June of 2013 while on vacation in Destin, Florida. I bought a Tim Jordan batting PSA 3 from PWCC. Paid $26. I basically bought anything I felt was a good price for the condition and then started buying lots to help knock off the needed list. Condition varied.
Last card I bought to get to 520 was a Cobb red portrait with an Old Mill back. It's a PSA 2mk with a stamp on the back. Beautiful card for the grade.
Since then I've been upgrading my set when I find good deals.
Also, back in 2014, I won about 15 EPDGs that were individually listed auctions from JustCollect. Either they or their consignors had purchased a large EPDG lot from REA and was breaking it up. I sat on those until the fall of 2015 and decided to try to get to 100 EPDGs. Then it became 200 EPDGs. Not sure how far I will go but I currently am at 217 unique ones. I need to update my collage, 3 more need to be added.....apologies on the size of the picture if it skews the screen. I've only added about 5 this year. Been tough finding ones I need. Condition varies from trimmed sides and top to highest graded examples.....Lindaman SGC 70, Fiene throwing PSA 6, and my favorite Frank Smith PSA 6. Don't have any of the biggest HOFers, and probably won't end up buying those, but am happy I've gotten this far. Gonna have to sell them off at some point.
http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab121/thromdog/t206/total.jpg
tedzan
05-10-2017, 09:22 AM
Hi Jeff
Great story and an awesome display of your EPDG cards.
Thanks for sharing them with us.
TED Z
.
tedzan
05-11-2017, 04:23 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/GreenCobbSovereign12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/JohnsonPitchingSovereign12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/DuffySovereign460x14.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/MattyWCxSweetCap12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChaseRedHINDUx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CobbBatSovereign350x13.jpg
I will borrow the last lines from the 1974 movie "The Sting"......when Paul Newman asks Robert Redford (after they pulled off their elaborate "Sting" on Robert Shaw)..........
"Was that as good as it gets ?"
Redford replies..... "It's not enough" .....then smiles, and says ....."but it's damn close".
That scene reflects my feelings regarding my completion of the T206 PIEDMONT set. So, I was motivated to put together the SOVEREIGN set. This adventure was significant,
as it resulted in providing us a greater understanding of American Lithographic's printing of the T206 cards. Why did I choose the SOVEREIGN cards ?
I always favored the GREEN colored T206 backs (also I've collected AMERICAN BEAUTY sub-sets). So, I figured a SOVEREIGN set would be relatively easy to complete, since
Lundgren, Magie, Plank, Wagner, Joe Doyle Nat'l, the 48 subjects in the Southern League series, and Demmitt & O'Hara (St Louis) were NOT printed with SOVEREIGN backs.
Well, I was very mistaken. This was quite a challenge in itself. Specifically because I had to determine which T206 cards were not printed with SOVEREIGN backs (No-Prints).
However, I am very happy to say that my list of No-Prints have withstood the test of time. It took me approx. 11 months to complete this set of 402 different subjects. Refer
to this thread...... Mission Accomplished....SOVEREIGN only set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=87411")
Besides the 55 subjects mentioned above, the following T206 subjects are SOVEREIGN no-prints......
Abstein
Adkins
Arrellanes
Barbeau
Barger
Becker
Bliss
Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell
Charles
Clark
Clymer
Collins (Minn.)
Cross
Davidson
Delehanty (Louisville)
Demmitt (New York American)
Dessau
Dorner
Downey (fielding)
Elberfeld (portrait-Washington)
Engle
Evans
Fletcher
Freeman
Ganzel
Graham (St Louis AL)
Gray
Groom
Hayden
Hoffman (St Louis AL)
Hunter
Jones (portrait Detroit)
Kleinow (Boston)
La Porte
Lattimore
Lord
Lundgren (Kansas City)
Maddox
Maloney
Marshall
Mattern
McAleese
McBride
McElveen
McLean
Milan
Miller (Pittsburg)
Mullen (portrait)
Murray (bat)
Myers (bat)
Nattress
Phillippe
Puttman
Rhodes
Ritter
Rudolph
Schirm
Schlafly
Schreck
Shannon
Sharpe
Frank Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (bat)
Starr
Willett
This SOVEREIGN set has proven to be a very timely and significant project in that it revealed to us the following important insights
into American Lithographic's printing of the various series in their T206 production. Refer to Posts #2 & 4 here for the details.
TED Z
.
Ronnie73
05-11-2017, 07:04 PM
Incredible Sovereign story. I've known of your Sovereign set from past posts over the years but never knew it only took you 11 months and that's with trying to figure out what exactly existed. One word, impressive. I'm currently at 75% complete and it's looking like Cobb 460 will be my last one on the list too.
* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/GreenCobbSovereign12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/JohnsonPitchingSovereign12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/DuffySovereign460x14.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/MattyWCxSweetCap12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChaseRedHINDUx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CobbBatSovereign350x13.jpg
These six are samples of some of my nicer SOVEREIGN cards
I will borrow the last lines from the 1974 movie "The Sting"......when Paul Newman asks Robert Redford (after they pulled off their elaborate "Sting" on Robert Shaw)..........
"Was that as good as it gets ?"
Redford replies..... "It's not enough" .....then smiles, and says ....."but it's damn close".
That scene reflects my feelings regarding my completion of the T206 PIEDMONT set. So, I was motivated to put together the SOVEREIGN set. This adventure was significant,
as it resulted in providing us a greater understanding of American Lithographic's printing of the T206 cards. Why did I choose the SOVEREIGN cards ?
I always favored the GREEN colored T206 backs (also I've collected AMERICAN BEAUTY sub-sets). So, I figured a SOVEREIGN set would be relatively easy to complete, since
Lundgren, Magie, Plank, Wagner, Joe Doyle Nat'l, the 48 subjects in the Southern League series, and Demmitt & O'Hara (St Louis) were NOT printed with SOVEREIGN backs.
Well, I was very mistaken. This was quite a challenge in itself. Specifically because I had to determine which T206 cards were not printed with SOVEREIGN backs (No-Prints).
However, I am very happy to say that my list of No-Prints have withstood the test of time. It took me approx. 11 months to complete this set of 402 different subjects. Refer
to this thread...... Mission Accomplished....SOVEREIGN only set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=87411")
Besides the 55 subjects mentioned above, the following T206 subjects are SOVEREIGN no-prints......
Abstein
Adkins
Arrellanes
Barbeau
Barger
Becker
Bliss
Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell
Charles
Clark
Clymer
Collins (Minn.)
Cross
Davidson
Delehanty (Louisville)
Demmitt (New York American)
Dessau
Dorner
Downey (fielding)
Elberfeld (portrait-Washington)
Engle
Evans
Fletcher
Freeman
Ganzel
Graham (St Louis AL)
Gray
Groom
Hayden
Hoffman (St Louis AL)
Hunter
Jones (portrait Detroit)
Kleinow (Boston)
La Porte
Lattimore
Lord
Lundgren (Kansas City)
Maddox
Maloney
Marshall
Mattern
McAleese
McBride
McElveen
McLean
Milan
Miller (Pittsburg)
Mullen (portrait)
Murray (bat)
Myers (bat)
Nattress
Phillippe
Puttman
Rhodes
Ritter
Rudolph
Schirm
Schlafly
Schreck
Shannon
Sharpe
Frank Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (bat)
Starr
Willett
This SOVEREIGN set has proven to be a very timely and significant project in that it revealed to us the following important insights
into American Lithographic's printing of the various series in their T206 production. Refer to Posts #2 & 4 here for the details.
TED Z
.
tedzan
05-11-2017, 08:20 PM
Incredible Sovereign story. I've known of your Sovereign set from past posts over the years but never knew it only took you 11 months and that's with trying to figure out what exactly existed. One word, impressive. I'm currently at 75% complete and it's looking like Cobb 460 will be my last one on the list too.
Thanks, Ron
I acquired 5 of the 6 super-prints with the rare SOVEREIGN 460 back pretty early in the game. It took me 2 more years to get the red Cobb with the SOVEREIGN 460 back.
Wish you good luck in finding one.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1911SovereignCobbSGCx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1911SovereignCobbSGCx50b.jpg
TED Z
.
tedzan
05-12-2017, 09:39 PM
Hi Carl
Thanks for posting your T206 story. I always advise collectors to acquire large lots of T206's when starting their sets. So, you were very smart to pick up the large lot of 200 cards.
So, don't have any regrets. These current "crazy" prices on Cobb's (and, other major T206 stars), in my opinion will not continue. Prices will eventually fall back to normal.
And, thanks for the kind words.
TED Z
.
tedzan
05-13-2017, 03:08 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
. .http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206EddiePlankSC150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/MattyWCxSweetCap11xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChanceDahlenWaddellCYoung12x.jpg
........... Two Pennsylvania guys ........
In 2006, when I broke up my 2nd set to start up the PIEDMONT set, I also began setting aside the SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 cards from the 2nd set. These SWEET CAP
cards were a low priority then in my collection. Anyhow, I chose the SWEET CAP, Factory #30 cards because I was certain 469 different subjects would complete this set. At
that point I had approx. 150 different SWEET CAP/30 cards. This 469 number was easily determined by this equation......
524 - [Joe Doyle Nat'L, Kleinow (Boston), Lundgren (Cubs), Magie, Smith (Chi & Bos), Demmitt & O'Hara (St Louis vars.), Southern Leaguers (48)] = 469
Furthermore, lengthy research figuring out those tricky No-Prints (as I had to deal with in the SOVEREIGN set) was NOT necessary with this SWEET CAP/30 set. By Oct 2008,
I had 467 different SWEET CAP/30 cards (only missing Plank and Wagner). Check-out thread.... MISSION (99.5%) ACCOMPLISHED....all-Sweet Cap T206 set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=90968&highlight=mission+accomplished)
I have no illusions of ever getting the Wagner card. But, I had hopes of eventually acquiring the Plank card. Eddie Plank is one of my all-time favorite pitchers in baseball.
My patience paid off last year, when an opportunity arose to acquire a T206 collection (81 cards), which included a SWEET CAPORAL 150, Factory #30 Plank. I worked an
interesting deal with my friend on this collection. Now, as far as I am concerned, this SWEET CAP set is "complete" with 468 cards.
For more info check-out this thread.... SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set....includes Plank (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=228242)
Hey guys
How's about some show-n-tell regarding your T206 collections.....we've had some very interesting stories so far.....so, tell us all about your T206 experiences.
TED Z
.
Pat R
05-13-2017, 08:33 PM
When I started collecting T206's I never had intentions of completing the
set and I still don't. As a matter of fact I recently sold over 100 from
my collection. I still have well over 500 T206's but nowhere near a complete
set.
I do have a fascination with print oddities/flaws though. When Steve B
started the PD150 plate scratch thread and explained how someday
they might be able to establish some sheet or partial sheet layouts I was
hooked.
I currently have 243 different PD150 plate scratches, 307 total with
the duplicates.
273025
273026
I also like to collect front print oddities like this Willett.
273027
Tenney with a broken Y in the NY on his shirt.
273031
Back oddities like the Fact 30's on the bottom.
273028
or a reoccurring flaws like the one found on the back of certain Brain, Ganzel and Dygert.
273029
273030
tedzan
05-15-2017, 08:06 AM
Pat R.
You do have a different approach to collecting T206's than most, and it's quite interesting.
Thanks for posting,
TED Z
.
tedzan
05-15-2017, 07:54 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *
Hey guys, anyone here interested in smoking a 107 year old American Beauty cigarette :)
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AB460ChasSteiSchlOverWagnWilh12.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/abcigpackt206.jpg
.................. Some of the really tough to find AB 460 cards in this sub-set ...................
Since 2005, my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 project has been a work in progress to complete this 74 subject run....... AMERICAN BEAUTY's....T205's and/or T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=158706)
Prior posts here tell of my 3 "completed" T206 sets since 2005. But to date, I have 70 of the 74 subjects** needed to complete this AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set.
This run is tougher than most T206 experts rate it. After 12 years, I still need Camnitz (arms above head)....L Doyle (portrait)....McGraw (portrait-cap), and
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
The Exclusive 12 guys are the easiest AB 460 cards to find. But, certain cards are extremely rare. Besides the 6 examples shown above and these 3 here....there are
Lajoie (bat), Lake (ball), McQuillan (bat), Murray (portrait), Payne, etc......
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/CobbBatOffAB460x50.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/AB460JenningsSGC60.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/AB460SmithChiBost50x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/AB460JenningsHand50xbx.jpg
AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 check-list........74 subjects
350/460 Series.....................28 subjects
Berger
Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)
460-only Series.....................46 subjects
Abbaticcio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (pitching)
Bergen (catching)
Bescher (hands in air)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (arms at side)
Camnitz (arms above head)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Doyle (portrait)
Duffy
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hand on waist)
Hummell
Lake (with ball)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (bat)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schulte (back view)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)
H. Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait-cap)
Note **
Other sources claim there are 75 subjects in the AB 460 sub-set. However, my research indicates that 74 subjects were printed with the AB 460 backs.
The subject of contention is Ames (hands over head). I am confident in my research. So, I will reward anyone in this forum $200, if they can show me
this AMES card with a legitimate AB 460 back.
TED Z
.
Ronnie73
05-15-2017, 08:52 PM
Those are some nice AB460 numbers Ted. This back is probably the least back in my collection along with everything after that like Hindu, CB's, etc. I did have 11 but now down to 10. I traded a friend an ungraded (poor) Murray Portrait for an Al Shaw Piedmont 350 PSA 2. I only had $100 invested so I did pretty good. My AB350 set is coming along and I will most likely complete that before the with frames and the 460's.
Ted, have you ever thought of going after an Old Mill set? I think that would be right up there compared to a Hindu or CB back set. Big set and lots of low pop's. I just add one here and there and try not to focus on it because of the real difficulty. I'm a 141 plus all SL'ers. Out of that, between 30-40 print group one's.
tedzan
05-16-2017, 08:10 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *
Hey guys, anyone here interested in smoking a 107 year old American Beauty cigarette :)
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AB460ChasSteiSchlOverWagnWilh12.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/abcigpackt206.jpg
.................. Some of the really tough to find AB 460 cards in this sub-set ...................
A T206 collector, who has 60% of the cards in his AB 460 run, asked me which of the 74 cards are the toughest ?
I'll start with this Cobb. While there are as many as 10 known with the AB 460 back, this Cobb is very tough to find simply because of the "supply vs demand" factor.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/CobbBatOffAB460x50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/AB460JenningsHand50xbx.jpg
List of the scarcest AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 subjects. Only 1 (or 2) examples of each are known.
350/460 Series
Cobb (bat off shoulder) ...........less than 10 examples
Jennings (one hand)
Lajoie (bat)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Wilhelm (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)
460-only Series
Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Camnitz (arms above head)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Doyle (portrait)
Howell (hand on waist)
Lake (with ball)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
Murray (portrait)
Oldring (batting)
Payne
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (portrait)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)
I would appreciate any additional inputs to this list.
TED Z
.
tedzan
05-17-2017, 07:58 AM
Those are some nice AB460 numbers Ted. This back is probably the least back in my collection along with everything after that like Hindu, CB's, etc. I did have 11 but now down to 10. I traded a friend an ungraded (poor) Murray Portrait for an Al Shaw Piedmont 350 PSA 2. I only had $100 invested so I did pretty good. My AB350 set is coming along and I will most likely complete that before the with frames and the 460's.
Ted, have you ever thought of going after an Old Mill set? I think that would be right up there compared to a Hindu or CB back set. Big set and lots of low pop's. I just add one here and there and try not to focus on it because of the real difficulty. I'm a 141 plus all SL'ers. Out of that, between 30-40 print group one's.
Hi Ron
The OLD MILL's don't excite me....except for the Exclusive 12 cards with OLD MILL backs. As you know, these OLD MILL's are very difficult to find.
But, I enjoy this challenge. Recently, I started looking for them, and I have only 4 of them......
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/OldMillCrandall25x.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/OMMcGrawFordDevore50x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/OldMillCrandall25xb.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/OMMcGrawFordDevore25b.jpg
Not too pretty; however, I'll take them any way that I can find them :)
TED Z
.
tedzan
05-18-2017, 10:57 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/GreenCobbSovereign12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Ex12UzitHinduAB460x13.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206DRUMx38bx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/MattyPortraitx13.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpg
Circa 2000, a bunch of T206's were in circulation that were FAKES. These T206's were so professionally altered that they not only fooled collectors; but, also fooled the Grading
Company's (PSA, SGC, etc.)....who graded these fakes and gave some of them high numbers. Check-out this thread....Rebacked T206's on Ebay (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=63710)
Most in the hobby called these altered T206's...."re-backed". I choose to call them "re-fronted" DRUM's, red HINDU's, LENOX's, etc. A professional paper restorer told me how it
was easy to interchange the front / back combo of a T206. By first removing the front of a common T206 image from a card whose back was a rare one (DRUM, HINDU, LENOX,
UZIT, etc., etc.). Then, very precisely appliqueing the desired front onto the card with the rare back. He said there are adhering mediums that are undetectable in this process.
Fortunately, there were some of us collectors that instantly discerned that these T206's were fakes because their front / back combos were impossible.
Examples......
Matty (portrait) with a red HINDU back (PSA & SGC graded)
Red Cobb with DRUM back (PSA graded)
Green Cobb with a red HINDU back
Green Cobb with a CYCLE 350 back
Johnson (pitching) with BROAD LEAF 350 back
We were lucky......whoever did a beautiful job of altering these T206's was totally ignorant of the T206 Series structure and its associated backs.
There were many of these fakes in circulation, if you recall others than the 5 which I have listed here, please give us your inputs.
Thanks,
TED Z
.
tedzan
05-19-2017, 06:40 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/GreenCobbSovereign12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Ex12UzitHinduAB460x13.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206DRUMx38bx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/MattyPortraitx13.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpg
Circa 2000, a bunch of T206's were in circulation that were being sold on Ebay (and at Shows) that were FAKES. These T206's were very professionally altered, and these cards
fooled many collectors (and even the Grading Co's.). Except some of us, who instantly recognized these cards had front / back combos that were impossible.
Here is an updated list with some more examples which were reported to me via emails. So far, we have identified these 7 fake T206 cards......
Matty (portrait) with a red HINDU back (PSA and SGC graded)
Matty (portrait) with a SOVEREIGN 460 back (PSA graded)
Red Cobb with DRUM back (PSA graded)
Green Cobb with a red HINDU back
Green Cobb with a CYCLE 350 back
Johnson (pitching) with BROAD LEAF 350 back
Johnson (portrait) with BROAD LEAF 350 back
http://i.imgur.com/JiH0X.jpg
Courtesy Chris Brown
There were many more of these fakes in circulation. If you recall others than the 7 which I have listed here, please provide us your inputs.
Thanks,
TED Z
.
jerrys
05-19-2017, 06:51 PM
Hi Ted - I can not find an answer to this T206 question:
Two Doolan Cards, one Doolin Card - they are same person. Any idea why there was not a correction?
273695
Jerry,
They did fix the error, but not until the 350 series. The Doolin portrait was first printed in 1909. When they printed his other two cards, starting in 1910, the correction was made.
Scott Gross wrote a fun article for my website about all the misspelled names in the t206 set (shameless plug :D)
http://www.thatt206life.com/2017/04/30/t206-misspelled-names-sorry-pal-we-got-your-name-wrong/
tedzan
05-19-2017, 07:20 PM
H Jerry
Mickey Doolin's portrait card (issued in the 150 Series) is correct.
His 350 Series card (fielding pose) and his 350/460 Series card (batting pose) are mis-spelled.
They had it right the 1st time....anyone's guess why his subsequent cards had it wrong ?
TED Z
.
tedzan
05-19-2017, 07:27 PM
Baseball-Reference.com has his name listed as Mickey Doolin.
What am I missing here ?
TED Z
.
KingFisk
05-19-2017, 07:30 PM
Hi Carl
Thanks for posting your T206 story. I always advise collectors to acquire large lots of T206's when starting their sets. So, you were very smart to pick up the large lot of 200 cards.
So, don't have any regrets. These current "crazy" prices on Cobb's (and, other major T206 stars), in my opinion will not continue. Prices will eventually fall back to normal.
And, thanks for the kind words.
TED Z
.
Thanks, Ted! That was a reassuring post. Much appreciated.
Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
jerrys
05-19-2017, 09:03 PM
Baseball-Reference.com has his name listed as Mickey Doolin.
What am I missing here ?
TED Z
.
Just curious to find out why there are two spellings. Thanks.
tedzan
05-19-2017, 09:30 PM
Just curious to find out why there are two spellings. Thanks.
Jerry
Now I, myself am confused. One source says his name is spelled "Doolin" and another source says the correct spelling is "Doolan".
We know that the T3 cards were printed after the T206 cards. So, did American Litho finally get it right when they printed the T3's ?
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/T3Doolan25x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/T3Doolan25xB.jpg
TED Z
.
sreader3
05-19-2017, 09:34 PM
Ted & Jerry,
Whoever wrote his Wiki thinks his name was Doolin. I'm guessing they did the research and know the story.
Scot
Mickey Doolin Wiki:
Michael Joseph "Mickey" Doolin (May 7, 1880 in Ashland, Pennsylvania – November 1, 1951 in Orlando, Florida), was a professional baseball player who played shortstop in the Major Leagues from 1905 to 1918. During his career, he played for the Philadelphia Phillies, Chicago Whales, Chicago Cubs, New York Giants, and Brooklyn Robins. His name is often misspelled as "Doolan" due to many of his baseball cards being misspelled.
sreader3
05-19-2017, 09:34 PM
What do you call it when a series of cards initially has a player's name correct and then creates an error thinking they are making a correction of a perceived error that was not really an error?
Error created through erroneous correction (ECTEC)?
jerrys
05-20-2017, 06:53 AM
My curiosity concerning the Doolan/Doolin confusion started with trying to establish what happened and why there are two 1908-09 Rose Company postcards of the same person. The Doolin was published in the initial issuance (1908) the Doolan sometime later. Why the change? Why issue another card?
In trying to analyze this unusual case I find the 1909 T206 checklist with the same problem. So being there are a million or so T206 collectors perhaps.......
The baseball ref states: Doolin - SABR spells it: Doolan - Wiki=Doolin – Rose Co. makes costly change of printing another card to go from Doolin to Doolan. T206 has both.
There must be some logical conclusion to this dilemma.
273731
Pat R
05-20-2017, 07:54 AM
Does anyone have old box scores to see how they spelled his name?
This is interesting. It never even occurred to me that Doolin could be correct because his name is spelled "Doolan" on both of these cards from 1914-1916. I see that Baseball Reference has it as Doolin.
Bill77
05-20-2017, 12:28 PM
From baseball reference:
Name Note: born Michael Joseph Doolittle, adopted surname sometimes spelled Doolan
So maybe its both or he changed his name a second time as Doolin is close to Dooin and he didn't want anyone to confuse him with Red Dooin.
Pat R
05-20-2017, 05:09 PM
These auto's aren't authenticated but both use the Doolan spelling.
273835
273836
Also here's a ball with Doolan.
http://rarebooks.library.nd.edu/exhibits/baseball/balls/mccarthy/index.shtml
tedzan
05-21-2017, 07:59 PM
Ted & Jerry,
Whoever wrote his Wiki thinks his name was Doolin. I'm guessing they did the research and know the story.
Scot
Mickey Doolin Wiki:
Michael Joseph "Mickey" Doolin (May 7, 1880 in Ashland, Pennsylvania – November 1, 1951 in Orlando, Florida), was a professional baseball player who played shortstop in the Major Leagues from 1905 to 1918. During his career, he played for the Philadelphia Phillies, Chicago Whales, Chicago Cubs, New York Giants, and Brooklyn Robins. His name is often misspelled as "Doolan" due to many of his baseball cards being misspelled.
Hi Scot
Doolin's very 1st card is a W600 (1906 issue) which identifies him as.....Michael Doolin
And of course, his 1st T206 card spelled Doolin issued with the 150 series cards in 1909.
All T-cards, E-cards, Gum-cards (Mello-Mint) subsequent to the above two cards identify him as Doolan.
TED Z
.
tedzan
05-22-2017, 07:10 PM
* * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * *
v...................................... 5-card proof strip with Wagner ......................................v
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/5cardWagnerStripX19x.jpg. . . .http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpg
The most significant find of T206 "proofs" is the unique Wagner 5-card strip (shown here). Art Martineau mentioned it in a 2005 thread.... T206 proofs (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=77220)
This 5-card strip was first acquired by Bill Zimpleman and Wayne Varner in the Pittsburgh area in the 1970's. They accquired it from a gentleman who had
purchased Wagner's house. In the early 1980's, Barry Halper acquired this strip from Bill and Wayne.
Here is a reprint card of another unique T206 proof....Eddie Collins (with bat) that American Litho (ALC) did not issue (for whatever reasons). My theory is
Collins (like his boss, Connie Mack, and Eddie Plank) didn't do tobacco in any form. However, ALC printed Collins in the 350 Series. So much for my theory.
Had ALC continued this Collins card into their regular production line, they would have printed it with a PIEDMONT 150 back first. And, perhaps some of the
other T-brands in the 150 Series. At the start of each Series press runs, the PIEDMONT backs were printed first on the T206's (and, at greater number than
any of the other T-brands).
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/atbateddiecollins.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/T206PuttmanPROOFbb.jpg
I certainly ain't any kind of expert regarding T206 proofs. This Puttman proof is the only one I have....so, I leave it up to you guys with all these proofs to
show-n-tell us all about them.
Where's Johnny V when we need him :)
TED Z
.
mrvster
05-23-2017, 09:45 PM
AWESOME THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have been meaning to post in it....
I have been super busy, but have been meaning to write a few articles.....especially on proofs:)
I will post tomorrow on the 206 proofs....you are onto something! ;)
150 subjects hint hint:D
tedzan
05-24-2017, 11:12 AM
Hey Johnny
Great to hear from you.
Your the man to tell us about these T206 proofs.
Take care, good buddy
TED Z
.
tedzan
05-27-2017, 08:48 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *
.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/UZITMcGrawMerkle8x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/UZITWiltse19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/UZITHerzogSGC45x19.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McGrawGloveUZITbx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/MerkleUZITx19b.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/UZITWiltse301.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/HerzogUZITx27b.jpg
T206's with the UZIT back were issued in the Spring of 1911. The UZIT and the AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 backs were printed together at the tail-end of the T206 press runs.
On display are the six UZIT cards in my collection. I'd say the UZIT back is the 2nd toughest of the various T206 T-brands. Of course, the BROAD LEAF 460 is the 1st.
Now, I'm not dismissing the brown LENOX, nor the brown OLD MILL cards. But in my opinion, these two backs resulted from printer's mistaken ink application (most likely
a one time error in the printing process). They were not regular issue cards. Otherwise, we would see many more of them.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/schaeferUZITx25b.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/schaeferUZITx25.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/uzit.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CapWiltseUZITx25x.jpg
58 subjects with the UZIT back have been confirmed to date (5/31/2018).
350/460 series...............................28 subjects
Berger
Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball-St Louis)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Doc White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)
I am quite confident that the above list of 28 of the 350/460 subjects is complete (as it coincides with the confirmed
list of AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 subjects for the 350/460 series).
460-only series..............................30 subjects
Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Howie Camnitz (arms up)
Harry Camnitz (arms side)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Frill
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Hummel
Lake (ball-St Louis)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)
Oldring (bat)
Overall (blue sky)
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Schulte (back view)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)
Tinker (bat on)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)
The 460-only series list is still a work in progress....I expect that as many as 16 more UZIT cards from this series will eventually be discovered.
Stay tuned....in the next post here more stuff regarding the UZIT cards will be presented.
TED Z
.
tedzan
05-30-2017, 07:06 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/UZITMcGrawMerkle8x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/UZITWiltse19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/UZITHerzogSGC45x19.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpg
At the beginning of 1911, American Litho (ALC) launched their Gold-Border series of cards. The T80 cards depicting worldwide Military subjects was one of the first issues.
The artwork of the T80's is very distinctive, and their gold borders are quite ornate. By the Spring of 1911, ALC had concluded their T206 press runs. Last batch of T206's
were printed circa Jan > March 1911 with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, LENOX (black & brown**), and UZIT backs. These T206 subjects were from Group B (re Post 8) of the
350/460 series and subjects from the 460-only series.
T80 cards
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T80ColCav2ScotchHiAdjGen25.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/LenoxUzitCairoMonTolstoi25b.jpg......also, T80's exist with extremely rare OLD MILL backs
Now imagine this...... opening a LENOX (or UZIT) cigarette pack in the Spring of 1911 and finding a T206 card and a T80 card in it.... WOW ! !
An ALC ledger sheet (dated Feb 1911) exists instructing ATC employees at Factory #30 to insert both a T206 and a T80 in a LENOX (or UZIT)
cigarette pack.
Indeed, 1911 was a very ambitious year for American Lithographic in terms of Tobacco premiums. Listed here are some of the sets produced in 1911......
T201 cards
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/ameccacobb_1.jpg
Fez Cigarette issue, T77 Lighthouse cards, and T205 cards......the T205 Minor Leaguer's (12-cards) were printed & issued circa..Fall/ Winter of 1911.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/afezhassant205.jpg
Circa 1911 Gold-Border Tobacco premiums
208 = T205 Baseball
50 = T42 Birds
30 = T43 Birds
50 = T56 Emblems
100 = T57 Fables
50 = T69 Historic Homes
50 = T80 Military Series
50 = T99 Sights & Scenes of the World
T99 Sights & Scenes of the World
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T99goldParthenon50x.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T99goldParthenon50xb.jpg
I'll gladly answer any questions you may have regarding this stuff.
** Note....I will elaborate more on the T206 brown LENOX cards in a future post.
TED Z
.
tedzan
06-04-2017, 05:41 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AB350JohnsonCrawfdBaker12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BreitensteinShaughnessyFoster11x.jpg
On display here are vintage postcards (circa 1910) depicting three of the nine ATC Factory's which manufactured tobacco products during the 1909 - 1911 timeframe.
Also listed are the other five Factory's which produced ATC tobacco brands during this era.
Factory #25, Richmond, VA
ATC tobacco brands...... PIEDMONT, AMERICAN BEAUTY, BROAD LEAF, CAROLINA BRIGHTS, CYCLE, DRUM, OLD MILL, SOVEREIGN, SWEET CAPORAL
.................................................. .................................................. .........................v....... Factory #25 .......v
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/apcRichmondVAfactory25.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/piedmontpackjohnson.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1stT206Chaseblue50xb.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1stT206Chaseblue50x.jpg
Factory #42, Durham, NC
ATC tobacco brands...... AMERICAN BEAUTY, PIEDMONT, SWEET CAPORAL
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/apcfactory42ncdurham.jpg
AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, Factory #42
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/CobbBatOffAB460x50.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/abcigpackt206.jpg
Factory #33, Reidsville, NC
ATC tobacco brand...... Ty Cobb Smoking Tobacco
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/ReidsvilleNCxFactory33.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/bcobbtycobb.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/acobbtycobb.jpg
Factory #30, Brooklyn, NY
ATC tobacco brands...... LENOX, SWEET CAPORAL, TOLSTOI, UZIT
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/SweetCapFactory30xNYpackX.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206PlankSC150x30x.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206PlankSC150x30xb.jpg
. .http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/McGrawGloveUZITbk.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/McGrawGloveUZITxSGC30x.jpg
And, here are the other five Factory's manufacturing ATC tobacco brands during the 1909 - 1911 era......
Factory #6, Middletown, Ohio........ POLAR BEAR
Factory #17, Virginia..................... El PRINCIPE de GALES
Factory #649, New York State....... HINDU, SWEET CAPORAL
I'm including these two Factory's which included 1910 COUPON cards and RED CROSS cards with their Cigarettes. Since these cards were printed by
American Lithographic during 1910-1911 timeframe, and are identical with the T206 cards**. No need for "controversy", guys.
Factory #3, New Orleans, LA.......... COUPON **
Factory #10, Jersey City, NJ........... RED CROSS
Let's see some more pictures of these ATC Factory's....if you have postcards, photos, publications, etc., please post them....thanks.
** Note......the 1910 COUPON cards were printed on "soft" cardboard because they did NOT serve as cigarette pack stiffeners. The initial marketing of
this brand was not in packs, but in cartons labelled "COUPON" Cigarettes which contained 100's of loose cigarettes.
TED Z
.
Hey Ted, some of the Coupon Type-3 cards were distributed from Factory 8. Do you know where that one was located? (I know that type-3s are not T206-similar, but I'm still curious.)
tedzan
06-05-2017, 07:07 PM
Sean
Where Factory #8 was located is a good question.
This I can tell you, that the Factory #8 overprint was applied at the tail-end of the T213-3 press runs (circa 1919). Which would explain why these cards are very rare.
I'm not quite sure where Factory #8 was located in Louisiana (other than New Orleans), so I'll not comment on it. Or for whatever reasons, perhaps ATC may have re-
assigned their New Orleans (Factory # 3) to Factory #8 at the end of WWI.
TED Z
.
tedzan
06-08-2017, 07:57 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Ex12UzitHinduAB460x13.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Ex12Cy460xEPDGxOMx13.jpg
Enjoy the challenge of collecting T206's by their backs ? Let's start with the toughest of the tough regular issue T206's....the BROAD LEAF 460 cards. These cards were printed
ONLY on subjects in the 350/460 series. And, just 35 subjects (of the 63 subjects) in 350/460 series were printed with the BROAD LEAF 460 backs. Furthermore, these same 35
subjects were printed with the rare red HINDU backs.
Near the end of the T206 press runs (circa late 1910-early 1911), American Lithographic separated the 63 subjects in the 350/460 series into 2 print groups (refer to Post #8).
Shown here are the 35 subjects printed with the BROAD LEAF 460 back......
Group A
.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AmesKonet21cards25xx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/MageeYoung14cards14x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/broadleaf460back.jpg
Listed here are the 29 subjects which have been confirmed with the BROAD LEAF 460 back......
Baker
M. Brown (Chicago)
Cobb (red portrait)
Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Magee (bat)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing)
Cy Young (glove)
Listed here are 6 subjects from this group that have yet to be discovered with BL 460 backs.
I expect these T206's will eventually be found with BL 460 backs......
Ames (hands above head)
Bender (no trees)
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Larry Doyle (bat)
NOTE....that the 460-only series subjects were NOT printed with the BROAD LEAF 460 back.
If you have them, show them....never tire of seeing BROAD LEAF 460 cards.
TED Z
.
Ted, here's my one and only. Note: this is an old scan. The card now resides in a PSA holder.
275862
275863
tedzan
06-09-2017, 07:09 AM
Hi Sean
" It Don't Come Easy....you know, it don't come easy " (Ringo Starr, 1971)
We get these BROAD LEAF's in what ever shape their in....cannot afford to be "picky"....this one was mine (traded it recently).
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206MurphyBL460.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206MurphyBL460b.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206MurphyBL460x.jpg
Let's see some more BL 460's....condition is immaterial.
TED Z
.
rjackson44
06-09-2017, 07:50 AM
I love reading anything ted posts makes my day.
tedzan
06-09-2017, 07:09 PM
rjackson44
I appreciate your compliments.
Stayed tuned, more T206 info will be forthcoming.
TED Z
.
tedzan
06-10-2017, 07:36 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Ex12UzitHinduAB460x13.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Ex12Cy460xEPDGxOMx13.jpg
Continuing on the BROAD LEAF 460 theme, this Feb 2006 thread.... T206 Broad Leaf 460 cards (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=80311) is one of the very first (if not the first) to be posted on this subject on Net54.
Check-it-out, it's quite an interesting thread......especially, Art Martineau's post (#35) in which he identifies 26 of the 27 subjects we now know of with BROAD LEAF 460 backs.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/broadleaf460back.jpg . OK, I'll try again....if you got them, show off your BROAD LEAF 460 cards. They certainly are a fine credit to anyone's T206 collection.
TED Z
.
tedzan
06-15-2017, 06:31 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1962SPORTHOBBYIST.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/piedmontpackjohnson.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/BillHeitmanTheMonsterBook.jpg
.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1962SPORTHOBBYISTpage8FN.jpg < < 1st Issue ............ Issued 1980 > > http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/CollinsTheMonsterBookFarahFawcett.jpg
Here is the 1st issue (1962) of The Sport Hobbyist. Charles Brooks and Frank Nagy were it's co-founders. Most of us old-timers have fond memories of Frank Nagy.
Frank ran a mail auction for many decades. I saved his interesting notes (from early 1980's) which he would include with the cards won from his auction. Example:
he would often reduce the amount of your winning bid because the closest bid to it was considerably less than yours. Now, how can you beat that ?
Frank's auction stuff was very eclectic, 19th Century - 1970's cards (all sports and non-sports). I recall winning T206 (Ex) commons for $1 - $2 each. And Cobb's,
Lajoie's, Matty's, and CYoung's, etc. for less than $10 each.
In 1980, Bill Heitman's book "The Monster" was available. This 28-page book was an awesome reference for us guys new to the world of T206's. It provided us a
better understanding of the complexities of this set; and, also enlightened us and motivated us to go after the elusive rare T206 backs.
Having said all this....can you imagine how some of us on this forum were pleasantly surprised in early 2005 when Bill Heitman responded to this Net54 thread....
Possible Heitman Errors (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=76172&page=3)
Here are some more threads that Bill subsequently chimed in on......
T207 Davis blue C (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=76127)
T206 Rare Backs (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=79174&page=6)
REFLECTIONS of YOUTH (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=79133&page=3)
Collecting Exclusive Series of the T206 Set (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=79764)
rarest tobacco card ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=81171&page=2)
And, here's a thread dated March 2007, where Bill chimed in regarding the Wagner strip...... A T206 printing question for Bill Heitman, or anyone ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=84483)
I have some more responses from Bill around the 2005 - 2007 time period. I will add them later.
TED Z
.
tedzan
06-20-2017, 06:50 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Ex12Cy460xEPDGxOMx13.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Ex12UzitHinduAB460x13.jpg
The stylistic design of the CAROLINA BRIGHTS (CB) backs is one of the best of all the T-brands. American Litho printed these backs during their 350-only series press runs.
My research indicates that 132 subjects were printed with the CB backs.
Our Net54 resident expert on the CB's is Brian Weisner....perhaps he may chime in here and share with us his knowledge.
The CAROLINA BRIGHTS cigarettes were manufactured in Wilson, NC....click on this link for a picture of the factory.... CAROLINA BRIGHTS factory (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=107803&highlight=carolina+Brights)
Here are my CAROLINA BRIGHTS cards (I traded Clymer to Brian Weisner some years ago). How about posting some of your CB's here ?
.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/CBdkcapChaseMaddoxArell50xb.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/CBdkcapChaseMaddoxArell.jpg
.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CBclymer100x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CBclymer100xb.jpg
To date, 128 subjects have been confirmed with CAROLINA BRIGHTS.
Abbott
Abstein
Anderson
Arrelanes
Atz
Barbeau
Barger
Barry (A's)
Barry (Milwaukee)
Batch
Beck
Bender (trees)
Blackburne
Bliss
Brain
Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell
Burke
Burns
Bush
Campbell
Carr
Casey
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chappelle
Chase (portrait-blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Clark
Clymer
Cobb (portrait-red)
Collins (A's)
Collins (Minneapolis)
Congalton
Cravath
Cree
Davidson
Delehanty (Louisville)
Demmitt (New York)
Dineen
Downey (fielding)
Dubuc
Dunn (Baltimore)
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Dygert
Easterly
Egan
Evans
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Fiene (portrait)
Fiene (throwing)
Flanagan
Freeman
Ganzel
Gasper
Graham (Boston)
Graham (St Louis)
Gray
Grimshaw
Groom
Hallman
Hannifan
Hartsel
Hinchman (Toledo)
Hoblitzell
Hoffman (Providence)
Hofman
Hulswitt
Jackson
Jones (Detroit)
Kelley
Kisinger
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Kruger
Lattimore
Lavender
Livingstone
Lord
Lundgren (KC)
Maddox
Maloney
Mathewson (dark cap)
Mattern
McAleese
McCormick
McGann
McGinnity
McGlynn
McLean
Miller (Pittsburg)
Milligan
Murray (bat)
Myers (fielding)
Nattress
Oakes
Oberlin
Pfeister
Phillippe
Pickering
Purtell
Puttman
Quillen
Quinn
Rhodes
Rudolph
Schlafly
Schreck
Scott
Shannon
Sharpe
Slagle
Smith (Buffalo)
Speaker
Stanage
Stephens
Strang
Sweeney (Boston)
Tannehill (Washington)
Taylor
Thomas
Titus
Unglaub
Warhop
White (Buffalo)
Wilson
Wright
Zimmerman
This list is still a work in progress. We are nearing completion, as there are only a few more new CAROLINA BRIGHTS to be discovered.
Recognition goes to Brian Weisner and Art Martineau, who have researched the CAROLINA BRIGHTS cards for many, many years.
TED Z
.
rats60
06-20-2017, 08:02 PM
Highest graded Pop 2
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b127/rats60/Image%20501.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/rats60/media/Image%20501.jpg.html)
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b127/rats60/Image%20502.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/rats60/media/Image%20502.jpg.html)
tedzan
06-21-2017, 06:52 AM
Great looking Carolina Brights McAleese.
Thanks for posting it, guy.
TED Z
.
Ronnie73
06-21-2017, 07:26 AM
I'd like to post some pictures but I feel like i'm always the under bidder. So, I don't have any to show. :( I would really like my first CB to be a Hal Chase Blue Portrait.
tedzan
06-21-2017, 07:12 PM
Hi Ron
We may be in for a "fight" for the blue Chase with a Carolina Brights back :)
Currently, my blue Chase run includes 21 different T206 backs......the 2 missing backs in this run are CAROLINA BRIGHTS and DRUM.
Here is my very 1st blue Chase card (acquired in 1981)......
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1stT206Chaseblue50x.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1stT206Chaseblue50xb.jpg
And, here is my more recent blue Chase acquisition (2016)......
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/ChaseRedHINDUx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/ChaseRedHINDUx50b.jpg
TED Z
.
Ronnie73
06-21-2017, 10:53 PM
Hi Ron
We may be in for a "fight" for the blue Chase with a Carolina Brights back :)
Currently, my blue Chase run includes 21 different T206 backs......the 2 missing backs in this run are CAROLINA BRIGHTS and DRUM.
Here is my very 1st blue Chase card (acquired in 1981)......
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1stT206Chaseblue50x.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1stT206Chaseblue50xb.jpg
And, here is my more recent blue Chase acquisition (2016)......
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/ChaseRedHINDUx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/ChaseRedHINDUx50b.jpg
TED Z
.
Very nice Red Hindu. I still need many of the tougher backs such as Broad Leaf's, Carolina Brights, Coupon Type 1, Cycle 460, Drum, Hindu Red, and Lenox's. My first Blue Chase, a PSA 4 Piedmont 42 was acquired in early 2011.
tedzan
06-22-2017, 11:12 AM
Hi Ron
Here's my PIEDMONT 460/42 blue Chase.
All my Pd/42 cards are printed with the light blue ink. Do you have any of them with the dark blue ink ?
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/achasep460factory42.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/ChaseP460factory42b.jpg
TED Z
.
Ronnie73
06-22-2017, 05:39 PM
Hi Ron
Here's my PIEDMONT 460/42.
All my Pd/42 cards are printed with the light blue ink. Do you have any of them with the dark blue ink ?
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/achasep460factory42.jpg..http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/bchasep460factory42.jpg
TED Z
.
Hi Ted, I have two with the darker ink. One is Rube Marquard Pitching Follow Through, and the other is Arlie Latham.
Pat R
06-23-2017, 06:05 AM
One lighter blue and one dark blue.
277566
277567
tedzan
06-23-2017, 07:30 PM
Hey guys,
Pardon me for having a "senior moment". I forgot about the trimmed PIEDMONT 460/42 cards that I have stashed away in the archives.
Obviously, they are the dark blue ink variety.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/Pd42JenConWilLeaSch25x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/Pd42JenConWilLeaSch25xb.jpg
And, here are two more dark blue cards......
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/bakerpiedmont46042.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BakerPIEDMONT460x42.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/abc118.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/DonlinPIEDMONTfactory42.jpg
And, two semi-dark blue ones......
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/ChanceDouhertyP460x42.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/ChanceDoughertyP460x42b.jpg
With the exception of Chase (who is part of my blue Chase run), I've traded (or sold) most of my PIEDMONT factory #42 cards.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/achasep460factory42.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/ChaseP460factory42b.jpg
And, I do recall that I sold this Latham to Adam G.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/LathamP460x42.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/LathamP460x42b.jpg
TED Z
.
Ronnie73
06-23-2017, 08:36 PM
It's interesting to see light and dark ink variations of the same cards. I know it was talked about in a post years ago. I wonder if there's a dark ink variation of blue portrait Hal Chase. I've only seen light ink variations on his card.
Pat R
06-23-2017, 09:52 PM
You can find light and dark variations in all the series with piedmonts, maybe not as often or pronounced as the 42's but the biggest variation in color
are found on the Polar Bears.
277667
tedzan
06-24-2017, 04:30 PM
Hey guys,
Thanks for posting your PIEDMONT 42 cards. We have a Baker P42 card with a light blue back and another with a dark blue back. It reminds me of a theory which
I posted years ago regarding PIEDMONT 42 and UZIT cards.
Oh No ! Another "Ted T206 theory". Do they ever end ? :)
Anyway, PIEDMONT 42 and UZIT backs have very similar blue ink variations. Which leaves me to believe that these two backs were printed simultaneously. We do
have evidence that the UZIT backs were printed and issued in Feb-Mar 1911. This timeline is consistent with ATC's transfer of the Piedmont Cigarette production to
the Liggett & Myers Factory (#42) in Durham, NC.
Here's my two UZIT examples of varying blue ink intensity......
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/schaeferUZITx50b.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/herzogUZITx50b.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/schaeferUZITx50.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/herzogUZITx50.jpg
TED Z
.
tedzan
06-25-2017, 06:30 PM
Double post.
sreader3
06-25-2017, 07:10 PM
Hi Ted,
Sorry I have been AWOL for quite a while.
Interesting theory about P42/Uzit light/dark blue.
Did I miss something w/r/t P42 confirmations?
Are there differences in confirmations between light/dark P42? If so, perhaps a separate checklist is warranted (like Sov 350 Apple/Forest Green).
We could even come up with a name like baby/royal blue (although I hate the term "baby") that emphasizes the difference. That's part of the fun!
Scot
tedzan
06-25-2017, 07:49 PM
Hi Scot
This is my current checklist. Do you have any other 460-only series guys to add to this list from your surveys ?
With the recent discovery of Tinker (bat off shoulder) the confirmed total now is 72 subjects with the PIEDMONT 460, factory #42 back.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/PIEDMONTfactory42bottomline50x.jpg
PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 confirmed list..............72 subjects
350/460 Series............63 subjects (complete)
Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Davis (A's)
Crawford (bat)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (both hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Willis (throwing)
Wiltse (throwing)
CYoung (glove)
460-only Series............9 subjects
Chase (Trophy)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)
Other Net54 sources claim that the following 4 subjects are confirmed.
Chance (batting)
Bergen (catching)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
My research indicates that these 4 subjects are PIEDMONT 460, factory #42 No-Prints.
TED Z
.
Hi Ted,
We could even come up with a name like baby/royal blue (although I hate the term "baby")
Scot
Hey Scot, that's exactly what my girlfriend calls my Plank: the Baby Blue Plank. And I hate that term as well.
sreader3
06-26-2017, 11:57 AM
Hi Ted and Sean,
Nothing to add to Ted's P42 list.
I keep thinking I have seen Murray (Portrait) P42 some time in the distant past but you know how the mind can play tricks about such things. I'm probably confusing it with Schlei (Portrait) or Seymour (Portrait).
Scot
tedzan
06-26-2017, 07:54 PM
I too, some years back thought I has seen a PIEDMONT 460/42 of Murray (portrait).
Since then, though, I realize I was mistaken.
TED Z
.
tedzan
06-26-2017, 07:56 PM
* * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/conniemacke96.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1940PbConnieMack.jpg
Connie Mack was a staunch anti-tobacco guy, who did not want his image portrayed on tobacco cards. **
Here's his E96 card. And, of course he can be found on various E-type cards. One of notoriety is the E104-1 set which features the 1910 World Champions A's.
Connie Mack was quite thrilled about this set of cards, as is noted in his Biography **. The same printing firm also produced the Cullivan's Fireside (T208) set,
which of course is a tobacco issue.
Connie Mack recruited most of his ballplayers from College. He felt they had better training and they could think better than players from the farm system. He
would often personally scout the College guys, or his brother (Tom) would.
** Note....Connie Mack (and the Early Years of Baseball), Norman Macht
Hey guys
I highly recommend this book. While reading it, you'll imagine the guys in your T206 set come alive. Almost every player from that era is covered in this book.
TED Z
.
tedzan
06-26-2017, 08:13 PM
* * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1911T201ThomasCoombs25b.jpg . .http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/coombse98.jpg
Connie Mack recruited most of his ballplayers from College. He felt they had better training and they could think better than players from the farm system.
Jack Coombs is a perfect example of Connie's recruiting style. Jack was a 4 sport (baseball, basketball, football and track) athlete at Colby College (Maine).
Tom Mack (Connie's brother) scouted Jack during his College days. In his senior year (1905), Jack signed with the A's. His first 4 years, Jack's pitching record
was unimpressive. Then in 1910, Jack's W-L record was an amazing 31-9 with 1.30 ERA. Furthermore, he won 3 games in the World Series defeating the Cubs.
In the Fall of 1910, American Lithographic was designing their 460-only series cards; therefore, why didn't they include Jack Coombs in this series ? Given, the
tremendous year he had. I do not really understand why he is missing in the T206 set.
Incidentally, Coombs won 28 games in 1911, and 21 games in 1912. WOW !....80 games won in 3 consecutive years. **
Is that a record, or what ?
Incidentally, for whatever reason, Jack Coombs is not featured in the E104-1 set, nor the 1910 Cullivan's Fireside (T208) set, both of which feature the 1910
World Champions A's. The same printing firm produced both of these sets.
** ....Connie Mack (and the Early Years of Baseball), Norman Macht
TED Z
.
tedzan
06-27-2017, 10:24 PM
* * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * *
Shoeless Joe Jackson
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/HinduJoeJacksonNewOrleans.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/HinduJoeJacksonNOb.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T202LordTannehill50x.jpg
Connie Mack recruited Joe Jackson in 1908, and Joe started with the Philadelphia A's in Sept 1908. Joe's style just did not fit in with the "College Boys" on the A's.
Part of the problem (believe it, or not) was that some Americans were still "fighting" the Civil War. Check-out the players in your T206 set and you'll discover that
very few of them were from the "deep South". Of course Cobb is one of these few Southerners. But, Cobb was sort of a unique dude. **
Joe played in only 10 games for the A's (1908 & 1909). Connie Mack traded Joe to Cleveland in July 1910. 1911 was Joe's 1st full Major Lge. season (147 games).
Joe was amazing....233 Hits for a .403 BA. So, the real question to any one on this forum is....why wasn't Joe in subsequent T-card sets ? We know that American
Lithographic (ALC) was introducing T205 cards as late as the Fall/Winter of 1911. But, where was Shoeless Joe ? ?
Then in 1912, I would think ALC would have included Joe in their T202 set. But hold it for a moment....is this Joe in this T202 centerfold sliding into 3rd base ?
** ....Connie Mack (and the Early Years of Baseball), Norman Macht
Smoky Joe Wood
Info forthcoming....stay tuned.
TED Z
.
tedzan
06-29-2017, 07:23 PM
* * * * * * * T206 Reference, Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * *
Smoky Joe Wood
From 1908 - 1910, Smoky Joe's performance pitching for Boston (AL) was less than impressive. Nevertheless, during this timeframe American Lithographic
was planning, designing, and printing the 388 different subjects for the T206 set. They included Smoky Joe's battery mates (Bill Carrigan & Tubby Spencer)
in the T206 set....but no Joe.
Interestingly, Smoky Joe is even featured in the 1909 American Caramel (E91-C) set. So, I really don't understand why he was not included in the T206 set.
Anyone on this forum have any thoughts regarding this omission ?
Wood won 23 games in 1911. Then followed it up with a 34-5 W-L record with a 1.91 ERA in that "magical" year of 1912. Furthermore, Joe single-handedly
beat the NY Giants in the World Series, winning 3 games (the final game in relief).
I traded my T207 Joe Wood card quite a few years ago (my regret)....so I don't have a card of him to display. I'd appreciate if some one here would post a
Joe Wood card.
TED Z
.
frohme
06-30-2017, 06:13 AM
Per your request, Ted.
tedzan
06-30-2017, 07:09 AM
Hi Mike
Your T207 Joe Wood is a beauty.
Thanks very much for posting it.
TED Z
.
tedzan
07-01-2017, 08:20 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/JohnsonPitchingSovereign12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Sovereign460CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/amattyab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChaseRedHINDUx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AB460JenningsSGC60x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CobbBatSovereign350x13.jpg
350/460 series subjects
The POLAR BEAR tobacco brand was produced in Middletown, Ohio. See Factory #6 in post #5, courtesy of Craig Wright.... POLAR BEAR factory..Middletown, Ohio (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=151290)
The POLAR BEAR cards were printed at American Litho in NYC, and shipped to the Middletown plant to be inserted in POLAR BEAR tobacco packs.
The cards of Demmitt and O'Hara provide us an insight into the timeline when the POLAR BEAR (PB) cards where initially introduced. The New York versions of Demmitt
and O'Hara are 350-only series subjects, which were printed prior to the POLAR BEAR press runs. Demmitt and O'Hara were traded during the off-season. Both started
the 1910 season with their respective St Louis teams. By May 1910, both of them were re-assigned to the Eastern League. Demmitt to Montreal and O'Hara to Toronto.
The St Louis variations of Demmitt and O'Hara are printed ONLY with the POLAR BEAR back. Therefore, it's fair to conclude that the 1st press runs of PB cards occurred
during the Summer of 1910.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/DemmittStLouisSGC.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/PolarBearMcGlynn25x.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/OHaraStLouisSGCA.jpg
Imperial Tobacco (C46)....Eastern (International) League cards
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ac46demmittohara.jpg
There has been some debate as to which series these St Louis variations were printed in ? One school of thought says the Demmitt and O'Hara were included in the 1st
press runs when the 350-only series cards were printed. Another school of thought says that they were printed along during the 2nd press runs with the 350/460 cards.
Apparently, American Litho started their 1st press run of the PB cards circa Summer of 1910. ALC printed the PB backs on 138 subjects of the 350-only series.
The 2nd press run (circa Summer/Fall of 1910) was a major one. ALC printed PB backs on the 60 subjects from the 350/460 Series. It's my contention, that ALC printed
the Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis variations in this PB press run.
Furthermore, these PB press runs of 60 subjects (or 66 subjects, if we include the 6 super-prints) were printed in greater quantities than the 350-only series printing of
PB cards. Proof of this theory is evident in T206 surveys, POP report data, and everyday Ebay listings of PB cards.
Finally, I would estimate that there are at approx. 300 cards each of the Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis variations currently in circulation. What is your guesstimate ?
OK, having said all this, I'm open to hearing your ideas on this subject ?
To date, my checklist indicates 250 subjects have been confirmed with the POLAR BEAR backs.
The following lists these cards according to their respective T206 series.
350-only Series..................138 subjects
Abbott
Adkins
Anderson
Arellanes
Armbruster
Atz
Barbeau
Barger
Barry (A's)
Barry (Milwaukee)
Batch
Beck
Beckley
Bescher (portrait)
Blackburne
Bliss
Brain
Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell
Burke
Bush
Carr
Carrigan
Casey
Chappelle
Clancy
Clark
Clymer
Collins (Milwaukee)
Congalton
Cravath
Davidson
Delehanty (Louisville)
Dessau
Dorner
Downey (fielding)
Joe Doyle (hands over head)
Dygert
Easterly
Egan
Engle
Evans
Ferguson
Fiene (portrait)
Flanagan
Freeman
Fromme
Ganzel
Gasper
Graham (Boston)
Graham (St Louis)
Gray
Grimshaw
Groom
Hallman
Hayden
Hinchman (Toledo)
Hoblitzell
Hoffman (Providence)
Hofman
Howard (Chicago)
Hulswitt
Jackson
Jones (Detroit)
Kelley
Kisinger
Kleinow (New York-catching)
Knight (portrait)
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Krause (pitching)
Kroh
Kruger
LaPorte
Lattimore
Lavender
Livingstone
Lord
Maddox
Maloney
Mattern
McGann
McGinnity
McGlynn
McLean
Merritt
Milan
Milligan
Miller (Pittsburg)
Moeller
Moran (Chicago)
Moriarty
Mullen (portrait)
Murray (bat)
Nattress
Oakes
O'Brien
O'Neill
Perring
Pfeister (seated)
Phelps
Phillippe
Pickering
Purtell
Puttman
Quillen
Quinn
Randall
Raymond
Rhoades (arm extended)
Rhodes
Ritter
Rudolph
Schirm
Schlafly
Schreck
Scott
Shannon
Sharpe
Shaw (Providence)
Slagle
Smith (Chicago, white cap)
Smith (Buffalo)
Snodgrass (bat)
Speaker
Stanage
Strang
Jessie Tannehill (Washington)
Taylor
Thielman
Titus
Unglaub
Warhop
White (Buffalo)
Willett
Wright
Irv Young
350/460 series...................58 subjects [plus Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations]
Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Harry Davis (A's)
Demmitt (St Louis American)..........included in this print run
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake, St. Louis (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifeld (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
Nichols (bat)
O'Hara (St Louis Nat'l)....................included in this print run
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (Chicago-pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (throwing)
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (glove)
460-only Series..................46 subjects
Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bergen (catching)
Bescher (hands over head)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (hands over head)
Camnitz (arm at side)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Duffy
Larry Doyle (portrait)
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hand at waist}
Hummel
Lake, St. Louis (ball)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (batting)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Schulte (back view)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)
H. Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait-cap)
Six Super-Prints
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)
TED Z
.
Pat R
07-01-2017, 09:06 PM
Ted, I disagree with classifying Demmitt and O'Hara as 350/460 series
they're 350 only subjects.
tedzan
07-02-2017, 08:14 AM
The cards of Demmitt and O'Hara provide us an insight into the timeline when the POLAR BEAR (PB) cards where initially introduced. The New York versions of Demmitt
and O'Hara are 350-only series subjects, which were printed prior to the POLAR BEAR press runs. Demmitt and O'Hara were traded in the off-season. Both started
the 1910 season with their respective St Louis teams. By May 1910, both of them were re-assigned to the Eastern League. Demmitt to Montreal and O'Hara to Toronto.
TED Z
Pat
I have very clearly stated that the Demmitt and O'Hara (New York variations) are 350-only subjects. And, I'm NOT "classifying" the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations
as "350/460 series subjects". I am simply proposing that (with respect to the POLAR BEAR runs) they were printed on the same sheet as the 350/460 series subjects.
My research indicates that the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations could NOT have been printed in the 1st press run of the POLAR BEAR cards with the 350-only subjects.
Several surveys have confirmed this fact, because the quantities of POLAR BEAR cards in this press run are relatively low. Whereas, the subsequent press runs of 350/460 sub-
jects were printed with much greater quantities of POLAR BEAR backs. Quantities which are consistent with the numbers of known Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) cards.
Therefore, with respect to the POLAR BEAR population, the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations timeline is very likely circa..Summer/Fall 1910.
I have qualified my 350/460 series Checklist, which I've included the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations, to note that these 2 subjects were also printed with this group.
TED Z
.
Ronnie73
07-02-2017, 09:31 AM
Interesting theory on the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations. I agree that the population numbers are more in line with the 350/460 print group. The sad reality is it makes these two key cards which many consider their base set complete at 518 cards without them, the two most common Polar Bear cards out of the 250 different Polar Bears issued.
I'm currently working on a Polar Bear Back subset. I have about 20 to go. I recommend this subset to others. It is a challenge to put together but not impossible. There really isn't any one card difficult (I don't count Dopner in the set) but the difficulty does follow the print groups. During my journey I can say that Print Group 460 is most difficult and Print Group 350 is a bit more easy. Print Group 350/460 cards are almost always available. Polar Bears are condition rare so for a real challenge, a PSA 4/SGC 50 or higher set would keep you busy. One last thing about the Polar Bear subset is once your done, your nearly 50 percent complete of a 524 card T206 set.
tedzan
07-02-2017, 11:13 AM
* * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Sovereign460CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/amattyab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/JohnsonPitchingSovereign12x.jpg. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpg .http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChaseRedHINDUx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CobbBatSovereign350x13.jpg
350/460 series subjects
Hi Ron
I'm impressed, 230 - POLAR BEAR's....that's quite an achievement.
I will tell you of the other factor (besides the large population of the 350/460 series POLAR BEAR cards) that led me to thinking that American Litho
must of printed Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis variations) in the 350/460 press run.
Check-out my concept of a 72-card sheet arrangement ** of the Sovereign 66 subjects which I like to refer to as the "phantom 350/460 series".
Consider this: Joe Doyle and Bob Rhoades had retired prior to this POLAR BEAR press run. So, those 2 guys are removed and replaced by Demmitt
and O'Hara (St Louis) cards. I say it may have been as simple as that.
As Mel Allen (great ole sportscaster) would say "How's about that ?
v.................................... Six super-prints ....................................v .................................................v Joe Doyle v (2nd row down)
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AT206superprints9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AmeBakBenCobConDav9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AT206superprints9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BurDonDooJDoyLDoyElb9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BerBraBroCraDouDow9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/GrifJennJenJosLajLak9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ManJohnMagMcQMurpNich9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/KleJorKonLeaMcInMul9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/LeifOLeOvePelPfeReul9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/RhoSmitRucSeySnoSta9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/WagWilSweStrCYoSte9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/WilhTinWillWilWillWhi9x.jpg
.................................................. .................................................. ^ Rhoades ^ (above Wilhelm)
** Note I have shown the 6 super-prints Double-Printed on this arrangement because several large surveys have indicated as such.
TED Z
.
Pat R
07-02-2017, 03:17 PM
Ted, In my opinion the Demmitt and O'Hara populations are in line with
many of the 350 series commons.
The majority of the Demmitt and O'Hara's would be graded even in lower grades because of their value while most of the lower grade PB commons wouldn't.
There are 111 Demmitts and 101 O'Hara's in the PSA pop reports. There are several 350 series PB commons
in the 25-30 pop report range with Fred Beck having the most at 37.
On ebay there are four becks and three of the four are ungraded, while
you seldom see an ungraded Demmitt or O'Hara's for sale.
Of the 111 Demmitt's 37 are lower than a two (1 out of 3) and 29 out of the 101 O'Hara's ( 1 out of 3.4) are below a 2.
Only 3 of the 37 (1 out of 12+) of the becks are lower than a 2.
tedzan
07-02-2017, 04:29 PM
Pat
With all due respect....where are you getting your numbers ?
There is absolutely no comparison with 350-only series PB pop #'s vs 350/460 series PB pop #'s.
For example......
DEMMITT.....230 (approx.)
O'HARA........255 (approx.)
350/460 series
COBB red.....232
COBB bat.....141
350-only series
Speaker.........78
Beckley..........54
Bresnahan......51
McGinnity.......46
Furthermore, information from Scot's 100,000+ survey support what I have stated regarding
the differences in printing quantities of PB cards vs 350-only, 350/360. and 460-only series.
TED Z
.
Pat R
07-02-2017, 06:12 PM
Pat
With all due respect....where are you getting your numbers ?
There is absolutely no comparison with 350-only series PB pop #'s vs 350/460 series PB pop #'s.
For example......
DEMMITT.....230 (approx.)
O'HARA........255 (approx.)
350/460 series
COBB red.....232
COBB bat.....141
350-only series
Speaker.........78
Beckley..........54
Bresnahan......51
McGinnity.......46
Furthermore, information from Scot's 100,000+ survey support what I have stated regarding
the differences in printing quantities of PB cards vs 350-only, 350/360. and 460-only series.
TED Z
.
Ted, I agree that the pop #'s are definitely higher in the 350/460 series
compared to the 350 series Polar Bears.
The numbers I provided were from the PSA Polar Bear pop reports comparing the Demmitt and O'Hara to Fred Beck who is also from the 350 series,
Here are the combined PSA and SGC #'s
Demmitt 231 total with 93 lower than a grade of 2 (A , 1 or 1.5) = 1 out of 2.4 below a 2
O'Hara 217 total 80 below a 2 = 1 out of 2.7 below a 2
Beck 56 total 7 below a 2 = 1 out of 8 below a 2
To me this is in line with what I would expect considering how many Demmitt
and O'Hara's would be graded compared to Beck.
Wouldn't you agree that Demmitt and O'Hara would be 3 or 4 times more
likely to be graded than a Fred Beck Polar Bear?
Ronnie73
07-02-2017, 06:21 PM
I figured that I would post population totals of Polar Bears for HOF's graded by PSA and SGC combined, broken down in print groups. Now I already know that these are just numbers and who knows what has been broken out and re-graded, or what backs are on the graded cards before PSA cared to identify them, or that quantities of cards are not counted from SGC because it was before they were keeping track of player pose. The purpose of this is to show a current average of cards across the print groups at this time.
I chose HOF's because they are more likely to be graded than a common player.
PRINT GROUP 2 (350 SERIES)
BECKLEY - 55
BRESNAHAN - BATTING - 49
COLLINS, JIMMY - 58
KELLEY - 60
MCGINNITY - 47
SPEAKER - 69
PRINT GROUP 3 (350-460 SERIES)
BAKER - 133
BENDER - NO TREES - 87
BROWN - CHICAGO ON SHIRT - 141
COBB - BAT OFF - 141
CRAWFORD - WITH BAT - 81
GRIFFITH - BATTING - 108
JENNINGS - ONE HAND - 92
JENNINGS - TWO HANDS - 50
JOHNSON - GLOVE AT CHEST - 155
JOSS - HANDS AT CHEST - 170
LAJOIE - WITH BAT - 125
TINKER - BAT OFF - 67
WILLIS - BATTING - 61
WILLIS - THROWING - 97
YOUNG - WITH GLOVE - 149
PRINT GROUP 4 (460 SERIES)
CHANCE - BATTING - 24
DUFFY - 38
MARQUARD - PITCHING - 78
MCGRAW - GLOVE AT HIP - 37
MCGRAW - PORTRAIT WIT CAP - 34
TINKER - BAT ON - 29
WHEAT - 39
PRINT GROUP 5 (SUPER PRINTS)
CHANCE - YELLOW PORTRAIT - 155
COBB - RED PORTRAIT - 272
EVERS - CHICAGO ON SHIRT - 132
MATHEWSON - DARK CAP - 188
tedzan
07-03-2017, 05:57 PM
Hey T206 set collectors,
Searching for an affordable Demmitt (St Louis) card ?
You might consider a T213-2 Demmitt....the image is exactly the same....if you don't mind the blue caption and it's different team name :)
There is usually one for sale on ebay for about $100 - 200. Just think of the $$$$ you save....you can spend it on more T206's.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T213DemmittWSox50x.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/DemmittStLouisSGC.jpg
TED Z
.
tedzan
07-05-2017, 07:01 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Ex12Cy460xEPDGxOMx13.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Ex12UzitHinduAB460x13.jpg
Pardon me for starting this OLD MILL post by first showing you my very first T206 card which I acquired in 1981 at the famous Willow Grove (PA) Show......but, I'm proud of it.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1stT206Chaseblue50xb.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1stT206Chaseblue50x.jpg ...besides Walter Johnson, Chase is my favorite player from the deadball era.
OLD MILL backs are tricky. They are tough to find on certain 150/350 series subjects. For example....http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206TenneyOLDMILL.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206TenneyOLDMILLb.jpg
OLD MILL's are more available on subjects in the 350-only series. And, OLD MILL's are most available on subjects in the 350/460 series. OLD MILL'S get somewhat tougher
to find on subjects in the 460-only series.
Furthermore, the Exclusive 12 subjects in this latter series are very, very difficult to find with OLD MILL backs......
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1stEx12gpSC460x42x25x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/2ndEx12gpSC460x42x25x.jpg
I do not recall of any major finds of T206 OLD MILL (Major Leaguer) cards. Does any one on this forum know of any ? If so, please chime in and tell us of them.
In recent years, Mark Macrae acquired an original T206 collection located in the Northwest. It included a fairly large number of OLD MILL cards. If I recall these
cards were all from the 350/460 series, and 460-only series.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/COBBbatoffOLDMILLx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/CobbbatOLDMILLb_1.jpg
To date....309 black OLD MILL Major League subjects have been confirmed.
They are listed here as a function of their respective T206 series.
150/350 Series..................123 subjects
Abbaticchio (brown sleeves)
Alperman
Ames (portrait)
Ball (New York)
Bates
Beaumont
Bell (hands over head)
Bender (portrait)
Bergen (bat)
Bowerman
Bradley (portrait)
Bransfield
Bridwell (portrait-no cap)
Bresnahan (portrait)
M. Brown (portrait)
Camnitz (arms folded)
Chance (red portrait)
Chase (pink portrait)
Chase (white cap)
Chesbro
Cicotte
Clarke (portrait)
JJ Clarke
Cobb (green)
Cobb (bat on shoulder)
Conroy (fielding)
Coveleski
Crandall (no cap)
Crawford (throwing)
Criss
George Davis (Chicago)
Harry Davis (A's)
Delehanty (Washington)
Donlin (seated)
Donovan (portrait)
Doolin
Dougherty (portrait)
Durham
Evers (portrait)
Ferris
Flick
Ganley
Gibson
Gilbert
Goode
Griffith (portrait)
Hahn
Hemphill
Herzog (New York)
Hinchman (Cleveland)
Isbell
Jacklitsch
Jennings (portrait)
Johnson (portrait)
F. Jones (portrait)
F. Jones (hands at hips)
Jordan (portrait)
Joss (portrait)
Keeler (portrait)
Keeler (bat)
Killian (pitching)
Kleinow (bat)
Kling
Konetchy (glove high)
Lajoie (portrait)
Lajoie (throwing)
Lake (New York)
Leach (portrait)
Leifield (pitching)
Liebhardt
Lobert
Lumley
Magee (portrait)
Manning (bat)
Marquard (hands at side)
Mathewson (portrait)
Mathewson (white cap)
McGraw (portrait-no cap)
McGraw (pointing)
McIntyre (Brooklyn)
McQuillan (ball in hand)
Merkle (portrait)
Murphy (throwing)
Nicholls (hands on knees)
Niles
Oldring (fielding)
O'Leary (portrait)
Overall (portrait)
Owen
Parent
Pastorius
Powell
Ritchey
Rucker (portrait)
Schlei (catching)
Schmidt (throwing)
Sheckard (no glove)
Shipke
F. Smith (Chicago)
Spade
Stahl (no glove)
Steinfeldt (portrait)
Stone
Stovall (portrait)
Sullivan
L Tannehill (Chicago)
Tenney
Tinker (portrait)
Tinker (hands on knees)
Turner
Waddell (portrait)
Waddell (throwing)
Wagner (bat on left)
Wallace
Walsh
Weimer
Doc White (portrait)
Wilhelm (hands at chest)
Williams
Willis (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-no cap)
CYoung (portrait)
CYoung (bare hand)
350-only Series..................76 subjects
Abbott
Anderson
Atz
Batch
Beck
Bender (trees)
Blackburne
Bliss
Brain
Brown (Washington)
Burke
Burns
Bush
Campbell
Casey
Clark
Collins (A's)
Congalton
Cravath
Cree
Dahlen (Brooklyn)
Dineen
Joe Doyle (hands over head)
Dubuc
Dunn (Baltimore)
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Easterly
Egan
Elberfeld (portrait-Washington)
Fiene (portrait)
Fiene (throwing)
Flanagan
Freeman
Fromme
Gasper
Graham (Boston)
Hallman
Hannifan
Hartsel
Hinchman (Toledo)
Hoblitzell
Hofman
Hoffman (Providence)
Hulswitt
Jackson
Kelley
Kisinger
Kleinow (New York-catching)
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Kruger
Lavender
Livingstone
McCormick
Milligan
Oakes
Oberlin
Parent
Pfeister (seated)
Purtell
Quillen
Rhoades (arm extended)
Scott
Smith (Buffalo)
F. Smith (white cap)
Stanage
Stephens
Sweeney (Boston)
J. Tannehill (Washington)
Taylor
Thomas
Titus
White (Buffalo)
Wilson
Wright
Zimmerman
350/460 series..................58 subjects
Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Harry Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake, St. Louis (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifeld (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
Nichols (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (Chicago-pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (throwing)
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (glove)
460-only Series..................46 subjects
Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bergen (catching)
Bescher (hands over head)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (hands over head)
Camnitz (arm at side)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Duffy
Larry Doyle (portrait)
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hand at waist)
Hummel
Lake, St. Louis (ball)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (batting)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Schulte (back view)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)
Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait-cap)
Six Super-Prints
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)
This survey is a work in progress....any new OLD MILL inputs are greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
TED Z
.
Ronnie73
07-06-2017, 11:01 AM
The Old Mill subset is a serious task. I haven't officially focused on the subset yet, even though my Old Mill count is currently at 151. My first Old Mill purchase was a Heinie Zimmermann. My second was a Hal Chase Blue Portrait. My Old Mill SL is complete. Just doing a search on Ebay for T206 Old Mill's will show that not many non SL's are available. I will most likely focus on the Old Mill's a bit more after my Polar Bear subset is down to single digits. It should be interesting to see if a few more Old Mill's get confirmed.
tedzan
07-07-2017, 04:15 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/SoLgeOldMillHinduP350bks12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BreitensteinShaughnessyFoster11x.jpg
TheT206 set includes exactly 48 Southern League (SL) subjects....34 of which were printed with 3 different backs (brown HINDU, OLD MILL, and PIEDMONT 350).
And, the other 14 of these cards were printed with just OLD MILL and PIEDMONT 350 backs.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/SoLgeOLDMILLx25b.jpg Checklist of the 48 subjects in the SL series is broken down with respect to the cards with HINDU vs. the no HINDU cards........
34 subjects with brown HINDU, OLD MILL, and PIEDMONT 350 backs
Bay
Bernhard
Breitenstein
Carey
Coles
Cranston
Ellam
Foster
Fritz
Greminger
Guiheen
Helm
Hickman
Hooker
Howard (Savannah)
Jordan (Atlanta)
Kiernan
Lafitte
Lipe
Manion
McCauley
Molesworth
Mullaney
Otey
Paige
Perdue
Persons
Reagan
Revelle
Ryan
Shaughnessy
Sid Smith (Atlanta)
Thornton
Violat
14 subjects with only OLD MILL and PIEDMONT 350 backs
Bastian
Hart (Little Rock)
Hart (Montgomery)
King
Lentz
Miller
Orth
Rockenfeld
Seitz
Smith (Shreveport)
Stark
Thebo
Westlake
White (Houston)
Stay tuned....additional info regarding these Southern Leaguer's will follow. Including the Brown OLD MILL backs of some of the SL cards.
And, collecting the "Quadruplicate" sub-set of the twenty Southern Association cards.
TED Z
.
Interesting Ted. I'm looking forward to reading your theory about why some SL were not printed with a Hindu back.
tedzan
07-07-2017, 10:22 PM
Hi Sean
The timeline of the print runs of the 48 subjects in the Southern League (SL) series tells us the story.
Circa..Summer > Fall 1909, the 1st press run of the SLer's (34 subjects) were printed with HINDU backs.
Circa..late 1909 > early 1910, the OLD MILL press runs started and the following 14 subjects were added
to the SL series (total = 48 subjects)......
Hart (Little Rock)
Hart (Montgomery)
King (Danville)
Lentz (Little Rock)
Orth (Lynchburg)
Rockenfeld (Montgomery)
Seitz (Norfolk)
Westlake (Danville)
Texas League
Bastian (San Antonio)
Molly Miller (Dallas)
Carlos Smith (Shreveport)
Stark (San Antonio)
Thebo (Waco)
Foley White (Houston)
Circa..Spring 1910, the PIEDMONT 350 cards were printed on all 48 - SL. Surveys indicate that these 14
additional SL subjects were were printed with PIEDMONT 350 backs in greater quantity than those of the
original 34 subjects were.
TED Z
.
sreader3
07-08-2017, 10:07 AM
Hi Ted,
I have always thought that the print run of the latter 14 SLers started/ended at the same time. Two groups: 34 150/350s and 14 350-onlys. What is your reason for parsing out the 6 Texas Leaguers?
Scot
tedzan
07-08-2017, 11:24 AM
Hi Scot
My recollection is, that years ago, you and I came up with 3 print runs on the So. Lgrs.
I've searched for this info in the Net54 archives, but I haven't any luck finding our discussion.
Am I imagining this, or did we arrive at such a timeline in the printing of these 48 cards ?
TED Z
.
irishdenny
07-08-2017, 02:37 PM
* * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/conniemacke96.jpg
Connie Mack was a staunch anti-tobacco guy, who did not want his image portrayed on tobacco cards. **
Of course he can be found on various E-type cards.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1911T201ThomasCoombs25b.jpg . .http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/coombse98.jpg
Connie Mack recruited most of his ballplayers at from College. He felt they had better training and they could think better than players from the farm system.
Jack Coombs is a perfect example of Connie's recruiting style. Jack was a 4 sport (baseball, basketball, football and track) athlete at Colby College in Maine.
Tom Mack (Connie's brother) scouted Jack during his College days. In his senior year (1905), Jack signed with the A's. His first 4 years, Jack's pitching record
was unimpressive. Then in 1910, Jack's W-L record was an amazing 31-9 with 1.30 ERA. Furthermore, he won 3 games in the World Series defeating the Cubs.
In the Fall of 1910, American Lithographic was designing their 460-only series cards; therefore, why didn't they include Jack Coombs in this series ? Given, the
tremendous year he had. I do not really understand why he is missing in the T206 set.
Incidentally, Coombs won 28 games in 1911, and 21 games in 1912. WOW !....80 games won in 3 consecutive years. **
Is that a record, what ?
TED Z
.
Hey there Ted!,
No Doubt Mr. Coombs had an impressive 3 Year Run!
80 Wins in Just 3 Years Will Nevar Happen AgaiN....
Being a "BiG" Ed Walsh Rooter, I Do Know THaT
Mr. Walsh Had His Own Nice Run of 81 Wins From 1906-08(17,24 & 40)
I'm Not Sure if it's the Record?, Mr. Walsh Certainly Holds Many!
Howevar, As You Know "BiG" Ed Holds the All Time Record fir ERA(1.82),
And Mr. Coombs Bested the Spitballer by 1.32 to 1.59 during their 3 Year Runs.
So, my Hats Off to Mr. Coombs!
~ Very Impressive during his time ~
*And I Just Moved Mr. Coombs to the "Head of the Pack"
Of my "Who Should of Bin Included inta the T206 Set"!!!
As Always Sir... Dankz fir the Education, "TRuLy!" :)
tedzan
07-08-2017, 07:38 PM
Hi Denny
Thanks for the information on "Big Ed". Walsh (as you well know) was amazing from 1907 - 1912.....168 Wins. That's an average of 24 Wins per season !
Hey guy, we here in Pennsylvania have produced a lot of great ballplayers throughout the years. Dare I say the T206 set consists of more Pennsylvanians
than from any other state in the country back then.
Yes, for 3 consecutive seasons Jack Coombs was a tremendous pitcher. But your guy was tremendous for 7 consecutive years.
Thanks again for the memories,
TED Z
.
sreader3
07-08-2017, 09:11 PM
Hi Scot
My recollection is, that years ago, you and I came up with 3 print runs on the So. Lgrs.
I've searched for this info in the Net54 archives, but I haven't any luck finding our discussion.
Am I imagining this, or did we arrive at such a timeline in the printing of these 48 cards ?
TED Z
.
Hi Ted,
Heitman thought the 6 Texas Leaguers formed their own group but they have always been grouped with the other 8 non-Hindu SLers in my mind.
Scot
rats60
07-08-2017, 09:51 PM
Hey there Ted!,
No Doubt Mr. Coombs had an impressive 3 Year Run!
80 Wins in Just 3 Years Will Nevar Happen AgaiN....
Being a "BiG" Ed Walsh Rooter, I Do Know THaT
Mr. Walsh Had His Own Nice Run of 81 Wins From 1906-08(17,24 & 40)
I'm Not Sure if it's the Record?, Mr. Walsh Certainly Holds Many!
Howevar, As You Know "BiG" Ed Holds the All Time Record fir ERA(1.82),
And Mr. Coombs Bested the Spitballer by 1.32 to 1.59 during their 3 Year Runs.
So, my Hats Off to Mr. Coombs!
~ Very Impressive during his time ~
*And I Just Moved Mr. Coombs to the "Head of the Pack"
Of my "Who Should of Bin Included inta the T206 Set"!!!
As Always Sir... Dankz fir the Education, "TRuLy!" :)
Cy Young won 97 games from 1891-93. Walter Johnson matched that from 1912-14.
And Grover Cleveland Alexander came close with 94 from 1915-1917.
Ronnie73
07-10-2017, 12:47 AM
While playing around with spreadsheet checklists for Polar Bears and Sovereigns, I came across something interesting that may or may not have been brought up in the past. The first part I'm sure everyone is aware of is that all Sovereign 150/350 cards do not exist with Polar Bear backs. The second part which I normally wouldn't think much into it but a magic number 55 comes into play. I combined the Sovereign and Polar Bear lists together. I then removed the Sovereign 150/350 cards. Then I removed the cards that shared Polar Bear and Sovereign backs. What I was left with was a list of Polar Bears that don't have Sovereign 350 & 460 counterparts, and a list of Sovereign 350's that don't have Polar Bear counterparts. Odd thing is that each list has 55 unique cards and the Sovereign's are all the Forest Green Backs. So, am I putting too much thought into this? What's everyone's thoughts that each list has 55 cards? All cards are from the Print Group 2 class except where noted.
Sovereign 350 Forest Green Backs that don't have Polar Bear counterparts.
Arndt, Harry
Bender, Chief (With Trees)
Brown, George (Washington) (PRINT GROUP 1)
Burns, Bill
Butler, John
Byrne, Bobby
Campbell, Billy
Cassidy, Peter
Collins, Eddie
Crawford, Sam (Throwing) (PRINT GROUP 1)
Cree, Birdie
Dahlen, Bill (Brooklyn) (PRINT GROUP 1)
Dineen, Bill
Donovan, Wild Bill (Throwing)
Doolan, Mickey (Fielding)
Downs, Jerry
Dubuc, Jean
Dunn, Jack
Dunn, Joe
Fiene, Lou (Throwing)
Hall, Bob
Hannifan, Jack
Hartsel, Topsy
Howell, Harry (Portrait)
Huggins, Miller (Hands At Mouth)
Huggins, Miller (Portrait)
Jennings, Hughie (Portrait) (PRINT GROUP 1)
Killian, Ed (Portrait)
Knabe, Otto
Lennox, Ed
Malarkey, Bill
Marquard, Rube (Portrait)
McCormick, Moose
McGinley, Jim
McIntyre, Matty
Mitchell, Fred
Mitchell, Mike
Moran, Herbie
Mowrey, Mike
Myers, Chief (Fielding)
Oberlin, Frank
O'Hara, Bill (New York)
Paskert, Dode
Phelan, Jimmy
Poland, Phil
Rhoades, Bob (Hands At Chest)
Rossman, Claude
Schmidt, Boss (Portrait)
Stephens, Jim
Street, Gabby (Portrait)
Summers, Ed
Sweeney, Bill
Thomas, Ira
Wilson, Owen
Zimmerman, Heinie
Polar Bear Backs that don't have Sovereign 350 or 460 counterparts.
Adkins, Doc
Arellanes, Frank
Barbeau, Jap
Barger, Cy
Bliss, Jack
Brashear, Roy
Bresnahan, Roger (Batting)
Burchell, Fred
Clark, Josh
Clymer, Bill
Collins, Jimmy
Davidson, Paul
Delehanty, Frank
Demmitt, Ray (St. Louis Amer.)
Dessau, Rube
Dorner, Gus
Downey, Tom (Fielding)
Engle, Clyde
Evans, Steve
Freeman, Jerry
Ganzel, John
Graham, Bill
Gray, Dolly
Groom, Bob
Hayden, Jack
Jones, Davy
Kleinow, Red (Boston - Catching) (PRINT GROUP 3)
LaPorte, Frank
Lattimore, Bill
Lavender, Jimmy (It was pointed out that this card doesn't belong on the list. So this list only has 54 cards.)
Lord, Harry
Maddox, Nick
Maloney, Billy
Mattern, Al
McLean, Larry
Milan, Clyde
Miller, Dots
Mullen, George
Murray, Red (Batting)
Nattress, Billy
O'Hara, Bill (St. Louis)
Pelty, Barney (Vertical) (PRINT GROUP 3)
Phillippe, Deacon
Puttman, Ambrose
Rhodes, Charlie
Ritter, Lou
Rudolph, Dick
Schirm, George
Schlafly, Larry
Schreck, Ossee
Shannon, Spike
Sharpe, Bud
Smith, Frank (Chicago & Boston) (PRINT GROUP 3)
Snodgrass, Fred (Batting)
Willett, Ed
Rich Falvo
07-10-2017, 06:15 AM
Ron...one change for you - Lavender has both Polar Bear and Sovereign 350.
tedzan
07-10-2017, 07:10 AM
Hi Ron
Interesting stuff.
I did a similar analysis with POLAR BEAR vs 1910 COUPON (T213-1) Major League (48) subjects in 2008.
Refer to this thread.... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=91654&highlight
Shown here are the 48- Major League subjects in the 1910 COUPON set. The 1910 COUPON cards were issued circa..Spring/Summer 1910.
My theory.....is this group of 48 subjects were printed from an early 350-only sheet of T206 cards. From this group, 39 subjects are POLAR
BEAR No-Prints.
The nine printed POLAR BEAR cards from this group are listed below.
1910 COUPON (T213-1) Major League (48) subjects
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1stQuad350seriesSheet12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/2ndQuad350seriesSheet12xxx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/3rdQuad350seriesSheet12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/4thQuad350serieSheet12xx.jpg
Confirmed POLAR BEAR Subjects from this COUPON group
Engle
LaPorte
Willett
and the Six Super-Prints....which of course went on to be 350/460 series subjects and have PB backs
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)
TED Z
.
Ronnie73
07-10-2017, 07:39 AM
Ron...one change for you - Lavender has both Polar Bear and Sovereign 350.
Hey Rich, your right. So much for my 55/55 list. I guess that's what happens when I try to do T206 research 2:30 in the morning.
Rich Falvo
07-10-2017, 09:00 AM
Hey Rich, your right. So much for my 55/55 list. I guess that's what happens when I try to do T206 research 2:30 in the morning.
I hate destroying the symmetry. We need to find one on the other side to make it 54/54. :)
tedzan
07-10-2017, 05:37 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/SoLgeOldMillHinduP350bks12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BreitensteinShaughnessyFoster11x.jpg
There are a variety of "card games" you can play with the T206 Southern Leaguer's combined with other tobacco
cards having the same image. For instance, shown here is my whimsical run of Greminger's cards......
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/icons/EdGremingerOM.jpg..........http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/GremingerP350HinduRedSun25.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/icons/SoLgeOLDMILLx25b.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/GremingerP350HinduRedSun25b.jpg
And, why not include a brown OLD MILL (with Factory #649 overprint) card of Greminger....... http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/abOLDMILLfact649x25.jpg
OK, I need Greminger's 1910 COUPON card to fill-out this run. If anyone reading this has a T213-1 Greminger for sale, email me.... tedzan11@comcast.net
Another challenge is trying for a "Quadruplicate" subset that includes a 1910 COUPON card of your favorite SL guy from 20 subjects in the Southern Association
of the T213-1 set.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BreitBayBernCarrCran12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/EllmFritGremHartHart12x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/PersReagRockSidSmithThorn12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/HickJordLenzMolePerd12x.jpg
Ted Breitenstein is my favorite Southern Leaguer in the T206 set. Here's my Quadruplicate sub-set of Ted.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/BreitensteinOMxHINDUxP350xCOUPON.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/BreitensteinOMxHINDUxP350xCOUPONb.jpg
OK guys, show us your whimsical (or whatever) sub-set(s) of Southern League cards.
TED Z
.
tedzan
07-12-2017, 08:10 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/SoLgeOldMillHinduP350bks12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BreitensteinShaughnessyFoster11x.jpg
During the Summer of 1909, American Litho (ALC) printed SWEET CAPORAL 150 Factory #30 cards of many Major Leaguers and shipped them to Factory #30 in NYC.
Simultaneously, ALC started printing their first group (34 subjects) of Southern Leaguers. These cards were printed with brown HINDU backs and were shipped to the
Factory (#649) producing HINDU cigarettes (also SWEET CAPORAL cigarettes).
Furthermore, ALC selected 34 - Major League subjects from the batches of the aforementioned SWEET CAPORAL 150 cards and modified the backs by stamping them
with the "Factory #649" overprint in order to ship them to this new factory.
Circa..Fall of 1909, ALC switched to printing up the OLD MILL backs on the Southern League cards. During this entire process, the usual printer's practice of test runs
between actual press runs resulted in these brown inked OLD MILL (scrap) cards [with the red ink Factory #649 overprint (inverted)]. I don't think any of them found
their way into cigarette packs. Anyhow, to date 13 of them have been confirmed. They are........
Bernhard
Foster
Greminger
Helm
Hooker
Jordan
Kiernan
Mullaney
Paige
Reagan
Revelle
Sid Smith
Thornton
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/BrownOLDMILLfactory649SoLge.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/SC150factory649HinduSoLgeOM.jpg
TED Z
.
tedzan
07-13-2017, 07:59 PM
Hey guys,
These Southern League brown OLD MILL cards are seldom seen....but if you have one, why not show it to us.
TED Z
.
Hey Ted, I need your help. In reviewing post #30 I noticed that you mentioned the close correlation between the Red Cross type-1 and the Pirate sets. The Red Cross set features a Gabby Street card. I thought that that was a Street Catching pose. But the Pirate set features a Street portrait.
Does that mean that the Red Cross Street card is also the portrait version?
tedzan
07-14-2017, 07:33 PM
Sean
The T215-1 set includes both Gabby Street cards....Portrait and Catching.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T215RedCross50xb.jpg
TED Z
.
Pat R
07-14-2017, 08:21 PM
Sean
The T215-1 set includes both Gabby Street cards....Portrait and Catching.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T215RedCross50xb.jpg
TED Z
.
Ted,
I don't have back scans but here are front scans of a Street Catching and Portrait.
280659280660
tedzan
07-14-2017, 08:50 PM
Hi Pat
Thanks much for posting these two Street cards.
It's not often that these T215-1 cards are seen.
Thanks again,
TED Z
.
Cooper1927
07-14-2017, 10:29 PM
Excellent post! You may want to put the "index" at the start of the thread.
Ted,
I don't have back scans but here are front scans of a Street Catching and Portrait.
280659280660
Patrick, is that your Street catching? I only know of one, and it belongs to Richard Masson, so this would be a second example.
Pat R
07-15-2017, 05:18 AM
Patrick, is that your Street catching? I only know of one, and it belongs to Richard Masson, so this would be a second example.
Sean, they are not my cards just scans I had.
tedzan
07-20-2017, 05:57 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/LajoieWagnerChase13x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/LenoxAB460xUzit13x.jpg
..^............... brown LENOX examples ...............^
The timeline of the printing of these Group B subjects with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, LENOX, and UZIT backs was Jan - Feb 1911. This exact timeline coincides with the printing
of the T80 (Military Men) cards. Shown below, the T80 cards were printed with CAIRO MONOPOL, LENOX, OLD MILL, TOLSTOI, and UZIT backs.
To date, 25 brown LENOX cards are confirmed. If my theory proves true, I predict that 11 (or 12) more T206 cards may eventually be discovered with the brown LENOX backs.
Exactly 19 subjects of the 25 brown LENOX cards are from the 350/460 series, and 6 subjects are from the 460-only series......
350/460 series....Group B
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BergMann14cards13x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McQuiWiltse14cards13x.jpg
350/460 series subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs
Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
T80 cards
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T80ColCav2ScotchHiAdjGen25.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/LenoxUzitCairoMonTolstoi25b.jpg
So, here is my hypothesis: The printer at American Lithographic failed to switch from the brown ink after press runs of T80 CAIRO MONOPOL backs to black ink prior to starting
a press run of T206 LENOX backs. Apparently, this mistake was caught quickly, which would explain why very few T206 brown LENOX examples exist.
Instead of QA discarding these brown LENOX cards, the sheets were factory-cut, and these brown LENOX cards were shipped along with the black LENOX cards to Factory #30.
And, inserted into LENOX cigarette packs.
The 6 brown LENOX cards from the 460-only series are from the same group of 9 subjects that are the only confirmed PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 cards in this series.
460-only series subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs
Chase (trophy)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)
I expect these 3 subjects from the 460-only series will eventually be found with brown LENOX backs......
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Let's see your brown LENOX cards. If you have these very rare "gems", why not show them. So, please post them here.
TED Z
.
Okay Ted, here's mine:
281357 281358
tedzan
07-21-2017, 07:43 PM
Hey Sean
Thanks for posting your brown LENOX.
Will I see you in Chicago next week ?
TED Z
.
Not this year Ted. I was hoping to go, but it didn't work out. Maybe next year, definitely in 2019. :(
tedzan
07-22-2017, 07:35 PM
Listed here (in brown color) are the T206 subjects that have been confirmed with Brown LENOX backs. They are interleaved with subjects (in
black color) that are possible Brown LENOX candidates.
Let's continue this train rolling down the tracks, perhaps we will discover another new Brown LENOX card (or even more). There are 11 more
possible subjects.
Hey guys, take a good close look at your LENOX cards. You may be surprised to find a Brown LENOX hiding in your T206 collection :)
CONFIRMED......26 Brown LENOX subjects. Additional 11 possible Candidates that eventually may be confirmed with Brown LENOX.
Berger
Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Chase (trophy)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Latham
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Marquard (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Merkle (throwing)
Mullin (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Doc White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)
Wiltse (pitching)
TED Z
.
Beansballcardblog
07-24-2017, 11:16 AM
I want to thank Ted for this thread. I've been reading it over the last few evenings and will certainly be referencing it in the future.
The amount of information in this thread and Scot's book just blow my mind. I'm an analytical guy. My occupation is a retail analyst. All of this information is an overload for me. Hopefully, some of it will eventually sink in.
Beansballcardblog
07-31-2017, 06:28 PM
As I mentioned before, there is so much info that I can't seem to get a good, solid grip on it all. One question I had is, on the SLers, are there factory variations as well as the three (or two) brand variations?
Any info is greatly appreciated and thank you for sharing all of this information that you've put together!
-kin
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/SoLgeOldMillHinduP350bks12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BreitensteinShaughnessyFoster11x.jpg
TheT206 set includes exactly 48 Southern League (SL) subjects....34 of which were printed with 3 different backs (brown HINDU, OLD MILL, and PIEDMONT 350).
And, the other 14 of these cards were printed with just OLD MILL and PIEDMONT 350 backs.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/SoLgeOLDMILLx25b.jpg Checklist of the 48 subjects in the SL series is broken down with respect to the cards with HINDU vs. the no HINDU cards........
34 subjects with brown HINDU, OLD MILL, and PIEDMONT 350 backs
Bay
Bernhard
Breitenstein
Carey
Coles
Cranston
Ellam
Foster
Fritz
Greminger
Guiheen
Helm
Hickman
Hooker
Howard (Savannah)
Jordan (Atlanta)
Kiernan
Lafitte
Lipe
Manion
McCauley
Molesworth
Mullaney
Otey
Paige
Perdue
Persons
Reagan
Revelle
Ryan
Shaughnessy
Sid Smith (Atlanta)
Thornton
Violat
14 subjects with only OLD MILL and PIEDMONT 350 backs
Bastian
Hart (Little Rock)
Hart (Montgomery)
King
Lentz
Miller
Orth
Rockenfeld
Seitz
Smith (Shreveport)
Stark
Thebo
Westlake
White (Houston)
Stay tuned....additional info regarding these Southern Leaguer's will follow. Including the Brown OLD MILL backs of some of the SL cards.
And, collecting the "Quadruplicate" sub-set of the twenty Southern Association cards.
TED Z
.
tedzan
07-31-2017, 06:55 PM
Hi Kin
I appreciate your kind compliments.
The answer to your question is......
OLD MILL and PIEDMONT are Factory #25.
HINDU is Factory #649.
Kin, it's a complicated set, so feel free to email me regarding any questions you have...... tedzan11@comcast.net
TED Z
.
Beansballcardblog
07-31-2017, 06:59 PM
Thank you so much, Ted. I'm working on the T36 set and in it, each card has a Hassan and Mecca back, and each of those has a Factory 30 and a Factory 649 back. Wasn't sure if that might be the case on these.
-kin
Hi Kin
I appreciate your kind compliments.
The answer to your question is......
OLD MILL and PIEDMONT are Factory #25.
HINDU is Factory #649.
Kin, it's a complicated set, so feel free to email me regarding any questions you have...... tedzan11@comcast.net
TED Z
.
sreader3
07-31-2017, 07:16 PM
Hi Kin,
Thanks for the nice words.
As Ted says there are just the three brand/factory combos for southern leaguers.
There is a footnote, however. A handful of southern leaguer cards having the Old Mill Southern back were printed in brown ink. These cards are all hand-cut i.e. scrap. Moreover, a couple of these Brown Old Mill Southerns (Greminger comes to mind) weirdly have a red Factory 649 overstrike stamp on them. If you search the Net54 archives you will find an image of the "freak" Greminger Brown Old Mill Southern Factory 649 Overstrike card somewhere.
Scot
Here's a link:
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=147870
tedzan
08-02-2017, 07:22 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/JohnsonPitchingSovereign12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Sovereign460CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/amattyab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChaseRedHINDUx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AB460JenningsSGC60x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CobbBatSovereign350x13.jpg
350/460 series subjects
In a conversation with David Hall at the National talking T206's, one topic was regarding the recent find of the 350/460 cards with SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory #30 backs.
These cards were never issued in cigarette packs at Factory #30 (NYC). Instead, American Lithographic overprinted them with the Factory #42 stamp and shipped them to
Factory #42 (Durham, NC).
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/SWEETCAPf42ovpt50x.jpg
It's my understanding that these cards in David's set were originally on a sheet. Unfortunately, the owner of this sheet hand-cut them. Anyhow, I was curious and asked
David to email me a list of them. And, here is David's list......
28 Hand-Cut (Not Issued) Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 cards
Berger, Heinie
Bradley, Bill (With Bat)
Burch, Al (Fielding)
Cobb, Ty (Bat Off Shoulder)
Conroy, Wid (With Bat)
Crawford, Sam (With Bat)
Jennings, Hughie (One Hand Showing)
Jennings, Hughie (Two Hands Showing)
Jordan, Tim (Batting)
Lajoie, Nap (With Bat)
Lake, Joe (St. Louis - No Ball)
Leach, Tommy (Bending Over)
Leifield, Lefty (Batting)
Manning, Rube (Pitching)
McQuillan, George (With Bat)
Mullin, George (With Bat)
Overall, Orval (Hand At Face Level)
Pelty, Barney (Vertical)
Pfeister, Jake (Throwing)
Smith, Frank (Chicago & Boston)
Steinfeldt, Harry (With Bat)
Tinker, Joe (Bat Off Shoulder)
Wagner, Heinie (Bat On Right Shoulder)
White, Doc (Pitching)
Very, very interesting, in that this sheet comprising of these 28 cards coincides exactly with my theory regarding the 28 subjects which I refer to as "Group B" (350/460 series).
Group B (350/460 series)
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BergMann14cards13x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McQuiWiltse14cards13x.jpg
TED Z
.
Pat R
08-02-2017, 07:34 PM
Ted, I believe the Lajoie (batting) was not included in the recent find
of the hand cut cards.
Patrick
tedzan
08-02-2017, 07:42 PM
Hi Pat
You may be right.
But, Lajoie is on the list David sent me.
So, I'll call him about this.
TED Z
.
Hey Ted, sorry to go off-topic, but I have a timeline question about T214s and T213s. I noticed that the Bresnahan appears as a T213 Type-2 with the Chicago Cubs. He appears as well with the Toledo team, presumably in a later print run of Type-2 Coupons. I've always read that these were printed in 1914. But the T214 Bresnahan, printed in 1915 still lists him with Chicago. Then in 1919 the Coupon Type-3s also show Bresnahan with Toledo.
Does this mean that there was a second print run of Type-2s that was later than the 1915 printing of T214s? You've probably addressed this somewhere before, but I can't find it. Here are the cards that I mentioned:
282499
282500
tedzan
08-03-2017, 03:30 PM
Hey Ted, sorry to go off-topic, but I have a timeline question about T214s and T213s. I noticed that the Bresnahan appears as a T213 Type-2 with the Chicago Cubs. He appears as well with the Toledo team, presumably in a later print run of Type-2 Coupons. I've always read that these were printed in 1914. But the T214 Bresnahan, printed in 1915 still lists him with Chicago. Then in 1919 the Coupon Type-3s also show Bresnahan with Toledo.
Does this mean that there was a second print run of Type-2s that was later than the 1915 printing of T214s? You've probably addressed this somewhere before, but I can't find it. Here are the cards that I mentioned:
282499
282500
Hi Sean
Here's my understanding of the timeline regarding Bresnahan.
In early 1916, Bresnahan purchased the Toledo Mud Hens (American Association). He played for Toledo until 1918.
Therefore, I am not surprised that he is identified with Toledo on a T213-2 card (they were printed 1914 - 1916).
And, of course captioned with Toledo on a T213-3 card (which were printed as late as 1919).
Does this answer help ?
TED Z
.
Yes, that explains it. Bresnahan appears on a T213 Type-2 with Chicago in 1914. He then appears on the Victory, again with Chicago, printed in 1915.
The Type-2 with Bresnahan on Toledo is then printed, apparently in 1916, followed by the Type-3, which was printed in 1919.
I didn't realize that the Type-2s were printed as late as 1916. Thanks again Ted. :)
tedzan
08-03-2017, 07:02 PM
Ted, I believe the Lajoie (batting) was not included in the recent find
of the hand cut cards.
Patrick
Pat
David Hall has all 28 subjects on the list (in Post #181) with SWEET CAP 350-460 Factory #30 backs (which of course includes Lajoie).
Perhaps, Lajoie was not in the original find; and, he acquired it from another source.
TED Z
.
tedzan
08-05-2017, 04:02 PM
Thank you so much, Ted. I'm working on the T36 set and in it, each card has a Hassan and Mecca back, and each of those has a Factory 30 and a Factory 649 back. Wasn't sure if that might be the case on these.
-kin
Hi Kin K.
No, it's not the case on the Southern League T206 cards.
The T36 (Auto Drivers) cards were printed and issued approx. the same time the T201 and T202 BB cards were. The MECCA and HASSAN backs on these BB cards, respectively,
have both the Factory #30 and a Factory #649 backs.
My experience in completing the T201 set (and still working on the T202 set) has been that the Factory #649 backs are more plentiful than the Factory #30 backs.
Is this difference also true for your T36 cards ?
TED Z
.
Beansballcardblog
08-06-2017, 12:01 PM
Ted,
The sample size of cards that I've been able to verify and analyze is very small. Sometimes I can't see the back scans to verify that aspect. In the Huggins & Scott auction that ended this week, there was a complete set but only the fronts were pictured.
What I've found so far is Mecca 30 backs being the most plentiful. The other three brand/factory combinations have similar numbers.
I'm not confident this will hold up, as I've been looking into this for less than two years.
Thanks again for your great, informative thread!
-kin
Hi Kin K.
No, it's not the case on the Southern League T206 cards.
The T36 (Auto Drivers) cards were printed and issued approx. the same time the T201 and T202 BB cards were. The MECCA and HASSAN backs on these BB cards, respectively,
have both the Factory #30 and a Factory #649 backs.
My experience in completing the T201 set (and still working on the T202 set) has been that the Factory #649 backs are more plentiful than the Factory #30 backs.
Is this difference also true for your T36 cards ?
TED Z
.
tedzan
08-09-2017, 07:21 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AB350JohnsonCrawfdBaker12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/HerzogEPDGsgc60x11.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/DuffySovereign460x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/JoeDoylePiedmont350x13.jpg
One of the early and very significant T206 thread was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=81906)
This thread inspired lot's of brainstorming between Net54ers regarding various aspects of T206 cards. Surveys and new theory's were explored, resulting in 363 posts
which you'll find very interesting and informative.
The El Principe de Gales (EPDG) brand dates back to 1850's. Its founder, Vicente Martínez Ybor, started producing Cigars in Havana, Cuba. In 1869, he fled from Cuba
to Key West, Florida where he continued manufacturing EPDG cigars. In 1885, he moved to Tampa, FL where he built a larger factory which produced his EPDG cigars.
Note that the EPDG cigarettes were manufactured at Factory #17 in Virginia. If any one on this forum knows where this Factory was located, please chime in....Thanx.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/aadvepdg.jpg
....http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/EPDGbkx25x.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/EPDGbkx25x.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/EPDGbkx25x.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/EPDGbkx25x.jpg
To date, there are 284 confirmed T206 cards with the EPDG back.....they are listed here as a function of their respective T206 series.
150/350 Series................83 subjects
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/LundgrenCubsEPDGx25b.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/LundgrenCubsEPDGx25.jpg
Abbaticchio (brown sleeves)
Ball (New York)
Bates
Beaumont
Bender (portrait)
Bergen (bat)
Bowerman
Bradley (portrait)
Bresnahan (portrait)
M. Brown (portrait)
Camnitz (arms folded)
Chance (red portrait)
Chase (pink portrait)
Chase (white cap)
Chesbro
Cicotte
Clarke (portrait)
JJ Clarke
Coveleski
Crandall (no cap)
Criger
Dahlen (Boston)
Harry Davis (A's)
Delehanty (Washington)
Donlin (seated)
Donovan (portrait)
Dooin
Doolin
Durham
Evers (portrait)
Ewing
Ganley
Gibson
Gilbert
Griffith (portrait)
Hemphill
Herzog (New York)
Hinchman (Cleveland)
Jennings (portrait)
Johnson (portrait)
Tom Jones (St Louis)
Jordan (portrait)
Karger
Keeler (portrait)
Keeler (bat)
Killian (pitching)
Kling
Konetchy (glove high)
Lajoie (throwing)
Leach (portrait)
Lindaman
Lobert
Lumley
Lundgren (Cubs)
Magee (portrait)
Marquard (hands at side)
McQuillan (ball in hand)
Mullin (throwing)
O'Leary (portrait)
Overall (portrait)
Owen
Pastorius
Powell
Ritchey
Rucker (portrait)
Schaefer (Detroit)
Schlei (catching)
Seymour (bat)
Shaw (St Louis)
Shipke
Spade
Spencer
Steinfeldt (portrait)
Stovall (portrait)
L Tannehill (Washington)
Tinker (portrait)
Turner
Wagner (bat on left)
Walsh
Weimer
Wilhelm (arms at chest)
CYoung (portrait)
CYoung (bare hand)
350-only Series................102 subjects
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/EPDGLundgrenKCx25b.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/EPDGLundgrenKCx25.jpg
Abbott
Anderson
Atz
Barbeau
Barger
Batch
Beck
Bender (trees)
Blackburne
Bliss
Brain
Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell
Burke
Burns
Bush
Campbell
Casey
Collins (A's)
Collins (Minneapolis)
Congalton
Cravath
Cree
Davidson
Demmitt (New York)
Dineen
Joe Doyle (hands over head)
Dubuc
Dunn (Baltimore)
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Easterly
Egan
Evans
Fiene (portrait)
Fiene (throwing)
Flanagan
Freeman
Fromme
Gasper
Graham (Boston)
Graham (St Louis)
Gray
Groom
Hallman
Hannifan
Hartsel
Hinchman (Toledo)
Hoblitzell
Hofman
Hoffman (Providence)
Hulswitt
Jackson
Kelley
Kisinger
Kleinow (catching-NY)
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Kruger
Lattimore
Lavender
Livingstone
Lord
Lundgren (Kansas City)
Maddox
Mattern
McAleese
McCormick
McLean
Miller (Pittsburg)
Milligan
Myers (fielding)
Nattress
Oakes
Oberlin
Pfeister (seated)
Phillippe
Purtell
Puttman
Quillen
Rhoades (arm extended)
Rhodes
Rudolph
Schlafly
Scott
Shannon
Sharpe
Shaw (Providence)
Smith (Buffalo)
F. Smith (Chicago)
Stanage
Stephens
Sweeney (Boston)
Jesse Tannehill
Taylor
Thomas
Titus
White (Buffalo)
Willett
Wilson
Wright
Zimmerman
Six Super-Prints
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/EPDGblueChase25xb.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/EPDGblueChase25x.jpg
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)
350/460 series................56 subjects
Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
George Davis (Chicago)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake, St. Louis (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifeld (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
Nichols (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Jeff Sweeney
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (Chicago-pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (throwing)
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (glove)
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/HerzogEPDGsgc60b.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/HerzogEPDGsgc60.jpg
460-only Series................37 subjects (COMPLETE)
Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bergen (catching)
Bescher (hands over head)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (hands over head)
Camnitz (arm at side)
Chance (bat)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Duffy
Larry Doyle (portrait)
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hand on waist)
Hummel
Lake, St. Louis (ball)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (batting)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schulte (back view)
Sheckard (glove)
Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wheat
This survey is a work in progress....any new EPDG inputs from you guys are greatly appreciated.
Thanx
TED Z
.
Thromdog
08-10-2017, 10:52 AM
Thanks for putting this back on the map......I have a couple of edits for you.
1. Your 460-only Series says 37 subjects, but only 36 are listed. Harry Howell hands at waist is missing from your list.
2. Steinfeldt portrait is in the 150/350 series and you have him listed in both the 150/350 series and the 350/460 series. So I think your count for the 350/460 series should be 56 subjects, not 57.
3. So the total number of subjects from your list would be 284 instead of 285.
Back to the players themselves.
Of the 284 subjects from your list, all but 3 have graded examples in the SGC and PSA pop charts. They are Hunky Shaw, Jim Pastorius, and Ed Willett. For the rest of the subjects, they have a minimum of 3 graded examples. My first instinct is to say they don't exist, but I've been proven wrong in the past. I would love to see an example of these guys, so if anyone has one, lets see them!
I'd also point out the uniqueness of the Elite 11 with EPDG backs which is a fun subject. After having collected EPDGs for the last few years, I would say they are not any tougher to find than a regular EPDG, with a few exceptions. As an example, I've owned 4 different Tom Jones EPDG cards.
Knowing the difficulty finding these subjects with Piedmont 350 backs, I support a theory that the EPDGs were printed before the Piedmont 350's. Pat R, who is awesome, had a great thread about this using print defects in comparing 150/350 subjects.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=231030
I haven't updated my collage in a while, but I'm sitting at 223 unique EPDG's at this point. Here's my first 214.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4432/35675762593_26d82f2516_z.jpg
tedzan
08-10-2017, 12:31 PM
Hi Jeff
1st....the grand total of 285 confirmed EPDG subjects is correct......
Cards ..... Series
..83 ........ 150/350
102 ........ 350-only
...6 ......... Super-Prints
..57 ........ 350/460 [if Kleinow (Boston) exists with EPDG)]
..37 ........ 460-only
2nd....I left out Howell in the 460-only series list. Just a hasty typing mistake. This has been corrected.
3rd....There is a question regarding Kleinow (Boston). I have heard this combo exists; however, others say it is a No-Print. What say you ?
4th....I really like your array of EPDG cards, thanks for posting it.
Pastorius, Shaw, and Willett are on my confirmed list (and also on t206 resource's list).
My experience with collecting the Elite 11 regarding both their PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG backs varies all over the place.
But, Lundgren (Cubs) is definitely a "toughie" with PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG backs.
Thanks again.
TED Z
.
tedzan
08-10-2017, 07:35 PM
Thanks for putting this back on the map......I have a couple of edits for you.
1. Your 460-only Series says 37 subjects, but only 36 are listed. Harry Howell hands at waist is missing from your list.
2. Steinfeldt portrait is in the 150/350 series and you have him listed in both the 150/350 series and the 350/460 series. So I think your count for the 350/460 series should be 56 subjects, not 57.
3. So the total number of subjects from your list would be 284 instead of 285.
Hey Jeff
1....My 460-only list is correct with 37 subjects. I inadvertently omitted Howell. He is included in this list.
2....Steinfeldt (portrait) in the 350/460 series list was a typo error, which I have removed. It should have been Steinfeldt (bat). This has been corrected.
Therefore, 57 subjects are correct if you accept Kleinow (Boston) as valid. I have some doubts that this subject exists with an EPDG back.
So, I am asking you again....if you know that this front/back combo exists ? ?
TED Z
.
Thromdog
08-11-2017, 05:31 AM
I forgot that you have Kleinow Boston in the 350/460 batch due to the Drum 350 find. That was throwing me for a loop in this. ;)
In the simplest terms, I find it unlikely due to the lack of proof that any have been seen or graded. I know that sounds weak but that's the only true real evidence we can go with.
Do we have an idea of when the 460 print runs occurred or the order in which they occurred? If the EPDG print run was early, I could see a scenario where it's possible.....namely the intent to keep the Kleinow NY catching as part of the 460 and then switch over to Boston when the trade occurred, all while the EPDG were being printed for the 460's.
tedzan
08-11-2017, 08:07 AM
I forgot that you have Kleinow Boston in the 350/460 batch due to the Drum 350 find. That was throwing me for a loop in this. ;)
In the simplest terms, I find it unlikely due to the lack of proof that any have been seen or graded. I know that sounds weak but that's the only true real evidence we can go with.
Do we have an idea of when the 460 print runs occurred or the order in which they occurred? If the EPDG print run was early, I could see a scenario where it's possible.....namely the intent to keep the Kleinow NY catching as part of the 460 and then switch over to Boston when the trade occurred, all while the EPDG were being printed for the 460's.
My theory regarding the timeline when the 350/460 subjects were printed with EPDG backs coincides with the Sovereign "apple green" print run (shown here is my simulated
Sovereign sheet)....circa Spring - Summer 1910.
I base this on the following evidence......
Joe Doyle retires from Major League BB June 25, 1910
Simon Nicholls retires from Major League BB April 19, 1910
Red Kleinow traded to Boston May 26, 1910
Frank Smith traded to Boston Aug 11, 1910 [F. Smith(Chicago & Boston) is an EPDG No-Print]
I have removed Red Kleinow (Boston) from my list.
Therefore, the grand total (to date) of EPDG = 284 subjects.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AT206superprints9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AmeBakBenCobConDav9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AT206superprints9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BurDonDooJDoyLDoyElb9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BerBraBroCraDouDow9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/GrifJennJenJosLajLak9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ManJohnMagMcQMurpNich9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/KleJorKonLeaMcInMul9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/LeifOLeOvePelPfeReul9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/RhoSmitRucSeySnoSta9x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/WagWilSweStrCYoSte9x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/WilhTinWillWilWillWhi9x.jpg
TED Z
.
tedzan
08-13-2017, 03:06 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/JohnsonPitchingSovereign12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Sovereign460CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/amattyab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChaseRedHINDUx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/AB460JenningsSGC60x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/CobbBatSovereign350x13.jpg
350/460 series subjects
Continuing from Post # 181 ......
In anticipation of the impending divestiture of the American Tobacco Co. (ATC) in 1911, American Lithographic modified their SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #30 cards
(initial press run) by stamping them with Factory #42 overprints. This was done since the SWEET CAP cigarettes production was being transferred to the Durham, NC plant
of Liggett & Myers.
Factory #42 Durham, NC
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/apcfactory42ncdurham.jpg
Anyhow, after ATC's divesture was resolved by the Federal Courts (circa..Summer 1911), and the "smoke had finally cleared", ATC had retained SWEET CAPORAL production.
Therefore, all this "overprinting" of 109 -T206 subjects was really unnecessary. Listed below are the 109 subjects that were overprinted.
Check-out the Federal Court's decree break-down (circa 1911)......
American Tobacco Company divestiture
Liggett & Myers was given about 28 % of the cigarette market:
Piedmont
Fatima
American Beauty
Home Run
Imperiales
Coupon
King Bee
Fatima....only 15 Turkish blends
and the cheap straight domestic brands.
P. Lorillard received 15 % of the nation's business:
Helmar
Egyptian Deities
Turkish Trophies
Murad
Mogul
and all straight Turkish brands
American Tobacco retained 37 % of the market:
Sweet Caporal
Hassan
Mecca
Pall Mall....its expensive all-Turkish brand, named for a fashionable London street
in the 18th century where "pall-mall" (a precursor to croquet) was played.
R. J. Reynolds received no cigarette line but was awarded 20 % of the plug trade.
SWEET CAP 350-460, Factory #42 overprint......109 subjects
350/460 series................57 subjects
Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
George Davis (Chicago)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake, St. Louis (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifeld (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Jeff Sweeney
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (Chicago-pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (throwing)
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (glove)
Six Super-Prints
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)
460-only Series................46 subjects
Abbaticcio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (pitching)
Bescher (arms above)
Bergen (catching)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (arms at side)
Camnitz (arms up)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Doyle (portrait)
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hands at waist)
Hummell
Lake (with ball)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (bat)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schulte (back view)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
H. Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait-cap)
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/SWEETCAPf42ovpt50x.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/acobbsweetcap42ovpt.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/bcobbsweetcap42ovpt_1.jpg
TED Z
.
tedzan
08-19-2017, 03:37 PM
Double post.
tedzan
08-21-2017, 07:09 PM
* * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * *
We have been on vacation visiting our Daughter and Grandson in Maine. I just noticed Turner's thread.... Georgia Find: 878 T205's and T206's (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=243868).
Thanks, Turner for posting this thread and all those great images.
This is a significant find. It's the 4th discovery in the surrounding area of Atlanta of an original collection of T206's that include the rare T206's that we refer to as the Elite 11 cards.
Approx. 9 years ago, I acquired a lot of T206's from an Antique dealer in Atlanta. All these cards were from an original collection in a town nearby Atlanta. This collection was strictly
PIEDMONT cards; and, I was pleasantly surprised to find 8 of the Elite 11 cards in this group.
Very recently, another original collection of T206's (all PIEDMONT's) was discovered in the Atlanta area. And, this collection included 7 of the Elite 11 cards.
I have been tracking these rare T206's since 2006, refer to this thread.... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=87180 for more info.
It appears that Factory #25 shipped PIEDMONT cigarette packs (containing 1st print run PIEDMONT 350 cards) to Georgia. I say this because some Joe Doyle Nat'l cards have been
found in T206 collections originating in Georgia. The best example being Senator Richard Russell's original T206 collection. It is the first known source of the Elite 11 cards. This set
also includes the Joe Doyle Nat'l card. Russell lived in Winder, Georgia (not far from Atlanta), and he collected Tobacco cards as a teenager during 1909 - 1910.
Elite 11....plus Lundgren
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/Elite12DahlenLindaman12x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/Elite12LundgrenSchulte25x.jpg
Although Lundgren (Cubs) was not printed with HINDU, SOVEREIGN, nor SWEET CAPORAL....this card is very similar to the ELITE 11
with respect to the initial 350 press runs of PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG backs. Therefore, I have included Lundgren in with this group.
Note The Schulte card has not yet been found with an EPDG back.
Hey guys,
I'm open to hearing of any other regions in the country where these Elite 11 cards have been discovered. Please chime in with your information.
TED Z
.
Pat R
08-26-2017, 08:33 PM
Pat
David Hall has all 28 subjects on the list (in Post #181) with SWEET CAP 350-460 Factory #30 backs (which of course includes Lajoie).
Perhaps, Lajoie was not in the original find; and, he acquired it from another source.
TED Z
.
Hi Ted,
PSA has a special section in their pop reports for no prints that include the SC350-460/30's. I sent David an email several months ago about three that were missing from the list
which are Conroy (With Bat), Lake (No Ball) and Leach (Bending Over) but I never heard back from him. The next time you speak to him can you ask him to have them update this
list for accuracy to include these three and the Lajoie that he has.
https://www.psacard.com/pop/t206/?byback=1&pf=0#NoPrintPop
285640
285641285642
285643285644
285645285646
Ronnie73
08-28-2017, 07:33 PM
Here is a front/back scan of the Lajoie Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 "No Print". I personally own this card along with the other 27 "No Print" cards. This 28 card "No Print" set follows Ted's "Group B" list exactly!!!
http://www.comicplace.com/net54/lajoiefront.jpghttp://www.comicplace.com/net54/lajoieback.jpg
tedzan
08-30-2017, 09:00 AM
* * * * * * T206 Reference....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * *
OK, let's take a break for now from all this "heavy" stuff regarding T206's, and have a Show-n-Tell of your favorite T206 cards in your collection.
Card's condition is immaterial, what can be more interesting is the story behind why certain T206's are your favorites.
I'll start this show with 3 of my sentimental favorites......
Here is my first T206....I acquired this Chase at the Willow Grove Show in Pennsylvania (Spring 1981).
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1stT206Chaseblue50x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1stT206Chaseblue50xb.jpg
The red Cobb with a SOVEREIGN 460 back is a very tough card to find. It was the last card in completing my SOVEREIGN-Only set of 408 cards.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1911SovereignCobbSGCx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1911SovereignCobbSGCx50b.jpg
Mr. Plank was the last card I needed to complete my SWEET CAPORAL Factory #30-Only set. It's now "complete" with 468 cards (no Wagner).
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206EddiePlankSC150x30.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206PlankSC150x30xb.jpg
Hey guys,
Looking forward to seeing your favorite T206's.
TED Z
.
Hey Ted, when I was a kid my first set was the 1965 Topps. My favorite card was Yastrzemski. He was posed as if he was about to catch a fly ball. As an eight year old I didn't realize that it was just a pose. I really thought that the photographer caught him in the act of making a catch.
I noticed that in the T206 set, Mitchell is in a very similar pose, so that is one of my favorites:
286000
The Merkle throwing is another favorite, particularly this Brown Lenox, which seems to be a 1 of 1:
285997
285998
The Cobb bat off shoulder is one of the prettiest cards in the set IMO, and of course its a Cobb:
286001
And I'll finish my post with a Plank to keep yours company:
285999
tedzan
08-30-2017, 07:02 PM
Hey Sean
OK guy, I'll match your Cobb and Merkle......and, I'll raise the ante with my Hal Chase / red HINDU :)
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/CobbBatOffAB460x50.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/AB460JenningsHand50xbx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/MerkleUZITx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/MerkleUZITx50b.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/ChaseRedHINDUx25.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/rh.jpg
Come on guys, let's see your favorite T206's.
TED Z
.
Ted, I thought that you sold that Merkle/ Uzit at the 2015 National.
Here's my favorite portrait:
286056
Rich Falvo
08-30-2017, 07:47 PM
I only have blurry scans, but these two might be my favorites.
286059286060
286061286062
rats60
08-30-2017, 07:48 PM
I will add my Plank plus two others.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4217/35766612276_a0ec0ae9a7_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/WuzeJU)
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4364/36095079484_175f2af050_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/WZAHAC)
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4415/36789737411_d17fae3fe7_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Y3Z2cr)
hshrimps
08-30-2017, 10:34 PM
I will add my Plank plus two others.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4217/35766612276_a0ec0ae9a7_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/WuzeJU)
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4364/36095079484_175f2af050_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/WZAHAC)
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4415/36789737411_d17fae3fe7_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Y3Z2cr)
Nice Plank. But how come it is only a SGC-40 for such a nice Plank? Paper loss on the back?
Now I want to match Rats' cards:
286081
286080
rats60
08-31-2017, 07:52 AM
Nice Plank. But how come it is only a SGC-40 for such a nice Plank? Paper loss on the back?
The print marks on the face.
tedzan
08-31-2017, 03:24 PM
Ted, I thought that you sold that Merkle/ Uzit at the 2015 National.
Here's my favorite portrait:
286056
Sean..... The Merkle / UZIT was for display (and discussion)....not for sale.
TEDZ
.
tedzan
08-31-2017, 03:31 PM
1st on my favorite's list of T206's is the Walter Johnson (portrait).....it's a beautiful image.
PIEDMONT set
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206JohsonSGC40.jpg
SOVEREIGN set
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/SOVEREIGN150JohnsonPSA4.jpg
SWEET CAPORAL Factory #30 set
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/WJohnsonSweetCap150.jpg
TED Z
.
tedzan
09-04-2017, 06:08 PM
Thanks guys for posting your favorite T206's.
Another one of my favorite T206's is Frank Delehanty. Here are 4 cards from my Delehanty run representing the "A-B-C-D" connection.
The significance of the A-B-C-D connection (350 series) is read in thread.... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=90139
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/FrankDelahantyABCDx50.jpg
.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/FrankDelahantyABCDx50b.jpg
Furthermore,
American Lithographic continued this A-B-C-D connection into the T205 set. Thirty-two T205 subjects were printed with American Beauty,
Broad Leaf, Cycle, and Drum backs. For more info on this, refer to thread.... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=195845&page=4
Huggins is my favorite of these T205 A-B-C-D sub-sets......
.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/ABCDxT205Huggins25x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/ABCDxT205Huggins25bx.jpg
Still searching for Huggins with a DRUM back. Any help in finding this card is enormously appreciated, and there will be a reward.
TED Z
.
tedzan
09-07-2017, 06:45 PM
Also, trying for an A-B-C-D Quadruplicate run with the T205 Lobert. Looking for a DRUM card of him.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T205ABLobert50x.jpg. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T205BLLobert50x.jpg. . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T205LobertCYCLEx50xx.jpg
..http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T205ABLobert50b.jpg. . .http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T205BLLobert50b.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T205LobertCYCLEx50bx.jpg
TED Z
.
Ronnie73
09-07-2017, 09:07 PM
There's so many favorites, I wouldn't know where to begin.
Rhotchkiss
09-07-2017, 09:48 PM
Ted, since I was a kid, the Young with Glove has been has been a favorite of mine. When I was about 13, I traded something like a Gooden and Clemens rookie for a Bresnahan w/ bat (Sean C almost has a complete back run), and i was a t206 fan. Later, As a kid, I saw this Cy Young was glove at a card show and thought it was amazing. 10 years later I discovered eBay and started assembling another collection- first card I bought was the t206 cy young with glove. I sold that collection and almost 20 years later I started to collect again and this t206 young w glove was one of my first.
Rhotchkiss
09-07-2017, 10:07 PM
Piggy-backing off my last post, bc of my life-long-love of the t206 Young w/glove, I really enjoy the t206 set, and it's likely a reason I am still collecting. Needless to say, I have become a cy young fan along the way...
Aaron Seefeldt
09-07-2017, 11:24 PM
I once bought 2 PSA graded Cobbs - bat on & green portrait - both with Hindu backs from a prominent t206 historian... they both turned out to be rebacked and I got my $ back. I worked 5 mins away from Mastro's when they were in Burr Ridge, IL. I'll always be greatful to Pete Calderon (he was at Mastro's at that time) & to Bill for being completely confident they were rebacked & helping me get my $ back. Again, I stress they were both PSA graded (w # grades, not authentic).
20 some years ago REA auctioned a group of 5 Cobb backs that were found in an old book. I bought 2 of them and sold them shortly after for nice profits. Doh!!!
In the early 90's I was at a show in Ft Washington and came across a red port Cobb with a Red Hindu back. I counted out $3k in cash to buy it but before I handed the dealer the $ my dad (who was w me) talked me out of it saying it was a bad buy... the dealer turned around and auctioned it in Mastro's where it sold for $6600. Some 10 years later I came across it again, but in a PSA 4 slab & the dealer wanted $10k for it. So I agreed to do a deal w a friend, selling my d304 Cobb & Rose PC Cobb to raise cash to buy the Red Hindu. A year or 2 later I sold the Red Hindu in REA.
I used to own a t206 Uzit bat off Cobb. Sold it privately, too soon.
I bought a Drum t206 Red port Cobb off eBay 10 or 15 yrs ago that was in a PRO holder... rolling the dice, I paid $2k. I again visited Mastro's and Bill and another guy there (I forgot his name) were confident it was rebacked... I sold it for $250 to a friend telling him it was rebacked.
My most recent t206 Cobb purchase is the "famous" Lenox back Red Portrait from the incredible & insane BST thread here on Net54. It also was auctioned 2 times in Heritage but not meeting the very high reserves. After I received it I showed the guys at REA (at the National) as well as the SGC booth (and they stood by their initial grade of it). It is my favorite card I own and I won't make the mistake of selling it quickly.
I have more stories including a rebacked Carolina Brights Cobb, Am Beauty Cobb bat off, etc.
Be careful if you're buying a rare back t206. All the rebacked Cobbs I bought were over 10 years ago and prices have exploded since then. A 2nd opinion (or even a 3rd) is a wise move.
Piggy-backing off my last post, bc of my life-long-love of the t206 Young w/glove, I really enjoy the t206 set, and it's likely a reason I am still collecting. Needless to say, I have become a cy young fan along the way...
Hey Ryan, great Young. It's funny how individual tastes can vary. A few years ago someone started a thread about the strangest looking T206 card, and that Young got a few votes. So did the Evers Blue Sky, which is one of my favorites. Go figure... :D
Rhotchkiss
09-08-2017, 10:23 AM
I think one of the reasons I like the Young w/ glove is how ugly it is - here is likely the best picture of his time, and they have him looking like a fat shlub in an awkward position. I similarly like the M Brown pitching pose, maybe bc he/it is ugly (plus I like you can see the 3 fingers). Evers looks hideous in the blue sky pose. All ugly poses. But man can something ugly look so good sometimes! As an aside, anyone ever think that Joss pitching looks like a young Billy Joel?
tedzan
09-10-2017, 10:13 AM
Hey guys,
Nice Show-n-Tell posts of your T206's.
Let's continue to post more of your favorite's.
TEDZ
.
I think one of the reasons I like the Young w/ glove is how ugly it is - here is likely the best picture of his time, and they have him looking like a fat shlub in an awkward position. I similarly like the M Brown pitching pose, maybe bc he/it is ugly (plus I like you can see the 3 fingers). Evers looks hideous in the blue sky pose. All ugly poses. But man can something ugly look so good sometimes! As an aside, anyone ever think that Joss pitching looks like a young Billy Joel?
Another odd thing about that Young Glove Shows card is the "A" on his uniform. It seems to be an early Boston uniform.
I once bought 2 PSA graded Cobbs - bat on & green portrait - both with Hindu backs from a prominent t206 historian... they both turned out to be rebacked and I got my $ back. I worked 5 mins away from Mastro's when they were in Burr Ridge, IL. I'll always be greatful to Pete Calderon (he was at Mastro's at that time) & to Bill for being completely confident they were rebacked & helping me get my $ back. Again, I stress they were both PSA graded (w # grades, not authentic).
20 some years ago REA auctioned a group of 5 Cobb backs that were found in an old book. I bought 2 of them and sold them shortly after for nice profits. Doh!!!
In the early 90's I was at a show in Ft Washington and came across a red port Cobb with a Red Hindu back. I counted out $3k in cash to buy it but before I handed the dealer the $ my dad (who was w me) talked me out of it saying it was a bad buy... the dealer turned around and auctioned it in Mastro's where it sold for $6600. Some 10 years later I came across it again, but in a PSA 4 slab & the dealer wanted $10k for it. So I agreed to do a deal w a friend, selling my d304 Cobb & Rose PC Cobb to raise cash to buy the Red Hindu. A year or 2 later I sold the Red Hindu in REA.
I used to own a t206 Uzit bat off Cobb. Sold it privately, too soon.
I bought a Drum t206 Red port Cobb off eBay 10 or 15 yrs ago that was in a PRO holder... rolling the dice, I paid $2k. I again visited Mastro's and Bill and another guy there (I forgot his name) were confident it was rebacked... I sold it for $250 to a friend telling him it was rebacked.
My most recent t206 Cobb purchase is the "famous" Lenox back Red Portrait from the incredible & insane BST thread here on Net54. It also was auctioned 2 times in Heritage but not meeting the very high reserves. After I received it I showed the guys at REA (at the National) as well as the SGC booth (and they stood by their initial grade of it). It is my favorite card I own and I won't make the mistake of selling it quickly.
I have more stories including a rebacked Carolina Brights Cobb, Am Beauty Cobb bat off, etc.
Be careful if you're buying a rare back t206. All the rebacked Cobbs I bought were over 10 years ago and prices have exploded since then. A 2nd opinion (or even a 3rd) is a wise move.
Aaron, that's a great story and a great card. And an excuse for me to post mine:
287357
Ronnie73
09-10-2017, 11:18 AM
Figured I'd continue with a Cobb. Out of the four Cobb's, the Bat Off has always been my favorite. I've just always liked the background colors. Here's my "No Print" Cobb.
http://www.comicplace.com/net54/cobbfront.jpghttp://www.comicplace.com/net54/cobbback.jpg
Hey Ron, I agree with you: the Cobb Bat Off is just about the nicest looking card in the set.
Rhotchkiss
09-10-2017, 01:44 PM
Awesome Cobb Lenox Sean. Cobb bat off is great looking but sometimes Cobb has those dark evil looking eyes. Funny thing is, as much as I like the bat off pose, the evil eye Cobb bat off is one of my least favorite. Similarly, sometimes the lips on the Wajo port are too red/big; I love the Wajo portrait but really don't like when he has super red lips.
What are some others where a feature is sometimes accentuated or distorted?
tedzan
09-10-2017, 08:25 PM
My T206 collection consists of approx. 2200 cards....and, there are just too many favorites.
Such as my best DRUM and LENOX cards.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206ElberfeldDRUM.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206DRUMx50bx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206NeedhamLENOXx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T206xLENOXx37_1.jpg
And, thanks for posting your favorites....show us some more.
TED Z
.
DeanH3
09-10-2017, 08:55 PM
I've always been drawn to over-sized T206's
http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=244&pictureid=10125http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=244&pictureid=21947http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=244&pictureid=10123
Some favorite mid-tier backs
http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=244&pictureid=22947http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=244&pictureid=22646http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=244&pictureid=21948http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=244&pictureid=18831http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=244&pictureid=18880
Nice Matty portrait, and I like the color on that Young. :eek:
DeanH3
09-10-2017, 09:22 PM
Thank you Sean! :)
Rhotchkiss
09-11-2017, 05:49 AM
I love the tinker - great big fat borders. I too love me a fat t206
tedzan
09-13-2017, 09:13 PM
The Carl Lundgren (Cubs) cards is a favorite of mine for several reasons. Especially, since it was the first T206 subject of which
I completed its back Run (only 3 cards needed). I included the color-error (missing blue ink) of Lundgren to accent this display.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/alundgren4versions.jpg
.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/blundgren4versions.jpg
TED Z
.
tedzan
09-20-2017, 06:24 PM
* * * * * * * * T206 Reference....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * *
So you have "completed" your T206 set. But, The Monster has you hooked. Just like those classic lyrics in the song Hotel California.........
:) "you can check out any time you like....but, you can never leave" :)
So, you need a new T206 challenge. Try collecting your favorite T206 guy with all his backs. The most awesome T206 sub-set by a Net54
member is Jamie Blundell's red Cobb run. And, there are quite a number of other impressive Runs by Net54er's.
If you want a real challenge, select a subject in the 350/460 Series. These guys were printed with as many as 24 different backs.
Here is my near-complete Chase sub-set.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1stT206Chaseblue50x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/1stT206Chaseblue50xb.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/achasep460fac42.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/ChaseEPdGP350P3x4Sov350Sov460.jpg
. . . . . . . . . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChaseP460factory42b.jpg . . . . . . . . . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/ChaseEPdGP350P3x4Sov350Sov460b.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/ChaseSC3x4F30xF42x42ovPBxTol.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/ChaseSweetCap350Fac30.jpg
.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/ChaseSC3x4F30xF42x42ovPBxTolB.jpg
Fac. #30..................Fac. #42 ................Fac. #42
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/ChaseRedHINDUx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/ChaseRedHINDUx50b.jpg
A - B - C - C - D connection
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/T206ChaseQuintuplcate75x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/ChaseABxBLxCOxCYx25.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/T206DRUMx50bx.jpg
Since 1981 (when I initially start my blue Chase run), I have never seen this T206 with a DRUM back. There are 1000's of T206 collectors in the hobby.
It is estimated that there are approx. 2,000,000 - T206's in circulation, so what is the probability that at least one blue Chase DRUM exists ? ?
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BlueChaseLENOX.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/BlueChaseLENOXb.jpg
I acquired this very rare LENOX Chase from a Net54 member in a trade. I've had it for many years. Recently, I traded it to Chris Browne for a red HINDU card.
Show-n-Tell us of your T206 Run(s).
TED Z
.
tedzan
09-20-2017, 07:01 PM
And, my Chase "obsession" expands into the subsequent White-Bordered cards (T213-2, T213-3, T214, T215).
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1914COUPONChaseBuffalo50x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/T213x2x3blueChase50.jpg
. . . . . . . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/ChaseBuffaloT213x25b.jpg . . . . . . . . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/T213x2x3blueChase50b.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/avictorychase.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/bvictorychase.jpg
(reprint)
TED Z
.
What a coincidence: just yesterday Jaime asked me to post my Merkle run, and now Ted wants a back run post. So here goes...
The Lenox Brown is one of one;
The Coupon Type-3 Factory 8 overprint is not in the pop reports, so perhaps one of one;
The Pirate is one of two. The other is owned by Richard Masson in his Pirate master set;
The first one that I got was the Uzit on eBay in 2004. The bid was $1,000, so I bid the minimum increase, $1,025. I couldn't believe no one topped my bid. It was a raw card at the time. It was also my first truly rare back.
I bought the Piedmont on eBay when I decided to do a back run. It was a poor card from a poor scan. When it arrived I found that it was a Factory 42. :eek:
I am missing only a T215 Red Cross, so if anyone knows of one......:)
288373 288374
Kawika
09-20-2017, 08:12 PM
Tremendous run, Sean. Merkle Throwing is one of my favorite T206 poses; he makes playing first base look easy.
https://photos.imageevent.com/kawika_o_ka_pakipika/sportscardsetc/baseball/t3turkeyreds/TR108%20Merkle.jpg
Thanks David. I'm so glad that you posted. I had forgotten that I have one of those as well:
288390
tedzan
09-21-2017, 07:01 PM
Hey Sean
Great Merkle display......thanks for posting them.
I counted 14 different T206 backs for your Merkle run. This appears to me to be Merkle's complete T206 run......Yes or No ?
TED Z
.
I counted 14 different T206 backs for your Merkle run. This appears to me to be Merkle's complete T206 run......Yes or No ?
TED Z
.
YES. We've talked about the EPDG being possible, but I don't believe that Merkle was produced with this back.
I am missing the Red Cross Merkle, but that's a Type-2, so not a T206.
tedzan
09-21-2017, 08:01 PM
YES. We've talked about the EPDG being possible, but I don't believe that Merkle was produced with this back.
I am missing the Red Cross Merkle, but that's a Type-2, so not a T206.
Hey Sean
This 460-only series Merkle is an EPDG No-Print. My research indicates that EPDG and PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 are Mutually-Exclusive backs in the 460-only series cards.
And, you have the PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 Merkle.
TED Z
.
So I never have to worry about an EPDG showing up. :)
tedzan
09-21-2017, 09:01 PM
So I never have to worry about an EPDG showing up. :)
Sean
Listed here are the 9 subjects in the 460-only series printed with PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 backs. My theory (which has stood
the test of time) is PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 and El PRINCIPE de GALES cards are Mutually-Exclusive in the 460-only series.
So, I guarantee you that you need not search for a Merkle with an EPDG back.
460-only Series......9 subjects with PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 backs (COMPLETE).
None of these are found with EPDG backs.
460-only series PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42......9 subjects (COMPLETE)
Chase (Trophy)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)
Conversely
460-only series El Principe de Gales................37 subjects (COMPLETE)
Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bergen (catching)
Bescher (hands over head)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (hands over head)
Camnitz (arm at side)
Chance (bat)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Duffy
Larry Doyle (portrait)
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hand on waist)
Hummel
Lake, St. Louis (ball)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (batting)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schulte (back view)
Sheckard (glove)
Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wheat
TED Z
.
tedzan
10-08-2017, 04:42 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Ex12UzitHinduAB460x13.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Ex12Cy460xEPDGxOMx13.jpg
Pictured here are the 6 toughest backs that were printed on the Exclusive 12 cards
OK, here is my complete run of the McGraw (glove) cards. Exactly 13 - T206 backs were printed on each of the Exclusive 12 subjects in the 460-only series.
I'm attempting to complete the run on all the Exclusive 12 subjects (12 x 13 backs = 156 cards).
Only UZIT known with this McGraw
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/McGrawGloveUZITxSGC30.jpg. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/McGrawRedHINDUsgc.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/McGrawGloveSweetCapFactory30xx12.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/McGrawGloveUZITxb.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/McGrawRedHINDUsgcB.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/McGrawSC42xSC42optSOVxPd4xPBxx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/McGrawSC42xSC42optSOVxPd4xPB.jpg
Factory #42...................Factory #42
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/McGrawEPDGxTOLxAB460xOM.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/McGrawEPDGxTOLxAB460xOMb.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McGrawCYCLE460x18.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/McGrawCYCLE460x18b.jpg
OK guys, let's try this one more time. Show-n-Tell us of your T206 back Runs.
TED Z
.
greco827
10-10-2017, 02:43 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
The El Principe de Gales (EPDG) brand dates back to 1850's. Its founder, Vicente Martínez Ybor, started producing Cigars in Havana, Cuba. In 1869, he fled from Cuba
to Key West, Florida where he continued manufacturing EPDG cigars. In 1885, he moved to Tampa, FL where he built a larger factory which produced his EPDG cigars.
Note that the EPDG cigarettes were manufactured at Factory #17 in Virginia. If any one on this forum knows where this Factory was located, please chime in....Thanx.
TED Z
.
Ted,
I did a bit of research, and am fairly confident that Factory 17 was in Richmond, VA, on "Tobacco Row". In an article written Sep 12, 1908, in Tobacco Leaf, Volume 45, Page 32, it mentions this:
"The Federal Cigar Co's plant, which recently closed down several weeks ago, has resumed work. This plant was formerly known as the Whitlock branch of the American Cigar Co. Here Beaux Arts, a little cigar, are made as well as El Principe cigarettes and other brands."
El Principe De Gales is also mentioned by name in full, a bit earlier in the article.
I have not yet found anything which specifically says that the P. Whitlock Branch of ATC is Factory 17, just that the branch was in Richmond and produced EDPG.
greco827
10-10-2017, 02:49 PM
Ted,
Update on the previous .... I did find, on cigarhistory.com, mentions of The P. Whitlock Branch and it being Factory 17. It mentions that OVC, another tobacco brand, all carried a Fact. 17, 2nd Dist. VA" designation until 1920, when it then changed to read "Fact. 17, VA."
tedzan
10-10-2017, 06:21 PM
Jason
I really appreciate your information regarding Factory #17.
Thanks much,
TED Z
.
tedzan
10-11-2017, 06:28 PM
OK, let's try this T206 " Run Fun " one more once.
Here is an incomplete run of my favorite Cobb. I have no expectations of completing this run. But, I just enjoy the thrill of the hunt.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/CobbBatOffAB460x50.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/AB460JenningsHand50xbx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/COBBbatoffOLDMILLx50_1.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/CobbbatOLDMILLb25x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/COBBbatPIEDMONT460x50xx.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/COBBbatP460x25b_1.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/SOVEREIGN350TyCobb50x.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/SOVEREIGN350TyCobb50xbx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/acobbsweetcap42ovpt.jpg
TED Z
.
tedzan
10-18-2017, 08:50 PM
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Ex12UzitHinduAB460x13.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/americanlithographicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/Ex12Cy460xEPDGxOMx13.jpg
Pictured here are the 6 toughest backs that were printed on the Exclusive 12 cards
And here's my Russ Ford back run from the Exclusive 12 group with a bit of trivia included......
Ford holds a pitching record that I'm quite certain has never been equalled. Most games WON in his rookie season (26-6) in 1910.
Furthermore, a total of 48 games won in his first two seasons.
OK, I need UZIT and EPDG to complete this 13-card run.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/Ex12FordRHx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/Ex12FordRHx50b.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/FordABxCYxPDxSovSCxOMxTolx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/large/FordABxCYxPDxSovSCxOMxTol.jpg
Factory #42
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/FordSC42ovptPBx25.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/FordSC42ovptPBx25b.jpg
Factory #42
Factory #30
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/FordSCfactory30.jpg
TED Z
.
Rhotchkiss
10-22-2017, 11:06 AM
After finally locating the SC 360,25, I am now one back (AB 460) from completing a T206 back run of the Tinker Bat Off pose (I threw in a few T213s for good measure). It all started when i picked the Uzit up at auction and went from there. Thanks to Adam (who got me the Pied Fact 42 (real rare!!), Zach (who helped me with both this and my Evers Yellow Sky run), Mac (who sold me the SC 350, 25 -- surprisingly very tough to find), and Michael, Derek, Sean and many other Net54 members who have kept eyes out for me.
Now, who has my T206 Tinker Bat off AB 460???!!!!
Ronnie73
10-22-2017, 12:41 PM
After finally locating the SC 360,25, I am now one back (AB 460) from completing a T206 back run of the Tinker Bat Off pose (I threw in a few T213s for good measure). It all started when i picked the Uzit up at auction and went from there. Thanks to Adam (who got me the Pied Fact 42 (real rare!!), Zach (who helped me with both this and my Evers Yellow Sky run), Mac (who sold me the SC 350, 25 -- surprisingly very tough to find), and Michael, Derek, Sean and many other Net54 members who have kept eyes out for me.
Now, who has my T206 Tinker Bat off AB 460???!!!!
Hey Ryan, They look great all grouped together. I'm still looking for a couple AB460's. One for each of us.
Pat R
10-22-2017, 01:30 PM
After finally locating the SC 360,25, I am now one back (AB 460) from completing a T206 back run of the Tinker Bat Off pose (I threw in a few T213s for good measure). It all started when i picked the Uzit up at auction and went from there. Thanks to Adam (who got me the Pied Fact 42 (real rare!!), Zach (who helped me with both this and my Evers Yellow Sky run), Mac (who sold me the SC 350, 25 -- surprisingly very tough to find), and Michael, Derek, Sean and many other Net54 members who have kept eyes out for me.
Now, who has my T206 Tinker Bat off AB 460???!!!!
Congratulation on the SC350/25 and good luck with the AB460.
Do you have or are you going after one of the factory 30 scraps?
these are not my cards
292011
292012